Going to medical school NOT to become a doctor?

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engineerd

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I'm going to be a junior in biomedical engineering, and I know my passion lies within biotechnology and biomedical devices. However, I dont' think an undergrad education, or even a masters, is enough to put my ahead of the curve. So I'm thinking of applying to medical school. I will state my purpose and convey my passion in my personal statement, demonstrate this with my extracurricular activities, and lets say that my GPA and MCAT are both up to par. So what I'm worried about is this: Do medical schools only want future doctors? Or will I be a unique and in a favorable position during the admission cycle?
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engineerd said:
Do medical schools only want future doctors? Or will I be a unique and favorable position during the admission cycle?
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Yes, they only want future doctors. If you put in your personal statement that you plan to use your degree to develop biotech instead of practice medicine, you will not get a single interview.

Go to grad school.
 
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What will medical school teach you that graduate school won't?
 
I think mentioning you want a non-clinical career will help you too much (in fact, it might hurt), but you can mention how you like working with patients, but in the long run, you do want to work in biotech or medical devices to have even a larger impact on helping patients or something like that. I am also interested in non-clinical career (health policy as a MD). In terms of actual career/non admissions purposes, there are actually quite a few docs who don't see patients and work for pharma, biotech, medical devices, FDA, etc and they actually really want/need doctors who have a clinical understanding but also with some engineering backgrounds.

Here's a website
http://www.nonclinicaljobs.com/

Also you can apply to joint degree programs as well. I am currently in MD/MPH program, but I do know another classmate who does MD/MEngineering in BME. A lot of schools also offer MD/MBA or MD/Meng. I know Stanford Med is really into those biotech/joint degree programs.
 
engineerd said:
I'm going to be a junior in biomedical engineering, and I know my passion lies within biotechnology and biomedical devices. However, I dont' think an undergrad education, or even a masters, is enough to put my ahead of the curve. So I'm thinking of applying to medical school. I will state my purpose and convey my passion in my personal statement, demonstrate this with my extracurricular activities, and lets say that my GPA and MCAT are both up to par. So what I'm worried about is this: Do medical schools only want future doctors? Or will I be a unique and in a favorable position during the admission cycle?
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First to correct the vernacular: a med school graduate is a doctor. They may or may not go on to residency, but they are always a doctor. So yes, med schools want to produce doctors (i.e. they want their students to graduate)

If you're asking if they only want to produce practicing physicians, the answer is most definitely no. Many med schools are inherently research-focused and looking to produce researchers who will move healthcare forward. And there is a dire-need for more of them as well. The important thing is to have a well-articulated plan and be able to clearly explain how med school will help you on that path.
 
We actually have PhD program in our school of medicine for people who wish to get into biotech/biomedical devices. They take their preclinical classes with us in the medical school, but then go off to do their research once we start our clinics.

As others have said however, even if you manage to get an interview, the biggest question of your application is why would you be better served by an MD over a PhD.
 
you might be able to get in.... but don't state that you don't want to practice
plus why would you want to go thru 4 years of absolute HELL when you wont be needing almost 70% of the material?
Just go to grad school... its not worth the money, time and the effort
 
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I agree with everyone saying "PhD." It will be more useful, and likely more enjoyable, for you. And as others have already said, if you reveal your true intentions on med school apps, you will not be offered interviews. They want future physicians.
 
arish said:
you might be able to get in.... but don't state that you don't want to practice
plus why would you want to go thru 4 years of absolute HELL when you wont be needing almost 70% of the material?
Just go to grad school... its not worth the money, time and the effort
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I wouldn't describe med school as "absolute hell." 4th year is a joke - possibly the easiest 12 months you will ever have. Years 1-3 are typically (although not always) more intense than undergrad, but I personally think its reputation is overblown with regard to difficulty. Either way, most anyone would agree that it's nothing compared to residency.

But the best thing about med school is that so long as you get your work done and pass your tests, you will graduate and become a doctor. Grad school, on the other hand, can be a quagmire. You are at the mercy of a panel of "advisers" to decide whether you've met their arbitrary criteria for being awarded your degree. It isn't unusual to see people "stuck" in the program for 5-8 years. It isn't unheard of for people to invest that amount of time and not even graduate. Furthermore, I can assure you that in grad school, you will not be using 90+% of material when you're out in the real world (which is what it sounds like the OP wants to do).
 
thesauce said:
But the best thing about med school is that so long as you get your work done and pass your tests, you will graduate and become a doctor. Grad school, on the other hand, can be a quagmire. You are at the mercy of a panel of "advisers" to decide whether you've met their arbitrary criteria for being awarded your degree. It isn't unusual to see people "stuck" in the program for 5-8 years. It isn't unheard of for people to invest that amount of time and not even graduate. Furthermore, I can assure you that in grad school, you will not be using 90+% of material when you're out in the real world (which is what it sounds like the OP wants to do).
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This. In response to everyone else saying about PhD, I would rather do MD than PhD. But thank you all for the replies, I just want to see whether its a good idea.
 
thesauce said:
I wouldn't describe med school as "absolute hell." 4th year is a joke - possibly the easiest 12 months you will ever have. Years 1-3 are typically (although not always) more intense than undergrad, but I personally think its reputation is overblown with regard to difficulty. Either way, most anyone would agree that it's nothing compared to residency.

But the best thing about med school is that so long as you get your work done and pass your tests, you will graduate and become a doctor. Grad school, on the other hand, can be a quagmire. You are at the mercy of a panel of "advisers" to decide whether you've met their arbitrary criteria for being awarded your degree. It isn't unusual to see people "stuck" in the program for 5-8 years. It isn't unheard of for people to invest that amount of time and not even graduate. Furthermore, I can assure you that in grad school, you will not be using 90+% of material when you're out in the real world (which is what it sounds like the OP wants to do).
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There is nothing in the medical school curriculum that will really help OP become a solid bioengineer, aside from concepts. I suppose MD/PhD is an idea, but he will still be stuck in PhD thesis quagmire hell for an unknown number of years.

I just don't see how an MD degree will help OP at all. He will graduate with no skills or knowledge in bioengineering.
 
What a terrible idea. If you want to develop devices get a PhD in biomedical engineering.
 
engineerd said:
This. In response to everyone else saying about PhD, I would rather do MD than PhD. But thank you all for the replies, I just want to see whether its a good idea.
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It's not a good idea. Med school is there to train clinicians. Most have mission statements to this effect, some have mandates from the state to this effect. That's the purpose of this form of schooling, that's what they will train you for. Seats are limited, and anyone not on board with the mission keeps the school from succeeding in it's mission. So basically if you indicate you don't want to practice they won't (and possibly can't) take you. You won't learn very much unrelated to or that isn't at least foundation for becoming a clinician in med school. the expectation is that you will go on to become an intern, and that's what the training is focused towards. There is a very set curriculum and you will have few to no electives most years to focus in on what interests you if becoming a clinician doesn't. And the fact that you don't want to practice isn't going to allow you to avoid the 80 hour weeks and overnights you may see in certain rotations, which really aren't going to seem worth it if you could have been doing a 9-5 M-F schedule as a PhD candidate to get to your goals. Bad bad bad idea. Misinformed.
 
Apply and go full force. Medical schools are looking for people just like you.
 
Just want to chime in. Interesting idea but agreed that there are better avenues. A) You would probably hate it, two years of medical school are clinical rotations dealing with patients B) You would be wasting a seat - let someone else have it that actually wants to use their MD/DO C) As others have mentioned, there are upper level degrees specifically for what you want to do D) that's a lot of $$$

Survivor DO
 
VisionaryTics said:
There is nothing in the medical school curriculum that will really help OP become a solid bioengineer, aside from concepts. I suppose MD/PhD is an idea, but he will still be stuck in PhD thesis quagmire hell for an unknown number of years.

I just don't see how an MD degree will help OP at all. He will graduate with no skills or knowledge in bioengineering.
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Depending on the nature of work you're looking to do, I actually think it would be emmensely helpful in terms of actually knowing what projects are clinically meaningful and worth pursuing. Whether there are easier (and less expensive ways) to do so is another question.

You would not believe some of the projects (both pharmaceutical and technological) that companies are investing untold millions into that have absolutely no "real" clinical relevance simply because they have no idea how the clinic works.
 
Law2Doc said:
It's not a good idea. Med school is there to train clinicians. Most have mission statements to this effect, some have mandates from the state to this effect. That's the purpose of this form of schooling, that's what they will train you for. Seats are limited, and anyone not on board with the mission keeps the school from succeeding in it's mission. So basically if you indicate you don't want to practice they won't (and possibly can't) take you. You won't learn very much unrelated to or that isn't at least foundation for becoming a clinician in med school. the expectation is that you will go on to become an intern, and that's what the training is focused towards. There is a very set curriculum and you will have few to no electives most years to focus in on what interests you if becoming a clinician doesn't. And the fact that you don't want to practice isn't going to allow you to avoid the 80 hour weeks and overnights you may see in certain rotations, which really aren't going to seem worth it if you could have been doing a 9-5 M-F schedule as a PhD candidate to get to your goals. Bad bad bad idea. Misinformed.
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This is true of some schools and patently false for others. I'm curious why you think med schools like to see research on your CV? Why would they ever allow you to take a year off in the middle to do research if they only want to produce clinicians? They don't (at least not all of them). We had a graduate of our public med school with a supposedly clinical (even primary care) focus that took a job at one of the major pharmaceutical companies and they absolutely deify him at the institution. He speaks every year at the scholarship dinner about non-clinical careers out there.
 
I'm not the most familiar with this topic, but I have heard that MD/ PhDs tend to have a better chance at securing grant money than PhDs. This may only apply to bio research, though.

Not all MDs end up practicing medicine, but I would bet most entered med school with the intent to practice. That's why, at interviews, you're asked, 'Why do you want to be a doctor?' rather than, 'What do you plan to do once you receive your MD?'
 
Why not consider MD/PhD? I believe those programs are more receptive to people who don't intend to be clinicians. Just a PhD would be fewer years and (probably) more interesting to you, however.
 
Why is bioengineering and biomedical engineering used interchangeably in this thread? I always assumed they were different fields (biomedE basically Electrical Engineering and Mechanical Engineering while Bioengineering being biotech).
 
OP, you could try to get into an MD/MS program if there is one. MD/PhD is also a possibility, but it prepares you more for academia than industry.
 
It seems like MD/PhD is what you're looking for.
 
I disagree with some people on the thread that it'll be absolutely worthless to you, and that no medical school would take you. I know there are medical writers who went to medical school solely to understand how medicine works, with no intention of actually practicing. They are rare, but they do exist.

I do think that it's something you have to really want, as you'll go pretty far into debt just to get clinical knowledge without advancing your biomed skills. I think you could achieve the same goal by doing some shadowing or working with physicians in a non-physician role (scribe, scrub tech, etc), or by just talking to physicians and seeing what they want.

Admissions is at a bit of a low point right now. Try e-mailing a few schools just to see what they think and whether or not they would consider you for admission. Then you can get your answer straight from the horse's mouth.
 
LaurenMD said:
Why not consider MD/PhD? I believe those programs are more receptive to people who don't intend to be clinicians. Just a PhD would be fewer years and (probably) more interesting to you, however.
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I mostly haven't considered MD/PhD because I assume that they're super super competitive. Does anyone know anyone that's in such a program?

mvenus929 said:
Admissions is at a bit of a low point right now. Try e-mailing a few schools just to see what they think and whether or not they would consider you for admission. Then you can get your answer straight from the horse's mouth.
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Ah I suppose that's a good idea. Thank you!
 
Man, I'm going to be straight forward. Going to MD school is not what you're looking for. You've had a ton of people suggest MD/PhD to you but you've just you don't like that option because they're super competitive. Therefore, what makes you think you'll be one of these rarities like the one who speaks about non-clinical opportunities/medical writer? If you want go for it,I'm not trying to discourage your dreams. It's just that the MD degree is really meant for future practicing physicians. As people have said on here it's a service degree, why do they ask you why you want to be a physician?, there are clinical clerkships/rotations where you're specifically taught how to treat patients, you do rectal exams man! (or woman).

Anyways, if you want to go ahead and try it go ahead and do it. It's an uncharted path that I don't think anyone here can speak about but as always if someone can please emerge! I hope you find what you want to do. What you're doing is very admirable so I'm sorry if that was a bit blunt but it doesn't seem like we're making an impression on you.

In response to the guy who asks about why research is looked upon well for MD applications, I've shadowed two MDs who did research. Research can be anything from keeping an informal tally of patients who are satisfied with a procedure as a plastic surgeon to publishing a study that you've conducted in Nature (assuming you get your own lab without a Ph.D which is probably very difficult).
 
What about the $200k debt you'll be taking on? It's a huge concern with a physician's >$150k/year salary, let alone a biomedical engineer's $100k/year salary.
 
circulus vitios said:
What about the $200k debt you'll be taking on? It's a huge concern with a physician's >$150k/year salary, let alone a biomedical engineer's $100k/year salary.
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Medical device companies hire for spots only to be filled by physicians. You can get involved with clinical trials, research, or even the business side of things.

To OP: Check out the MD/MS in Biomed engineering at UMN. Right here.
 
thesauce said:
This is true of some schools and patently false for others. I'm curious why you think med schools like to see research on your CV? Why would they ever allow you to take a year off in the middle to do research if they only want to produce clinicians? They don't (at least not all of them). We had a graduate of our public med school with a supposedly clinical (even primary care) focus that took a job at one of the major pharmaceutical companies and they absolutely deify him at the institution. He speaks every year at the scholarship dinner about non-clinical careers out there.
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Research is important to med schools both because some specialties demand it and at academic institutions clinical research is a big revenue source. Someone with a lot of research has a lot more academic institution doors open to them, so it's not surprising schools embrace this. most graduates won't go into big pharm or management consulting and while a school will perhaps "deify" them when they succeed in breaking the mold, it doesn't mean schools will ever put any focus toward this. Exactly what rotation have you had in med school would help the OP become anything other than a clinician? How exactly is the MD path the best use of his time and money to get to his stated goal? Yes some people do find diverse uses for their medical training but it's rarely a good plan to apply to med school for this stated purpose, and it's always trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, cut your losses, type analysis. Med school trains clinicians. The research you do in med school is to get you a residency or set you up to be a clinician in an academic setting, where research matters. you don't go to med school to be a bioengineer. That doesn't mean you couldn't still end up there, just that if you go that route it's long, circuitous and potentially wasteful and foolish.
 
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SuperDhooper19 said:
...
In response to the guy who asks about why research is looked upon well for MD applications, I've shadowed two MDs who did research. Research can be anything from keeping an informal tally of patients who are satisfied with a procedure as a plastic surgeon to publishing a study that you've conducted in Nature (assuming you get your own lab without a Ph.D which is probably very difficult).
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yeah I'd say at least 90% of what most schools call "research" is chart reviews, surveys and clinical trials. We aren't talking about bench research, new product development or engineering. The research they talk about and seek in med school has a lot more to do with CV development and grant funding for clinicians than anything to do with alternative careers. I just dont see OPs goals being well targeted with a medical degree.
 
engineerd said:
I mostly haven't considered MD/PhD because I assume that they're super super competitive. Does anyone know anyone that's in such a program?
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MD/PhD programs are looking for slightly different things than most MD programs. Therefore, depending on your CV it could be harder or easier for you to get into an MD/PhD program compared to an MD program.

You will need to research on the programs before you apply as some require their students to do the PhD within a narrow range of fields. Plenty do not have this restriction, but there is no point in you applying to the ones with it.
 
Law2Doc said:
yeah I'd say at least 90% of what most schools call "research" is chart reviews, surveys and clinical trials. We aren't talking about bench research, new product development or engineering. The research they talk about and seek in med school has a lot more to do with CV development and grant funding for clinicians than anything to do with alternative careers. I just dont see OPs goals being well targeted with a medical degree.
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Totally agree. Not to mention that getting through medical school is a nontrivial task that will require lots of time, energy and effort. Why anyone would want to subject themselves to that without having any desire to be a physician in some capacity is beyond me.

Sent from my SGH-M919
 
Law2Doc said:
Exactly what rotation have you had in med school would help the OP become anything other than a clinician? How exactly is the MD path the best use of his time and money to get to his stated goal?
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We need to clarify what exactly is his intended goal. All that the OP has said is that he's interested in "biotechnology and biomedical devices." If you interpret this as him wanting to sit at his computer and design a new device, I agree that med school is a waste of time. If he wants to actually lead a team of people doing this and/or design trials for a new device from inception to determine their feasibility, applications, usefulness, safety, and efficacy, including identifying clinically meaningful end points, clinical training would be very helpful.

In answer to your question: Surgery and all surgical subspecialties, oncology, IM, and Ob/Gyn to name a few. Probably more. All of these rotations give you the opportunity to see the applications of new technologies in the clinic/OR and, most importantly, how physicians feel about and adopt the technologies, what current problems they face, and how they might be overcome.

Could he get this knowledge/training elsewhere? Absolutely. Is there a better way to demonstrate to a potential company/firm that he has this training? That's the real question.

Law2Doc said:
Yes some people do find diverse uses for their medical training but it's rarely a good plan to apply to med school for this stated purpose, and it's always trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, cut your losses, type analysis. Med school trains clinicians. The research you do in med school is to get you a residency or set you up to be a clinician in an academic setting, where research matters. you don't go to med school to be a bioengineer. That doesn't mean you couldn't still end up there, just that if you go that route it's long, circuitous and potentially wasteful and foolish.
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There are literally millions spent every year by companies (for-profit and non-profits alike), trying to combat these beliefs. We need more physicians interested and involved in medical research (basic, translational, and clinical). The MD/PhD programs currently available are inadequate in size and selection criteria to fill this need.
 
NickNaylor said:
Totally agree. Not to mention that getting through medical school is a nontrivial task that will require lots of time, energy and effort. Why anyone would want to subject themselves to that without having any desire to be a physician in some capacity is beyond me.

Sent from my SGH-M919
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You may be underestimating the difficulty of getting through a graduate degree in engineering. It's far from trivial as well.
 
engineerd said:
I'm going to be a junior in biomedical engineering, and I know my passion lies within biotechnology and biomedical devices. However, I dont' think an undergrad education, or even a masters, is enough to put my ahead of the curve. So I'm thinking of applying to medical school. I will state my purpose and convey my passion in my personal statement, demonstrate this with my extracurricular activities, and lets say that my GPA and MCAT are both up to par. So what I'm worried about is this: Do medical schools only want future doctors? Or will I be a unique and in a favorable position during the admission cycle?
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They have these things called Masters Degrees and Ph.D programs.
 
The debt alone should deter sensible people.
 
SuperDhooper19 said:
In response to the guy who asks about why research is looked upon well for MD applications, I've shadowed two MDs who did research. Research can be anything from keeping an informal tally of patients who are satisfied with a procedure as a plastic surgeon to publishing a study that you've conducted in Nature (assuming you get your own lab without a Ph.D which is probably very difficult).
Click to expand...

Law2Doc said:
yeah I'd say at least 90% of what most schools call "research" is chart reviews, surveys and clinical trials. We aren't talking about bench research, new product development or engineering. The research they talk about and seek in med school has a lot more to do with CV development and grant funding for clinicians than anything to do with alternative careers. I just dont see OPs goals being well targeted with a medical degree.
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The only way either of these comments is relevant is if you both believe that bench research is not highly regarded by ADCOMs. You do realize that there are hundreds of re-applicants every year who complete bench research and are much more successful in their subsequent application cycle. Coincidence?
 
thesauce said:
The only way either of these comments is relevant is if you both believe that bench research is not highly regarded by ADCOMs. You do realize that there are hundreds of re-applicants every year who complete bench research and are much more successful in their subsequent application cycle. Coincidence?
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I don't think we said bench research wasn't highly regarded, or that it couldn't help an application similar to other forms of research. We didn't say anything like that, and it not a natural corrolary of what was said. What we actually said was that your saying med school was interested in "research" is misleading, because 90+% is not that kind of research. That you can find hundreds of examples in an annual applicnt pool of 50,000 is pretty insignficant.
 
thesauce said:
We need to clarify what exactly is his intended goal. All that the OP has said is that he's interested in "biotechnology and biomedical devices." If you interpret this as him wanting to sit at his computer and design a new device, I agree that med school is a waste of time. If he wants to actually lead a team of people doing this and/or design trials for a new device from inception to determine their feasibility, applications, usefulness, safety, and efficacy, including identifying clinically meaningful end points, clinical training would be very helpful.
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I should've expanded upon my original post with this. I don't actually want to sit around all day doing research or playing with a piece of tech. I want to be guy leading the team and the projects. My mom works at a big engineering company and she says that they hire a bunch of MD's for their research. She says a lot of the upper management is incompetent because they they don't know the details and the goals of the projects and they don't know what's really going on half the time. The people who are actually working on the projects are frustrated because these managers only really care about making money and do not have their best interest in the project (but I guess that's how the world really works). It's non-experts leading experts. I guess my ultimate goal would be to also obtain an MBA, take on one of these managing positions, and get **** done.
 
thesauce said:
The sky is the limit in terms of income with those running clinical trials for the big pharmaceutical and device manufacturers.
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Any knowledge on the mean salary for a seasoned developer in those fields?
 
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