Ghosting during the job hunt

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Omnivore76

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Hi everyone.

I’m just curious about how common ghosting is during the hunt for jobs. It has happened to me a couple of times and has been very frustrating because up until I got ghosted I got what I interpreted as pretty positive vibes.

So, how often has this happened for you? How often did you follow up before resigning to getting ghosted? And what other job hunt stories do you want to vent to the web so that the people grappling with this terrible market can keep things in perspective? Hi
 
I’ll be real! It was common and incredibly frustrating. Some people will assure you that you are strongly being considered and will be hearing from them to go for a visit and disappear into thin air. It happened more than a few times and it bothers me to this day.

another thing that happens too is some people do not even respond to you
 
Hi everyone.

I’m just curious about how common ghosting is during the hunt for jobs. It has happened to me a couple of times and has been very frustrating because up until I got ghosted I got what I interpreted as pretty positive vibes.

So, how often has this happened for you? How often did you follow up before resigning to getting ghosted? And what other job hunt stories do you want to vent to the web so that the people grappling with this terrible market can keep things in perspective? Hi

Not just you. Happened to me as well.

never feels good
 
Yes! I specifically was thinking of an instance where I was told that they would love to meet me, talked about all the things they wanted to show me, praised me up and down... and then never responded to my two follow up emails.

How often did y’all follow up with people? I’m not thinking of sending a third followup as I can take a hint, but I am curious about how others respond to this.
 
I know someone who had a second look somewhere then totally got ghosted.

i followed up maybe a few times but then just stopped moving forward and realized that is how the game was played
 
Yes! I specifically was thinking of an instance where I was told that they would love to meet me, talked about all the things they wanted to show me, praised me up and down... and then never responded to my two follow up emails.

How often did y’all follow up with people? I’m not thinking of sending a third followup as I can take a hint, but I am curious about how others respond to this.

no wrong answer.

2-4 weeks is decent interval based on your personal preference

after 2-3 no responses just let it go
 
I had this happen to me from two PP out of maybe 6-7 places I’ve spoked about.
 
Been ghosted several times after conference or in person interviews. Networking really sucks. I'm not exaggerating when I write that over the years I've applied to at least 100 jobs. 90% of the time I just hear nothing back at all. The worst are these academic places that require some specific essay (UCs diversity essay) or letters of recommendation to even apply (some big name northeast places).

Other fun variations on rejection for me include: favorable ASTRO interview and emails followed by generic rejection email with my (fairly simple) name misspelled.

Being sent an on-site interview invite followed a few weeks later by a generic rejection email not even addressed to me. Multiple attempts to follow up finally result in a more firm personalized rejection with no explanation or apology. Residency vice chair with strong ties to that program refuses to call on my behalf.

At conferences they like to say "oh I'm busy right now we'll catch up later" every time you see them, but then they actively avoid you like a game of cat and mouse, never actually make time for you or respond to texts or emails.

Rejection reason given: you live in the central part of the state. We're looking for someone with ties to the northern part of the state (they did find such a person).

You know what, maybe I smell funny...

I've had two different big name academic guys at two different institutions initially sweet talk me about a position but later reject me. They then turn around a few years later when we work on stuff academically and tell me they have no idea who I am. Come to learn these guys do this kind of stuff all the time.

I got my current job by emailing the chair five times and running into him at conferences twice. After initially being told they're not hiring (I've been told this and have it not be true by multiple places), when I ran into the chair at a conference he mentioned "oh we're done interviewing but maybe we could add you on last to the schedule." Persistence pays off! Offer was non-negotiable, of course.

This is life as a recently graduated rad onc. I didn't get my region of interest (ghosted or rejected from every job within 100 miles of target not big name city), but I was super happy to be employed at full 25th percentile asst prof rad onc salary!
 
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From the other side of the table, it's not incredibly uncommon to get ghosted by applicants either.

A few each cycle interview and then just never respond to communications.

From either side, I view it as a stall tactic while other interviews are ongoing or either party is too busy elsewhere to care enough to type out a 3 sentence email. Either way, it's a tacit acknowledgement that "they just aren't that in to you."
 
Hi everyone.

I’m just curious about how common ghosting is during the hunt for jobs. It has happened to me a couple of times and has been very frustrating because up until I got ghosted I got what I interpreted as pretty positive vibes.

So, how often has this happened for you? How often did you follow up before resigning to getting ghosted? And what other job hunt stories do you want to vent to the web so that the people grappling with this terrible market can keep things in perspective? Hi
From the other side of the table, it's not incredibly uncommon to get ghosted by applicants either.

A few each cycle interview and then just never respond to communications.

From either side, I view it as a stall tactic while other interviews are ongoing or either party is too busy elsewhere to care enough to type out a 3 sentence email. Either way, it's a tacit acknowledgement that "they just aren't that in to you."

I didn't go through med school and residency to win a lottery ticket. I went through to get a meal ticket! Every other grad from residencies in all the other top specialties get TOO MANY job offers and have to turn into Casey Affleck after the car accident! Recruiter after recruiter calling with $500K+ job offers and the senior residents/fellows are all" new phone who dis." Not in rad onc. This is what people in the ivory tower can't even come close to understanding right now, and none of the silly supercilious citing of satisfaction surveys captures either. When it's claimed that 80% or whatever of recent rad onc grads are happy with the job they landed, no one mentions the Andy Dufresne levels of excrement they had to crawl through to come out clean on the other side. Choose wisely! Preserve your mental health. Think of other career paths besides rad onc, med students.
 
Been ghosted several times here after conference or in person interviews. Networking really sucks. I'm not exaggerating when I write that over the years I've applied to at least 100 jobs. 90% of the time I just hear nothing back at all. The worst are these academic places that require some specific essay (UCs diversity essay) or letters of recommendation to even apply (some big name northeast places).

Other fun variations on rejection for me include: favorable ASTRO interview and emails followed by generic rejection email with my (fairly simple) name misspelled.

Being sent an on-site interview invite followed a few weeks later by a generic rejection email not even addressed to me. Multiple attempts to follow up finally result in a more firm personalized rejection with no explanation or apology. Residency vice chair with strong ties to that program refuses to call on my behalf.

At conferences they like to say "oh I'm busy right now we'll catch up later" every time you see them, but then they actively avoid you like a game of cat and mouse, never actually make time for you or respond to texts or emails.

Rejection reason given: you live in the central part of the state. We're looking for someone with ties to the northern part of the state (which they found).

You know what, maybe I smell funny...

I've had two different big name academic guys at two different institutions initially sweet talk me about a position but later reject me. They then turn around a few years later when we work on stuff academically and tell me they have no idea who I am. Come to learn these guys do this kind of stuff all the time.

I got my current job by emailing the chair five times and running into him at conferences twice. After initially being told they're not hiring (I've been told this and have it not be true by multiple places), when I ran into the chair at a conference he mentioned "oh we're done interviewing but maybe we could add you on last to the schedule." Persistence pays off! Offer was non-negotiable, of course.

This is life as a recently graduated rad onc. I didn't get my region of interest (ghosted or rejected from every job within 100 miles of target not big name city), but I was super happy to be employed at full 25th percentile asst prof rad onc salary!

this is funny and sad...I just cannot imagine how undignifying it would be to be in this position...I had a similar experience with an academic center where I trained which was in the podunk. I remember begging them for a job because my spouse at the time was in training there and they would ghost me or string me alone etc. I actually hated the area but had to stay due to family. When the marriage didn’t work out I immediately jumped back to NYC and been much happier since. I still talk to staff in that center sometimes and sometimes take perverse pleasure because one of the staff wanted to be in NYC real bad but couldnt get a job there.

I think IR is a more normal labor market. It’s not crazy hot like medonc or general urology and it’s not super weak like path or nuc med.

My experience is that I had to look at the job board and cold email a few places that were looking. One of the academic practice was stringing me along hard but has a reputation for doing so and we never formally interviewed. The local PP invited me out and gave me a partnership offer with equity buy in probably a month or two after residency but my heart was on academia and since I had a plan to relocate to a more popular coastal region I didnt want to take that one.

So I tabled that job offer for about 5-7 months or so and let them know I needed time to decide and they are understanding about it. I then signed an academic job and was able to negotiate my salary up another 25k and I told the PP job i couldn’t go there. Since the PP job have buy in and lower starting salary compared to the academic job over around 1-3 years which was how long I wanted to stay the academic job actually would have paid more.

About two years into my academic job the IR market opened up more, not as in I have recruiters calling (I never did) but more like super hot region like NYC actually have opening in our job board. I applied to two of those jobs. One I interviewed, realized it was a good deal and immediately signed without negotiation and I got a nice raise from my first job. Another job I was about to fly in for an onsite interview that I cancelled.

Somewhere in the middle I also interviewed for a really **** job that looked good on paper. Those guys wanted reference pretty early in the game so I just told them no because I didn’t want to trouble my references for a job that I wasnt gonna take. I still never found out how much that job would take but it was almost like two FTE rolled into one.
 
80% of the jobs I applied to I heard nothing back.
20% I had an initial conversation with discussions for eventual zoom and/or on-site interviews.
Of that 20%, 14% ghosted me despite me e-mailing a few times.
another 4% I strung along until I had a better off in hand, and then rejected.
The final 2% is where I currently am.
 
1+,

I think a lot of prospective employers (private and academic) behave like Home Depot or Walmart.
When one applies for a job at Home Depot, well you know the rest "no news is bad news".

But a PGY5 or current attending looking for work is different. These are professionals with at least 13 yrs of higher education. The prospective employers need to treat them better.

I call everyone, yes a personal phone call, even though I cannot offer a position.
Also, I establish a personal connection with that person, whom you may meet later at ASTRO etc.
It. Is. Called. Professional. Courtesy.

To me, professional courtesy is important, but it is lacking these days...
How many Chairs do you guys/girls really have respect for as a truly good human being?
You can count on your fingers...
 
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1+,

I think a lot of prospective employers (private and academic) behave like Home Depot or Walmart.
When one applies for a job at Home Depot, well you know the rest "no news is bad news".

But a PGY5 or current attending looking for work is different. These are professionals with at least 13 yrs of higher education. The prospective employers need to treat them better.

I call everyone, yes a personal phone call, even though I cannot offer a position.
Also, I establish a personal connection with that person, whom you may meet later at ASTRO etc.
It. Is. Called. Professional. Courtesy.

To me, professional courtesy is important, but it is lacking these days...
How many Chairs do you guys/girls really have respect for as a truly good human being?
You can count on your fingers...
People appreciate folks like you. One of the big name in my field took me out for dinner even though he couldn’t offer me a job (full group) and shared his story.
 
My favorite was rejection via straight-to-voicemail, no dial message from the Chair (she must have used Slydial or similar)
 
Oh yeah, definitely got ghosted after good vibes.

It's why I get frustrated when all these job market naysayers use "number of interviews" an applicant gets as some sort of positive metric. It costs prospective employers almost nothing, just a small chunk of time, to interview someone at ASTRO or via Zoom etc (site interviews are different, but sometimes not by much). It's a seller's market and they can play the field.

I just tried to shrug it off. Doing the RadOnc Job Hunt Crucible, I basically kept thinking about the saying "a quarterback needs to have a short term memory, forget about the last failed play and move on to the next one". It keeps you sane.
 
So I’m currently trying to make contacts/network. I’ve emailed some private groups in the region around my residency. So far, 1 has shown interest, 1 replied said no, the other 3 never responded at all. How normal is it for ppl to not even respond at all?
 
So I’m currently trying to make contacts/network. I’ve emailed some private groups in the region around my residency. So far, 1 has shown interest, 1 replied said no, the other 3 never responded at all. How normal is it for ppl to not even respond at all?
very normal. just like non-medicine jobs. we are just delayed in getting that feeling compared to our peers.

keep looking.
 
we are probably the only medical speciality that has a post like this...on the forum of other specialties, it is usually "got 3 offers..which one should I pick?"
Well, we can't forget our siblings in Pathology and Nuclear Medicine.

very normal. just like non-medicine jobs. we are just delayed in getting that feeling compared to our peers.

keep looking.
Do you have a lot of friends who spent 13+ years in training while going $300,000+ in debt to end up hustling like they're trying to score an acting gig in a Spielberg movie?

This such a blatant false equivalence that I don't understand how anyone can try to seriously use that argument. The barriers to entry to practice as a specialty-trained physician in America are so high that you shouldn't need to rely on some underground network of secret jobs to start your career. Trying to score a software engineering gig at a FANG company with a bachelors in Computer Science at age 22 is not the same as trying to get a job practicing Radiation Oncology at age 30.

The majority of specialties do not face such an issue with jobs. The ones that do, do so because of a supply/demand imbalance.
 
Well, we can't forget our siblings in Pathology and Nuclear Medicine.


Do you have a lot of friends who spent 13+ years in training while going $300,000+ in debt to end up hustling like they're trying to score an acting gig in a Spielberg movie?

This such a blatant false equivalence that I don't understand how anyone can try to seriously use that argument. The barriers to entry to practice as a specialty-trained physician in America are so high that you shouldn't need to rely on some underground network of secret jobs to start your career. Trying to score a software engineering gig at a FANG company with a bachelors in Computer Science at age 22 is not the same as trying to get a job practicing Radiation Oncology at age 30.

The majority of specialties do not face such an issue with jobs. The ones that do, do so because of a supply/demand imbalance.

.....yeah that's not what i said or implied at all.

did you train at michigan with dan spratt or something?


but it is absolutely true that getting ghosted is part of the job hunt process. certainly in rad onc *what I said* but also in many non-medicine fields. sorry you do not know this. im not saying anything about debt or the time we spent, or it being justified or anything.
 
It’d be nice if they just responded with “thanks for your interest but not hiring at this moment” versus just being ghosted.

Also, my friend is looking for psychiatry jobs and he has physicians blowing up his phone. Rad onc blows. You literally have to get on your knees and beg to find a good job.
 
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It’d be nice if they just responded with “thanks for your interest but not hiring at this moment” versus just being ghosted.

Also, my friend is looking for psychiatry jobs and he has physicians blowing up his phone. Rad onc blows.
The sad thing is, I know practices which are willing to take a financial hit to scoop up the last of the ultra-competitive classes this year, giving the market a transient boost. I anticipate academic leadership playing this up during residency interviews over the next few months. It will be convenient timing, because if things stay on track, APM hits in January when the bulk of interviews should be completed.

But yeah, it was obnoxious watching my non-RadOnc physician friends who finished residency at the same time as me look for jobs. What show-offs, with their single board exam and their returned phone calls!
 
The sad thing is, I know practices which are willing to take a financial hit to scoop up the last of the ultra-competitive classes this year, giving the market a transient boost. I anticipate academic leadership playing this up during residency interviews over the next few months. It will be convenient timing, because if things stay on track, APM hits in January when the bulk of interviews should be completed.

But yeah, it was obnoxious watching my non-RadOnc physician friends who finished residency at the same time as me look for jobs. What show-offs, with their single board exam and their returned phone calls!
The last ultra-competitive class was those who matched in 2018 (class of 2023) 😉. So tell those practices there’s still two good classes left. There was a huge drop starting with those who matched in 2019.
 
It’d be nice if they just responded with “thanks for your interest but not hiring at this moment” versus just being ghosted.

Also, my friend is looking for psychiatry jobs and he has physicians blowing up his phone. Rad onc blows.
Good luck. It sucks and it does feel bad. You realize at this juncture that you made a decision that will cost you something significant (proximity to family, academic ambition, professional independence). You have peers in non-radonc fields who are carefully considering multiple options, when you are looking for one.

I am guilty of ghosting (mostly upfront just not replying) and will try to do better. FWIW, I was ghosted by a chair at the only place I really wanted a job (back when job situation was better than for you but worse than for my predecessors). Had on-site interview that went well. Chair was effusive during visit but I was initiating all contact after. He never let me know that they had hired someone else (who admittedly I would have hired in my place 100/100 times) and left it to me to figure out that I was not going to be hired. If you are not getting prompt replies, it's pretty much time to move on (but don't burn bridges, sometimes you're plan C and plan C is what they get).
 
The sad thing is, I know practices which are willing to take a financial hit to scoop up the last of the ultra-competitive classes this year, giving the market a transient boost. I anticipate academic leadership playing this up during residency interviews over the next few months. It will be convenient timing, because if things stay on track, APM hits in January when the bulk of interviews should be completed.

But yeah, it was obnoxious watching my non-RadOnc physician friends who finished residency at the same time as me look for jobs. What show-offs, with their single board exam and their returned phone calls!
Contrast the below with ARRO data that says the average rad onc resident gets two job offers. "Two is very close to zero on the number line" is a worry.

lGbOQat.png
 
It really bothers me when people don’t respond.

When I was with ARM in Maryland and took over the recruiting last few years in the practice, I never once even ignored an applicant. I wrote back to every single one of them. At Banner, when I got emails, I responded and sent them to my chief. Here, I always reply back. A few people have even set up visits (I don’t have a job open at moment) to meet. Its really just the kind and decent thing to do. If I’ve ever not replied, just send another note. I’ll get to you!

As someone that has switched twice and interviewed dozens of places, I’ve had so many people ghost me or not respond. Someone at INOVA canceled a meeting on the day of and never rescheduled, I will never forget that. But, there have been so many fantastic people I’ve met along the way. I hope the new folks in charge are better than those in the past.
 
It really bothers me when people don’t respond.

When I was with ARM in Maryland and took over the recruiting last few years in the practice, I never once even ignored an applicant. I wrote back to every single one of them. At Banner, when I got emails, I responded and sent them to my chief. Here, I always reply back.
Ditto. I've never posted a job, and based on the number of unsolicited emails/communications I've received over the years, likely will never to do when we do end up hiring.

The right thing to do is drop a quick note and let them know you aren't hiring for now, but @communitydoc13 nailed it well, never a good idea to burn bridges on either side. As I've said before, a lot of this is timing and connections. It's how i fell into my current practice when things were more open a decade ago and it sucks, but unfortunately it is what it is. I happened to be in the right place at the right time and had the right connection.

When someone leaves/has a medical issue or a new practice comes online in a group, the need can be pretty immediate and it's a good thing to keep in touch and be transparent for that reason ("Hey we're not hiring now but xyz might retire next year or we may be opening/staffing ABC location next fall/summer etc")
 
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Contrast the below with ARRO data that says the average rad onc resident gets two job offers. "Two is very close to zero on the number line" is a worry.

lGbOQat.png
What is this witchcraft?

"Only 62% said they received 26 or more job solicitations, compare to 82% in 2019".

What?!?!? I don't remember receiving any "job solicitations". Well, that's not fair I guess - I signed up for literally every recruiter mailing list I could find, and got those automated emails we post on SDN every now and again. Do those count? Between Weatherby and the Mignon Young emails, I guess I could say I got two solicitations?

Now that I'm thinking about this, I got a postcard from a recruiter about a rural Texas job. At least, I think it was Texas, the postcard wasn't clear. But it was the only thing like that which I received, and I saved it "just in case". I still have it. So...three generic job solicitations?

My favorite was when headhunters for physician recruiting companies called me, because they had my name somewhere on a list which said I was finishing residency. However, I think that's all the information they had. I would actually take their call virtually every time, and go through their entire process. Their excitement palpably dwindled when I told them I was in Radiation Oncology. I never heard from most of them ever again. To this day, however, I'll get a call about the Kearney, Nebraska job. Everyone who has worked, is working, or will work in this specialty knows that Kearney is hiring.

Someone at INOVA canceled a meeting on the day of and never rescheduled, I will never forget that.
Well to be fair, they probably had called an urgent meeting with their accountants, because they realized opening a proton center in March 2020 wasn't the best timing, especially when protons were then subsequently declared to be "in" the APM. That, and your blood doesn't bleed blue when you get a papercut.
 
Now that I'm thinking about this, I got a postcard from a recruiter about a rural Texas job. At least, I think it was Texas, the postcard wasn't clear. But it was the only thing like that which I received, and I saved it "just in case". I still have it. So...three generic job solicitations?
Ha, I got that same post card too!
 
What is this witchcraft?

"Only 62% said they received 26 or more job solicitations, compare to 82% in 2019".

What?!?!? I don't remember receiving any "job solicitations". Well, that's not fair I guess - I signed up for literally every recruiter mailing list I could find, and got those automated emails we post on SDN every now and again. Do those count? Between Weatherby and the Mignon Young emails, I guess I could say I got two solicitations?

Now that I'm thinking about this, I got a postcard from a recruiter about a rural Texas job. At least, I think it was Texas, the postcard wasn't clear. But it was the only thing like that which I received, and I saved it "just in case". I still have it. So...three generic job solicitations?

My favorite was when headhunters for physician recruiting companies called me, because they had my name somewhere on a list which said I was finishing residency. However, I think that's all the information they had. I would actually take their call virtually every time, and go through their entire process. Their excitement palpably dwindled when I told them I was in Radiation Oncology. I never heard from most of them ever again. To this day, however, I'll get a call about the Kearney, Nebraska job. Everyone who has worked, is working, or will work in this specialty knows that Kearney is hiring.


Well to be fair, they probably had called an urgent meeting with their accountants, because they realized opening a proton center in March 2020 wasn't the best timing, especially when protons were then subsequently declared to be "in" the APM. That, and your blood doesn't bleed blue when you get a papercut.
Median radonc resident receives 0 unsolicited offers. Head of Inovo radonc told one of my patients they needed protons for single level lumbar met treatment because she was on keytruda.
 
Would you prefer to be emailed or to be called via phone from an interested resident? Which approach is better?
 
Median radonc resident receives 0 unsolicited offers. Head of Inovo radonc told one of my patients they needed protons for single level lumbar met treatment because she was on keytruda.
So they doing 8x1 MFO then bring pt back get the reirradiation special procedure charge and give more?
 
Median radonc resident receives 0 unsolicited offers. Head of Inovo radonc told one of my patients they needed protons for single level lumbar met treatment because she was on keytruda.
A RadOnc resident receiving an unsolicited OFFER would be literally unbelievable to me. I've seen and heard of a lot of things, but never that.
 
It depends how you define job solicitation really. If you include mailed glossy postcards touting an opportunity “in a great college town” and that you can “enjoy four seasons in the Ozarks” and that a position affords “plenty of opportunities for hunting, camping, fishing and hiking” then I get several solicitations a year.

If you also toss in the weekly emails from headhunting/locums companies touting new opportunities in Nebraska and West Virginia then I get a few dozen solicitations per year.
 
A RadOnc resident receiving an unsolicited OFFER would be literally unbelievable to me. I've seen and heard of a lot of things, but never that.

This would happen with super rural hospital based jobs in the geographic area were I trained until about 2014 or 2015. Meaning HR from the hiring hospital would physically stop by the hospital and talk with the graduating residents from all the various specialties but make a point of seeking out the rad oncs for a 1 to 1 and inviting all the residents to a dinner/bar thing in the evening. But alas no more.
 
It depends how you define job solicitation really. If you include mailed glossy postcards touting an opportunity “in a great college town” and that you can “enjoy four seasons in the Ozarks” and that a position affords “plenty of opportunities for hunting, camping, fishing and hiking” then I get several solicitations a year.

If you also toss in the weekly emails from headhunting/locums companies touting new opportunities in Nebraska and West Virginia then I get a few dozen solicitations per year.
I define it as someone verbally asking me if i would like a job or in the case of residency- going through the program director.
 
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