Going MD instead of DO for top specialities?

[mariposas905]

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Is it still reasonable to take gap years to get into MD (even when you can get into a DO easily) if you want to get into a top speciality? Such as derm, ortho, ophthalmology etc

 

[deleted480308]

Is it still reasonable to take gap years to get into MD (even when you can get into a DO easily) if you want to get into a top speciality? Such as derm, ortho, ophthalmology etc

The tough question is if you can't outcompete premeds trying to get into MD schools, what makes you think you'll outcompete all those MD students in 4 yrs?

It's harsh but it's something you need to hash out before you lose $200k on a gap year

 

[mariposas905]

The tough question is if you can't outcompete premeds trying to get into MD schools, what makes you think you'll outcompete all those MD students in 4 yrs?

It's harsh but it's something you need to hash out before you lose $200k on a gap year

Are you saying yes, it is difficult to go from a DO school to a competitive speciality? What do you mean by out-compete MD students? DOs have their own derm or ortho residencies for just DO students is what I heard...

 

[ChymeofPassion]

Are you saying yes, it is difficult to go from a DO school to a competitive speciality? What do you mean by out-compete MD students? DOs have their own derm or ortho residencies for just DO students is what I heard...

He's saying that its likely the students that are matching to really competitive specialties don't need to take a gap year to get into MD.

 

[kubyx]

I would take a gap year if it guaranteed me MD. But, there are no guarantees in life, so I would not do it.

I'm pretty well-entrenched into the DO process by this point, and I would be super happy to get into either DO or MD school, but MD certainly conveys many advantages, and this is one example.

 

[deleted103644]

The tough question is if you can't outcompete premeds trying to get into MD schools, what makes you think you'll outcompete all those MD students in 4 yrs?

It's harsh but it's something you need to hash out before you lose $200k on a gap year

Getting into medical school is harder than getting through medical school, with the exception of the Caribbean schools.

If you think a year would really help you get an MD instead of a DO, do it. You'll get a different line here, but those letters really are a negative factor in future earning potential and career options (few hundred K sounds about right).

For most residency programs, the two most important criteria are where you go to school and your Step 1 score. Depending on specialty, some places prefer competitive caribbean grads to DOs.

Competitive surgical subspecialties and dermatology may require research and AOA too. (And obviously top programs in almost any specialty will be competitive.)

 

[Goro]

Is it still reasonable to take gap years to get into MD (even when you can get into a DO easily) if you want to get into a top speciality? Such as derm, ortho, ophthalmology etc

Going MD will open more doors for you.

But just because you have the MD, it doesn't mean that you can waltz into those specialties...they're competitive for a reason.

 

[gyngyn]

Is it still reasonable to take gap years to get into MD (even when you can get into a DO easily) if you want to get into a top speciality? Such as derm, ortho, ophthalmology etc

You can have a perfect ERAS application from a fine MD school and fail to match into the specialties you listed.
DO's have historically had their own residencies in these fields that were restricted to DO candidates. That will no longer be the case after 2020, but there is speculation that the PD's at the formerly DO programs would have a soft spot for DO's after the merger.

If you would not be content unless you match at one of these, step back a bit before committing to this process.

 

[deleted480308]

Getting into medical school is harder than getting through medical school, with the exception of the Caribbean schools.

If you think a year would really help you get an MD instead of a DO, do it. You'll get a different line here, but those letters really are a negative factor in future earning potential and career options (few hundred K sounds about right).

For most residency programs, the two most important criteria are where you go to school and your Step 1 score. Depending on specialty, some places prefer competitive caribbean grads to DOs.

Competitive surgical subspecialties and dermatology may require research and AOA too. (And obviously top programs in almost any specialty will be competitive.)

I agree getting in is harder than graduating. I disagree with the implication that getting in is harder than pulling a 250 and matching optho.....

The folks needing a gap year to try and avoid DO are poor bets to be top of their class in MD schools. There are outliers and all that but odds are that's a poor bet for $200k

 

[deleted103644]

I agree getting in is harder than graduating. I disagree with the implication that getting in is harder than pulling a 250 and matching optho.....

The folks needing a gap year to try and avoid DO are poor bets to be top of their class in MD schools. There are outliers and all that but odds are that's a poor bet for $200k

Anyone with a reasonable IQ/test taking skills and a year to study can get a 250.

Getting into medical school requires all sorts of other intangibles and things that a dedicated year of studying won't get you. MCAT scores are only a piece, for residency USMLE is close to the whole thing. (It's also in many ways a conceptually easier test, just a ton of memorization.)

 

[Lawpy]

I agree getting in is harder than graduating. I disagree with the implication that getting in is harder than pulling a 250 and matching optho.....

The folks needing a gap year to try and avoid DO are poor bets to be top of their class in MD schools. There are outliers and all that but odds are that's a poor bet for $200k

Anyone with a reasonable IQ/test taking skills and a year to study can get a 250.

Getting into medical school requires all sorts of other intangibles and things that a dedicated year of studying won't get you. MCAT scores are only a piece, for residency USMLE is close to the whole thing. (It's also in many ways a conceptually easier test, just a ton of memorization.)

I thought it's harder to score in the top percentile for Step 1 than for MCAT. Simply because the test taker pool for Step 1 is generally smarter and works harder than the test taker pool for the MCAT.

 

[Lawpy]

You can have a perfect ERAS application from a fine MD school and fail to match into the specialties you listed.

How does this happen exactly?

 

[deleted103644]

I thought it's harder to score in the top percentile for Step 1 than for MCAT. Simply because the test taker pool for Step 1 is generally smarter and works harder than the test taker pool for the MCAT.

250 is not top percentile.

Those stats aren't available but it seems like everyone I know did better than that.

 

[deleted480308]

Anyone with a reasonable IQ/test taking skills and a year to study can get a 250.

Getting into medical school requires all sorts of other intangibles and things that a dedicated year of studying won't get you. MCAT scores are only a piece, for residency USMLE is close to the whole thing. (It's also in many ways a conceptually easier test, just a ton of memorization.)

The average step score of every medical school class in the country disagrees with you

 

[Lawpy]

250 is not top percentile.

Those stats aren't available but it seems like everyone I know did better than that.

It's 84th percentile but even then, I'd bet it's harder to score 250 than it is to score 31/511 on the MCAT

 

[deleted103644]

How does this happen exactly?

Residency is a bit different from medical school. You will actually work with the people you're being interviewed by and they will rely on you to provide a service to their hospital.

If people wouldn't want to work with you (or you come across as too pompous), it doesn't matter how smart/accomplished you are, you won't match. It's also a bit random and depends on individual responses to you.

 

[deleted103644]

The average step score of every medical school class in the country disagrees with you

I said they could, not that they do. And I know many people with 250+, not all are brilliant.

 

[gyngyn]

How does this happen exactly?

There are way more over-qualified candidates than positions.
Let's take Ortho, for example:
Last year, 93 US MD seniors with a Step 1 of 241 or greater did not match.
68 US MD's with 5 or more publications did not match.
23 members of AOA (MD honor society) did not match.
44 graduates of NIH top 40 medical schools did not match.
5 US MD's with PhD's did not match.

 

[VincentAdultman]

Anyone with a reasonable IQ/test taking skills and a year to study can get a 250.

Getting into medical school requires all sorts of other intangibles and things that a dedicated year of studying won't get you. MCAT scores are only a piece, for residency USMLE is close to the whole thing. (It's also in many ways a conceptually easier test, just a ton of memorization.)

Step One is a big factor in matching competitive specialties. But it's not "close to the whole thing."

 

[Lawpy]

There are way more over-qualified candidates than positions.
Let's take Ortho, for example:
Last year, 93 US MD seniors with a Step 1 of 241 or greater did not match.
68 US MD's with 5 or more publications did not match.
23 members of AOA did not match.
44 graduates of NIH top 40 medical schools did not match.
5 US MD's with PhD's did not match.

So what did the seniors who did match into those specialties do right? Good essays and good interviews? Networking?

 

[gyngyn]

So what did the seniors who did match into those specialties do right? Good essays and good interviews? Networking?

All that plus a strong, well respected advocate in the specialty.
Even so, I see superb candidates fail to match...

 

[VincentAdultman]

So what did the seniors who did match into those specialties do right? Good essays and good interviews? Networking?

There's a certain amount of randomness to it. Sometimes bad sh happens and a good explanation can't be found.

 

[Lawpy]

All that plus a strong, well respected advocate in the specialty.
Even so, I see superb candidates fail to match...

There's a certain amount of randomness to it. Sometimes bad sh happens and a good explanation can't be found.

Well i guess residency applications are generally more random than medical school applications? Usually with a good school list, good application, good essays and good interviews can reliably net some medical school acceptances. But apparently a similar formula doesn't work for residency applications in ultra-competitive specialties simply because there are more qualified applicants than seats?

On the flip side, the least desirable specialties have more seats than applicants.

 

[gyngyn]

Well i guess residency applications are generally more random than medical school applications? Usually with a good school list, good application, good essays and good interviews can reliably net some medical school acceptances. But apparently a similar formula doesn't work for residency applications in ultra-competitive specialties simply because there are more qualified applicants than seats?

On the flip side, the least desirable specialties have more seats than applicants.

It's not random.
An excellent candidate can usually get in somewhere, but in some specialties a bad outcome is guaranteed for a significant percentage of excellent applicants.. The numbers just do not permit a seat for all of them. That's why I do not recommend an ortho (uro, derm, ent..) or bust attitude for pre-meds. You can be perfect and not match and re-application is not as generous a prospect as it is for medical school.

 

[Lawpy]

It's not random.
An excellent candidate can usually get in somewhere, but in some specialties a bad outcome is guaranteed for a certain percentage. The numbers just do not permit a seat for all of them.

There are way more over-qualified candidates than positions.
Let's take Ortho, for example:
Last year, 93 US MD seniors with a Step 1 of 241 or greater did not match.
68 US MD's with 5 or more publications did not match.
23 members of AOA (MD honor society) did not match.
44 graduates of NIH top 40 medical schools did not match.
5 US MD's with PhD's did not match.

But the numbers here assume that the seniors who didn't match had good list of programs, good interviews, good essays, good networking etc. I'm not sure whether they indicate this significant fraction had fallen through the cracks simply because of bad luck. Other factors probably played a role that couldn't be controlled.

 

[VincentAdultman]

But the numbers here assume that the seniors who didn't match had good list of programs, good interviews, good essays, good networking etc. I'm not sure whether they indicate this significant fraction had fallen through the cracks simply because of bad luck. Other factors probably played a role that couldn't be controlled.

I've seen it in Ortho personally.

 

[gyngyn]

But the numbers here assume that the seniors who didn't match had good list of programs, good interviews, good essays, good networking etc. I'm not sure whether they indicate this significant fraction had fallen through the cracks simply because of bad luck. Other factors probably played a role that couldn't be controlled.

That's why I am adding my observations over the course of over 20 years.
I see candidates who have everything not match in some specialties, even when they do everything right: all Step scores in the 250's+, apply to every program, dress and interview well, have amazing letters (back when we used to upload letters!)...

 

[Lawpy]

I've seen it in Ortho personally.

That's why I am adding my observations over the course of over 20 years.
I see candidates who have everything not match in some specialties, even when they do everything right: all Step scores in the 250's+, apply to every program, dress and interview well, have amazing letters (back when we used to upload letters!)...

Well i don't know what to say. That stinks.

 

[gyngyn]

Well i don't know what to say. That stinks.

It's especially stinky when it is one of your own adorable students.
Happily, I can say that resilient students re-imagine themselves in a way that makes use of their ample talents. There's a reason it's a core competency.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

How does this happen exactly?

But the numbers here assume that the seniors who didn't match had good list of programs, good interviews, good essays, good networking etc. I'm not sure whether they indicate this significant fraction had fallen through the cracks simply because of bad luck. Other factors probably played a role that couldn't be controlled.

There are simply more qualified people than spots. Go look at the profile of people who don't match those specialties.

 

[deleted103644]

Step One is a big factor in matching competitive specialties. But it's not "close to the whole thing."

Fine, a bit of hyperbole. But a good score generally gets you an interview minus red flags. And a bad score will eliminate specialties.

 

[Mad Jack]

Is it still reasonable to take gap years to get into MD (even when you can get into a DO easily) if you want to get into a top speciality? Such as derm, ortho, ophthalmology etc

If you won't be happy without those specialties and want to maximize your chances of getting into them, you should not go DO ever. Keep on trying to go MD until you get sick of it.

 

[Goro]

But the numbers here assume that the seniors who didn't match had good list of programs, good interviews, good essays, good networking etc. I'm not sure whether they indicate this significant fraction had fallen through the cracks simply because of bad luck. Other factors probably played a role that couldn't be controlled.

That's why I am adding my observations over the course of over 20 years.
I see candidates who have everything not match in some specialties, even when they do everything right: all Step scores in the 250's+, apply to every program, dress and interview well, have amazing letters (back when we used to upload letters!)...

Well i don't know what to say. That stinks.

It's just like trying to get into Harvard School. There are only so many seats. It's a seller's market.

 

[Mad Jack]

Then of course there is no saying an MD will get you those either. I get many premeds who say they want to go into medicine to do X at place Y. Everyone must go into this understanding that they me an everyday IM or FP in suburban, Anywhere USA

Oh absolutely. But if they go DO they have the "if I only had gone MD" chip on their shoulder and nobody wants that. At least if they go MD they know their degree wasn't what was holding them back.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Anyone with a reasonable IQ/test taking skills and a year to study can get a 250.

Getting into medical school requires all sorts of other intangibles and things that a dedicated year of studying won't get you. MCAT scores are only a piece, for residency USMLE is close to the whole thing. (It's also in many ways a conceptually easier test, just a ton of memorization.)

You really need to meet some people outside the medical school bubble, definitely not everyone with a "reasonable IQ" can get a 250 on step 1

 

[deleted103644]

You really need to meet some people outside the medical school bubble, definitely not everyone with a "reasonable IQ" can get a 250 on step 1

I think IQ is more relevant to the MCAT than to the USMLE. The USMLE is primarily a test of memorization and reading speed, the MCAT (particularly the physics section) actually required some critical thinking skills.

EDIT: And I'm well past the medical school bubble, but yes by reasonable I do mean above average (although not by much) for medical school.

 

[sliceofbread136]

I think IQ is more relevant to the MCAT than to the USMLE. The USMLE is primarily a test of memorization and reading speed, the MCAT (particularly the physics section) actually required some critical thinking skills.

EDIT: And I'm well past the medical school bubble, but yes by reasonable I do mean above average (although not by much) for medical school.

Above average for medical school is leagues different than a "reasonable IQ" like you said before...

 

[Redpancreas]

So what did the seniors who did match into those specialties do right? Good essays and good interviews? Networking?

I am not applying to Orthopedic Surgery but they likely demonstrated an interest in Orthopedics through research and through it developed mentors and contacts who helped guide them through the process, advised them on how to succeed on Orthopedic rotations, and wrote strong letters for them down the road. Essays won't help much because abilities are demonstrated by your scores and grades. Good interviews are probably a factor though!

 

[ChymeofPassion]

Not true at all. Gap years can add valuable experiences. I haven't applied to residency yet, but grade wise I'm out performing my entire class with 90+% on every med exam and I had a LizzyM of like 65...

Not my opinion, just explaining what he meant.

 

[mtglover1991]

If I am very interested in psychiatry, do you think it would be better to go DO in an area I would love for $27,000 or an MD school in a mediocre area for about $60,000? I keep going back and forth - anybody have any thoughts? I'm a re-applicant.

 

[el_duderino]

If I am very interested in psychiatry, do you think it would be better to go DO in an area I would love for $27,000 or an MD school in a mediocre area for about $60,000? I keep going back and forth - anybody have any thoughts? I'm a re-applicant.

Make that decision once you're sitting on acceptances to both schools. Chances are you won't be in the position to make that decision.

 

[mtglover1991]

Make that decision once you're sitting on acceptances to both schools. Chances are you won't be in the position to make that decision.

Funny thing but this is exactly my current situation except the MD area is actually really great! The DO school would be 37000/year and the MD would be 60000/year. Any suggestions? What would you guys be putting on the pros and cons lists?

 

[Lawpy]

Funny thing but this is exactly my current situation except the MD area is actually really great! The DO school would be 37000/year and the MD would be 60000/year. Any suggestions? What would you guys be putting on the pros and cons lists?

Go to MD for sure.

 

[el_duderino]

Funny thing but this is exactly my current situation except the MD area is actually really great! The DO school would be 37000/year and the MD would be 60000/year. Any suggestions? What would you guys be putting on the pros and cons lists?

MD. No question at all.

 

[mtglover1991]

MD. No question at all.

Elaborate for me - don't DOs make the same and aren't residencies about to merge?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Funny thing but this is exactly my current situation except the MD area is actually really great! The DO school would be 37000/year and the MD would be 60000/year. Any suggestions? What would you guys be putting on the pros and cons lists?

MD 10/10

Elaborate for me - don't DOs make the same and aren't residencies about to merge?

Yes, but the merger will most likely only make it more difficult for DOs to get certain specialties. MD schools simply have more resources, you won’t face any sort of bias when you apply for residency, and the opportunities available to the average MD are greater than for the average DO. It’s a no brainer man.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

MD 10/10



Yes, but the merger will most likely only make it more difficult for DOs to get certain specialties. MD schools simply have more resources, you won’t face any sort of bias when you apply for residency, and the opportunities available to the average MD are greater than for the average DO. It’s a no brainer man.

Additionally, DOs always had the ability to apply AOA and ACGME while MDs were “limited” (and I use that term very specifically) to ACGME. With the merger, everyone can apply to all residencies. Some formerly AOA programs may give some preference to DOs out of professional courtesy, but opening it up to everyone will just make it harder for DOs.

 

[Goro]

MD 10/10



Yes, but the merger will most likely only make it more difficult for DOs to get certain specialties. MD schools simply have more resources, you won’t face any sort of bias when you apply for residency, and the opportunities available to the average MD are greater than for the average DO. It’s a no brainer man.

Since you have the gift of prophecy, can you let us know next week's winning Lotto numbers?

Trying to determine the outcome of the merger is like trying to determine who will win the 2020 presidential election.

 

[mtglover1991]

Since you have the gift of prophecy, can you let us know next week's winning Lotto numbers?

Trying to determine the outcome of the merger is like trying to determine who will win the 2020 presidential election.

That's a bit how I feel. Do you have any thoughts Goro? I'm specifically concerned about acquiring so much debt through the MD program.

 

[Lawpy]

That's a bit how I feel. Do you have any thoughts Goro? I'm specifically concerned about acquiring so much debt through the MD program.

The debt is worth it.

Elaborate for me - don't DOs make the same and aren't residencies about to merge?

The residency merger is a bad thing for DO students since they are outcompeted by MD students. Preferences from former AOA residencies can only help so much.