Given the access to dental care issue, why aren't...?

[Destiny11]

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Given the access to dental care issue, why aren't an applicant's willingness and expressed desire to serve the underserved populations, along with demonstrated long term community service more of a factor in dental admissions?

Besides the GPA and DAT scores, why does it seem that this factor doesn't matter as much to dental school admissions? As a health professional, dentists should strive to serve all populations equally. I feel like dental schools are not doing their part to recruit dental students who can contribute more to the society. It doesn't take someone with a 3.4+ or a 20 DAT to be successful in dental school, but it will take a person's desire to help the underserved populations to do so when he or she becomes a dentist, and this desire often does not form AFTER entering dental school.

Sorry about the rant, I am a bit frustrated in seeing people I know who are in dental school because of their high stats, but are selfish individuals and are in it for $ (Good luck if you don't have private dental insurance).



Access to dental care: Solving the problem for underserved populations
http://jada.ada.org/cgi/content/full/135/11/1599

 

[highhopee]

Simple. I don't think dental admissions will believe that someone with sub par gpa and dat will be able to handle the rigor of the dental school courses and pass the boards, which is a requirement to get licensed and practice dentistry.

 

[321931]

Yep. It's all about handling the rigors of the curriculum. Why not aim for a 3.4 20+ with alot of time serving those communities? That looks even better.

 

[New2Philly]

Also, most people won't want to make sub-par wages with loads of debt coming out of school; not matter how much empathy they had going in.

 

[Dent001]

Desire to help others neabs diddly squat. All they care about is what you have done. So if you do have a desire to help others you should show it by doing lots of community service in school while still maintaining your grades.

 

[dentalWorks]

Given the access to dental care issue, why aren't an applicant's willingness and expressed desire to serve the underserved populations, along with demonstrated long term community service more of a factor in dental admissions?

How would the adcoms be able to prove this to be correct or not? If I let a school know that I REALLY REALLY wanna be a dentist, and its mostly because I wanna service the undeserved population, how will they know that I am forrealz and not full-of-s*** ??? You see what I mean?

There is something you need to consider as to why many healthcare professionals don't go out and work in the undeserved populations. Think about it, when you graduate dental school (or any other professional school), you are in debt anywhere between 250k-400k (including undergrad of course)..... Then, you got your 6-9% interest rate piling on top of that...... So, most professionals find it more practical to move into a big city where the potential to make a larger income is more evident than in undeserved areas.

Please understand, this is NOT something I am advocating, but it is a sad reality. It is estimated that approx 1/3rd of the USA population is considered "undeserved", a few dentists going out of their way into undeserved locations isn't going to solve the issue. And honestly, I dunno how or what would.

Besides the GPA and DAT scores, why does it seem that this factor doesn't matter as much to dental school admissions? As a health professional, dentists should strive to serve all populations equally. I feel like dental schools are not doing their part to recruit dental students who can contribute more to the society. It doesn't take someone with a 3.4+ or a 20 DAT to be successful in dental school, but it will take a person's desire to help the underserved populations to do so when he or she becomes a dentist, and this desire often does not form AFTER entering dental school.

Sorry about the rant, I am a bit frustrated in seeing people I know who are in dental school because of their high stats, but are selfish individuals and are in it for $ (Good luck if you don't have private dental insurance).

Access to dental care: Solving the problem for underserved populations
http://jada.ada.org/cgi/content/full/135/11/1599

Like someone said before me, Dental school is a system that is designed to accept individuals who have shown they can and will pass through the dental curriculum. From school's previous experiences, people with strong GPAs and DATs tend to have an easier time passing dental school.

There is NO WAY a dental school is going to identify whos going to work in undeserved and who isn't just from looking at an application and having an interview or two with that individual. Working in undeserved is a choice, a person can change his/her mind ANY time they want. Whatever "desire" you show them before dental school will quickly change once you see how much debt your in after graduation and how fast/hard you have to work to pay it all off

 

[omaralt]

it's also because a lot of pre-dents talk about how much they want to help the underserved, etc, etc. and then when they graduate they wont do it. who's going to take less money to work in a crappy place? i do some pro-bono work every year, thats how i give back, but i will never work in a medicaid clinic

 

[Destiny11]

First of all, thank you everyone for contributing and sharing your opinions. Very much appreciated as this issue has been on my mind for a long time!

Simple. I don't think dental admissions will believe that someone with sub par gpa and dat will be able to handle the rigor of the dental school courses and pass the boards, which is a requirement to get licensed and practice dentistry.

Yep. It's all about handling the rigors of the curriculum. Why not aim for a 3.4 20+ with alot of time serving those communities? That looks even better.

I agree with both of you. I don't think an applicant with a sub par GPA and DAT can make it through dental school. But what is considered sub par? The average stats of accepted students from 10 years ago are around a 3.2GPA, 18DAT, and I believe they are all practicing today. Many of the older dentists practicing today may even have lower stats than that. What if you have an applicant with a 2.9 undergraduate GPA, went on to have 3.7+ in a post-bacc or SMP program, and ended up with a 3.2. I think that's enough to justify that he or she can handle dental school courses. Some people are simply late bloomers or have other circumstances during their undergrad years. Of course if you have a 3.4+ 20+ with demonstrated service with the underserved populations, then you would be an ideal applicant.

Also, most people won't want to make sub-par wages with loads of debt coming out of school; not matter how much empathy they had going in.

Unfortunately this is true. However there are loan repayment options with IHS or NHSC while earning a decent salary. Many people won't even consider this option because it doesn't fit their life style.

Desire to help others neabs diddly squat. All they care about is what you have done. So if you do have a desire to help others you should show it by doing lots of community service in school while still maintaining your grades.

How would the adcoms be able to prove this to be correct or not? If I let a school know that I REALLY REALLY wanna be a dentist, and its mostly because I wanna service the undeserved population, how will they know that I am forrealz and not full-of-s*** ??? You see what I mean?

I agree. I am not talking about just any sporadic community service. I am talking more about an applicant who has volunteered or worked years with underserved populations (e.g. CHC, Teach for America). But yet I continue to see applicants with high stats but very little service in dental school. I am simply disappointed to see long term service is not a major factor even if the applicant has demonstrated his or her ability to handle dental school curriculum. It's often not even a question in the secondaries or in the interview. We are talking about training health professionals here. The only school that I know that puts emphasis on long term service (esp to the underserved population) is ASDOH.

it's also because a lot of pre-dents talk about how much they want to help the underserved, etc, etc. and then when they graduate they wont do it. who's going to take less money to work in a crappy place? i do some pro-bono work every year, thats how i give back, but i will never work in a medicaid clinic

It is understandable that once you start a private practice, your priority changes from providing health care to all to maintaining a profitable business. That's just an unfortunate fact of the dental delivery system. Doing some pro-bono work is admirable, but it is nothing compared to CHCs that sees 30-40 Medicaid patients a day because they have no where else to go. And of course there are also dentists who do cosmetic dentistry in the morning and calls it a day. There are applicants who would be willing to work for a Medicaid clinic. Don't you think they should be given more of a chance?

 

[321931]

It is understandable that once you start a private practice, your priority changes from providing health care to all to maintaining a profitable business. That's just an unfortunate fact of the dental delivery system. Doing some pro-bono work is admirable, but it is nothing compared to CHCs that sees 30-40 Medicaid patients a day because they have no where else to go. And of course there are also dentists who do cosmetic dentistry in the morning and calls it a day. There are applicants who would be willing to work for a Medicaid clinic. Don't you think they should be given more of a chance?

Unfortunately, what you are talking about is idealism. Yes, your idea is good...but how can gauge whether an individual really will serve in the undeserved communities? How do you know whether the individual just "did community service" to look good on the resume? You just can't gauge it. Second of all, how would you "know" or "make" someone work at Medicaid clinic once they graduate.

It's all subjective. That's why numbers counts, and really...most of the 3.5+ that I know have some sort of community service. So unless you have 500-1000+ hrs, then I guess you can "stress" you really want to serve the underserved...but as far as I know, most people embellish their community service.

Bottom line: it's subjective, and numbers (for the most part) aren't.

 

[hopefullyadent]

lol i love this stupid idealism..there are soo many kids like that at my school..this one guy was like oh im being a doctor so i can help ppl, i have no financial incentive..and then he was like i want to go to harvard 'to give the best care to my patients' and im fascinated by academics..and the kids always brags about how he eats dinner with doctors who leave 500% tips...the kid is so full of s-h-i-t..i hope that when he interviews the adcoms show him lol

im glad its pretty much gpa and numbers and dental experience..the way it should be

 

[promolion]

yea they are willing to work for medicaid clinic. but once they are in and have a massive debt........hmmmm..........
I agree with u that there need to be more dentist going out on missions though.

 

[Destiny11]

Unfortunately, what you are talking about is idealism. Yes, your idea is good...but how can gauge whether an individual really will serve in the undeserved communities? How do you know whether the individual just "did community service" to look good on the resume? You just can't gauge it. Second of all, how would you "know" or "make" someone work at Medicaid clinic once they graduate.

It's all subjective. That's why numbers counts, and really...most of the 3.5+ that I know have some sort of community service. So unless you have 500-1000+ hrs, then I guess you can "stress" you really want to serve the underserved...but as far as I know, most people embellish their community service.

Bottom line: it's subjective, and numbers (for the most part) aren't.

Haha I think it's good to be a little idealistic. From my post above...I am not talking about just any sporadic community service. I am talking more about an applicant who has volunteered or worked years with underserved populations (e.g. CHC, Teach for America). I don't think you can fake years worth of service if you are not truly in for it. I am simply disappointed to see long term service is not a major factor even if the applicant has demonstrated his or her ability to handle dental school curriculum. It's often not even a question in the secondaries or in the interview. It seems that dental schools only care about training competent dentists, but who that they will use their valuable skills on. Of course you can't force anyone to do anything, but I think someone with a long term record of service will be more likely to work in a CHC, or accept Medicaid patients when he or she starts a private practice.

 

[promolion]

im glad its pretty much gpa and numbers and dental experience..the way it should be

In the recent years, dental school said that they see increases in # of "quality" applicants. That means high # + community service+ good extracurr. I know someone that has 3.8/21 that got rejected to all cali schools without interviews. He did comm. service for like 2 summer only. lol

 

[321931]

Haha I think it's good to be a little idealistic. From my post above...I am not talking about just any sporadic community service. I am talking more about an applicant who has volunteered or worked years with underserved populations (e.g. CHC, Teach for America). I don't think you can fake years worth of service if you are not truly in for it. I am simply disappointed to see long term service is not a major factor even if the applicant has demonstrated his or her ability to handle dental school curriculum. It's often not even a question in the secondaries or in the interview. We are talking about training health professionals here. Of course you can't force anyone to do anything, but I think someone with a long term record of service will be more likely to work in a CHC, or accept Medicaid patients when he or she starts a private practice.

I do agree with you. It's good to be idealistic, but also realistic. Unfortunately with 13000 applicants. I really doubt schools scour over EVERY application, and the easiest way to filter out Apps is through numbers.

 

[Destiny11]

yea they are willing to work for medicaid clinic. but once they are in and have a massive debt........hmmmm..........
I agree with u that there need to be more dentist going out on missions though.

What about loan repayment programs with the NHSC? One day you will pay off your debt, but what will you do to help then? Will you enroll in Medicaid despite losing .50 for every $1 you charge and mounts of paper work? Medicaid doesn't even cover most services for adults anymore. These questions are not pointed just at you btw lol...these are the questions I ask myself everyday.

 

[dentalWorks]

I agree with both of you. I don't think an applicant with a sub par GPA and DAT can make it through dental school. But what is considered sub par? The average stats of accepted students from 10 years ago are around a 3.2GPA, 18DAT, and I believe they are all practicing today. Many of the older dentists practicing today may even have lower stats than that. What if you have an applicant with a 2.9 undergraduate GPA, went on to have 3.7+ in a post-bacc or SMP program, and ended up with a 3.2. I think that's enough to justify that he or she can handle dental school courses. Some people are simply late bloomers or have other circumstances during their undergrad years. Of course if you have a 3.4+ 20+ with demonstrated service with the underserved populations, then you would be an ideal applicant.

Its alllllll about competition. If you had a room that had 100 applicants, and you can only accept 10 of them, you, and everyone else is going to accept the BEST 10 out of that group.... not the "oh well hes good enough because he has a 3.7 SMP GPA".... no, they will flat out accept the ones with the best numbers.... A youngster whos 22 years of age, packing a 3.6 undergrad GPA and a comparable DAT score to the non-traditional student with a 3.2 overall while spending the last 2 years earning only 4.0s is not the same..... Both guys should handle the dental curriculum, but the 22 year old always had his head on his shoulders and stayed focused, while the non-traditional partied in his undergrad years and waited for his older days to "mature".

Now believe me, i am not against the way system works, as matter of fact I am a non-traditional student, I did party and d!ck around my undergrad years, and the fact that I have 6 interviews so far makes me feel extremely grateful.... But I have to be fair in my assessment, we (the older non-trads) had our chance in our undergrad years to prove our selves, some of us missed that opportunity and are now returning for a 2nd chance.... Some adcoms might think this is totally okay, and others will think that its not since its time for us old-farts to step aside and let the younger generation have their opportunity to shine

I agree. I am not talking about just any sporadic community service. I am talking more about an applicant who has volunteered or worked years with underserved populations (e.g. CHC, Teach for America). But yet I continue to see applicants with high stats but very little service in dental school. I am simply disappointed to see long term service is not a major factor even if the applicant has demonstrated his or her ability to handle dental school curriculum. It's often not even a question in the secondaries or in the interview. We are talking about training health professionals here. The only school that I know that puts emphasis on long term service (esp to the underserved population) is ASDOH.

But then again, how would anyone know that once you enter dental school, all that "humanitarian" work won't just go out the window? When I sit in class and I have a discussion with my pre-med / pre-dental friends about Extracurricular Activities... do know know what they usually say? "Oh, I am trying to volunteer at hospitals and all these other places because med schools really wanna see that kind of stuff on the application"..... Most of these kids aren't doing it to help the community, they are piling hours and hours of volunteering-activities because they wanna boost their application.

I had a kid in my histology course last term, who swore that he had over 1000 hours volunteering at Beaumont hospital in about 1 year. From his tone, he wasn't even interested in volunteering, he just wanted to look as best as possible come application time....

This is the main reason why schools should NOT put a heavy emphasis on the extracurricular, most students who are involved in ECs are only doing it to gain admission.

 

[dentalWorks]

What about loan repayment programs with the NHSC? One day you will pay off your debt, but what will you do to help then? Will you enroll in Medicaid despite losing .50 for every $1 you charge and mounts of paper work? Medicaid doesn't even cover most services for adults anymore. These questions are not pointed just at you btw lol...these are the questions I ask myself everyday.

NHSC is a GREAT option, unfortunately, not everyone who applys gets it.

 

[Seahawk]

It's a lot easier to go volunteer at the soup kitchen than it is to get a good GPA/DAT score. If they started looking at the community stuff a whole bunch...Everybody would just be out rehabilitating baby squirrels all day and getting sub par GPAs...Then they would have an even harder time telling who was actually doing a lot of stuff for the community out of desire to help others...As well as who could handle a hard academic load.

My theory on the subject.

 

[Destiny11]

It's a lot easier to go volunteer at the soup kitchen than it is to get a good GPA/DAT score. If they started looking at the community stuff a whole bunch...Everybody would just be out rehabilitating baby squirrels all day and getting sub par GPAs...Then they would have an even harder time telling who was actually doing a lot of stuff for the community out of desire to help others...As well as who could handle a hard academic load.

My theory on the subject.

What do you think of the ASDOH model?

 

[yappy]

This is the thinking that I think should change.
Are they judging applicants based on who had the head screwed on straight from the start or who would make the best dental student? In the most challenging years of undergrad (or maybe even a masters) the nontrad out performed the other student by a large margin - yet because the other did better in easier classes 3 years ago they will be a better DS? Seems odd. "screw the guy who 4.0 his sci masters - I got an A in college lit. 3 yrs ago."

.... A youngster whos 22 years of age, packing a 3.6 undergrad GPA and a comparable DAT score to the non-traditional student with a 3.2 overall while spending the last 2 years earning only 4.0s is not the same..... Both guys should handle the dental curriculum, but the 22 year old always had his head on his shoulders and stayed focused, while the non-traditional partied in his undergrad years and waited for his older days to "mature".

 

[txlonghorn]

What about loan repayment programs with the NHSC? One day you will pay off your debt, but what will you do to help then? Will you enroll in Medicaid despite losing .50 for every $1 you charge and mounts of paper work? Medicaid doesn't even cover most services for adults anymore. These questions are not pointed just at you btw lol...these are the questions I ask myself everyday.

Add to the fact that you have to get approval for what you recommend your patient should get.

 

[txlonghorn]

Also your comment about dentist from 10 years back getting in with a 3.2 gpa is somewhat flawed. There is a lot of grade inflation right now. I looked at the gpa trend at my business school when I graduated and the average gpa was a 3.5. Five years before I graduated, the gpa was a 3.2.

 

[UltimateHombre]

Haha I think it's good to be a little idealistic. From my post above...I am not talking about just any sporadic community service. I am talking more about an applicant who has volunteered or worked years with underserved populations (e.g. CHC, Teach for America). I don't think you can fake years worth of service if you are not truly in for it.

I would have to disagree with you.... people fake it all the time these days... don't get me wrong, there are genuine people out there, but many applicants just jump through the hoops because they have too. Just the reality, sad if it may be...

Lets also consider the NHSC that was mentioned a bit earlier, a great thing right?! Yes it is, but the only reason people want to sign up is for loan repayment! Working for the under served pays well in this circumstance. If you have 300K in debt that is wiped out out after 4 years of service, if you think about it that is an extra 75K of loan repayment money a year on top of your decent salary!

I like your idealistic thinking Destiny... but the skeptic in me knows it will never happen. If dental schools were to accept sub-par applicants who PROMISED to help the under served for the rest of their life, i think there would need to be some contractual agreement to keep people honest... because by nature people are greedy and everyone has their personal and families best interest in mind in the end.

Last comment... there is a reason why you don't hear of many public health specialists, they lead to low financial gain. Although i am sure they are personally fulfilling, they don't make ends meet....
Scenario: I have a 200K mortgage, I have 300K in student loans, I have a wife and 2 kids. Should i take a job making 150K or 80K? Easy decision...😀

 

[Destiny11]

I like your idealistic thinking Destiny... but the skeptic in me knows it will never happen. If dental schools were to accept sub-par applicants who PROMISED to help the under served for the rest of their life, i think there would need to be some contractual agreement to keep people honest... because by nature people are greedy and everyone has their personal and families best interest in mind in the end.

Last comment... there is a reason why you don't hear of many public health specialists, they lead to low financial gain. Although i am sure they are personally fulfilling, they don't make ends meet....
Scenario: I have a 200K mortgage, I have 300K in student loans, I have a wife and 2 kids. Should i take a job making 150K or 80K? Easy decision...😀

It's perfectly understandable if you have a family. That has to come first of course.

What do you think of the ASDOH model? I don't think their students are "sub-par", and they are still able to incorporate long term service to the underserved into their admission decisions. I think a good percentage of their graduates do end up working in CHCs (~30%) and other governmental agencies. I don't know about other dental schools.

 

[dl9006]

so many pre-meds/pre-dents are full of bs .

i've seen people that should have never been accepted to medical and dental schools based on their personality. but the thing is these people were also very cunning and had an excellent talent for BS-ing.

how would you catch these kinds of applicants?

if doctors and dentists were paid average salaries, I wonder what the admissions stats would look like?


time to drop the ideals and face reality.

 

[yappy]

I think dental school should establish better safeguards for people who are dishonest or are even of bad character.

When I volunteered with the fire department I was given:

-psych exam that consisted of an interview and exam for personality disorders, ability to cope with stress, and mental health.
-back ground check by a PI to look up ALL of my references work, school, and volunteer related. Also he even found additional people to interview about me. Then he came to my house and interviewed me as well as people next door.
-lie detector with random questions
-two interviews

This whole process was about consistancy - also the phyc test had a lie scale built into it. If you had small flaws in your past you would be D/Q'd. I was told after being selected that they ran through 2 groups of 60 and only 16 passed all the requirements. Imagine if the standard was this high in dentistry combined with the GPA/DAT.

so many pre-meds/pre-dents are full of bs .


how would you catch these kinds of applicants?

 

[321931]

I think dental school should establish better safeguards for people who are dishonest or are even of bad character.

When I volunteered with the fire department I was given:

-psych exam that consisted of an interview and exam for personality disorders, ability to cope with stress, and mental health.
-back ground check by a PI to look up ALL of my references work, school, and volunteer related. Also he even found additional people to interview about me. Then he came to my house and interviewed me as well as people next door.
-lie detector with random questions
-two interviews

This whole process was about consistancy - also the phyc test had a lie scale built into it. If you had small flaws in your past you would be D/Q'd. I was told after being selected that they ran through 2 groups of 60 and only 16 passed all the requirements. Imagine if the standard was this high in dentistry combined with the GPA/DAT.

LOL, I can just imagine going to a dental school interview and having a lie detector on me. LOL

 

[doc toothache]

Are there many applicants who, in their ps, do not profess to want to serve the underprivileged?

 

[dentalWorks]

I think dental school should establish better safeguards for people who are dishonest or are even of bad character.

When I volunteered with the fire department I was given:

-psych exam that consisted of an interview and exam for personality disorders, ability to cope with stress, and mental health.
-back ground check by a PI to look up ALL of my references work, school, and volunteer related. Also he even found additional people to interview about me. Then he came to my house and interviewed me as well as people next door.
-lie detector with random questions
-two interviews

This whole process was about consistancy - also the phyc test had a lie scale built into it. If you had small flaws in your past you would be D/Q'd. I was told after being selected that they ran through 2 groups of 60 and only 16 passed all the requirements. Imagine if the standard was this high in dentistry combined with the GPA/DAT.

well it should be pretty obvious why they don't go into these extreme measures (example: lie detector).... its because the objective of EVERY dental school is to accept students who CAN and WILL pass through the curriculum of dental school..... This is the primary objective.

If you were to put someone on a lie detector.... what exactly are you planning to ask them?
-"sir, will you work in an undeserved area?" eh... yes? *LIE* *REJECTED*
-"sir, are you a dishonest person?" eh...no? *LIE* *REJECTED*
-"sir, are you a psycho?" eh...no? *HONEST* *ACCEPTANCE*

I am running out of questions to ask (even stupid ones), someone care to help?

 

[yappy]

It was questions specific to the data collected from resume, background check, and anything i said I did or did not do. Also questions about if I ever broke the law, used drugs etc. etc.

 

[dl9006]

LOL, I can just imagine going to a dental school interview and having a lie detector on me. LOL

lol that would be hilarious.


interviews are nerve wrecking enough already.

imagine being interrogated while strapped down to a chair with a lie detector



i think i would have gotten a heart attack if they did that

 

[corpus luteum]

Also, most people won't want to make sub-par wages with loads of debt coming out of school; not matter how much empathy they had going in.

I totally agree. I think this is the problem with both med and dent, and perhaps more so with med just because it is a longer process. I honestly think many people go into these fields because they want to help people, but when they come out of this intense, grueling, training process and left with SO much debt, they are forced to become more money-minded. No matter how much you want to help others, you have to help yourself first. There need to be more loan-forgiveness programs to encourage new graduates coming out of dental school to practice in underserved areas.

 

[Denteeth]

I totally agree. I think this is the problem with both med and dent, and perhaps more so with med just because it is a longer process. I honestly think many people go into these fields because they want to help people, but when they come out of this intense, grueling, training process and left with SO much debt, they are forced to become more money-minded. No matter how much you want to help others, you have to help yourself first. There need to be more loan-forgiveness programs to encourage new graduates coming out of dental school to practice in underserved areas.

C'mon mate.... everyone knows before getting into ds what kind of debt they are getting into… it is not like playing black jack at a casino table in LV for the first time…OK bad analogy but you get the point …lol

Also, don’t we all answer this “why dentistry” question and supposedly “truthfully” without bringing “money” into the discussion so why is change of heart all of a sudden 😉

Frankly speaking no government loan forgiveness program or anything else similar to that can make an individual go and serve in those areas unless he or she has “that” thing inside them, period!!

good discussion nevertheless.....👍

 

[scident25]

My cousin graduated from UNC a couple years back and now practices at a FQHC. The first 2 years $25k is taken off of his DS debt each year. Next year will be his third year at this clinic and the debt payoff increases to $35k per year.

On another note speaking of a change of heart in helping the underserved when the massive amount of debt piles up...what about people who will graduate debt free??? (not me)

They don't need to make $300k a year to payoff debt. Wouldn't that be attractive to some d-schools???

Great thread by the way!!!

 

[Destiny11]

My cousin graduated from UNC a couple years back and now practices at a FQHC. The first 2 years $25k is taken off of his DS debt each year. Next year will be his third year at this clinic and the debt payoff increases to $35k per year.

👍

On another note speaking of a change of heart in helping the underserved when the massive amount of debt piles up...what about people who will graduate debt free??? (not me)

That's a good question. It will really test that dental student's character then, which will reflect the school they graduated from. I know some students who would not treat the poor or would not practice more than 30min away from the nearest shopping mall. Same can be said for the people on military and NHSC scholarships...what population will they serve after their obligations are over?

The truth is...the underserved population does not benefit from the current dental delivery system. For a dentist coming out of school with debt, and then buying into a practice or starting a new practice, and house and car payments...treating patients that make you lose money will be the last thing that he or she would do. I think a dentist needs to realize he or she will always be paying for something, but they are also one of the few people in the world who can treat/improve another person's dental problems/oral health.

Another point is that dental school is a business. They will probably encourage more students to go into private practice, so that they will have a wealthier alumni base that would potentially donate back to the school.

 

[UltimateHombre]

What do you think of the ASDOH model? I don't think their students are "sub-par", and they are still able to incorporate long term service to the underserved into their admission decisions. I think a good percentage of their graduates do end up working in CHCs (~30%) and other governmental agencies. I don't know about other dental schools.

The model that your are advocating seems very different than ASDOH's model.... correct me if i am wrong, but it seems you are suggesting that anyone with an over tremendous desire to work for the underserved should be accepted regardless of stats.

I think ASDOH's model is very unique.... I also don't think their students are "sub-par". They still all have decent GPA's and DAT scores, but they also have 600+ hours of community service.

I am pretty sure the whole CHC ~30% thing is pretty wrong... within their program you are awarded a certificate in public health, with the option of going on and concurrently getting your MPH. But at the open house a few weeks ago i attended, Dean Dillenburg (spelling??) said that only 12 of their 64 grads will be getting their MPH as well. He also said that they encourage working for the underserved, but however the individual wants. If they want to work for a CHC or just work once every couple months in a public clinic, they don't care.

Also many dentists in the East Phoenix area don't really like ASDOH, because it's flooding the private practice market here. Just a common opinion floating around.... no facts....

 

[Destiny11]

The model that your are advocating seems very different than ASDOH's model.... correct me if i am wrong, but it seems you are suggesting that anyone with an over tremendous desire to work for the underserved should be accepted regardless of stats.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying someone who has not shown that they can handle the dental school curriculum should be accepted. I am saying I would rather have someone with a 3.3GPA, 19DAT, demonstrated long term service to the underserved (600+hours) and leadership ability to initiate community projects, over an applicant with a 3.7, 22DAT with sporadic or no service. I think ASDOH's stats are lower than other schools because they actually think this factor is important.

I am pretty sure the whole CHC ~30% thing is pretty wrong... within their program you are awarded a certificate in public health, with the option of going on and concurrently getting your MPH. But at the open house a few weeks ago i attended, Dean Dillenburg (spelling??) said that only 12 of their 64 grads will be getting their MPH as well. He also said that they encourage working for the underserved, but however the individual wants. If they want to work for a CHC or just work once every couple months in a public clinic, they don't care.

I think you are right 30% is high. I do wonder what the percentages are at other dental schools.

Here is the information from ASDOH Class of 2008 Graduation Survey:
Plans after graduation:
Did not know 6%
Specialty or Residency Training 32%
Directly into practice/ employment 62%

Directly into practice/ employment
Private or group practice 38%
Hospital 15%
University 4%
Military 11%
Other 2%
Community/ Public Health 30%
FQHC 24%
IHS 4%
Local govmt 2%

Also many dentists in the East Phoenix area don't really like ASDOH, because it's flooding the private practice market here. Just a common opinion floating around.... no facts....

I heard about this too. I think MWU would be more of a competition for these dentists.

 

[wantVCUdental]

I am saying I would rather have someone with a 3.3GPA, 19DAT, demonstrated long term service to the underserved (600+hours) and leadership ability to initiate community projects, over an applicant with a 3.7, 22DAT with sporadic or no service.

many 3.3 and 19s get accepted every year while some 3.7 with 22 are turned down. BUT! it doesn't mean all 3.3 with a lot of ECs will for sure get in over the 3.7s with no service.

Many schools know what they are doing, i think once you have 2.7 and over 20DAT, most schools will review your app. They will consider all kinds of factors from your courseload to your ECs and to your motivations for dentistry. They've been doing this for decades! admission is one of their main jobs! I think they are way more experienced in knowing what kind of people will succeed and what kind won't, let's not underestimate them (though sometimes i think they didn't really give my app a chance 😀).

Good luck with the admissions process everyone 🙂

 

[Just Peachy]

"The only school that I know that puts emphasis on long term service (esp to the underserved population) is ASDOH."


Western does too. They like to see well rounded people who are committed to dentistry and they pay attention to the kind of volunteer work/dental experience you have. Example: I volunteered in a free dental clinic for 3 years, racked up over 300 hours there, had low stats, and got in on Dec 1. They straight up told me a few weeks ago that it was my dedication to dentistry through the free clinic that got them to take a second look at my application.

It is part of our curriculum to work in underserved areas within a 60 mile range of the school (classes built in to the curriculum throughout the 4 years: service learning, clinical service learning, and community dentistry). We start working with underserved populations a lot in the second year (some in the first year if you want to) and continue with it until we graduate. I think going to a school that puts this kind of focus on service to the community gets you in the habit of doing it and then you are more likely to continue it once you graduate.

 

[321931]

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying someone who has not shown that they can handle the dental school curriculum should be accepted. I am saying I would rather have someone with a 3.3GPA, 19DAT, demonstrated long term service to the underserved (600+hours) and leadership ability to initiate community projects, over an applicant with a 3.7, 22DAT with sporadic or no service. I think ASDOH's stats are lower than other schools because they actually think this factor is important.

Don't get me wrong. I think your ideals are in good faith; however, it's not solid to base a decision on.

Second of all, many pre-dents and especially pre-meds maintain a 3.7+ with lots and lots and lots of community service. If they can do it, why shouldn't a 3.3 have a 3.7. We all enter college equally with 0.0 gpa. It's up to us whether we want a 4.0, 3.7, or 3.3. I think gpa is harder to maintain then community service. Once you're down to a 2.9, its alot harder to pull up compared to community service.(I went down that road 2.9 eek) In addition, it's just a stronger way to gauge a person's ability to go through dental school.

 

[HoustonDAT]

Problem: Not enough dentists to serve the underprivileged.

Solution: Admit 1-3 borderline applicants (like myself 😀; high DAT, upward trend in GPA, all A's in upper level sciences, vast dentistry experience, etc...) a year with a contractual obligation to go to under-served areas for 1-3 years. Have their student loans deferred until after their contractual obligation is completed. They can be paid by lowering their student loan debt, or a modest regular salary (~80k), or not being paid at all. The applicant wins because he/she gains dental school admission. The school wins because they are getting dentists to the under-served areas. The public wins because they are getting dental care with low to zero increase in costs.

Basically my plan shifts the majority of the burden on this borderline applicant. People who have high GPAs and high DATs have earned the right to sail right into dental school. Applicants in my shoes (3rd time applying, love dentistry, poor start to undergrad,etc.) will undoubtedly do whatever(ethically) it takes to get in.

Problem solved.

 

[yappy]

Have you guys ever heard that dental schools try to "fill a compete class" with diverse people and experiences? Meaning that they're not going to try to get every 4.0 28 DAT student who applies. They will bring in a range of students for a little diversity? Maybe that is where some service can help an applicant out if they are borderline stat wise. I'm not saying they can be really low but the school may look to fill in some academic seats while also reserving some seats for average stat but past work experience/ extensive volunteer work.

This was what I was told at a prehealth meeting by an advisor. I didn't know if it was BS or not.

 

[Destiny11]

"The only school that I know that puts emphasis on long term service (esp to the underserved population) is ASDOH."


Western does too. They like to see well rounded people who are committed to dentistry and they pay attention to the kind of volunteer work/dental experience you have. Example: I volunteered in a free dental clinic for 3 years, racked up over 300 hours there, had low stats, and got in on Dec 1. They straight up told me a few weeks ago that it was my dedication to dentistry through the free clinic that got them to take a second look at my application.

It is part of our curriculum to work in underserved areas within a 60 mile range of the school (classes built in to the curriculum throughout the 4 years: service learning, clinical service learning, and community dentistry). We start working with underserved populations a lot in the second year (some in the first year if you want to) and continue with it until we graduate. I think going to a school that puts this kind of focus on service to the community gets you in the habit of doing it and then you are more likely to continue it once you graduate.

Oh wow I didn't know that about Western. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Destiny11]

Second of all, many pre-dents and especially pre-meds maintain a 3.7+ with lots and lots and lots of community service.

Of course. These applicants deserve every right.

If they can do it, why shouldn't a 3.3 have a 3.7. We all enter college equally with 0.0 gpa. It's up to us whether we want a 4.0, 3.7, or 3.3. I think gpa is harder to maintain then community service. Once you're down to a 2.9, its alot harder to pull up compared to community service.(I went down that road 2.9 eek) In addition, it's just a stronger way to gauge a person's ability to go through dental school.

You can't simply assume that everyone are given the same circumstances to fully concentrate on their studies. Of course people with poor grades because they partied through college have no excuse. However, some are late bloomers and/or ESL, work full time through college, have other life issues that they cannot control and other responsibilities. Undergrad is a learning and maturing experience for most people, not to mention other factors (e.g. university standards, easier vs. harder major, private vs. public, rigor of curriculum). And yes there are people that can still pull off a 3.7 with all this going on...but that's rare.

 

[Montserrat]

As much as schools invoke the popular nouveau lipservice of helping the underserved, they are not in the business of recruiting Jesus figures. I have plenty of classmates that don't give a crap about service and student run service events like COSMO, which is run by medical students here to help the homeless. That's just how the admissions process works -- on paper, many applicants profess their desire for community work and many of them are probably lying through their teeth. All a school can do is pick the cream of the crop.

 

[shahinc]

"The only school that I know that puts emphasis on long term service (esp to the underserved population) is ASDOH."


Western does too. They like to see well rounded people who are committed to dentistry and they pay attention to the kind of volunteer work/dental experience you have. Example: I volunteered in a free dental clinic for 3 years, racked up over 300 hours there, had low stats, and got in on Dec 1. They straight up told me a few weeks ago that it was my dedication to dentistry through the free clinic that got them to take a second look at my application.

It is part of our curriculum to work in underserved areas within a 60 mile range of the school (classes built in to the curriculum throughout the 4 years: service learning, clinical service learning, and community dentistry). We start working with underserved populations a lot in the second year (some in the first year if you want to) and continue with it until we graduate. I think going to a school that puts this kind of focus on service to the community gets you in the habit of doing it and then you are more likely to continue it once you graduate.

The more I read about Western or hear about their culture and .. the more I feel that I am great fit for that school and will really enjoy being there.

I have the grades for them and have th EC activites, life experiences and... But too bad, that I am not getting an interview from them 🙁 🙁

Damn, I feel really sad right now.

 

[scident25]

Not to get off topic but doesn't this thread kind of pertain to a Hometown Applicant process they have at ASDOH or some other DS?

Do schools use a contract based admittance for this application to weed out the BS'ers?

 

[Destiny11]

Not to get off topic but doesn't this thread kind of pertain to a Hometown Applicant process they have at ASDOH or some other DS?

Do schools use a contract based admittance for this application to weed out the BS'ers?

The Hometown Applicant process is a separate endorsement process you can get from a CHC indicating that you are interested to work for them after you graduate from ASDOH. That policy was initiated to answer the needs of various CHCs around the country. However, ASDOH do use long term community service to the underserved + leadership/project potential as a criteria to process their applicants on top of GPA and DAT scores. My original question was why other schools don't put as much emphasis on that in their admissions process.

As of right now, I don't know any school that use a contract based admittance policy.

 

[UCSF2012]

Given the access to dental care issue, why aren't an applicant's willingness and expressed desire to serve the underserved populations, along with demonstrated long term community service more of a factor in dental admissions?

Besides the GPA and DAT scores, why does it seem that this factor doesn't matter as much to dental school admissions? As a health professional, dentists should strive to serve all populations equally. I feel like dental schools are not doing their part to recruit dental students who can contribute more to the society. It doesn't take someone with a 3.4+ or a 20 DAT to be successful in dental school, but it will take a person's desire to help the underserved populations to do so when he or she becomes a dentist, and this desire often does not form AFTER entering dental school.

Sorry about the rant, I am a bit frustrated in seeing people I know who are in dental school because of their high stats, but are selfish individuals and are in it for $ (Good luck if you don't have private dental insurance).



Access to dental care: Solving the problem for underserved populations
http://jada.ada.org/cgi/content/full/135/11/1599

Do your research before complaining about the lack of desire to work in the underserved. What you will find once you do this research, is that there's a reason why some cities have no to few dentists: those cities can't support a dental clinic. There are too few patients within a reasonable surrounding distance to sustain a practice. In many high need cities, you WILL go broke.

 

[MacPreDent]

Given the access to dental care issue, why aren't an applicant's willingness and expressed desire to serve the underserved populations, along with demonstrated long term community service more of a factor in dental admissions?

I recall AADSAS asking about willingness to work in an undeserved community, or at least it was mentioned as one way to stand out. Therefore I wouldn't say it is not taken into consideration.
Having said that, OP what would you do to make more applicants consider working in undeserved areas? Make them promise? Make people sign a contract at the interview that should they get accepted they have to work in such an area?
It's pretty much impossible to do.