Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention (updated for 2021)

[Goro]

@Goro , I want to express my gratitude for your advice over the years. I graduated college four years ago with a 3.25, and I now hold an acceptance to an MD school (and am waiting to hear back from an interview at a T20). I doubt I would be in this position without your clear guidance and willingness to tell the truth, even if it stung a bit at the time. Thank you for helping me to achieve what I had once thought to be impossible!

Congrats!!

Now go read this:

• Goro's Guide to Success in Medical School (2019 edition)

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[LlMITBREAKER]

I just wanted to add that there may be some Masters programs that allow for students to take undergrad courses along with their degree. I went to one like this where I earned a Biology M.S which gave me a good grad sGPA. However, I was also able to retake both semesters of organic chem (originally a C to an A) as well. I mention this because its mainly useful for DO schools where most use the AVERAGE sGPA from undergrad and graduate schools when assessing applicants. Meanwhile, MD programs (atleast the ones I applied to) mainly consider the sGPA of the most recent degree which is usually a grad degree. Therefore, you can really boost DO applications in such programs.
This can also protects you if you are an extreme case. Say you have a 2.1 sGPA in undergrad. Enrolling in a strict grad program, even if you are able to get a 4.0, I am not sure your average sGPA would be over a 3.1. But if you can retake some of those low undergrad classes within the grad program, you fix this easier.

 

[cheezelover]

@Goro thank you for all of the advice thus far... I've loved your reinvention thread!

I'm looking for some advice....I applied this past cycle (2023) to 31 medical schools and received 3 interview invites. I've now been waitlisted at 2 of these schools and received a R from the third (my state school). I'm now starting to think about re applying and wondering if I should try to take classes (DIY post bacc) to boost my GPA, as I'm thinking that might be the reason I haven't received an acceptance. If I should take class, do I need a whole year of coursework before I re submit apps? Or could I re apply this summer while taking courses? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

freshmen sGPA- 2.8
sophomore sGPA- 3.1
junior sGPA- 3.68
senior sGPA- 3.7

freshmen cGPA- 3.18
sophomore cGPA- 3.1
junior cGPA- 3.73
senior cGPA- 3.82

MCAT 520

 

[Goro]

@Goro thank you for all of the advice thus far... I've loved your reinvention thread!

I'm looking for some advice....I applied this past cycle (2023) to 31 medical schools and received 3 interview invites. I've now been waitlisted at 2 of these schools and received a R from the third (my state school). I'm now starting to think about re applying and wondering if I should try to take classes (DIY post bacc) to boost my GPA, as I'm thinking that might be the reason I haven't received an acceptance. If I should take class, do I need a whole year of coursework before I re submit apps? Or could I re apply this summer while taking courses? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

freshmen sGPA- 2.8
sophomore sGPA- 3.1
junior sGPA- 3.68
senior sGPA- 3.7

freshmen cGPA- 3.18
sophomore cGPA- 3.1
junior cGPA- 3.73
senior cGPA- 3.82

MCAT 520

Be patient, many schools don't start pulling from the wait list until late spring/early summer.

Reapplying while you taking classes is not a good idea, as you want to show doubts that you've truly reinvented.

I think that working on interview skills is in order.

Did you have any DO schools on your list? If not, you need to have them next time you apply.

IF you get shut out, see if you can get feedback from the Admissions Dean on your rejections. Getting three IIs is an accomplishment, especially for a reinventor!

 

[cmn9]

is the recommended credit amount ~30 credits? if so, is it possible to take 20-24 credits this summer and apply at the end of july with the new post bacc gpa? that way i apply early in the cycle with 20-24 new credits, and then finish the next 18-12 credits during fall semester? Is it possible to inform schools you are still completing classes, and update schools at end of fall semester for last few classes? I realize it would be late for them to get the last few classes, but it may give me a chance of matriculating next summer rather than waiting another full year. thank you @Goro

 

[Goro]

is the recommended credit amount ~30 credits?

Yes

if so, is it possible to take 20-24 credits this summer and apply at the end of july with the new post bacc gpa? that way i apply early in the cycle with 20-24 new credits, and then finish the next 18-12 credits during fall semester?

I don't recommend this

Is it possible to inform schools you are still completing classes, and update schools at end of fall semester for last few classes?

Some schools may go for this, but I think that the majority would prefer to see you finish all of your classes. "Im taking classes now" doesn't do much to show that the you of now is not the you of then.

I realize it would be late for them to get the last few classes, but it may give me a chance of matriculating next summer rather than waiting another full year. thank you @Goro

Med schools aren't going anywhere.

 

[cmn9]

Yes

I don't recommend this

Some schools may go for this, but I think that the majority would prefer to see you finish all of your classes. "Im taking classes now" doesn't do much to show that the you of now is not the you of then.

Med schools aren't going anywhere.

would you recommend a normal summer schedule of 2-4 classes this summer, followed by 2 semesters of regular class work, for a total of 30-40 credits? and plan to apply next summer? my sgpa is ~2.7 and cgpa is 3.0. non science is 3.6 so i know i just need to prove i can handle upper-level science at this point. i already have 2000+ clinical hours, 500+ clinical volunteering, 100+ nonclinical volunteering, etc and 507 mcat. im familiar and happy with DO only. just need to see how to get in upper-level science. was hoping to get it in before next cycle but you're right they will be there next year.

 

[Goro]

would you recommend a normal summer schedule of 2-4 classes this summer, followed by 2 semesters of regular class work, for a total of 30-40 credits? and plan to apply next summer? my sgpa is ~2.7 and cgpa is 3.0. non science is 3.6 so i know i just need to prove i can handle upper-level science at this point. i already have 2000+ clinical hours, 500+ clinical volunteering, 100+ nonclinical volunteering, etc and 507 mcat. im familiar and happy with DO only. just need to see how to get in upper-level science. was hoping to get it in before next cycle but you're right they will be there next year.

Sounds like a plan!!

 

[wannabe_doc_]

Hi Goro! I'm feeling nervous about my chances tonight and would love your advice. I had a bad freshman year (now 9/10 years ago that won't let me go)
freshmen science gpa: 2.25 (16 credits)
sophomore science gpa- 4.0 (4 credits)
junior science gpa 3.75 (16 credits)
senior science gpa- 3.80 (20 credits)
postbac science gpa: 3.65 (69 credits) (3.82 last 27 credits)
total gpas
freshman year 2.5
sophomore gpa: 3.75
junior year: 3.57
senior year: 3.73
post bac: 3.61
mcat 520

 

[Goro]

Hi Goro! I'm feeling nervous about my chances tonight and would love your advice. I had a bad freshman year (now 9/10 years ago that won't let me go)
freshmen science gpa: 2.25 (16 credits)
sophomore science gpa- 4.0 (4 credits)
junior science gpa 3.75 (16 credits)
senior science gpa- 3.80 (20 credits)
postbac science gpa: 3.65 (69 credits) (3.82 last 27 credits)
total gpas
freshman year 2.5
sophomore gpa: 3.75
junior year: 3.57
senior year: 3.73
post bac: 3.61
mcat 520

Have a little faith in yourself!!! Your reinvention is admirable!

 

[wannabe_doc_]

Have a little faith in yourself!!! Your reinvention is admirable!

Thank you so much; I really needed to hear that. Are there schools you recommend?

 

[Goro]

Thank you so much; I really needed to hear that. Are there schools you recommend?

List will follow

 

[jhmmd]

Hi Goro! I'm feeling nervous about my chances tonight and would love your advice. I had a bad freshman year (now 9/10 years ago that won't let me go)
freshmen science gpa: 2.25 (16 credits)
sophomore science gpa- 4.0 (4 credits)
junior science gpa 3.75 (16 credits)
senior science gpa- 3.80 (20 credits)
postbac science gpa: 3.65 (69 credits) (3.82 last 27 credits)
total gpas
freshman year 2.5
sophomore gpa: 3.75
junior year: 3.57
senior year: 3.73
post bac: 3.61
mcat 520

What is your total GPA? I could have averaged the ones that you listed but it is meaningless w/out # of credits. Can you list the number of credits for each of your years in college/post-bacc?

You might want to make a spreadsheet of your classes/GPA to keep track of this. I did this and it is easier to see # of credits/classes/GPA, esp. if you have more than one transcript (i.e. you attended more than one college).

 

[wannabe_doc_]

What is your total GPA? I could have averaged the ones that you listed but it is meaningless w/out # of credits. Can you list the number of credits for each of your years in college/post-bacc?

You might want to make a spreadsheet of your classes/GPA to keep track of this. I did this and it is easier to see # of credits/classes/GPA, esp. if you have more than one transcript (i.e. you attended more than one college).

Total GPA: 3.5 everything, 3.52 science
Credits:
Freshman year: 24
Sophomore: 20
Junior: 28
Senior: 44
Postbac year 1: 32 (2018-2019)
Postbac year 2; spring 2021 to spring 2022: 24 credits (20 science)
Postbac semester fall 2022 8 credits
Current semester/finished 9 credits

 

[wannabe_doc_]

List will follow

I'm so sorry but I can't find a list of schools. I just want to make sure I'm not missing a link. Thanks so much

 

[Goro]

I'm so sorry but I can't find a list of schools. I just want to make sure I'm not missing a link. Thanks so much

Dartmouth
Your state schools
Columbia
Keck (maybe)
UCSF
EVMS
U VM
HOFSTRA
VANDY
MIAMI
TCU/UNT
SETON HALL
NYMC
DREXEL
PITT
SINAI
NYU.LI
CASE
DUKE
ROSY FRANKLIN
LOYOLA
TUFTS
BU
TULANE
SLU
CREIGHTON
WAYNE STATE
NOVA.MD
EMORY
U CINCY
GTOWN
GWU
Any DO school, except the ones on my Bad Boy list

 

[MRAL]

Hi @Goro .Thank you for your thread on pre-meds who need reinvention. It's a light of hope for the non-traditional student trying to put together a plan to apply to medical school.

On that note, I'm doing a DIY post-bac at a 4-year university, so I was wondering where I would fit in the 1-2 year transcript repair you mentioned in your guide. I already hold an undergraduate and graduate business degree, one received in 2014 and 2020, respectively. In my undergraduate years, I did poorly and now have a cGPA of 2.27 and a sGPA of 3.00.

That said, how much transcript repair would I need to do past the general prerequisites to show academic rigor, if any? In 2 years I will be finishing the prerequisites. Do I need to take more upper-level courses? I've reached out to several DO medical schools and I've been getting mixed answers. Some say they want to see upper-level courses, some say they want to see at least 60 credits on my post-bac. How many upper-level credits would you say are enough for most medical schools, especially for someone like me who's just starting to take the prerequisites? Thanks again for everything you do.

 

[Goro]

60 credits of post-bac is overkill.

How many credits total are you pre-reqs? If they're < 30, add some upper level Bio courses to get up to 30ish.

 

[MRAL]

60 credits of post-bac is overkill.

How many credits total are you pre-reqs? If they're < 30, add some upper level Bio courses to get up to 30ish.

They are 40 credits, made up mostly of Bio and Chem lower level courses and a few Chem upper levels. I was thinking of taking 2 additional upper level Bio courses to get me ready for the MCAT, but that would bring me up to 48 credits. I keep hearing that Genetis and Cell&Molecular Bio are two subjects that are currently tested on the exam.

 

[EbolaConstrictor]

@Goro Thanks for the guide. I need help with my plan as a non-trad (late 20s) hopeful who needs reinvention. Here are the basics.

2013-2014, state school, 14 credits, cGPA is 1.23, 2Fs, 3Ws. I withdrew.

2017-2020, state CC, 66 credits, cGPA is 2.55, 2Fs, got an AAS.

2021-Present, state school, 47 credits done, 26 credits left (all 73 credits are science), 3.84 GPA, BS in bio

MCAT is planned for September. Got like 11000 hours in EMS as a paramedic.

Now the bummer. cGPA of 2.83 sGPA of 3.20 (2 WF's from the AAS)

Plan? SMP? Just get above 3.0 for cGPA? I can get an MS in Bio from my current school in 18 credits with a curriculum similar to med school with a cost of like $7k. Thanks, I appreciate any advice.

 

[Calizboosted76]

@Goro Thanks for the guide. I need help with my plan as a non-trad (late 20s) hopeful who needs reinvention. Here are the basics.

2013-2014, state school, 14 credits, cGPA is 1.23, 2Fs, 3Ws. I withdrew.

2017-2020, state CC, 66 credits, cGPA is 2.55, 2Fs, got an AAS.

2021-Present, state school, 47 credits done, 26 credits left (all 73 credits are science), 3.84 GPA, BS in bio

MCAT is planned for September. Got like 11000 hours in EMS as a paramedic.

Now the bummer. cGPA of 2.83 sGPA of 3.20 (2 WF's from the AAS)

Plan? SMP? Just get above 3.0 for cGPA? I can get an MS in Bio from my current school in 18 credits with a curriculum similar to med school with a cost of like $7k. Thanks, I appreciate any advice.

You have done the work and reinvented yourself on the GPA side of things. Finish off your BS strong and then it is time to get a solid MCAT score. No need for an SMP or to get the cGPA above a 3.0.



Edit: Getting above a 3.0 cGPA will open more doors. However it isn't necessary for reinvention if you cast a wide net.

 

[Goro]

You have done the work and reinvented yourself on the GPA side of things. Finish off your BS strong and then it is time to get a solid MCAT score. No need for an SMP or to get the cGPA above a 3.0.



Edit: Getting above a 3.0 cGPA will open more doors. However it isn't necessary for reinvention if you cast a wide net.

Agree with this. Also, see if you can get retroactive Ws, OP!

 

[Drainnn]

@Goro
Undergraduate - BS Chem

Freshman Year: 2.154 (cGPA: 2.154)
Sophomore Year: 3.004 (cGPA: 2.633)
Junior Year: 3.146 (cGPA: 2.825)
Senior Year: 3.514 (cGPA: 2.949) ( Fall Semester Medical Withdrawal (on transcript) + Untreated Seasonal Affective + COVID)
Post-Bacc: 3.733 (cGPA: 3.030) ( Fall Semester Medical Withdrawal (on transcript) + Untreated Seasonal Affective + COVID)
------------------------------------
Final Undergrad: cGPA: 3.03, sUGPA: 2.90


Graduate - MS Computer Science (T20, if that matters)
1st Sem - 3.533
2nd Sem - 3.9
3rd Sem - 4.0
----------------
Final Graduate: cGGPA: 3.84

MCAT: 517

Clincal (~600 hrs):
3 Years as a ER Volunteer (400+ hrs), Medical Assistant: (200+ hrs).

Non-Clinical (~200 hrs):
Few months in Food Pantry, Few months in mentorship program

State: NY. Am a URM (Dominican), First-Gen, Low-SES, Non-Trad,
Specializing in ML/AI in Medicine (Thesis in CV & Radiology, currently in that lab).

With the two sem withdrawals do I need an SMP (Ruined Post-Bacc) to save my sGPA? I spent a lot on a masters already haha
I don't care about MD vs DO too much (Should I? I'm interested in Rads). I'm totally fine with applying only DO.

Do you know if Dominican counts as URM? Others have mentioned that it doesn’t count but I am unsure.

 

[purplepuppy391]

@Goro Is it fine if most of the DIY postbacc courses are retakes of expired prereqs? I'll have ~37 credits completed and the only non-prereq courses included will be human physiology and biostats. So far I'm 20 credits in with a 4.0. I wasn't sure if I'd need to add more upper level courses to show more proof of reinvention/gpa repair. The diy post bacc is already stretching me a little thin financially so I don't want to have to take more courses unless necessary.

 

[Goro]

@Goro Is it fine if most of the DIY postbacc courses are retakes of expired prereqs? I'll have ~37 credits completed and the only non-prereq courses included will be human physiology and biostats. So far I'm 20 credits in with a 4.0. I wasn't sure if I'd need to add more upper level courses to show more proof of reinvention/gpa repair. The diy post bacc is already stretching me a little thin financially so I don't want to have to take more courses unless necessary.

That's fine. I figure that you can use that info for MCAT.

 

[purplepuppy391]

That's fine. I figure that you can use that info for MCAT.

Does it change anything if I took the MCAT prior to doing my DIY post bacc? Got a 513.

 

[Goro]

Does it change anything if I took the MCAT prior to doing my DIY post bacc? Got a 513.

If pre-reqs are expired, it makes sense to retake them...but you'll need to do very well in them.

Keep in mind that different schools are likely to have different expiration dates, and not all schools have pre-reqs. Double check with MSAR

 

[SlammedNation]

Not sure what to do in my situation. It seems the only viable option is a Post-bac.

3 years Post-Undergrad:

Stats:
~120credits 2.7cgpa Undergrad Biomedical Sciences Degree @ State School / No MCAT

Application:
Clinical Hours:
5000+ hours As Unit Secretary


Leadership:
Medical Relations Director (Soph. Year ) + Mentorship Program Director (Sr) (this is something I can talk about on end in interview, well over 200 hours put into this)
Unit Council Chair @ my Hospital
Co-chair of Hospital Council
Attended national medical convention during undergrad,

Volunteer: Hearts for the Homeless (Provide BP screenings/ hygiene products to downtown area)
200-300 Volunteer at Childrens Hospital (Quite old though, 3-4 years ago)

Shadowing: Geriatrics/IM/ID 100-200hours. (Very rough estimate)
Letter of Rec: Director of my Unit / Supervisor of my Hospital / Nursing Manager of my unit

Spent the last 3 years applying to Masters programs (My parents think going back to do more undergrad was a dumb idea and waste of money, I tried to convince them otherwise. Ended up wasting 3 years getting rejected, and thousands of dollars.) Don't even know if all of my things on my application will be relevant, as its past 3 years ago, and have nobody to verify I was in these positions (aside from the Council positions/hospital). Seems like I wasted my time doing them since I waited so long.
Not even sure what to do at this point. Think the only avenue is doing a post-bacc. If I do a year long one, it barely moves my GPA, and wont hit the 3.0 cutoff filter I hear most medical schools have. Feel demoralized, and like I wasted my time getting this degree. Really don't know if I can endure more than 2 years of not getting into medical school, as my life is passing me by, and my parents are getting annoyed and on the verge of kicking me out soon. Any advice helps

 

[Doc2Be93]

Not sure what to do in my situation. It seems the only viable option is a Post-bac.

3 years Post-Undergrad:

Stats:
~120credits 2.7cgpa Undergrad Biomedical Sciences Degree @ State School / No MCAT

Application:
Clinical Hours:
5000+ hours As Unit Secretary


Leadership:
Medical Relations Director (Soph. Year ) + Mentorship Program Director (Sr) (this is something I can talk about on end in interview, well over 200 hours put into this)
Unit Council Chair @ my Hospital
Co-chair of Hospital Council
Attended national medical convention during undergrad,

Volunteer: Hearts for the Homeless (Provide BP screenings/ hygiene products to downtown area)
200-300 Volunteer at Childrens Hospital (Quite old though, 3-4 years ago)
Letter of Rec: Director of my Unit / Supervisor of my Hospital / Nursing Manager of my unit

Spent the last 3 years applying to Masters programs (My parents think going back to do more undergrad was a dumb idea and waste of money, I tried to convince them otherwise. Ended up wasting 3 years getting rejected, and thousands of dollars.) Don't even know if all of my things on my application will be relevant, as its past 3 years ago, and have nobody to verify I was in these positions (aside from the Council positions/hospital). Seems like I wasted my time doing them since I waited so long.
Not even sure what to do at this point. Think the only avenue is doing a post-bacc. If I do a year long one, it barely moves my GPA, and wont hit the 3.0 cutoff filter I hear most medical schools have. Feel demoralized, and like I wasted my time getting this degree. Really don't know if I can endure more than 2 years of not getting into medical school, as my life is passing me by, and my parents are getting annoyed and on the verge of kicking me out soon. Any advice helps

Just responding because I am in a very similar position. I graduated in 2015 with a terrible gpa. Feels like I wasted my time as well. I did a postbacc and have an upward trend but my gpa will never be above a 3.0. I think as long as you show you can handle upper level coursework, and do well on the MCAT, you should have some hope.

 

[SlammedNation]

Just responding because I am in a very similar position. I graduated in 2015 with a terrible gpa. Feels like I wasted my time as well. I did a postbacc and have an upward trend but my gpa will never be above a 3.0. I think as long as you show you can handle upper level coursework, and do well on the MCAT, you should have some hope.

I hope so. I've just heard from so many people that alot of these schools have a filter that don't even acknowledge anything under 3.0. So instead of wasting my time and thousands of dollars applying to schools that won't even glance at my application, I'd rather know from the jump if I should just consider something different.

 

[Goro]

Stats:
~120credits 2.7cgpa Undergrad Biomedical Sciences Degree @ State School / No MCAT

Spent the last 3 years applying to Masters programs (My parents think going back to do more undergrad was a dumb idea and waste of money, I tried to convince them otherwise. Ended up wasting 3 years getting rejected, and thousands of dollars.) Don't even know if all of my things on my application will be relevant, as its past 3 years ago, and have nobody to verify I was in these positions (aside from the Council positions/hospital). Seems like I wasted my time doing them since I waited so long.
Not even sure what to do at this point. Think the only avenue is doing a post-bacc. If I do a year long one, it barely moves my GPA, and wont hit the 3.0 cutoff filter I hear most medical schools have. Feel demoralized, and like I wasted my time getting this degree. Really don't know if I can endure more than 2 years of not getting into medical school, as my life is passing me by, and my parents are getting annoyed and on the verge of kicking me out soon. Any advice helps

Have you visited your school's learning or education center? Do you talk to your professors for help in office hours? Do you study with your friends w/classmates?

There are SMPs out there that accept people with < 3.0 GPAs.

You're in a a marathon now, not a sprint. You're in a hole and you'll need time to dig yourself out.

If your parents aren't going to fund your schooling anymore, then get a job, any job, and start saving money.

And then remember the path to being a doctor is a decade long exercise in delayed gratification.

 

[psychgirl906]

Hi, I'd appreciate any advice/help with my situation.

I graduated in September 2022 with a 3.23 cGPA and 2.95 sGPA. I have 3 C-s (first gen chem lab and both ochem labs), no MCAT yet, and pretty much 0 clinical/research/shadowing experience. I had a rough time in college due to external factors which I didn't know how to deal with properly (including a Title IX case), but I've grown a lot since then.

I am currently on a gap year and got my EMT license. I have about 9 years of non-profit work thru high school and college in 3 diff organizations.

What do I tackle first? I've been going back and forth for weeks and it's been so exhausting. Should I start studying for the MCAT and take it in Jan. 2024, or should I focus on re-taking my C- classes ASAP at a community college? Or should I get a full-time job to get clinical hours? What about research? How about post-bacc/SMP? Do I need to fix my C-'s before the post-bacc/SMP, or can I do it during/after?

I read your guide to re-invention, but I feel like I don't know what to do first. Open to MD/DO; non-URM from California if that makes a difference.

Any advice is appreciated, thank you! <3

 

[Goro]

Hi, I'd appreciate any advice/help with my situation.

I graduated in September 2022 with a 3.23 cGPA and 2.95 sGPA. I have 3 C-s (first gen chem lab and both ochem labs), no MCAT yet, and pretty much 0 clinical/research/shadowing experience. I had a rough time in college due to external factors which I didn't know how to deal with properly (including a Title IX case), but I've grown a lot since then.

I am currently on a gap year and got my EMT license. I have about 9 years of non-profit work thru high school and college in 3 diff organizations.

What do I tackle first? I've been going back and forth for weeks and it's been so exhausting. Should I start studying for the MCAT and take it in Jan. 2024, or should I focus on re-taking my C- classes ASAP at a community college? Or should I get a full-time job to get clinical hours? What about research? How about post-bacc/SMP? Do I need to fix my C-'s before the post-bacc/SMP, or can I do it during/after?

I read your guide to re-invention, but I feel like I don't know what to do first. Open to MD/DO; non-URM from California if that makes a difference.

Any advice is appreciated, thank you! <3

Tackle the easiest things first, so try shadowing a clinical volunteering. See if this path is actually the one you want.

 

[Quintomedic]

Hello, I'm looking for some advice as I'm currently feeling very lost staring at the numbers and unsure if I need to continue taking post bacc classes. I understand that many schools have a 3.0 cutoff. However, I'm to the point that I have so many credits that I am making very little progress at this point. Should I go for an SMP, will that be a 'fresh start' per se?

Some background about me:
Graduated 2016 with a BS in Marketing.
Short stent studying Forensic Science 2019-2020 with very poor grades. (Killed my Postbacc GPA)
I have been working as a paramedic since 2018.
I retook prereqs 2021-2022, with only 3 upper science classes taken.

GPA breakdown:
BCPM

Freshman 1.57 @ 7 credit hours
Sophomore 2.25 @ 8 credit hours
Junior 2.33 @ 12 credit hours
Senior (none)
Post Bacc 2.86 @ 69 credit hours
Cumulative undergrad 2.63 @ 114 credit hours


Total

Freshman 3.06 @ 31 credit hours
Sophomore 2.48 @ 25 credit hours
Junior 2.77 @ 30 credit hours
Senior 3.18 @ 38 credit hours
Post Bacc 3.04 @ 111 credit hours
Cumulative undergrad 2.91 @ 271 credit hours

Last 35 credits:
GPA: 3.553

BIO 101 (Gen Bio I) A
BIO 102 (Gen Bio II) A
CHM 111 ( Gen Chem I) A
CHM 112 ( Gen Chem II) B
CHEM 246: (Orgo Chem II Lab) A
CHEM 242 ( Orgo Chem II ) B
CHM 260: ( Intro Biochem) B
BIOL 256: (Genetics) A
BIOL 206: (Cell Bio) B
MTH 161: (Pre Algebra) B
BIOL 456: Virology A

 

[Goro]

Hello, I'm looking for some advice as I'm currently feeling very lost staring at the numbers and unsure if I need to continue taking post bacc classes. I understand that many schools have a 3.0 cutoff. However, I'm to the point that I have so many credits that I am making very little progress at this point. Should I go for an SMP, will that be a 'fresh start' per se?

Some background about me:
Graduated 2016 with a BS in Marketing.
Short stent studying Forensic Science 2019-2020 with very poor grades. (Killed my Postbacc GPA)
I have been working as a paramedic since 2018.
I retook prereqs 2021-2022, with only 3 upper science classes taken.

GPA breakdown:
BCPM

Freshman 1.57 @ 7 credit hours
Sophomore 2.25 @ 8 credit hours
Junior 2.33 @ 12 credit hours
Senior (none)
Post Bacc 2.86 @ 69 credit hours
Cumulative undergrad 2.63 @ 114 credit hours


Total

Freshman 3.06 @ 31 credit hours
Sophomore 2.48 @ 25 credit hours
Junior 2.77 @ 30 credit hours
Senior 3.18 @ 38 credit hours
Post Bacc 3.04 @ 111 credit hours
Cumulative undergrad 2.91 @ 271 credit hours

Last 35 credits:
GPA: 3.553

BIO 101 (Gen Bio I) A
BIO 102 (Gen Bio II) A
CHM 111 ( Gen Chem I) A
CHM 112 ( Gen Chem II) B
CHEM 246: (Orgo Chem II Lab) A
CHEM 242 ( Orgo Chem II ) B
CHM 260: ( Intro Biochem) B
BIOL 256: (Genetics) A
BIOL 206: (Cell Bio) B
MTH 161: (Pre Algebra) B
BIOL 456: Virology A

Yup, SMP time.
And do NOT work or be otherwise distracted during the program!

 

[therlor]

Hello, I'm a sophomore in undergrad rn. The first year I made some mistakes getting 1 D(General Chemistry 1) and 1 C-(BIO II Lab), I was wondering if this would have really bad effects, I did some GPA calculation and found out if I can get at least a 3.7 with straight As. I'm just worried as I still have Organic Chem Biochem to take. If you have any advise that would be great!

 

[Goro]

Rising GPA trends are always good.

Fix the problems that led you to doo so poorly first

 

[therlor]

Rising GPA trends are always good.

Fix the problems that led you to doo so poorly first

Okay thank you, I was worrying a lot about it but now feel better and prepared to do better this Fall!

 

[tenits]

Hello Goro,

Thank you so much for making this post! It's very helpful.

I have a few questions. I am a NY resident I went to a high school where they have college classes in the 3rd and 4th years . I took the following BMCP classes 2015- 2017:

General biology I with Lab : B
General biology 2 with lab : B-
Calculus I : C+
Medicinal chemistry: C
Genetics and Genomics: C
Statistical modeling : C

Then in college I was a humanities major on the Pre med track. I didn't do that well on my science classes, due to an illness. Edit: I have gotten treatment and doing much better now.

These are the science courses I received less than a C- in :

Organic chemistry 1: C-
Organic Chemistry 2 : D+

I graduated college in May 2022. It took me 5 years.
I started doing a DIY post bacc at my college and a nearby 4 year college under the CUNY system.
These are the classes :
Microbiology: D+
Physics 2: A-
Anatomy and Physiology 1: B+
Anatomy Lab: B

My overall sGPA, including the DIY post bacc is 2.73. My cGpa is 3.12

During my DIY post bacc, I was working for the first time and taking classes so it took me time to figure out how to juggle the two. I am sorry if I sound like I am making excuses.

Now, this week I talked to my premed advisor from my college. He said I should do a second degree in a science. I will have to apply as a transfer student, skip the gen ed requirements, and just do the major requirements. I am thinking Biology, maybe? Unsurprisingly, the college I am looking to transfer to requires Biology 1,2 and Calculus 1 for their biology degree.

What do you think I should do? What are my options?

In your post you say to not retake B or B-. I agree with that, but I am afraid the school I apply to will not accept my high school biology or calculus credits and tell me to retake it. The school might also not accept C's that I've gotten in college, especially classes needed for their biology major. I don't know how retaking C's or above look? I don't know what the school will decide on which credits transfer. I tried calling the admissions of the college, and they transferred me to the science dept. They said they caa't advise or help me until I am a matriculated student.

Another option is to continue the DIY post bacc as a non degree student. Then I can take only the science classes I want/need to boost my GPA. But, I need 30-35 credits to boost my sGPA to a 3.0. So, should I might as well get a second bachelor's degree because it will take me around same amount of credits? I can also not continue the second degree after I have classes I need. I don't know if I should even tell the school that to avoid retaking classes I did above C on and explain my situation once matriculated. Is it ethical to drop out of the degree once you got the classes you need?

I think the pro to 2nd degree is that there's federal loans you can take I think? I don't know if non degree students have that. Also, degree student tuition is cheaper by $ 100 per credit.

My biggest worry now is the credit transfer process for 2nd degree. Is it ok to retake classes if the college asks or should I take the classes on my own that I want/ need?

I haven't taken the MCAT yet. I was thinking to finishing the science classes until next year and then take the mcat a couple months later. So, I might apply in 2025.

Clinical experience:
I worked for a podiatrist for the past year. I am not sure how many hours I have, though. I can find out. I know that is not ideal clinical experience for medical schools. So, I am looking for clinical volunteering. I think I will give up my job and focus on taking my post bacc classes for a year or a bit more and then study for the mcat.

Thank you so much for your help!

 

[Goro]

Continue to take post-bac classes, and then consider an SMP.

 

[J29X]

Hey Goro!

New member here just for your advice haha..

So I'm a sort of a non-trad (graduated in 2015 with a major in Human Biology) but not will all the pre-reqs. URM first-generation!
From 2018-2022 I did a DIY post bacc part-time while working which got my cGPA from 2.90 to 3.2 and sGPA from 2.73 to 3.2.
Low uGPA because of my freshman first semester of a whopping 0.81 GPA and Spring 2012 of about 1.7 GPA (lots of personal things went on)
At least my Sophmore to Senior year my upward trend was about a 3.08 > 3.11 > 3.45 > 3.5 > 3.5 > 3.45 which I'm proud of. The post-bacc total was 3.95 and sGPA 3.95 as well with a total of 41 credits.

For EC's I have 12,000+ hours as a scribe, medical assistant, and physical therapy tech comibined. As well as working currently on reaching about 500 hours total in community service and volunteering. No research.

My question is that I have taken the MCAT 3 times now and my highest total is a 501 -- Would retaking for a fourth time this September make a difference? I have good feeling I can get a 503-505. I've already applied to 24 MD's within my range and 11 DO's for the '23/'24 cycle and waiting for verification for secondaries as we speak. Any advice would be amazing and thanks again!

 

[PikminOC]

EDIT: Post in WAMC forum for recommended school lists. This thread isn't for that.

So you want to be a doctor, but your GPA is terrible. Is that the end? Rule #1: Take a deep breath, and stop fussing. The sky is not falling.

But you are going to need to reinvent yourself. This will take both time and money. And always remember that you’re in a marathon now, not a sprint. The following advice holds true for people considering MD and DO. I strongly recommend that you keep both in mind, and the latter is more tolerant of reinvention.

An even better summary to the next paragraph is provided by the wise HomeSkool here: Simple rules for retaking courses

Here’s what you need to do :

a) Contact your UG school's Registrar and see if you can get retroactive withdrawals for the failed classes. This is a thing at some schools and the worst that they'll tell you is "no".

b) IF you have F/D/C- grades in the pre-reqs, retake them. You need to show that you can master this material, and it will help you for MCAT (assuming that you haven’t taken the MCAT). In addition, many schools require a C or higher grade in pre-reqs. Naturally, this will vary from school to school.

If you got C's, take some upper level science classes and ace them. There is no need to retake a C unless you are very weak on the material and you need it for MCAT. Never, ever retake a B or B-.

If the material was from a long time ago, and you got a B, but you feel you need a refresher for the MCAT, simply audit the course instead.

c) There are MD schools that reward reinvention. All DO schools do. The DO path will be a little easier, but both still require an investment of 1-2 years of not GPA repair, but of transcript repair.

d) The goal is NOT to raise your cGPA to a sky high level (for some people this is mathematically impossible), but rather show that the you of now is not the you of then, and that you can handle a medical school curriculum. So do not worry that your cGPA will be 3.2 upon applying after finishing your post-bac/GPA. Rising GPA trends are always looked highly upon, and many med schools weight the last 2-3 years more than the entire cGPA.

e) Thus, take 1-2 years of a DIY post-bac, or a 1 year SMP, preferably one given at a medical school. Do well in either of these programs. A 3.5+ should suffice for a DO school, while 3.7+ will be needed for an MD school

5) in addition to d), your MCAT score will determine where to aim. I suggest:

513+ : MD schools

510+ : your state MD school and any DO school

505+: any DO school

On top of these, get as much patient contact volunteering time in as possible. A trend I am seeing from SDNers who have received interviews from good schools and who also reinvented themselves, is that they have lots of clinical volunteering or employment...some even in the 1000s of hours.

As to the pluses and minuses of post-bac vs SMP:

A formal post-bac program is geared toward career switchers, and mostly provide the pre-reqs, and probably some MCAT advice/prep as well. You get faculty guidance in this and some programs seem to be feeders to med schools for non-trad students. They will cost more though.

Now, you can do the same thing on your own by simply taking continuing education courses at any nearby college. A four year school will be preferable to a community college (CC), but if costs are an issue, then a CC will be OK. This path is what is known here in SDN as the “DIY post-bac.” Costs will be less, but there’s no guidance.

What classes should one take in a DIY post-bac??? Things that mimic a medical school curriculum!

Anatomy
Biochem
Bioinformatics
Biostats
Cell Bio
Developmental Biology or Embryology
Epidemiology
Histology
Immunology
Medical and/or Molecular Genetics
Med Micro OR Bacteriology and/or Virology
Molecular Bio
Neuroscience or Neurobiology
Parasitology (if offered)
Pathology
Physiology
Tumor or Cancer Biology

An SMP (special master’s program) is one that offers medical school classes, or material that’s taught in medical school. There are some two year SMPs, but I don’t see any advantage to these over one year programs.

These can be a backdoor into med school, and you get real advice from med school faculty (if given at a med school). Plus, you're a known quantity to the Adcom members, who will frequently be your SMP faculty.

The down side is that the tuition will be more considerable. You may also have to relocate in order to attend one. Also, if you do poorly, your SMP degree is worthless, unless the program has an added-value component, like some research venue. Thus, SMPs are more high risk, but also high reward.

I don't give recommendations as to individual SMPs or post-bac programs, because they're pretty much a dime-a-dozen.. You should go for:

1) the cheapest tuition
2) a program given at a host medical school
3) is one year in length
4) has the best linkage deal.

One final word of warning: Do NOT take the MCAT while enrolled in an SMP. We’ve seen students do this, and it leads to disaster. Some programs require an MCAT, so that solves the problem (although they may have a minimum score requirement!).

And remember, med schools aren’t going anywhere, and in fact, by the time you apply, several more will have opened their doors.

Good luck!

Aren't their limits on how long mcat is good for? And the more med schools that open the more competitive residency gets right?

 

[tenits]

Continue to take post-bac classes, and then consider an SMP.

Hello Goro,
thank you for your response!
Should I do DIY post bacc or second degree? Also, what GPA do I need for most SMP? Do they also seperate sGPA and cGPA? Thank you!

 

[Goro]

Aren't their limits on how long mcat is good for?

Yes

And the more med schools that open the more competitive residency gets right?

As of right now, there are still more total residency slots than MD and DO grads, nut that's not going to last forever, at the rate schools are opening. I've heard that several DO schools are still interviewing as late as this month (not mine, thank Gawd!)

i agree that the competitive specialties will naturally get more competitive. Unfortunately for many students, the AOA mindset is "more DOs good!"

 

[Goro]

Hello Goro,
thank you for your response!
Should I do DIY post bacc or second degree? Also, what GPA do I need for most SMP? Do they also seperate sGPA and cGPA? Thank you!

I don't think that a second degree is ever worth it. A year of great grades and a good MCAT is enough to show reinvention. So, continue with your post-bac work, but you have to be better at time mgt.

 

[PikminOC]

Yes

As of right now, there are still more total residency slots than MD and DO grads, nut that's not going to last forever, at the rate schools are opening. I've heard that several DO schools are still interviewing as late as this month (not mine, thank Gawd!)

i agree that the competitive specialties will naturally get more competitive. Unfortunately for many students, the AOA mindset is "more DOs good!"

Then why are there doctors without residency? Are you factoring in the img grads? Licensed Without a Residency — Inside the Match

And more do good $$$$

 

[tenits]

I don't think that a second degree is ever worth it. A year of great grades and a good MCAT is enough to show reinvention. So, continue with your post-bac work, but you have to be better at time mgt.

Is 1 to 1.5 years of post bacc and MCAT enough to show reinvention or should I do an SMP as well?
Thank you!

 

[Goro]

Is 1 to 1.5 years of post bacc and MCAT enough to show reinvention or should I do an SMP as well?
Thank you!

I think the post back will be fine

 

[tenits]

I think the post back will be fine

Thank you, @Goro ! I appreciate all your help

 

[Doc2Be93]

Hi Goro, I was just wondering what I should do in case this cycle doesn't work in my favor. I have a 2.4 sgpa and a 2.6 cgpa. I graduated in 2015 and my last 30 pb credits are a 3.9. What should my next steps be? More postbacc? Apply to an SMP? TIA.