doctorbydefault

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I'm not sure exactly what to do. I received a few acceptances from DO schools and I was also accepted into Ross which is an MD school. I am not all that motivated by the osteopathic philosophy to say that I definitely want to go to a DO school. At at the same time, I'm not all that motivated to go out of the country to a third world country to get my MD. I'm at odds right now and could use some advice on which path I should take. Thanks.
 

NeuroDO

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Since you're not particularly enthused with either option, I'd go to the DO route since you'll most likely get a better education and better residency options that way. This is just my opinion though.
 

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It seems like you already know the answer to your own question buttt I think that you really want that MD degree. If getting an MD degree is that important to you then you should pursue it.
 

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dont be a disgruntled student in DO school if u choose that path. better know what you want before you continue forth.
 

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doctorbydefault said:
I'm not sure exactly what to do. I received a few acceptances from DO schools and I was also accepted into Ross which is an MD school. I am not all that motivated by the osteopathic philosophy to say that I definitely want to go to a DO school. At at the same time, I'm not all that motivated to go out of the country to a third world country to get my MD. I'm at odds right now and could use some advice on which path I should take. Thanks.
I would recommend doing as search on this topic, as it has been discussed extensively. I will discuss a few points:

1. DO's overall have a much higher pass rate on the MD boards than do foreign MD's. In addition, DO's have their own boards, in which they have an even higher pass rate.

2. DO's have a higher acceptance rate into MD residencies overall than foreign MD's. DO's also are able to apply for DO residencies, so the opportunities are much greater.

3. DO's enjoy the same licensure rights as domestic MD's in all states. Foreign MD's cannot be licensed by certain states, and must go through a much more difficult accrediation process that do domestic MD's and DO's.

4. The people who have negative DO's are simply the ones who don't completely understand what they are. DO schools teach the exact same courses as MD schools, and add one more course. There are many DO schools that are national ranked in the top schools overall with MD's. You will not see any Foreign medical schools ranked, because after speaking to residency program directors, you will find that they are often hesitant to accept such applicants.

5. Keep in mind that when discussing "foreign medical grads" I am talking about schools such as in Mexico and the Caribbean that have minimal acceptance standards for students. Many of these schools don't even require an MCAT or a degree. It is because of these substandards that the limitations are true. If you talk about foreign graduates in first world countries such as Britain and Germany, then you will likely get equal training as that in the U.S.

Good luck on whatever decision you make. A good friend of mine is in medical school in Mexico, and enjoys it. He also regrets not considering D.O. schools however, and is hoping to transfer to one.
 

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I'd go to the DO school. From what I hear about foreign MDs, especially Carribean ones, it's A. really really hard to get used to 'island life' and B. hard to even stay in med school! I guess these Carribean schools take a lot of people initially, but the same number doesn't graduate because a lot of people actually fail out. (this is just what I've heard) I'm not saying you will, but I don't like the idea of that. It just seems so business-like. And yeah, you'll probably do better on the boards and get a better residency. There's nothing wrong with being a DO - tell yourself that.
 

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Hello,

Not to offend you or anything... but If I was administration and heard what you said... (Not very fond of their philosophy), I wouldn't even want to take you. Having said that, thats my personal feelings on what you just said. Nothing personal towards you as a person. Maybe it was the wording. Anyhooo...

Here is my knowledge on this topic:

Getting use to the island life is one thing... being in a DO school, you stay in the state. You LEARN everything an MD learn PLUS you learn OMM. Whether thats a plus to you or not, it depends.

DO's require a 1 year osteopathic internship on top of your 3 years residency normally... this was the rule many years ago. However, most hospital offer combined osteopathic internship and residency so that you will only require to do 3 years instead of 4. This is not true for about 5 states, you should go find out which ones.

Foreign MDs are required to do 4 years total regardless... that is what I believe my on-going clinical education dean said, but I could have misheard.. you should find that out as well.

The US govt pays the hospitals for each resident they get. US govt doesn't pay for carribean students. More incentives for hospitals to take US students whether DO or MD over foreign graduates.

With all those 3 factors put into mind, you decide. Please let us know your decision.
 

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OSUdoc08 said:
I would recommend doing as search on this topic, as it has been discussed extensively. I will discuss a few points:

1. DO's overall have a much higher pass rate on the MD boards than do foreign MD's. In addition, DO's have their own boards, in which they have an even higher pass rate.

2. DO's have a higher acceptance rate into MD residencies overall than foreign MD's. DO's also are able to apply for DO residencies, so the opportunities are much greater.

3. DO's enjoy the same licensure rights as domestic MD's in all states. Foreign MD's cannot be licensed by certain states, and must go through a much more difficult accrediation process that do domestic MD's and DO's.

4. The people who have negative DO's are simply the ones who don't completely understand what they are. DO schools teach the exact same courses as MD schools, and add one more course. There are many DO schools that are national ranked in the top schools overall with MD's. You will not see any Foreign medical schools ranked, because after speaking to residency program directors, you will find that they are often hesitant to accept such applicants.

5. Keep in mind that when discussing "foreign medical grads" I am talking about schools such as in Mexico and the Caribbean that have minimal acceptance standards for students. Many of these schools don't even require an MCAT or a degree. It is because of these substandards that the limitations are true. If you talk about foreign graduates in first world countries such as Britain and Germany, then you will likely get equal training as that in the U.S.

Good luck on whatever decision you make. A good friend of mine is in medical school in Mexico, and enjoys it. He also regrets not considering D.O. schools however, and is hoping to transfer to one.
this is largely true. but point #5 needs to be considered more heavily. just to randomly say that DO's fare better on the USMLE and ACGME match than "foreign medical grads" does not really provide much info.

in fact, the most reputable carribbean schools, SGU, Ross, AUC, all boast first-time USMLE pass rates equal to if not better than the average pass rate for first-time osteopathic takers. SGU recently claimed they had a better than 90% first time pass rate and better than 90% first time match rate. Both of those figures are significantly higher than overall DO, USMLE pass rates and ACGME match rates.

http://www.usmle.org/scores/2003perf.htm

in 2003, only 74% of DO first-time test takers even passed the USMLE, compared to 93% of US MD takers, and 65% for IMG's. it varies year to year, but SGU and Ross both claim to be right around 90% making their performance dramatically different from other IMG's.

next, look at ACGME match stats and match lists at both DO schools and schools like Ross and SGU

http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/tables/table2_04.pdf

though DO schools, on average match a higher percentage that "all IMG's" the match rate is short of spectacular, only about 70% of active, that means people that weren't pulled out by AOA, active PGY-1 matches. whereas some of those carib schools seem to claim much higher match rates, pre-match placement and other things.


but again, being a DO you have opportunities to match into AOA programs as well, and you don't have the headahce of where will I be tomorrow for my clinical rotations, and will they be appropriate for obtaining licensure in a particular state, etc.

i think the bottomline is, you can not make any blanket statements regarding which route is better. you definitely can not use statistics.

its got to be an individual decision, what do you think you'd be most happy doing.
 

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PublicEnemy said:
...i think the bottomline is, you can not make any blanket statements regarding which route is better. you definitely can not use statistics. its got to be an individual decision, what do you think you'd be most happy doing.
Agreed.
-WM
 

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Keep in mind that comparing the passing rate of D.Os for the USMLE, to those who attend Carribean schools is somewhat misleading, as many D.O students only study for the COMLEX and take the USMLE without devoting much of their time to specifically study for it. The 5th pathway program in Mexico is considered to be one of the most successful programs in Mexico/Carribean, here is the 2004 match results, very few people matched into competitive residencies.
 

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Not to be critical or anything, but I always question people who say they want to be Doctors yet they care if they have a D.O. or an M.D. behind their name. If you REALLY want to practice medicine, then why does it matter? If you really want the title of MD then why not just go to ROSS? You will be happier in the long run.
 

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There is only ONE kind of medicine, so DO is not different from MD, we all do the same thing. Consider the cost of attending a private DO school as compared to a private foreign school, consider quality of life, consider the location, everything else is pretty much the same I suppose. Schools like Ross, AUC, and SGU will provide decent education. I chose DO because I did not want to be so far away from my parents and because I believe (at least now after many months of doubts) that there is only one kind of medicine and one aim of medicine. Also, the way medicine is nowadays, many people envision another merger between DOs and MDs in the years to come, so stay where you are happy and let the rest fall into place.

Sainttpk said:
Not to be critical or anything, but I always question people who say they want to be Doctors yet they care if they have a D.O. or an M.D. behind their name. If you REALLY want to practice medicine, then why does it matter? If you really want the title of MD then why not just go to ROSS? You will be happier in the long run.
 

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How about neither. Do a post-bacc or whatever is required to fix whatever prevented you from getting into a US MD school. Then reapply.
 

veruca12

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the choice is totally up to you. if you specically want an MD degree then go to the islands. If you want a better future for yourself without limitations then go to a DO school. I don t see any island graduates in yale anesthesia
going to a md island program you are specifically putting limitations on yourself regardless of your board scores you are still third in line for residency prgrams after us md and DOs
if you want an uncompetitive program at a less than average medical program then go to the islands
boards scores are completely irrelevant because the compiled surveys can be biased and it really is based on individual motivation and commitment schools regardless where you go do very little to prep you for the boards
 

Phil Anthropist

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OSUdoc08 said:
DO's overall have a much higher pass rate on the MD boards than do foreign MD's. In addition, DO's have their own boards, in which they have an even higher pass rate.
This is misleading. From my post in another thread w/ some added modifications:
The board pass rates at the major non-AAMC Caribbean schools (i.e. SGU, Ross, AUC, and Saba) are surprisingly high [around 80% for AUC and higher for the others (higher than 90% in some)], if I remember correctly. HOWEVER, these numbers are misleading due to high attrition (read: flunking out) or deceleration (read: getting held back / forced to slow down). I've stated this before, but it is not fair to compare DO passing rates (COMLEX) with MD passing rates. You can argue that some osteopathic schools claim 90%+ pass rates on COMLEX, but when I last checked, the national first time pass rate on the USMLE Step I (the test for allopathic residencies) for the past few years was around 75-80%. Again, some Caribbean schools range from 80-90+ percent (but again, there's the issue of attrition, shelf exams, and deceleration so the numbers are misleading). MDs do not take the COMLEX and are not eligible to do so. Therefore, you cannot evaluate how they would perform on the non-OMM sections of the COMLEX. Bringing up the COMLEX proves little and does not make for good comparisons. The point is that a comparison of Caribbean med students and osteopathic students on the USMLE Step 1 or USMLE vs. COMLEX is not easy or useful to evaluate.
If you are referring to SGU, Ross, AUC and UAG when you say, "Keep in mind that when discussing "foreign medical grads" I am talking about schools such as in Mexico and the Caribbean that have minimal acceptance standards for students," then your statement is not accurate. The pass rates (with the qualifications I've stated above) of these schools are clearly different from the FMG pass rate in general; these schools have much higher pass rates.

OSUdoc08 said:
2. DO's have a higher acceptance rate into MD residencies overall than foreign MD's. DO's also are able to apply for DO residencies, so the opportunities are much greater.
In the first sentence you're addressing the fact that many DOs go into allo residencies (~70%). The second sentence strikes me as odd since (1) this will account for 30% or so of DO grads (by no means the majority) and (2) many DO grads are concerned with the quality and number of some osteopathic residency programs and choose not to apply for these programs for this reason. If you want to argue that DOs match better than FMGs, I'll probably give you that. But nearly 100% of qualified FMG applicants from the major Caribbean schools will obtain US residencies.
OSUdoc08 said:
3. DO's enjoy the same licensure rights as domestic MD's in all states. Foreign MD's cannot be licensed by certain states, and must go through a much more difficult accrediation process that do domestic MD's and DO's.
Not true. I have FMG relatives that have licensure in all 50 states. Again, if you're talking about SGU, Ross, AUC, Saba, etc., this is very misleading. These schools do not have the major licensure issues that you describe (especially the first three). So I don't know what you're referring to when you discuss Foreign MDs from "schools such as in Mexico and the Caribbean that have minimal acceptance standards for students" that cannot be licensed by certain states. The hardest states for licensure are New York, California, and Texas. Licensure for all of these states, except TX, is pretty much a sure thing. For Texas, proper rotations (e.g., abiding by the neurology and family practice guidelines) need to be performed to prove "educational equivalency." I'm not sure which ForeignMDs and which states you're referring to. For a difference of opinion, you may want to ask the mods in the IMG forums for their perspective. I do not think that licensure is as difficult as you describe. During Vietnam, the United States took myriad FMGs in the dire time of need. A very high percentage of FMGs are practicing physicians in the US. It is unfair to stereotype these FMGs as second rate doctors. I have many relatives and close family friends that went to foreign medical institutions. Many went on to be Chief Residents for hospitals associated with medical institutions like Columbia and some are directors of fellowship and residency programs (including highly competitive programs like radiology) in major hospitals.
OSUdoc08 said:
4. The people who have negative DO's are simply the ones who don't completely understand what they are. DO schools teach the exact same courses as MD schools, and add one more course. There are many DO schools that are national ranked in the top schools overall with MD's. You will not see any Foreign medical schools ranked, because after speaking to residency program directors, you will find that they are often hesitant to accept such applicants.
I agree with the first half ot this. I disagree with the second half. First of all, I don't know what you mean when you're talking about rankings.

(1) US News and World Report has two rankings: Primary Care and Research. Your comments only apply to the Primary Care rankings. And honestly, I think the arbitrary criteria of the Primary Care rankings AND the Research rankings are pretty useless.

(2) Since you are more than likely referring to the Primary Care rankings, your statement holds little water. Caribbean schools match into Primary Care fields easily. In fact, one of the arguments against going to the Caribbean is that "it's more likely that you'll end up in primary care." So I don't understand where you're going with these Primary Care rankings.

(3) Caribbean schools not being ranked has NOTHING to do with Residency Program directors. All Foreign medical schools are by definition not in the United States. The US News Rankings rank only United States medical schools. Even the best medical schools in Asia, Europe, and the Middle East are not going to show up in the US News rankings--even if these are on par with the best US med schools.
OSUdoc08 said:
5. Keep in mind that when discussing "foreign medical grads" I am talking about schools such as in Mexico and the Caribbean that have minimal acceptance standards for students. Many of these schools don't even require an MCAT or a degree. It is because of these substandards that the limitations are true. If you talk about foreign graduates in first world countries such as Britain and Germany, then you will likely get equal training as that in the U.S.
Could you provide some examples--I don't understand what schools you are referring to. While many US medical schools prefer a baccalaureate degree, US med schools do not always require baccalaureate degrees (check the MSAR). So let's not even bring up the arguments of the Hartford Courant's notorious, misleading article. British and German medical students do not do their clinicals exclusively in the US like the major Caribbean med schools' students do. If I had to go the foreign route and was given the option of Germany/Britain and the Caribbean as a means to practice in the US, I would go the Caribbean route without thinking twice. The US clinicals and opportunities of making connections and auditioning would outweigh the German/British training, in my opinion. You imply that Caribbean grads aren't getting equal training, I disagree with this. Because these students at the major Caribbean schools (not the shady, diploma mill schools with major licensure problems) do their clinicals exclusively in the United States, they are getting similar training to US medical students. Take a look at the clinical affiliations--many of these are excellent US hospitals. The students are limited by two main factors:

(1) the inherent disadvantage in the residency match b/c they are foreign medical students and are often seen as secondary to both their US allo and osteo counterparts

(2) lack of freedom for electives that US students often have

When the time comes for me to send in my first application, I may apply to a few osteopathic schools. I do not intend to apply to ANY foreign medical schools, but I do think the picture you're painting of these schools is inaccurate.

Phil
 

fun8stuff

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doctorbydefault said:
I'm not sure exactly what to do. I received a few acceptances from DO schools and I was also accepted into Ross which is an MD school. I am not all that motivated by the osteopathic philosophy to say that I definitely want to go to a DO school. At at the same time, I'm not all that motivated to go out of the country to a third world country to get my MD. I'm at odds right now and could use some advice on which path I should take. Thanks.
If I were in your situation, I would go DO in a heartbeat.
 

Phil Anthropist

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veruca12 said:
the choice is totally up to you. if you specically want an MD degree then go to the islands. If you want a better future for yourself without limitations then go to a DO school. I don t see any island graduates in yale anesthesia
going to a md island program you are specifically putting limitations on yourself regardless of your board scores you are still third in line for residency prgrams after us md and DOs
if you want an uncompetitive program at a less than average medical program then go to the islands
boards scores are completely irrelevant because the compiled surveys can be biased and it really is based on individual motivation and commitment schools regardless where you go do very little to prep you for the boards
First of all, anesthesia's competitiveness varies from year to year. In many years, it is not considered a competitive specialty.

But some examples:

SGU matched Stanford and U Washington Anesthesia in 2004.
Ross matched Mayo Anesthesia (FL branch) in 2003.
AUC matched Yale Anesthesia in 2003.
Saba matched Wisconsin in 2003.

Anomalous? Sure.
Impossible? No.

I have tremendous respect for DOs. The best PM&R physician I have ever met was a DO and his OMM training was a huge advantage because of the manual training he received. It was a privilege to have the opportunity to shadow him. I even had a high school classmate that got into a horrible car accident. She was given a less than 50% chance of survival and was expected to have permanent brain injury. In just over one year working with this DO, she reached almost complete recovery. Obviously it wasn't all the DO's doing as many factors went into it, but my friend's case was referred to him because he was the best.

But why are we so negative toward FMGs and people's personal preferences? Why do we make sweeping generalizations about less than average residency programs? Is it so hard to understand that in the end we're all trying to do the same thing? If someone wants an MD and is not willing to go the DO route, do we have to be so overly critical? I don't understand...
 

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I would recomend going to Ross. The last thing Osteopathy needs is DO's who are closet MD's to dilute our profession.
 

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doctorbydefault,
If you really want to be an MD, then go for the MD. If you don't want to go out of the country to do it, work on improving your application (like doing a post-bac, as mentioned by a previous poster) so that you can get into a U.S. MD school. Whatever degree you choose to pursue, you will be having those 2 letters (whichever it is) for the rest of your life. Choose what will make you happy :D instead of what will make you regret :( . If it will take a couple of more years, then so be it. Good luck with whatever you decide to pursue :luck:
 

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Shodddy18 said:
The last thing Osteopathy needs is DO's who are closet MD's to dilute our profession.
Now where's that vomiting smiley when I need one?
 

sia_simba

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Shoddy18... its funny you said "closet MDs" hehehe..


anyhow.. this is a quote taken..

"in fact, the most reputable carribbean schools, SGU, Ross, AUC, all boast first-time USMLE pass rates equal to if not better than the average pass rate for first-time osteopathic takers. SGU recently claimed they had a better than 90% first time pass rate and better than 90% first time match rate. Both of those figures are significantly higher than overall DO, USMLE pass rates and ACGME match rates. "

Just to clarify for everyone to know, 90% first time pass rate is very high... but people should know that its 90% of the 300 students who opt to take it. Remember that SGU has 2 term giving them total of 600 students per year. The other half aren't even eligible to take it. How do I know??? Because one of my friend goes to SGU and I went with him to their acceptance info session and privately asked the lecturer when he bost about their pass rate. He was reluctant to tell us but thats what he saids.
 

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If your not that gungho about it stay far away from ROSS They get rid of students real quick even some who are very gungho......they weed em out. Save your self the trouble. And living down there, thats a totally differant story

Deffinetly in your situitation stay stateside and go DO. You will face much less agrivation in the long run
 

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sia_simba said:
Just to clarify for everyone to know, 90% first time pass rate is very high... but people should know that its 90% of the 300 students who opt to take it. Remember that SGU has 2 term giving them total of 600 students per year. The other half aren't even eligible to take it. How do I know??? Because one of my friend goes to SGU and I went with him to their acceptance info session and privately asked the lecturer when he bost about their pass rate. He was reluctant to tell us but thats what he saids.
There is no doubt that the percentage is somewhat misleading. I'll acknowlege that. SGU has a two term system for entry-- you are correct. However, the students who start in January, as opposed to August, enter the residency match one year later than their fellow SGU students who entered one term earlier, in August. It's not like 50% of the students are getting shafted and are unable to take the USMLE Step I; they are simply taking it later (which one can expect considering they entered later). That is my (possibly incorrect) understanding. But again, I acknowledge that the number is misleading.

And I'd also like to give a :thumbup: to calichik and Public Enemy's respectable posts.

doctorbydefault-- If you are determined to get into a US allo school, you might want to consider a postbac program (like JKDmed recommended). Check out the postbac forum for more details. Rosalind Franklin's program, while expensive, is the best route to take if you want to get into a US allo med school ASAP. Also, I hope your name doesn't imply that medicine was "chosen" for you (by parent-brainwashing, etc.). There are many excellent reasons to enter into allopathic or osteopathic medicine, but don't go because it's expected by you from others.

Good luck
 

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You should be a rock star. Forget about medicine all together. If your title is that important to you, go for the next American Idol. Rock Star trumps MD or DO anyday....

Just be happy that you got into medical school, period. There are plenty of people that CAN'T WAIT to take your seat, even if it's in a DO school. What you should do is go on the re-applicant thread and get their opinion.

Go with what makes you happy in the end...
 

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personally, I feel any DO school in the states is better than any MD school in the Caribbean
 

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Obviously by the title, I am a DO already. I am an intern in IM in Oklahoma. I realize that this infomation is anecdotal, but just think about it. There are exactly 5 MDs (three PGY 1s and two PGY 2s) in our program who went to school in the Carribbean. Four out of the five would have GLADLY went to a DO school if they had been accepted. In fact, these four guys freely admit it. The last guy is from Florida, and rejected an invitation from NSU to go to Ross. He feels better about himself that he is Joe Blow, MD instead of Joe Blow, DO. ANd I say more power to him. But think about the other guys who would have gladly went to a DO school and NOT left the country.......
 

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dr_almondjoy_do said:
You should be a rock star. Forget about medicine all together. If your title is that important to you, go for the next American Idol. Rock Star trumps MD or DO anyday....

Just be happy that you got into medical school, period. There are plenty of people that CAN'T WAIT to take your seat, even if it's in a DO school. What you should do is go on the re-applicant thread and get their opinion.

Go with what makes you happy in the end...
Wow, what is with all the hostility against people wanting an "MD"?

Anyhow, I considered Ross and St Georges a few years ago... but decided to pursue a Masters and take one more shot at an american progam (heheh, which I did just get into). From what I understand, both of their curriculums are actually quite good and their graduates match up over 90% with american residencies in their first year. Both of their programs conduct their 3rd/4th year clinicals entirely in the United States (at hospitals in NY and MD, even)... though some students elect to train in England.

The only hiccup I know of... is that you really need to make certain that you'll score well on your boards. One of my friends (who went to one of those carribean schools) barely passed his USMLE's. He tried to obtain an internal medicine residency but didn't end up matching. Sigh, he had to undergo a hellish 24 hour trial of faxing out his CV to hospitals throughout the country before eventually landing a family practice residency in Alabama.

You won't face that sort of "do-or-die" situation if you go with an american DO program.
 

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I have two friends who are at Ross right now. I'm just jealous of the weather they get, but I personally did not want to leave the country. Ross is one of the better schools of the Caribbean bunch and they do have affiliations with Florida universities/hospitals for their clinical years (am I correct?). Another friend of mine is at American Univ. of the Caribbean (or something like that, forgot the exact name) and he says the administration there really doesn't help or care about the students so those who are having difficulty and are likely to not make it thru the first year are not provided with support. It's all on you. But then again, it's not like other med schools here and abroad take you by the hand and stuff so I'm not sure what he meant. Like everyone here is saying... I think you have a gut feeling of whether you want to get that MD or if DO is the way to go. You could compare the DO schools you've been accepted to and see how they compare to Ross, academically statistically socially , etc...
Best of luck.
 

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doctorbydefault said:
I'm not sure exactly what to do. I received a few acceptances from DO schools and I was also accepted into Ross which is an MD school. I am not all that motivated by the osteopathic philosophy to say that I definitely want to go to a DO school. At at the same time, I'm not all that motivated to go out of the country to a third world country to get my MD. I'm at odds right now and could use some advice on which path I should take. Thanks.
I haven't read any further in the post than the above original post.

In my opinion, you shouldn't even consider Osteopathic medicine if you are "not all that motivated by the Osteopathic philosophy."

If you haven't already, dive further into the philosophy and practice of Osteopathic medicine. Search the internet, read books, speak with DO's and MD's alike. If after all of this you are still "not all that motivated by the Osteopathic philosophy," then I say go to Ross.

Save yourself the aggravation of studying something (OMM) that you don't believe in only because you want to be a Doctor. I see this all of the time here at PCOM.

If, on the other hand, you find you become interested in DO's then go for it.

Either way, you have to do what you feel is right. Not which way will be the easier route.

Just my opinion.

Chisel
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anyways, just know that whenever someone asks a doctor "what type of doctor are you?" the answer is not "oh, I'm an MD or DO." The smart non ignorant professional doctors are way past that and instead would say "oh, Im a gyno, or emergency doc, or dermatologist, or internist, or blah blah" no doctor is low or stupid enough to just say MD or DO thats totally unprofessional and seriously not a smart topic of conversation.

the question you should ask is not MD or DO, but which schools and residency placement or whether or not you want to include omm into that specialty. understand? :idea:
peace out
 

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OSUdoc08 said:
I would recommend doing as search on this topic, as it has been discussed extensively. I will discuss a few points:

1. DO's overall have a much higher pass rate on the MD boards than do foreign MD's. In addition, DO's have their own boards, in which they have an even higher pass rate.

2. DO's have a higher acceptance rate into MD residencies overall than foreign MD's. DO's also are able to apply for DO residencies, so the opportunities are much greater.

3. DO's enjoy the same licensure rights as domestic MD's in all states. Foreign MD's cannot be licensed by certain states, and must go through a much more difficult accrediation process that do domestic MD's and DO's.

4. The people who have negative DO's are simply the ones who don't completely understand what they are. DO schools teach the exact same courses as MD schools, and add one more course. There are many DO schools that are national ranked in the top schools overall with MD's. You will not see any Foreign medical schools ranked, because after speaking to residency program directors, you will find that they are often hesitant to accept such applicants.

5. Keep in mind that when discussing "foreign medical grads" I am talking about schools such as in Mexico and the Caribbean that have minimal acceptance standards for students. Many of these schools don't even require an MCAT or a degree. It is because of these substandards that the limitations are true. If you talk about foreign graduates in first world countries such as Britain and Germany, then you will likely get equal training as that in the U.S.

Good luck on whatever decision you make. A good friend of mine is in medical school in Mexico, and enjoys it. He also regrets not considering D.O. schools however, and is hoping to transfer to one.
I don't agree with the part in bold above. I found that Residencies find Large amount of motivation in students from the carribeans (st.george and ross) because they are down there because they had no other choice and when they are down there they are so much more determined ot become doctors because of the struggle. Through struggle comes strength and residency programs look at your motivation. Many have said that they like st.george kids because they tend to have more motivationa and enthusiasm when they apply to residencies showing they are still in the run for becoming a doctor.. one doc said ofter times he says students who are form the states take it for granted what kind of opportunity they have because they don't see the struggle that may come with it...or the other side of going to the carribeans.. the carribean student has almost a sort of "i can't believe im here, i gotta do this now," i spoke iwth numerous people from st. george and they all feel this the day they get there. then after that day they are 200% into getting a degree. Think about it, it's freaking paradise there, and they still stay focused cause they realize they are there to become something at no costs.
I would say you decide.. which ever way u decide, DO-dont' take anything for granted and Carribean - well you'll the great motivation there when u get there. whichever one u choose keep these things in mind and you'll be fine..
 

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sbp26 said:
I don't agree with the part in bold above. I found that Residencies find Large amount of motivation in students from the carribeans (st.george and ross) because they are down there because they had no other choice and when they are down there they are so much more determined ot become doctors because of the struggle. Through struggle comes strength and residency programs look at your motivation. Many have said that they like st.george kids because they tend to have more motivationa and enthusiasm when they apply to residencies showing they are still in the run for becoming a doctor.. one doc said ofter times he says students who are form the states take it for granted what kind of opportunity they have because they don't see the struggle that may come with it...or the other side of going to the carribeans.. the carribean student has almost a sort of "i can't believe im here, i gotta do this now," i spoke iwth numerous people from st. george and they all feel this the day they get there. then after that day they are 200% into getting a degree. Think about it, it's freaking paradise there, and they still stay focused cause they realize they are there to become something at no costs.
I would say you decide.. which ever way u decide, DO-dont' take anything for granted and Carribean - well you'll the great motivation there when u get there. whichever one u choose keep these things in mind and you'll be fine..
The standards for acceptance at caribbean schools are WAY below US medical schools, including DO schools. Many don't even require the MCAT and just want you to pass your classes. The schools mentioned above also have this "less than strict policy."

You will find that a large number of the students at these schools could not get into either DO or MD schools in the US for a given number of reasons.

I'm sorry, but how can such a school put out as good of a product as the nationally ranked DO schools that have perfect pass rates on boards and exceptional residency placement at top tier institutions?
 

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doctorbydefault said:
I'm not sure exactly what to do. I received a few acceptances from DO schools and I was also accepted into Ross which is an MD school. I am not all that motivated by the osteopathic philosophy to say that I definitely want to go to a DO school. At at the same time, I'm not all that motivated to go out of the country to a third world country to get my MD. I'm at odds right now and could use some advice on which path I should take. Thanks.

Reapply.

Ross = subpar
DO Schools = subpar
 

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Chisel

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xadmin said:
Reapply.

Ross = subpar
DO Schools = subpar

Define "subpar."

I love how people automatically discount options that don't include Allopathic schools in the US.

Find some security in where you are and keep the ridiculous opinions to yourself.

To be a good physician it takes time and hard work. This is true whether you are an MD, DO, or an internationally trained physician.

Chisel
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Chisel said:
Define "subpar."

I love how people automatically discount options that don't include Allopathic schools in the US.

Find some security in where you are and keep the ridiculous opinions to yourself.

To be a good physician it takes time and hard work. This is true whether you are an MD, DO, or an internationally trained physician.

Chisel
PCOM MSIII
Chisel u hit it right on the mark!!! :) Regardless of degree, ur patients will ultimately define ur reputation. If u have a bunch of sick patients that get sicker, then everyone even ur family will prolly think ur a bad doc. Dont matter if ur foreign, MD, DO, etc. So then, it's entirely an ego thing. So if u need that MD..... :confused:
 

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OSUdoc08 said:
The standards for acceptance at caribbean schools are WAY below US medical schools, including DO schools. Many don't even require the MCAT and just want you to pass your classes. The schools mentioned above also have this "less than strict policy."

You will find that a large number of the students at these schools could not get into either DO or MD schools in the US for a given number of reasons.

I'm sorry, but how can such a school put out as good of a product as the nationally ranked DO schools that have perfect pass rates on boards and exceptional residency placement at top tier institutions?
A little more broad generalizations. Yes you are partially right. But when you compare to the best of the Caribbean Schools (St. George's) their admissions stats are NOT that low. SGU's average incoming GPA is around a 3.4 and 27 GPA. Not too far off of many Osteopathic schools.

Personally I've applied to all three schools. I've been accepted to COMP and recently interviewed (yes they do interviews) at St. Georges. With my numbers, I am most likely counting on getting into St. George's. While I haven't made up my mind on where to attend, you just can't dismiss that St. George is a good Caribbean school.

to the OP. My personal belief is that you should consider this only if you got into SGU. I would do DO over Ross.
 

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mdsh00 said:
A little more broad generalizations. Yes you are partially right. But when you compare to the best of the Caribbean Schools (St. George's) their admissions stats are NOT that low. SGU's average incoming GPA is around a 3.4 and 27 GPA. Not too far off of many Osteopathic schools.

Personally I've applied to all three schools. I've been accepted to COMP and recently interviewed (yes they do interviews) at St. Georges. With my numbers, I am most likely counting on getting into St. George's. While I haven't made up my mind on where to attend, you just can't dismiss that St. George is a good Caribbean school.

to the OP. My personal belief is that you should consider this only if you got into SGU. I would do DO over Ross.
If u dont mind staying in another country for 4 years then SGU is a reputable medical school. U really have to consider what ur getting urself into OP. DO/MD is same by liscencing, law, etc. I applied to all schools like the above poster. I decided that caribean is not an option. THINK CAREFULLY. ;)
 

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PJ1120 said:
If u dont mind staying in another country for 4 years then SGU is a reputable medical school. U really have to consider what ur getting urself into OP. DO/MD is same by liscencing, law, etc. I applied to all schools like the above poster. I decided that caribean is not an option. THINK CAREFULLY.
This is not the case. The first two years are spent offshore, but most students spend their last two years exclusively in the US (typically New York and New Jersey). The students have the option of going to Europe (especially England) and Grenada (hardly any do this except for the natives) if they choose to.

mdsh00 said:
A little more broad generalizations. Yes you are partially right. But when you compare to the best of the Caribbean Schools (St. George's) their admissions stats are NOT that low. SGU's average incoming GPA is around a 3.4 and 27 GPA. Not too far off of many Osteopathic schools.

Personally I've applied to all three schools. I've been accepted to COMP and recently interviewed (yes they do interviews) at St. Georges. With my numbers, I am most likely counting on getting into St. George's. While I haven't made up my mind on where to attend, you just can't dismiss that St. George is a good Caribbean school.

to the OP. My personal belief is that you should consider this only if you got into SGU. I would do DO over Ross.
I agree with most of your post. However, SGU is quite different from the other popular Caribbean med schools. And even at SGU, deceleration is not uncommon. Schools like Ross and AUC tend to have lower admissions standards (note: this doesn't mean that these schools can't provide a solid education or that these schools can't produce good physicians), the attrition rates are significantly higher and the MCAT/GPA averages are lower. Some academically questionable students are accepted and given the chance to pursue their dreams, but many of them are not ready (hence, the appreciable attrition). Are these schools giving premeds a chance to turn their lives around or are these schools exploiting desperate premeds who should not have been accepted? Probably quite a bit of both.

I've posted quite a few times in this thread defending Caribbean schools/foreign medical schools. I know you said you haven't decided, but for the most part, COMP matches better than SGU--especially in California (see the Residency Match lists posted on the Sticky thread above). I'd venture to say that COMP has better residency placement in California than many non-Californian allopathic schools in the US.

IMHO, let this thread die unless the OP still needs additional input. I think we're all getting pretty tired of the MD/DO debates. :p
 

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frank51 said:
Can you provide a link.
I haven't heard those numbers, but 3.4/27 isn't outside the realm of possibility. The numbers would mean that the average GPA and MCAT scores have gone up 0.1 and 1, respectively, over the past four years. This is from four years ago:

North American Students: Fall of 2001 Freshmen

Average MCAT
Verbal Reasoning 8
Physical Science 9
Biological Science 9

Average GPA
Undergraduate 3.3
Science Undergraduate 3.2
Graduate 3.6

Source: http://www.sgu.edu/nhome.nsf/0/7F3B94AD4A8207AC85256B6C00611C14?open&top=med

Hope we're done here...

*crosses fingers and toes*
 

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Phil Anthropist said:
I know you said you haven't decided, but for the most part, COMP matches better than SGU--especially in California (see the Residency Match lists posted on the Sticky thread above). I'd venture to say that COMP has better residency placement in California than many non-Californian allopathic schools in the US.
I think what is making it hard for me is that I am pretty gung-ho for either IM or Cardio (and I know the latter is hard no matter what). I wouldn't mind doing my residency outside of CA.
 

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mdsh00 said:
I think what is making it hard for me is that I am pretty gung-ho for either IM or Cardio (and I know the latter is hard no matter what). I wouldn't mind doing my residency outside of CA.
Gotcha. Well, it seems all these Californians are gung-ho about going back to Cali. You probably already know this, but Cardiology is a fellowship of Internal Medicine; you apply for Cardiology while you're in IM. So if you're looking at IM or Cardiology, you get IM either way. :D SGU and COMP are both reasonable routes for getting into solid IM programs. The biggest disadvantage of going the Caribbean route is the difficulty of getting into highly competitive residency programs (ortho, ENT, ophthalmology, derm, rad onc, rads, urology, etc.). But since fellowships come after the Internal Medicine residency (one of the easier types of residency programs to obtain, even though some specific IM programs are extremely competitive), foreign grads tend to fare better for competitive fellowships (e.g., GI and cardiology). Anyway, good luck. :)
 

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I don't think that anyone can argue whether or not Saint George's is a great school.

They recently revamped their website, and the new statistics are up as well:

What are the average MCAT scores and GPAs*?
Average MCAT Average GPA
Verbal Reasoning 8 Undergraduate 3.2
Physical Science 8 Science Undergraduate 3.1
Biological Science 8 Graduate 3.5
*Registered Freshmen, Fall 2004; North American Matriculated Students

The admissions statistics don't matter. SGU has a great reputation and a proven-track record (90% average on the boards).

FYI, the link: http://www.sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.nsf/Medicine/faqsmed.htm
 

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It is true that COMP has a large percentage of its graduates matching in CA (virtually all), but the quality of the programs was honestly not too appealing - very few grads getting into USC, UCLA, UCSF, Stanford, etc. For the most part, they matched into community hospitals throughout CA, and a large portion of those were osteopathic as well (ex. Arrowhead Regional Medical Center). COMP has a good OPTI network, but personally, I want to match into a university academic center (ACGME-approved); if it's in CA great, and if not, that's fine by me.
 

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LVDoc said:
It is true that COMP has a large percentage of its graduates matching in CA (virtually all), but the quality of the programs was honestly not too appealing - very few grads getting into USC, UCLA, UCSF, Stanford, etc. For the most part, they matched into community hospitals throughout CA, and a large portion of those were osteopathic as well (ex. Arrowhead Regional Medical Center). COMP has a good OPTI network, but personally, I want to match into a university academic center (ACGME-approved); if it's in CA great, and if not, that's fine by me.
What's wrong with osteopathic matched residencies? Remember a physician's success is based upon the health of his/her patients and not the school/residency program they came from. :D