Ghosting during the job hunt

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It’s crazy how this is what’s become of recruiting in Rad Onc. In another life, I was a comp sci/software person and just about all of my friends in tech are getting multiple offers and being the ones ghosting jobs. Heck, some people are accepting two jobs for remote work and not telling the other employer about it. Most of them make at least as much as most rad oncs do now, and then a lot more at senior levels.
 
Gfunk6 said:
It depends how you define job solicitation really. If you include mailed glossy postcards touting an opportunity “in a great college town” and that you can “enjoy four seasons in the Ozarks” and that a position affords “plenty of opportunities for hunting, camping, fishing and hiking” then I get several solicitations a year.

If you also toss in the weekly emails from headhunting/locums companies touting new opportunities in Nebraska and West Virginia then I get a few dozen solicitations per year.
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Same. The day rural Minnesota stops emailing me is the day the field is irrevocably finished
 
Ghosting doesn't bother me because hey, if they really wanted me, they would let me know pretty quickly. And I want to go somewhere that wants me, not somewhere that's lukewarm on me.

The job offers I've received, they told me within the week (my current job, which really wanted me, told me on the same day after my interview). If I don't hear from them within a couple weeks or whatever timeframe they give me, then I move on and forget them.
 
qxrt said:
And I want to go somewhere that wants me, not somewhere that's lukewarm on me.

The job offers I've received, they told me within the week (my current job, which really wanted me, told me on the same day after my interview). If I don't hear from them within a couple weeks or whatever timeframe they give me, then I move on and forget them.
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This is not how it works in rad onc. You are lucky to get a job offer or two after significant begging. You're relating a radiology experience that does not apply.
 
qxrt said:
Ghosting doesn't bother me because hey, if they really wanted me, they would let me know pretty quickly. And I want to go somewhere that wants me, not somewhere that's lukewarm on me.

The job offers I've received, they told me within the week (my current job, which really wanted me, told me on the same day after my interview). If I don't hear from them within a couple weeks or whatever timeframe they give me, then I move on and forget them.
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Key word above for rad onc is "somewhere"
 
qxrt said:
Ghosting doesn't bother me because hey, if they really wanted me, they would let me know pretty quickly. And I want to go somewhere that wants me, not somewhere that's lukewarm on me.

The job offers I've received, they told me within the week (my current job, which really wanted me, told me on the same day after my interview). If I don't hear from them within a couple weeks or whatever timeframe they give me, then I move on and forget them.
Click to expand...
In rad onc we are mostly in “a job” or “any job” territory. Like a real estate agent in Las Vegas circa 2009.
 
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RTOGsaveRadonc said:
Lmao. As a hospitalist friends get to pick any location they want, make 250K at least, while 2 weeks on 2 off. More if they add in some PRN shifts.


Has their ever been a speciality that has turn to such ****? The most technically demanding with the most board exams
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Urology and ent are writing their ticket in many places. Rads market has improved significantly in the last several years
 
RTOGsaveRadonc said:
Lmao. As a hospitalist friends get to pick any location they want, make 250K at least, while 2 weeks on 2 off. More if they add in some PRN shifts.


Has their ever been a speciality that has turn to such ****? The most technically demanding with the most board exams
Click to expand...
I have seen some of the early offers new grads have dug out of the barrel this year, and a couple of them had starting salaries ~$270k.

I remember the days, long long ago (*cough* 10 years *cough*) when RadOnc and Hospitalist salaries were not within a margin of error of each other. Now, the starting salary for RadOnc has remained virtually unchanged in that time, which, when considering inflation, is not a favorable prognostic marker!

Someone should publish a Job Market Nomogram, maybe then the leadership could get on the same page with us.
 
elementaryschooleconomics said:
I have seen some of the early offers new grads have dug out of the barrel this year, and a couple of them had starting salaries ~$270k.

I remember the days, long long ago (*cough* 10 years *cough*) when RadOnc and Hospitalist salaries were not within a margin of error of each other. Now, the starting salary for RadOnc has remained virtually unchanged in that time, which, when considering inflation, is not a favorable prognostic marker!

Someone should publish a Job Market Nomogram, maybe then the leadership could get on the same page with us.
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We must keep in mind that over the last ten years programs have been producing more and more grads who hypofractionate more and more; this is supported by hard data that the average fractions per patient have declined about 30% the last ten years. That first sentence can be translated to read “we have been producing grads who collect less and less money.” Economically, we really couldn’t have expected rising salaries. It’s fortuitous they’ve been stable. The cost of radiation has been declining faster than COLA could have been rising. Once the race to the (fractionation) bottom is over salaries can/might rise again. The race is not over.
 
Large midwest "pretigious" academic program here: two changes happening at our site:

We posted for 2 jobs, we had over 70 applications for them. We therefore changed one of these jobs to an "instructor" where the pay is 125K with no gurantee of increase; when I mentioned my concern in the staff meeting, I was told this was a generous salary for an instructor. (Maybe others can comment on this "clinical instructor" situation, its a first for me)

Our starting salary for the main facility used to be 300K; our chair has decided to decrease this to 275K this year due to 70+ applications (no word yet on the pay cut to the satellites, I signed on for 280K starting so I'd imagine it will be 250K now)
 
fiji128 said:
Honestly who is taking a full time "instructor" job for $125K? The dosimetrists, head therapist and office mangers are probably pulling in more then that.
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Perfect for FMG with visa issues. Have also seen these positions created for alternative pathway folks until they become board certified.
 
Baws said:
(Maybe others can comment on this "clinical instructor" situation, its a first for me)
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Just sad. I started to see this sort of BS around the time I was finishing residency. I don't believe these jobs existed to any meaningful degree in the 2000s. Just for context, programs that I was familiar with in the 2000s hired their own residents for a year or two as real faculty even when they knew that they might be moving on (waiting for job where family was or waiting out spouses training).
 
Baws said:
Large midwest "pretigious" academic program here: two changes happening at our site:

We posted for 2 jobs, we had over 70 applications for them. We therefore changed one of these jobs to an "instructor" where the pay is 125K with no gurantee of increase; when I mentioned my concern in the staff meeting, I was told this was a generous salary for an instructor. (Maybe others can comment on this "clinical instructor" situation, its a first for me)

Our starting salary for the main facility used to be 300K; our chair has decided to decrease this to 275K this year due to 70+ applications (no word yet on the pay cut to the satellites, I signed on for 280K starting so I'd imagine it will be 250K now)
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Ah, this is simultaneously unfortunate to hear but also completely unsurprising and expected.

Ralph gets what he wanted I guess, and then some. Radiation Oncologists will be paid less than Pediatricians.
 
Baws said:
Large midwest "pretigious" academic program here: two changes happening at our site:

We posted for 2 jobs, we had over 70 applications for them. We therefore changed one of these jobs to an "instructor" where the pay is 125K with no gurantee of increase; when I mentioned my concern in the staff meeting, I was told this was a generous salary for an instructor. (Maybe others can comment on this "clinical instructor" situation, its a first for me)

Our starting salary for the main facility used to be 300K; our chair has decided to decrease this to 275K this year due to 70+ applications (no word yet on the pay cut to the satellites, I signed on for 280K starting so I'd imagine it will be 250K now)
Click to expand...
Every dosimetrist I know and many RTTs make more than 125k. I know one RTT in a HCOL area who makes twice that.

FWIW, during interviews I've heard unsubstantiated rumors of a "very prestigious" Texas academic program offering sub-100k for entry level positions.
 
elementaryschooleconomics said:
Ah, this is simultaneously unfortunate to hear but also completely unsurprising and expected.

Ralph gets what he wanted I guess, and then some. Radiation Oncologists will be paid less than Pediatricians.
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yeah but not with their geographic flexibility which is even worse
 
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I know of 2 radonc who became board certified this way without a us residency. One sucks clinically (but is a very nice person)
 
Baws said:
Large midwest "pretigious" academic program here: two changes happening at our site:

We posted for 2 jobs, we had over 70 applications for them. We therefore changed one of these jobs to an "instructor" where the pay is 125K with no gurantee of increase; when I mentioned my concern in the staff meeting, I was told this was a generous salary for an instructor. (Maybe others can comment on this "clinical instructor" situation, its a first for me)

Our starting salary for the main facility used to be 300K; our chair has decided to decrease this to 275K this year due to 70+ applications (no word yet on the pay cut to the satellites, I signed on for 280K starting so I'd imagine it will be 250K now)
Click to expand...

Dr. Dennis Hallahan would be most pleased- his plan is working!
 
Our chair got a salary increase of $150K, so yes … that plan seems to be working

Also if someone can verify if very prestigious west and east coast programs have instructors for a 5 years at 100K salary, it’d be helpful (our chair says this is true)

And yes: all of our dosimeterists make more than our proposed instructor salary

And no: we will likely hire a US MD for this (I’ve gone through our applications and am part of the interview process)
 
Baws said:
Also if someone can verify if very prestigious west and east coast programs have instructors for a 5 years at 100K salary, it’d be helpful (our chair says this is true)
Click to expand...

Closest I'm aware of is physician-scientist pathway positions paying in the 100s at big name places with one day a week of clinic and startup resources for lab. Only other similar thing I've seen is FMG on alternative pathway.
 
Baws said:
Our chair got a salary increase of $150K, so yes … that plan seems to be working

Also if someone can verify if very prestigious west and east coast programs have instructors for a 5 years at 100K salary, it’d be helpful (our chair says this is true)

And yes: all of our dosimeterists make more than our proposed instructor salary

And no: we will likely hire a US MD for this (I’ve gone through our applications and am part of the interview process)
Click to expand...

I don't know who the hell would stay in an instructor position for 5 years at that level of salary, but it sure as hell ain't me.

I have seen folks usually do it as a 1-year stop gap before being "promoted" (lol) to assistant professor, maybe 2 years...
 
evilbooyaa said:
I don't know who the hell would stay in an instructor position for 5 years at that level of salary, but it sure as hell ain't me.

I have seen folks usually do it as a 1-year stop gap before being "promoted" (lol) to assistant professor, maybe 2 years...
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Financially, it would destroy anyone with loans. Ist job at 40? Sounds like Dennis and Ralphs wet dream?
 
evilbooyaa said:
I have seen folks usually do it as a 1-year stop gap before being "promoted" (lol) to assistant professor, maybe 2 years...
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It's a cluster. With few exceptions, fellowships and instructorships should not exist and they definitely should not be advertised. At worst, they should be discrete and tied to a promise of an ensuing real job. In the past, some nice programs would set up their grads for a fellow-ship (or similar away time during residency) before hiring them the ensuing year.

By the time you are in this spot (taking a fellowship or instructorship without an understanding of future employment), I don't think things look good. I've personally known smart, academically committed docs who went the fellowship route, then adjunct clinical faculty etc. without ever getting traction in their careers despite being productive and clinically astute. If you don't have the support coming out of residency to get a true faculty job (your chair is probably the biggest determinate of this), my understanding is its a long, hard and uphill battle. Once you demonstrate a willingness to work for less to stay in academics, you are going to be treated like a second class citizen.
 
Baws said:
Our chair got a salary increase of $150K, so yes … that plan seems to be working

Also if someone can verify if very prestigious west and east coast programs have instructors for a 5 years at 100K salary, it’d be helpful (our chair says this is true)

And yes: all of our dosimeterists make more than our proposed instructor salary

And no: we will likely hire a US MD for this (I’ve gone through our applications and am part of the interview process)
Click to expand...

Just a joke. Have seen instructorship turn into an asst. prof position (not 5 yrs, just 2-3) just to toss you wherever they need you. Want to have a niche disease site and startup package and cut out a name for yourself? Yeah, you’ll get flexed to satellite X when the big man needs you.

Also, hey, good for those RTTs/dosimetrists pulling in 250K even if SF/NYC. Get it while you can. FIRE - not just for MDs.
 
W
Mandelin Rain said:
Every dosimetrist I know and many RTTs make more than 125k. I know one RTT in a HCOL area who makes twice that.

FWIW, during interviews I've heard unsubstantiated rumors of a "very prestigious" Texas academic program offering sub-100k for entry level positions.
Click to expand...

Why the hell would you pay an RTT that much? What revenue are they bringing in?
 
communitydoc13 said:
If you don't have the support coming out of residency to get a true faculty job (your chair is probably the biggest determinate of this), my understanding is its a long, hard and uphill battle. Once you demonstrate a willingness to work for less to stay in academics, you are going to be treated like a second class citizen.
Click to expand...
This should be emblazoned on every resident room wall. I shout this at residents who still wear their 'academic prestige' goggles. Hope saying you work for X university instead of 'less prestigious' Y university is worth delaying financial freedom, academic independence, etc etc.
 
StIGMA said:
This should be emblazoned on every resident room wall. I shout this at residents who still wear their 'academic prestige' goggles. Hope saying you work for X university instead of 'less prestigious' Y university is worth delaying financial freedom, academic independence, etc etc.
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Preach.

I had a meeting in my mid-PGY4 year with my Chair. I was told "we're not sure we're hiring for your year, but perhaps we could arrange an Instructor position". That was the day the last shred of interest I had in collecting more "academic prestige" died, and I reached out to about a dozen private practices over the next few weeks. The brass rings ain't worth it (to me, at least).
 
StIGMA said:
This should be emblazoned on every resident room wall. I shout this at residents who still wear their 'academic prestige' goggles. Hope saying you work for X university instead of 'less prestigious' Y university is worth delaying financial freedom, academic independence, etc etc.
Click to expand...
I would view perceived "prestige" coupled with location as being inversely correlated to academic job quality these days. How do you think Stanford, MGH etc are getting away with these lowball low quality entry level positions
 
elementaryschooleconomics said:
Preach.

I had a meeting in my mid-PGY4 year with my Chair. I was told "we're not sure we're hiring for your year, but perhaps we could arrange an Instructor position". That was the day the last shred of interest I had in collecting more "academic prestige" died, and I reached out to about a dozen private practices over the next few weeks. The brass rings ain't worth it (to me, at least).
Click to expand...
I would hope as this field settles into the gutter, that will quell status anxiety, and the exploitation of Instructorships is laid bare. Feeling proud as a Stanford RO instructor is like boasting that you went to Ross Medical School, the Harvard of the Carribean.
 
Baws said:
Our chair got a salary increase of $150K, so yes … that plan seems to be working

Also if someone can verify if very prestigious west and east coast programs have instructors for a 5 years at 100K salary, it’d be helpful (our chair says this is true)

And yes: all of our dosimeterists make more than our proposed instructor salary

And no: we will likely hire a US MD for this (I’ve gone through our applications and am part of the interview process)
Click to expand...

The only way someone could take a $100K instructor position after years of training is if they have a profound misunderstanding of their value and what opportunity cost are. You could easily make that much doing locums working like 1/3 of the year. Apparently, you can make that much driving a truck now too.
 
fiji128 said:
The only way someone could take a $100K instructor position after years of training is if they have a profound misunderstanding of their value and what opportunity cost are. You could easily make that much doing locums working like 1/3 of the year. Apparently, you can make that much driving a truck now too.
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Microsoft (and companies of similar ilk) are offering $200k+ salaries to 22 year-old Computer Science kids coming out of undergrad. I also know several senior administrative assistants making north of $100k (one makes close to $150k). Just some information that's good to have.
 
elementaryschooleconomics said:
Microsoft (and companies of similar ilk) are offering $200k+ salaries to 22 year-old Computer Science kids coming out of undergrad. I also know several senior administrative assistants making north of $100k (one makes close to $150k). Just some information that's good to have.
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Great job if they let you remote work. Not so great if you're forced to live near Seattle, Kirkland, Redmond etc
 
medgator said:
Great job if they let you remote work. Not so great if you're forced to live near Seattle, Kirkland, Redmond etc
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thats just their starting salary. Their pay generally increases to 400k-500k within 3-5 years in their late 20's, mostly thanks to stock market.
 
Has the job market tanked again? There’s a significant amount of post-interview ghosting happening.
 
bronchogenic said:
Has the job market tanked again? There’s a significant amount of post-interview ghosting happening.
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I have never agreed that the job market was amazing. To me this was a fantasy narrative. Eventually you come down to reality. The economics of the field remain the same: boomers and late gen Xers sitting at the top along with legacy well connected young grads, people being taken for a ride, the oversupply of applicants compared to “good” jobs. Let me guess the genX and boomers sitting at the top say “i don’t need help” as they count another double digit million in their NW.
The jobs make less than they used to. The locations have too many applications to actually read. More jobs are “take it or leave it” more often than not. Yes you have been ghosted. Yes they are frankly just not that into you. “Leaders” keep telling you times have never been better. Life comes at you fast.
 
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thecarbonionangle said:
I have never agreed that the job market was amazing. To me this was a fantasy narrative. Eventually you come down to reality. The economics of the field remain the same: boomers and late gen Xers sitting at the top along with legacy well connecter young grads, people being taken for a ride, the oversupply of applicants compared to “good” jobs. The jobs make less than they used to. The locations have too many applications to actually read. More jobs are “take it or leave it” more often than not. Yes you have been ghosted. Yes they are frankly just not that into you. “Leaders” keep telling you times have never been better. Life comes at you fast.
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Wasn’t implying that the job marking was good or amazing. My question was more along the lines of understanding the rationale behind spending thousands to fly candidates and their families out to spend multiple days in an area only to ghost them after. And to have been given a warm reception and been told they’d be a great fit during most/all interactions. Is this common in radiation oncology or maybe it’s a me problem?
 
bronchogenic said:
Wasn’t implying that the job marking was good or amazing. My question was more along the lines of understanding the rationale behind spending thousands to fly candidates and their families out to spend multiple days in an area only to ghost them after. And to have been given a warm reception and been told they’d be a great fit during most/all interactions. Is this common in radiation oncology or maybe it’s a me problem?
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There's a few things at play with this (and no, it's not you).

It depends on the type of job, but my hypothesis is that there are two driving factors:

1) It's a seller's market. Yes, things were transiently not as bad the last couple years as they normally have been, but "not as bad" for RadOnc is still...too many RadOncs.

The cost to hiring comes in two forms - both time and money. If you want to fill a job, weeding through a ton of candidates to find some you like is a time/energy-intense process. Once you find a handful, it's A LOT cheaper to spend the money to fly them out and see who you like most vs repeating the entire process from square one if you only bring out your favorite candidate, one at a time.

Part of "ghosting" is keeping your options open. If they interviewed 3 people, and extended the offer to one - they want to keep their "backup options" on the hook as long as possible. Ghosting is unprofessional, sure...but it works.

But ghosting in this context is also tied to my second factor:

2) Most humans have no ability to navigate conflict and avoid it at all costs.

Telling someone "hey, nice to meet you and your lovely family, but we actually don't like you as much as we like someone else, so bye bye forever, have a nice life".

Much easier to never say anything at all!
 
bronchogenic said:
Wasn’t implying that the job marking was good or amazing. My question was more along the lines of understanding the rationale behind spending thousands to fly candidates and their families out to spend multiple days in an area only to ghost them after. And to have been given a warm reception and been told they’d be a great fit during most/all interactions. Is this common in radiation oncology or maybe it’s a me problem?
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No, it’s common. Lots of things hospital admin do don’t make any economic sense. See the thread about the Cheyenne job. I think it simply boils down to the underlying disdain these people have for MDs and especially those who think they can run their own practice if they choose. Most of these admins could have never gotten into med school and carry huge chips on their shoulder.

I’ll never forget the one interaction I had with a recruiter in Kansas who started the conversation with “I was going to go to med school but I chose to have children instead” Not surprisingly I was offered 400k for a 15k wRVU job, and told take it or leave it and gaslit that this was a good offer by her.

The worst offenders are interestingly the catholic hospitals. I don’t think I’ve ever had a single reasonable back and forth with one of them. Ghosting, lowball offers, gaslighting, refusing to negotiate, etc.
 
bronchogenic said:
Wasn’t implying that the job marking was good or amazing. My question was more along the lines of understanding the rationale behind spending thousands to fly candidates and their families out to spend multiple days in an area only to ghost them after. And to have been given a warm reception and been told they’d be a great fit during most/all interactions. Is this common in radiation oncology or maybe it’s a me problem?
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Unless you have like urologist level serious halitosis/BO, no it is not you brotha. It is rad onc
 
bronchogenic said:
Has the job market tanked again? There’s a significant amount of post-interview ghosting happening.
Click to expand...
A temporary post covid improvement thanks to the "boomer remover" virus was never going to be a panacea for very long.

Esp in the face of APM/ROCR/payment uncertainty and the move towards allowing NP and virtual supervision (physical presence of the RO was propping up the job market pre covid as much as an excess of boomers was keeping the locums market down during that time).

Expect the job market to continue to go nowhere fast until we start graduating half the number of residents we are currently
 
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elementaryschooleconomics said:
There's a few things at play with this (and no, it's not you).

It depends on the type of job, but my hypothesis is that there are two driving factors:

1) It's a seller's market. Yes, things were transiently not as bad the last couple years as they normally have been, but "not as bad" for RadOnc is still...too many RadOncs.

The cost to hiring comes in two forms - both time and money. If you want to fill a job, weeding through a ton of candidates to find some you like is a time/energy-intense process. Once you find a handful, it's A LOT cheaper to spend the money to fly them out and see who you like most vs repeating the entire process from square one if you only bring out your favorite candidate, one at a time.

Part of "ghosting" is keeping your options open. If they interviewed 3 people, and extended the offer to one - they want to keep their "backup options" on the hook as long as possible. Ghosting is unprofessional, sure...but it works.

But ghosting in this context is also tied to my second factor:

2) Most humans have no ability to navigate conflict and avoid it at all costs.

Telling someone "hey, nice to meet you and your lovely family, but we actually don't like you as much as we like someone else, so bye bye forever, have a nice life".

Much easier to never say anything at all!
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You’ve done a great job of articulating my suspicions. This is somewhat reassuring, thank you.

On a somewhat related note, what’s a typical length of time in radonc between an onsite interview and an offer being made?
 
bronchogenic said:
You’ve done a great job of articulating my suspicions. This is somewhat reassuring, thank you.

On a somewhat related note, what’s a typical length of time in radonc between an onsite interview and an offer being made?
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Usually you will get a contract before you leave if they’re not screwing around.
 
MidwestRadOnc said:
Usually you will get a contract before you leave if they’re not screwing around.
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What constitutes “screwing around?” Interviewing other candidates? Not sure that they’re actually going to fill the position one is being interviewed for? Something else?
 
bronchogenic said:
What constitutes “screwing around?” Interviewing other candidates? Not sure that they’re actually going to fill the position one is being interviewed for? Something else?
Click to expand...

How much do you want this job and how long has it been post- interview? Have you reached out to them?

You can always send them an email thanking them and re-expressing your interest and then let them know that you’ve been asked to provide a response to another offer within a certain time frame to put some pressure on them.
 
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