Go Caribbean or reapply?

[yankeekd25]

I have applied to the FL schools (MD) this year being a resident for 15+ years. I have been denied without interview from FAU (alma mater) and UCF I've yet to hear from UF, UM, FIU, although at this point I'm not expecting anything.

Stats:
3.85 cgpa, 3.84 sgpa
11,10,9 old mcat, retook twice after 26 both times before
Shadowing over 150 hours
Volunteering at an alzheimers facility leading activities for the residents, ER volunteer, standardized pt (helping present med students train for clinical situations)
TA/Tutor for two years undergrad
Current full time tutor position at private academy for all sciences and maths
Formerly worked with children with autism, teaching them reading, writing, and math.

I will be 28 this year. I took some time out of school to work and save as much money as I could. I have an interview with Ross coming up, but I am truly scared about the outlooks for residencies. I have aspirations of pursuing Cardiology.

What do I do folks? Thanks in advance. (Please forgive grammatical errors- typed from Iphone)

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[Beezlebub]

List the red flags that you conveniently excluded. Also check out DO/reapply next cycle.

 

[yankeekd25]

MCAt retakes, lack of research, poorly written essays, or a possibly bad LOR? I'm not sure. I emailed UCF asking for a review and I'm waiting for their response.

 

[zobay]

I think residency comes from what you make of school. We have a handful of Ross/AUC/SGU grads at my local hospital in different residencies.

 

[Beezlebub]

other than MCAt retakes, lack of research, and a possible bad LOR, I'm not sure. I emailed UCF asking for a review and I'm waiting for their response.

Now we're getting somewhere. also, brah... why did you pursue a person/persons (group) who could have "possibly" written you bad LOR's. Was this LOR thru a committee of idiots or a person you seek out personally?

 

[Beezlebub]

I think residency comes from what you make of school. We have a handful of Ross/AUC/SGU grads at my local hospital in different residencies.

exactly and competitive STEPs thru hard work and the ability to get "insert 4 tiny stars" done. that being said, I'd imagine US schools would have more resources/convenience than caribs. OP should exhaust other options before going moving down the ladder. He has fair stats, but needs to honestly address all his red flags so we can deliberate and offer more informed advice.

 

[yankeekd25]

Now we're getting somewhere. also, brah... why did you pursue a person/persons (group) who could have "possibly" written you bad LOR's. Was this LOR thru a committee of idiots or a person you seek out personally?

It was my human morphology professor who I believed would be a good option. However, after graduating, I heard friends discussing he may have written the same generic letter but just changed the names. But would this be enough to keep me from getting interviews? I have a stellar committee interview and solid letters from other professors and the Cardiologist I shadowed.

 

[Beezlebub]

It was my human morphology professor who I believed would be a good option. However, after graduating, I heard friends discussing he may have written the same generic letter but just changed the names. But would this be enough to keep me from getting interviews? I have a stellar committee interview and solid letters from other professors and the Cardiologist I shadowed.

prob not a significant factor unless he totally dbagged you. regardless, I'd imagine you would not want to take that sort of risk. If possible, I would immediately trash that letter and ask other preceptors for LOR. Also, call the schools that declined you and candidly ask for their feedback on how to improve your application; most likely they will pinpoint important areas for you to focus on. Additionally, the schools that are "ghosting" you, whether intentionally or just did not highlight your application during their process for whatever reason. I'd call them up too b/c you don't really have anything to lose. At the very least they will see a go-getter who is persistent in fighting for his dream. People respect that and they may give you a shot. All the best.

 

[yankeekd25]

prob not a significant factor unless he totally dbagged you. regardless, I'd imagine you would not want to take that sort of risk. If possible, I would immediately trash that letter and ask other preceptors for LOR. Also, call the schools that declined you and candidly ask for their feedback on how to improve your application; most likely they will pinpoint important areas for you to focus on. Importantly, are the schools that are "ghosting" you, whether intentionally or just did not highlight your application during their process. I'd call them up too b/c you don't really have much to lose. At the very least they will see a go-getter who is persistent in fighting for his dream. People respect that and they may give you a shot. All the best.

Thanks for the tips. Assuming I don't get in, I should pursue DO this cycle, although it's quite late? If no acceptances, do I wait another 1.5 years and try to beef up my app and apply again? Or take the Ross route and just start already? I'm not getting any younger lol

 

[Beezlebub]

Thanks for the tips. Assuming I don't get in, I should pursue DO this cycle, although it's quite late? If no acceptances, do I wait another 1.5 years and try to beef up my app and apply again? Or take the Ross route and just start already?

really depends on your circumstances and I do not know enough to make that sort of recommendation. I'd totally choose DO over carib based on statistics alone b/c it's far superior in terms of matching residencies and easier lifestyle in general. Put in an application and apply to as many schools as possible. Your stats are competitive for DO and not sure about MD (do they accept old MCAT)? frankly, I know it's hard to be patient at your age but sometimes we have to look @ bigger picture. that's the whole process of becoming a physician, we need insight and wisdom along with a billion other things. ultimately, this is a big decision and you need to introspect deeply and decide what route you think is best for you.

Have the courage to see clarity and the humility to follow that path.

 

[673441]

I have applied to the FL schools (MD) this year being a resident for 15+ years. I have been denied without interview from FAU (alma mater) and UCF I've yet to hear from UF, UM, FIU, although at this point I'm not expecting anything.

Stats:
3.85 cgpa, 3.84 sgpa
11,10,9 old mcat, retook twice after 26 both times before
Shadowing over 150 hours
Volunteering at an alzheimers facility leading activities for the residents, ER volunteer, standardized pt (helping present med students train for clinical situations)
TA/Tutor for two years undergrad
Current full time tutor position at private academy for all sciences and maths
Formerly worked with children with autism, teaching them reading, writing, and math.

I will be 28 this year. I took some time out of school to work and save as much money as I could. I have an interview with Ross coming up, but I am truly scared about the outlooks for residencies. I have aspirations of pursuing Cardiology.

What do I do folks? Thanks in advance. (Please forgive grammatical errors- typed from Iphone)

You're pretty competitive for DO. Don't do Caribbean with a 30 MCAT...


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[Aonyx]

You're pretty competitive for DO. Don't do Caribbean with a 30 MCAT...


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Absolutely. Unless you have some MAJOR red flags (criminal convictions, or the like) you should have no problem getting into a DO school somewhere, possibly even US MD if you apply broadly enough. Yes you may have to wait another year or more, but the DO route is a much easier (and less uncertain) route than the caribbean for your future career. Would you rather take another 1 or 2 years now and beef up your application or spend 1-2 years after graduating from a caribbean school (with 150K+ in debt) trying to find a residency somewhere (anywhere) because you simply got a below average USMLE score?

You might go to the caribbean and do very well on your boards and have an easier time getting a residency than most, but thats far from guaranteed.

I'm probably biased as a DO student, but statistics are statistics and the Caribbean door is closing (even for the big 4).

 

[yankeekd25]

Thank you all for your extremely helpful feedback and advice. If i choose to reapply to MD schools, what are some that I should shoot for next cycle? I believe there is still some time to apply to DO, which I will get on pronto.

 

[Beezlebub]

Thank you all for your extremely helpful feedback and advice. If i choose to reapply to MD schools, what are some that I should shoot for next cycle? I believe there is still some time to apply to DO, which I will get on pronto.

Are the schools you plan to apply require updated MCAT scores?

 

[yankeekd25]

Are the schools you plan to apply require updated MCAT scores?

I don't have info about next year, but judging on the fact that most school websites say for 2017 cycle, scores before 2014 will not be accepted, it seems like for the 2018 cycle scores before 2015 won't be excepted, which is of course when I took mine. Lol- add another variable to this chaotic mix.

 

[ScottTenorman54]

Thank you all for your extremely helpful feedback and advice. If i choose to reapply to MD schools, what are some that I should shoot for next cycle? I believe there is still some time to apply to DO, which I will get on pronto.

Calculate yourself a LizzyM score and you'll get a range of MD schools you can apply to - https://schools.studentdoctor.net/lizzym_score?reload=1&r=1487954707973
For DO, try the what are my chances threads in the Pre-DO forum, people will make you a shortlist of schools to apply to based on your stats.

One thing's for sure - you gotta apply outside of FL, especially if you want the MD. Only the superstar applicants have the luxury of only needing to apply to 6 or 7 schools total, and even then some of them get shut out.

 

[Beezlebub]

I don't have info about next year, but judging on the fact that most school websites say for 2017 cycle, scores before 2014 will not be accepted, it seems like for the 2018 cycle scores before 2015 won't be excepted, which is of course when I took mine. Lol- add another variable to this chaotic mix.

call schools asap/check their website for requirements so you can plan ahead whether to sit for new MCAT

 

[673441]

.

 

[Somerandomguy1990]

Hi I am new to this forum, I am interested in applying to to a foreign medical school. My science GPA is 2.8 and my overall GPA is 3.0 I have 3 years of research experience. I am currently enrolled in a MPH in environmental health and my GPA is 3.7 I will take the mcat on July. What chances do you guys and girls think I may have?

 

[mcat_taker]

Hi I am new to this forum, I am interested in applying to to a foreign medical school. My science GPA is 2.8 and my overall GPA is 3.0 I have 3 years of research experience. I am currently enrolled in a MPH in environmental health and my GPA is 3.7 I will take the mcat on July. What chances do you guys and girls think I may have?

I really hate these questions. It is so ridiculously dumb to ask anyone to chance you before you take your MCAT which is the single most important variable in getting into medical school besides GPA. Don't even bother asking people how competitive you are until you have a score. Foreign medical schools don't give a **** about research or anything else you've done. They want to know whether you can handle medical school academically, that means GPA and MCAT (especially MCAT because its standardized). Instead of focusing on your chances focus on getting the highest score you can on your MCAT.

 

[bpiccian]

I have applied to the FL schools (MD) this year being a resident for 15+ years. I have been denied without interview from FAU (alma mater) and UCF I've yet to hear from UF, UM, FIU, although at this point I'm not expecting anything.

Stats:
3.85 cgpa, 3.84 sgpa
11,10,9 old mcat, retook twice after 26 both times before
Shadowing over 150 hours
Volunteering at an alzheimers facility leading activities for the residents, ER volunteer, standardized pt (helping present med students train for clinical situations)
TA/Tutor for two years undergrad
Current full time tutor position at private academy for all sciences and maths
Formerly worked with children with autism, teaching them reading, writing, and math.

I will be 28 this year. I took some time out of school to work and save as much money as I could. I have an interview with Ross coming up, but I am truly scared about the outlooks for residencies. I have aspirations of pursuing Cardiology.

What do I do folks? Thanks in advance. (Please forgive grammatical errors- typed from Iphone)

My advice, you sound smart go Caribbean. Don't waste a year because of a name or silly stigma. I have volunteered in 4 hospitals where I have met tons of caribbean docs. Just make sure the school is accredited!

 

[gyngyn]

My advice, you sound smart go Caribbean. Don't waste a year because of a name or silly stigma. I have volunteered in 4 hospitals where I have met tons of caribbean docs. Just make sure the school is accredited!

None of the Caribbean schools are accredited by the LCME.

 

[bpiccian]

None of the Caribbean schools are accredited by the LCME.

Most have AOA accreditation, pretty much same thing though........ All that matters in Caribbean schools get residency matches and you can sit for the boards and at schools like Saba, SGU, Ross, MUA and others they qualify. Long story short you can go there and become a real licensed physician. Don't know why people have these negative stigmas. I'm pretty sure it is illegal to lie and post false residency matches. One more piece of advice, if you want to believe me or other people do your own research and talk to the schools. A lot more accurate than some people on here

 

[gyngyn]

Most have AOA accreditation, pretty much same thing though........ All that matters in Caribbean schools get residency matches and you can sit for the boards and at schools like Saba, SGU, Ross, MUA and others they qualify. Long story short you can go there and become a real licensed physician. Don't know why people have these negative stigmas. I'm pretty sure it is illegal to lie and post false residency matches. One more piece of advice, if you want to believe me or other people do your own research and talk to the schools. A lot more accurate than some people on here

Accreditation by the LCME is not the same. For example, an LCME accredited school with an undisclosed attrition that clearly exceeds 25% would be cited and closed. There is no evaluation or enforcement of US law in the Caribbean. The schools themselves have consistently denied verifiable information regarding both process and outcomes. The only reliable information we have is contained in Charting Outcomes in the Match: http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Charting-Outcomes-IMGs-2016.pdf

http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf
If you look on page 22 of this edition (which contains island-specific data), you will see that graduates of St. Kits/Nevis were more likely not to match into their preferred specialty than match. 85 matched, 103 did not.
No one is saying that matching is impossible, rather that outcomes are not comparable to US schools.

 

[Goro]

The point here isn't that there are successful Carib grads. The point is how many additional obstacles to success you face by going to a Carib school.

The pool of US applicants from the Caribbean is viewed differently by Program Directors. The DDx for a Caribbean grad is pretty off-putting: bad judgment, bad advice, egotism, gullibility, overbearing parents, inability to delay gratification, IA's, legal problems, weak research skills, high risk behavior. This is not to say that all of them still have the quality that drew them into this situation. There is just no way to know which ones they are. Some PD's are in a position where they need to, or can afford to take risks too! So, some do get interviews.

Bad grades and scores are the least of the deficits from a PD's standpoint. A strong academic showing in a Caribbean medical school does not erase this stigma. It fact it increases the perception that the reason for the choice was on the above-mentioned list!

Just about everyone from a Caribbean school has one or more of these problems and PDs know it. That's why their grads are the last choice even with a high Step 1 score.

There was a time when folks whose only flaw was being a late bloomer went Carib, but those days are gone. There are a number of spots at US schools with GPA reinvention for these candidates.

It's likely you'll be in the bottom half or two thirds of the class that gets dismissed before Step 1. The business plan of a Carib school depends on the majority of the class not needing to be supported in clinical rotations. They literally can't place all 250+ of the starting class at clinical sites (educational malpractice, really. If this happened at a US school, they be shut down by LCME or COCA, and sued.

The Carib (and other offshore) schools have very tenuous, very expensive, very controversial relationships with a very small number of US clinical sites. You may think you can just ask to do your clinical rotations at a site near home. Nope. You may think you don't have to worry about this stuff. Wrong.

And let's say you get through med school in the Carib and get what you need out of the various clinical rotation scenarios. Then you are in the match gamble. I don't need to say a word about this - you can find everything you need to know at nrmp.org.

You really need to talk to people who made it through Carib into residency, and hear the story from them. How many people were in their class at the start, how many are in it now? How long did it take to get a residency, and how did they handle the gap year(s) and their student loans? How many residencies did they apply to, how many interviews did they get, and were any of the programs on their match list anything like what they wanted?

A little light reading:

https://milliondollarmistake.wordpress.com/

http://www.tameersiddiqui.com/medical-school-at-sgu

Most have AOA accreditation, pretty much same thing though........ All that matters in Caribbean schools get residency matches and you can sit for the boards and at schools like Saba, SGU, Ross, MUA and others they qualify. Long story short you can go there and become a real licensed physician. Don't know why people have these negative stigmas. I'm pretty sure it is illegal to lie and post false residency matches. One more piece of advice, if you want to believe me or other people do your own research and talk to the schools. A lot more accurate than some people on here

 

[ThoracicGuy]

My advice, you sound smart go Caribbean. Don't waste a year because of a name or silly stigma. I have volunteered in 4 hospitals where I have met tons of caribbean docs. Just make sure the school is accredited!

This advice is.... unwise.

 

[Mikkus]

This advice is.... unwise.

As a Carib grad.... I agree this guy is delusional. ~1500 people a year enter sgu. The match list has 800. Somewhere we lost 700 people...There's a joke or a magic trick hiding in there I'm sure.... go do!

 

[Jloyay]

Do not go to Caribbean or international unless you have absolutely no option. I scratch my head every year at the number of people who jump to different countries without properly assessing where they are at.

 

[ScottTenorman54]

As a Carib grad.... I agree this guy is delusional. ~1500 people a year enter sgu. The match list has 800. Somewhere we lost 700 people...There's a joke or a magic trick hiding in there I'm sure.... go do!

Were all of you able to fit into a lecture hall at the same time?

 

[Mikkus]

Were all of you able to fit into a lecture hall at the same time?

They take two semesters a year, a big one in august with 800 and a smaller one around 550 + in January that seems to change year to year. Remember they also have the Kbt kids too, I believe about 70 a year.

Therefor all students are never in one class at a time. One has class in the am while the other has class in the pm. The main lecture hall can sit about 800; it definitely gets tight.

 

[Somerandomguy1990]

I really hate these questions. It is so ridiculously dumb to ask anyone to chance you before you take your MCAT which is the single most important variable in getting into medical school besides GPA. Don't even bother asking people how competitive you are until you have a score. Foreign medical schools don't give a **** about research or anything else you've done. They want to know whether you can handle medical school academically, that means GPA and MCAT (especially MCAT because its standardized). Instead of focusing on your chances focus on getting the highest score you can on your MCAT.

Well thanks for your answer, I get studies do not give manners and you need some. If you really hate this type of question don't bother answer them then.

 

[673441]

They take two semesters a year, a big one in august with 800 and a smaller one around 550 + in January that seems to change year to year. Remember they also have the Kbt kids too, I believe about 70 a year.

Therefor all students are never in one class at a time. One has class in the am while the other has class in the pm. The main lecture hall can sit about 800; it definitely gets tight.

That's insane... I went to Ross and they had a tri-semester year so I guess it equalized to roughly what you're class was yearly. 320-400 per entrant class. However the number seems to vary quite significantly per semester. I do know the attrition rate on the island was insanely high. Example: we started with 340ish in M1 and finished M2 with roughly 295 (not as bad as some, but still higher than our US counterparts)!

 

[aformerstudent]

This is what I need someone to explain to me. Who exactly is matching from the Caribbean? My first post described my experience at a Caribbean school and I think most people would agree that all of those schools operate the same way. What I don't understand is there are people that do match from these schools and I don't think they are all the best and brightest from these schools. Is it test scores? At a lot of smaller hospitals in the NY and NJ area, almost everybody is from the Caribbean so when someone like me sees that, I would think Caribbean grads do match.

My question is if everyone says don't go to the Caribbean, how do you actually explain all of the ones that match? I'm just curious because I can't figure it out.

I was talking to a friend who was still at my former school and she was telling me how she was planning on getting a 260 on STEP 1 and I was thinking to myself I don't think that is going to happen because this person is not a straight A student and I don't think I have heard of anyone getting a 260 at that school and I don't think the program is structured in a way to help you even get a 260. But this is how the students there think. And she was being completely serious about it too.

I was speaking to a good doctor friend and he said "out of your class [of 50] maybe 10 will match." Some people can just say this with confidence and then the students at the school on the other hand think they all will match. Who's delusional? I'm leaning towards the students but their confidence throws me off at times like maybe they know something I don't know.

I hope this makes sense. In other words maybe what I'm really asking is if we know that it's hard to match from the Caribbean, are the students just brainwashed to believe that is not the case?

 

[673441]

This is what I need someone to explain to me. Who exactly is matching from the Caribbean? My first post described my experience at a Caribbean school and I think most people would agree that all of those schools operate the same way. What I don't understand is there are people that do match from these schools and I don't think they are all the best and brightest from these schools. Is it test scores? At a lot of smaller hospitals in the NY and NJ area, almost everybody is from the Caribbean so when someone like me sees that, I would think Caribbean grads do match.

My question is if everyone says don't go to the Caribbean, how do you actually explain all of the ones that match? I'm just curious because I can't figure it out.

I was talking to a friend who was still at my former school and she was telling me how she was planning on getting a 260 on STEP 1 and I was thinking to myself I don't think that is going to happen because this person is not a straight A student and I don't think I have heard of anyone getting a 260 at that school and I don't think the program is structured in a way to help you even get a 260. But this is how the students there think. And she was being completely serious about it too.

I was speaking to a good doctor friend and he said "out of your class [of 50] maybe 10 will match." Some people can just say this with confidence and then the students at the school on the other hand think they all will match. Who's delusional? I'm leaning towards the students but their confidence throws me off at times like maybe they know something I don't know.

I hope this makes sense. In other words maybe what I'm really asking is if we know that it's hard to match from the Caribbean, are the students just brainwashed to believe that is not the case?

Can't speak for all, but I will tell you this much, I'm not brainwashed. I just literally had no other options... I couldn't see myself in any other career and I exacerbated all efforts to improve my abysmal 1/2nd year of college. Ya, most Caribbean schools are diploma mills. Ya, it's harder to match. Ya, SDN hates us. Either way, you are correct, some will match and some won't. I'm hoping I'm one by making sure I do well on step 1 (which I'm studying for now). Our US counterparts are in a far better situation. PDs will often turn a blind eye to an indiscretion or a slightly sub-par board score if your med school is within the US' confines. I on the other hand, will go into the match on my last strike. PDs interview AMGs to find a reason to not like them whereas us IMGs need to give them a reason to like us.

Edit:
Just read your previous thread... so your assertion that IMGs are brainwashed, does that include your personal experience? Not too sure what this post was asking when you obviously knew the answer from first hand experience. This post seemed troll-esque imo.


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[aformerstudent]

Edit:
Just read your previous thread... so your assertion that IMGs are brainwashed, does that include your personal experience? Not too sure what this post was asking when you obviously knew the answer from first hand experience. This post seemed troll-esque imo.

If you read all of the previous thread you will see that I withdrew. So no I am not brainwashed.

I am referring to all of those who are actually in a similar situation to me who are still at these schools thinking they are going to match and are going to get "260 on Step 1."

Still seems "troll-esque" to you?

 

[673441]

If you read all of the previous thread you will see that I withdrew. So no I am not brainwashed.

I am referring to all of those who are actually in a similar situation to me who are still at these schools thinking they are going to match and are going to get "260 on Step 1."

Still seems "troll-esque" to you?

Yes


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[shouldigomd]

Go to one of the main carib schools (sgu,ross,etc) where you can see the match data for yourself. Sure attrition is probably 20% from start to match but honestly invest the effort and you will do fine. So many people get a 2nd chance in the carib but are unable / unwilling to change their ways. It is expected to have more people fail. If you have your heart set on urology, ortho, optho, derm ... then perhaps carib isn't the best option for you as even with stellar scores it is a doable but very hard hill to climb.

Going carib isn't easy and its a struggle that those who endure it can only realize. But many of us work very hard, are humble, and ready to pounce on any opportunity because we know what it feels like to have none. After interviewing at so many places this year I realized that it isn't the program who makes the doctor ... its you.

 

[673441]

Go to one of the main carib schools (sgu,ross,etc) where you can see the match data for yourself. Sure attrition is probably 20% from start to match but honestly invest the effort and you will do fine. So many people get a 2nd chance in the carib but are unable / unwilling to change their ways. It is expected to have more people fail. If you have your heart set on urology, ortho, optho, derm ... then perhaps carib isn't the best option for you as even with stellar scores it is a doable but very hard hill to climb.

Going carib isn't easy and its a struggle that those who endure it can only realize. But many of us work very hard, are humble, and ready to pounce on any opportunity because we know what it feels like to have none. After interviewing at so many places this year I realized that it isn't the program who makes the doctor ... its you.

Fantastic post!!!


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[Mikkus]

This is what I need someone to explain to me. Who exactly is matching from the Caribbean? My first post described my experience at a Caribbean school and I think most people would agree that all of those schools operate the same way. What I don't understand is there are people that do match from these schools and I don't think they are all the best and brightest from these schools. Is it test scores? At a lot of smaller hospitals in the NY and NJ area, almost everybody is from the Caribbean so when someone like me sees that, I would think Caribbean grads do match.

My question is if everyone says don't go to the Caribbean, how do you actually explain all of the ones that match? I'm just curious because I can't figure it out.

I was talking to a friend who was still at my former school and she was telling me how she was planning on getting a 260 on STEP 1 and I was thinking to myself I don't think that is going to happen because this person is not a straight A student and I don't think I have heard of anyone getting a 260 at that school and I don't think the program is structured in a way to help you even get a 260. But this is how the students there think. And she was being completely serious about it too.

I was speaking to a good doctor friend and he said "out of your class [of 50] maybe 10 will match." Some people can just say this with confidence and then the students at the school on the other hand think they all will match. Who's delusional? I'm leaning towards the students but their confidence throws me off at times like maybe they know something I don't know.

I hope this makes sense. In other words maybe what I'm really asking is if we know that it's hard to match from the Caribbean, are the students just brainwashed to believe that is not the case?

I matched from sgu. There were around 800 people in my incoming anatomy class in m1. 570 in my last class on the island. Remember that includes kbt kids as well in the 570. When I compared the names of the people in the anatomy to the people in pharm, only 66% of the same names were found. Some decelled. Many dropped out. And that doesn't include those who didn't pass step, which was quite a few.

Of those left, assuming they applied for a non competitive specialty and didn't have any red flags, got a spot. It becomes more dicey if you apply to anything other than fm and Im. Or if you are socially inept. Or geographically limited. Or failed something.
Overall, if you get through with no failures and have any social ability, you will get a space. It might be a img mill. It might be in the middle of no where, but you should match. This is what the students your speaking to are most likely thinking. If they don't fail, and play it smart, they should get a spot. The trouble comes when they apply for surgery or anesthesia with no backup. Even a 260 won't guarentee a spot in even a moderately competitive specialty. Because at the end of the day the pd will rank us students first. It's just luck if the list gets far enough down to match the Caribs.

 

[aformerstudent]

I matched from sgu. There were around 800 people in my incoming anatomy class in m1. 570 in my last class on the island. Remember that includes kbt kids as well in the 570. When I compared the names of the people in the anatomy to the people in pharm, only 66% of the same names were found. Some decelled. Many dropped out. And that doesn't include those who didn't pass step, which was quite a few.

Of those left, assuming they applied for a non competitive specialty and didn't have any red flags, got a spot. It becomes more dicey if you apply to anything other than fm and Im. Or if you are socially inept. Or geographically limited. Or failed something.
Overall, if you get through with no failures and have any social ability, you will get a space. It might be a img mill. It might be in the middle of no where, but you should match. This is what the students your speaking to are most likely thinking. If they don't fail, and play it smart, they should get a spot. The trouble comes when they apply for surgery or anesthesia with no backup. Even a 260 won't guarentee a spot in even a moderately competitive specialty. Because at the end of the day the pd will rank us students first. It's just luck if the list gets far enough down to match the Caribs.

Thank you for understanding my question.

I'm also happy to hear that you matched. Any time I look at numbers like that it continues to boggle my mind. I can't speak for SGU students but at least at my school, you had people failing a class or repeating a term thinking they were still going to become cardiologists and surgeons some day hence the brainwashing. I think what you are saying is that becoming a doctor even at SGU is tough to begin with so if that's the case, going to a smaller Caribbean school is pretty much a gamble then.

Even though this idea seems clear, I still won't be convinced until I see the match list from 2019 and 2020. I guess that's how good of a job these schools do in making you think you have every chance to succeed.

 

[ScottTenorman54]

.

 

[673441]

Thank you for understanding my question.

I'm also happy to hear that you matched. Any time I look at numbers like that it continues to boggle my mind. I can't speak for SGU students but at least at my school, you had people failing a class or repeating a term thinking they were still going to become cardiologists and surgeons some day hence the brainwashing. I think what you are saying is that becoming a doctor even at SGU is tough to begin with so if that's the case, going to a smaller Caribbean school is pretty much a gamble then.

Even though this idea seems clear, I still won't be convinced until I see the match list from 2019 and 2020. I guess that's how good of a job these schools do in making you think you have every chance to succeed.

You're right to be skeptical, frankly you have to be nuts not to be! They put out match lists yearly that look fantastic if you're a wide-eyed undergrad student who wants to be a doc but isn't quite as competitive. It seems like a no brainer. Then you start and you realize how these places operate and by then you're balls deep into some heavy debt with even heavier pressure. You can either let the worry and the feelings of self-doubt consume you or you can overcome and power through! You need to truly be the type to stand out to have any fighting chance of survival as an IMG. New talk of mergers and all that jazz doesn't make us feel any more confident at our prospects. Your previous post says that you dropped with a significant debt load and you're in your mid-30s... I'm sorry but that's just as crazy to pursue this path any longer. We can sit here and argue passion/dedication all day long, but when do those things become obsession?


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[aformerstudent]

You're right to be skeptical, frankly you have to be nuts not to be! They put out match lists yearly that look fantastic if you're a wide-eyed undergrad student who wants to be a doc but isn't quite as competitive. It seems like a no brainer. Then you start and you realize how these places operate and by then you're balls deep into some heavy debt with even heavier pressure. You can either let the worry and the feelings of self-doubt consume you or you can overcome and power through! You need to truly be the type to stand out to have any fighting chance of survival as an IMG. New talk of mergers and all that jazz doesn't make us feel any more confident at our prospects. Your previous post says that you dropped with a significant debt load and you're in your mid-30s... I'm sorry but that's just as crazy to pursue this path any longer. We can sit here and argue passion/dedication all day long, but when do those things become obsession?


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Your positive attitude is certainly very admirable and I wish you good luck as you complete the program and move on towards your goal of matching. But I think you're confused that this is somehow about my story vs. your story. A lot of these threads are about people asking if they should apply to the Caribbean and I think you're advice of "powering through" is not the best and a bit lame to be honest. The programs are designed to trip you up (as I pointed out in detail with my first post) so instead of giving a prospective student, mind you someone who has no experience with the Caribbean and how these schools operate, this false idea that they stand some type of statistical chance, it's better to point out more of the negativity and have them decide if any positives outweigh those negatives. Even I am still considering giving this one more shot myself at a better school but I have a lot more information to decide (for myself) if that is something that is realistic or not. But you would really be doing a disservice to an uninformed student by telling them to just work hard.

 

[Mikkus]

Even though this idea seems clear, I still won't be convinced until I see the match list from 2019 and 2020. I guess that's how good of a job these schools do in making you think you have every chance to succeed.

I'm confused. How is a random years match list going to effect anything? why do you think the list would change significantly from year to year? And how are you planning to extrapolate data from a match list having never matched yourself?? " oh this person matched at cleavland clinic, that must be the best Im program in the country!" I didn't understand how to read between the lines on a match list until I matched, and even still I wouldn't put any weight into it.

 

[Nomtastic]

You don't need to go Caribbean with your stats and experiences. When you apply next cycle, just makes sure your essays/secondaries are top notch and you apply broadly to MD/DO schools. You'll be fine. Feel free to message me if you need additional advice about applying. Good luck!!

 

[aformerstudent]

I'm confused. How is a random years match list going to effect anything? why do you think the list would change significantly from year to year? And how are you planning to extrapolate data from a match list having never matched yourself?? " oh this person matched at cleavland clinic, that must be the best Im program in the country!" I didn't understand how to read between the lines on a match list until I matched, and even still I wouldn't put any weight into it.

Was referring to the match list from my school sorry.

 

[Mikkus]

Was referring to the match list from my school sorry.

But... why? You dropped out. You'll have a huge red flag in comparison to those who match. I'm sorry I'm just confused on what you are trying to learn from looking at their match list.

 

[aformerstudent]

But... why? You dropped out. You'll have a huge red flag in comparison to those who match. I'm sorry I'm just confused on what you are trying to learn from looking at their match list.

Yeah I withdrew from the program. I'm saying my choice to withdraw was because I realized I was going to be taking an incredible risk by staying in that program with my stats. There are 46 people in that class still who think they are going to become surgeons, etc. When you get to 2019 and 2020 that's when this class would be up for the match. I still have friends there so I would see the school's list and get more information about who is still there and who isn't there. Data can then be "extrapolated" from that to see how well that class did overall. That might sound mean that I'm looking for people to fail but the reality is most of them will but are oblivious to it right now. And again, that's why I left to take a step back from all of that.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[673441]

Your positive attitude is certainly very admirable and I wish you good luck as you complete the program and move on towards your goal of matching. But I think you're confused that this is somehow about my story vs. your story. A lot of these threads are about people asking if they should apply to the Caribbean and I think you're advice of "powering through" is not the best and a bit lame to be honest. The programs are designed to trip you up (as I pointed out in detail with my first post) so instead of giving a prospective student, mind you someone who has no experience with the Caribbean and how these schools operate, this false idea that they stand some type of statistical chance, it's better to point out more of the negativity and have them decide if any positives outweigh those negatives. Even I am still considering giving this one more shot myself at a better school but I have a lot more information to decide (for myself) if that is something that is realistic or not. But you would really be doing a disservice to an uninformed student by telling them to just work hard.

I appreciate your sentiment, but it isn't my intent to encourage a pre-med to venture down this path. In fact, its just the opposite. I've been PM'ed by numerous pre-meds who I've thoroughly warned. However, its not my job nor yours to convince anyone of anything at all. We are here for the same goal, right? Becoming physicians is the end game here, whether some are fortunate enough to have the stats for acceptance into a US school or some must resort down a more arduous path, the end result is the same. I have changed my tune in recent years with regards to this path as you'd be able to see with my previous posts. One thing I have not changed my mind on is if you are not gunning for competitive specialties and you have great board scores, the statistical likelihood of you matching anywhere is very high! Granted, your overzealous former classmates need a reality check if they think they have equivocal applications to their AMG counterparts... Like I said in my previous posts, understanding your predicament is a step in the right direction. At least then you aren't shooting yourself in the foot applying for a competitive specialty in which IMG's are a statistical outlier.

With regards to a previous statement you made; you said that you would consider entering another Caribbean program... I do hope you understand that is a very, very risky endeavor. You clearly understand the difficulties facing IMG's even when sticking with the Big 3 programs, but why would you consider doing something that only exacerbates your likelihood of medical practice? Also, assuming you see a match list in 2019/2020 and that list is to your liking, what exactly does it prove? Nothing at all. Partaking on the Caribbean medical school route is, and always will be a risk. As long as the LCME is not actively regulating these medical schools, then we will never enjoy the same privileges as our US-Med counterparts. I'd say if you're in your mid-30's maybe aim for a new profession, this is me speaking from a purely objective standpoint (not trying to be spiteful). You have so many barriers ahead, that if you didn't abide by the general path set-forth by your previous school, PD's will question why you jumped from Caribbean medical school-to-Caribbean medical school. Even though you withdrew from the program, it doesn't make a difference one way or the other to them. They don't like to see variability in applications.

Edit: It is NOT impossible to match coming from a Big-3 Caribbean school. It is just difficult... If you would like to see some evidence-based stats, someone conveniently put together this interesting calculator that reveals the statistical likelihood of matching to a specialty given your board scores/activities/etc... The disclaimer at the bottom says that the data has been extrapolated from the NRMP published data as current as of 2016. Play around with it if you'd like.

https://www.memorangapp.com/widget/NRMP-match/

 

[aformerstudent]

Ok, that's a fair argument.

Maybe any arguments for or against the Caribbean really have to be school-specific. I would never compare students at my school to students from lets say SGU considering we have students down there that were rejected or transferred from SGU. I think my argument was stemming more from my frustration at my school and how frustrating it was to be in a program that was clearly designed to weed out aggressively and a program that offered no direction as to where you were and where you were going. But you are right, if you can keep your head down and not focus on any of the negativity and get good or top grades, then it is not unreasonable to think that you will at least match into a non-competitive specialty and that those chances would be relatively more positive than negative. At my school at least, that has to be a very small percentage of each class...quite possibly single digits and I think the same can be said of any second, third, or fourth-tier school. That number is obviously considerably larger at big schools like SGU and Ross but even still what does that say about this whole process of studying in the Caribbean? Sure you and I probably understand this idea better than most but there are people applying right now to go down this route and many more that will come after them that really understand what they are getting into.

I guess I'm just someone who likes certainty and that is something you are not going to find down in the Caribbean