Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention (updated for 2021)

[Goro]

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Your plans are sound.
Do not take the MCAT until you are 100% ready for it.

 

[Good Kidd Born Sinner]

Your plans are sound.
Do not take the MCAT until you are 100% ready for it.

Thanks for the insight. And I completely agree regarding the bolded.

 

[LLB03]

Hey Goro do you know if med schools see all of your MCAT attempts or just your most recent?

 

[CBass2288]

Hey Goro do you know if med schools see all of your MCAT attempts or just your most recent?

ALL attempts will be seen, including expired ones.

 

[stonecutter4991]

@Goro @Calizboosted76 - Stoked to be finally tagging you both after all this time. I have been looking forward to this day for a while!

I found this forum in the winter of 2023 after deciding to take the leap and pursue my old dream of medicine - I spent the first few days reading every single post in this thread, and the one before. Like many here, I was a mediocre, unfocused student during some of my undergrad years. For me, this was compounded by a catastrophic injury that took several years to heal and I lacked the maturity to deal with it and engage fully with work and school. I am not able to retroactively withdraw from any failed classes.

GPA/Post Bacc:

I was hoping to pull the undergrad total up over the 3.0 mark! I am continuing to take classes, so it'll get there soon enough. My Post-Bacc was very prereq focused - Physics 1&2, Ochem 1&2, BioChem, Genetics, etc. It was DIY across 2 schools (State University and CC) - neither college in my hometown has a robust night class schedule, so I needed to use both so I could make a schedule that accommodated my work commitments.

I took 8-10 credits most semesters and in the summer over my post bacc, all in person. I also work full time (corporate finance), teach as faculty part time at the business school attached to my big state university, studied for the MCAT, did research, volunteered, shadowed, and did some other stuff I will list below. I feel confident that I demonstrated I have the ability to handle a med school course load.

Other Stats:
MCAT: 517

Research: 300 hours, viral entomology. I will be first author on a paper we are submitting to journals Fall 2025. Presented a poster at a conference, and was a finalist in the oral presentation category.

Clinical (paid): 2000+ hours, ENT, all of which is about a decade old - lots of rural medicine, all direct patient contact (MA).

Other employment: 10000 hours, professional corporate finance at a fortune 50, 1000 hours as a lifeguard

Teaching/Leadership: 2500 hours, teaching a university excel skills class since 2020 (started as a TA, now faculty)

Volunteer (non-clinical): 400+ hours, under-served communities focused (Big Brothers Big Sisters, unhoused outreach)

Shadowing: 80 hours from 2012 (ENT), another 80 or so in the last year across ortho, ENT and oncology.

Letters: I expect a very, very strong letter from the Doctor that I was employed with - I have done most of my shadowing back at his clinic. I expect a very strong letter from my PI (also my Ochem2 professor), a very strong letter from my Physics professor, and a very strong letter from a finance professor from undergrad/grad school (he also is a supervisor for my teaching so he will discuss both in his letter). I also have strong letters lined up from my work supervisor and my biochem professor, if I need them.

No Institutional Actions or anything like that

NM Resident, ORM

Current School List - MD:
UNM
Colorado
Arizona (Tucson)
Vermont
Hawaii (why not)
Rosalind Franklin
Loyola
Northwestern (donation)
Pritzker (donation)
Yale (donation)
Keck
Georgetown
George Washington
Drexel
Vanderbilt
Boston U
Tufts
Icahn
Dartmouth
Tulane
Rochester
Wayne State

Current School List - DO:
COMP-Northwest
Touro - California
Touro - Harlem
UNECOM
RVUCOM-Colorado
MSUCOM

Have I demonstrated reinvention? What schools here are stupid to waste money on? I'd like to have a few reaches, and I have family in Chicago. Schools I should add? I need help with the DO list especially. I can't go anywhere in Kentucky, Florida, New Jersey, or North Carolina (bummer) due to wife's professional license.

Thank you for all of the help you have given me over the last 18 months!
Stonecutter

 

[Goro]

NM Resident, ORM

Below is amore reasonable list:

Current School List - MD:
UNM
Vermont
Rosalind Franklin
Loyola
Keck (maybe)
Georgetown
George Washington
Drexel
Vanderbilt
Boston U
Tufts
Icahn
Dartmouth
Tulane
Wayne State
Albany, Drexel, TCU, Creighton, SLU

Current School List - DO:
COMP-Northwest
Touro - California
Touro - Harlem
MSUCOM, TUNCOM, AZCOM, KCOM, ARCOM, DMU, MUCOM, Western, KCU, ACOM, WCU, CUSOM, CalHealth, all VCOMs, SamHoustonCOM, UIW

Have I demonstrated reinvention?

Yes indeed! Forget reaches and "why not" schools, they don't need the money. Take your mom out for Mother's Day instead.

 

[stonecutter4991]

Yes indeed! Forget reaches and "why not" schools, they don't need the money. Take your mom out for Mother's Day instead.

Alright sounds good - thanks @Goro! One more question - thoughts on BCOM, RVUCOM, Temple, Rush, Western Michigan, and NYMC? Sorry - just looked at the admit . org list as well and these were listed as well.

 

[cheesepierogi]

Given my GPA throughout college, should I still consider doing a post bacc? If so how many credits should I take? @Goro


My GPA from my first two years of undergrad was a below a 3.0 (2.79 to be exact😬😬). This was my GPA breakdown for the last 1.5-2 years of college:

Sem 1: 3.91

Sem 2: 3.77

Sem 3: 3.84

Sem 4: 2.21

Sem 5: 4.0


The fourth semester brought my GPA from a 3.85 to a 3.58😬 Does this still count as a strong upward trend? I was still able to graduate with honors, but I know this is still low for medical school. The fourth semester and my undergraduate GPA are haunting me. I’m currently in one of my gap years. Do I need an SMP or a post bacc (DIY or formal)? And is this still considered a strong upward trend?

Other details:

1300+ clinical hours and counting (I work full time as an opthalmic technician), 320 research hours, and for volunteering I just started working at an animal shelter but I’m looking for other opportunities as well. No MCAT or shadowing yet, but there are some research opportunities at the clinic I work at so I’m looking forward to those. I will also be scribing in a few weeks so that will go towards shadowing. I plan to apply to medical school in 2-3 years.

 

[Goro]

Alright sounds good - thanks @Goro! One more question - thoughts on BCOM, RVUCOM, Temple, Rush, Western Michigan, and NYMC? Sorry - just looked at the admit . org list as well and these were listed as well.

I can't recommend for-profit schools.
Temple, Rush, NYMC go for. Also consider Emory.

 

[Goro]

Given my GPA throughout college, should I still consider doing a post bacc? If so how many credits should I take? @Goro


My GPA from my first two years of undergrad was a below a 3.0 (2.79 to be exact😬😬). This was my GPA breakdown for the last 1.5-2 years of college:

Sem 1: 3.91

Sem 2: 3.77

Sem 3: 3.84

Sem 4: 2.21

Sem 5: 4.0


The fourth semester brought my GPA from a 3.85 to a 3.58😬 Does this still count as a strong upward trend? I was still able to graduate with honors, but I know this is still low for medical school. The fourth semester and my undergraduate GPA are haunting me. I’m currently in one of my gap years. Do I need an SMP or a post bacc (DIY or formal)? And is this still considered a strong upward trend?

Other details:

1300+ clinical hours and counting (I work full time as an opthalmic technician), 320 research hours, and for volunteering I just started working at an animal shelter but I’m looking for other opportunities as well. No MCAT or shadowing yet, but there are some research opportunities at the clinic I work at so I’m looking forward to those. I will also be scribing in a few weeks so that will go towards shadowing. I plan to apply to medical school in 2-3 years.

Give me year by year for both sGPA and cGPA, please. We don't look at semesters.

What happened in Semester 4???

 

[cheesepierogi]

Give me year by year for both sGPA and cGPA, please. We don't look at semesters.

What happened in Semester 4???

Freshman: 2.954 sGPA, 3.112 cGPA
Sophomore: 2.163 sGPA, 2.497 cGPA
Junior: 3.150 sGPA, 3.553 cGPA
Senior: 2.976 sGPA, 3.379 cGPA

As for semester 4, I underestimated my courseload (genetics, neuropharmacology and molecular and cellular neuroscience). I think I definitely overextended myself with coursework and extracurriculars and didn’t manage my time as effectively as I should’ve.

 

[Goro]

Freshman: 2.954 sGPA, 3.112 cGPA
Sophomore: 2.163 sGPA, 2.497 cGPA
Junior: 3.150 sGPA, 3.553 cGPA
Senior: 2.976 sGPA, 3.379 cGPA

As for semester 4, I underestimated my courseload (genetics, neuropharmacology and molecular and cellular neuroscience). I think I definitely overextended myself with coursework and extracurriculars and didn’t manage my time as effectively as I should’ve.

I can't sugar coat this, it doesn't look good. 🙁

 

[cheesepierogi]

I can't sugar coat this, it doesn't look good. 🙁

I agree, and I’m starting to feel like it may be time to strongly consider another career 🙁 what do you think? Do I still have a chance with doing a diy post bacc?

 

[Goro]

I agree, and I’m starting to feel like it may be time to strongly consider another career 🙁 what do you think? Do I still have a chance with doing a diy post bacc?

Absolutely! There are many med schools that reward reinvention.
Read this:
Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention (updated for 2021)

 

[cheesepierogi]

Absolutely! There are many med schools that reward reinvention.
Read this:
Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention (updated for 2021)

Okay great! Just read through and my local CC offers a lot of those courses. Should I take the labs too or just the lecture? And is it okay if I take the classes online or do med schools prefer that we take in person classes?

 

[Ashul]

Hello! Hope all is well. @Goro I needed some advice on a couple things regarding my application cycle, specifically my reinvention process and my school list.

I had a rough undergrad experience due to loss and taking care of a sick family member that resulted in poor management, poor studying habits, immaturity, etc. Therefore, I graduated with a low cumulative and science gpa. Post grad, I have worked on reinvention.


Reside in tristate area
African American
Major: Biology

Clinical experience: Over 4500 hours of employment
lots of non-clinical employment as well throughout undergrad (Over 1000 hours)
Volunteer experience: All non-clinical, over 1000 hours
Leadership experience: Leaderships roles in three university organizations, including President of one
Research experience: Research team for maternal health, 1 semester of Research on cancer with epidemiologists
Shadowing experience: 40 hours with MD-Cardiology

6 LORs from 3 Professors ( 2 science), 1 MD, 1 Research mentor, 1 Hospital Department Manager
I believe I have a strong personal statement as well that conveys my story and why medicine.


GPA (After a 4.0 in 30 credits of DIY post bacc ): cGPA: 3.3// sGPA: 2.92 for AMCAS 3.3 for AACOMAS **My trend is inconsistent throughout college, with up and down semesters. my second to last semester was horrible. Got a 2.7 of 19 credits. my last semester of college was a 4.0 15 credits, so I have a consistent trend of 45 credits of a 4.0 from that last semester up until now**
MCAT: Taking soon but maybe between 505-510

Questions
1. I am nervous about that 2.9 science gpa being screened out. However, because of the amount of credits I've taken, i'd require about 3 more classes, which won't be cheap and I won't get my final grades until late June/ early July. Should I still go through to get it to that 3.0, and will the late primary application submission hurt me even more?

2. What schools should I apply to?

3. Due to low GPA, what MCAT should i aim for to apply? If it is on the lower end of 500s, should I still apply this cycle and see what happens?

I really want to apply this cycle, but I also do not want to deter myself if there are still major areas of improvement needed to be done and if I haven't shown significant reinvention. Just wanted some advice on how to go about this cycle.

Thank you!

 

[Goro]

Okay great! Just read through and my local CC offers a lot of those courses. Should I take the labs too or just the lecture? And is it okay if I take the classes online or do med schools prefer that we take in person classes?

Most of the schools that have prereq requirements will ask for labs along with lecture.

As covid is over, take classes in person

 

[unc_jack_of_A]

Hi Goro,

I was wondering how masters degrees that are medicine adjacent looked at for applications?

Would they speak to a similar effect of an SMP?

And are favorable gradGPAs considered by schools more strongly if you have an undergrad gpa that’s on the lower end.
But now also have a strong science post-bacc of about twenty credits. Was this enough credits?

Thank you!

 

[zappyapples]

Hello Goro (or whoever knows),

I was recently admitted to a few SMPs, but the price tag on them is honestly making me nervous. I'm already 50k in debt from undergrad, and another 50k minimum tuition plus living expenses would put me at well over 100k. I know you're not a financial advisor, but are SMPs this worth it? I'm very wary of the possibility I could do well and still not make it into med school, and could be in a financial hole afterwards. A lot of them offer 85% or so medical school matriculation rates, but what if I'm part of that unlucky 15% that doesn't make it in...

My MCAT is 509 for reference. Thanks to whoever has any insight.

 

[unc_jack_of_A]

Hello Goro (or whoever knows),

I was recently admitted to a few SMPs, but the price tag on them is honestly making me nervous. I'm already 50k in debt from undergrad, and another 50k minimum tuition plus living expenses would put me at well over 100k. I know you're not a financial advisor, but are SMPs this worth it? I'm very wary of the possibility I could do well and still not make it into med school, and could be in a financial hole afterwards. A lot of them offer 85% or so medical school matriculation rates, but what if I'm part of that unlucky 15% that doesn't make it in...

My MCAT is 509 for reference. Thanks to whoever has any insight.

I'm curious what your gpas / ECs look like in terms of how competitive you'd be to apply without doing a SMP.

 

[Goro]

Hello Goro (or whoever knows),

I was recently admitted to a few SMPs, but the price tag on them is honestly making me nervous. I'm already 50k in debt from undergrad, and another 50k minimum tuition plus living expenses would put me at well over 100k. I know you're not a financial advisor, but are SMPs this worth it? I'm very wary of the possibility I could do well and still not make it into med school, and could be in a financial hole afterwards. A lot of them offer 85% or so medical school matriculation rates, but what if I'm part of that unlucky 15% that doesn't make it in...

My MCAT is 509 for reference. Thanks to whoever has any insight.

They're high risk, but high reward.
If cost is an issue, do a DIY postbac instead.

 

[Goro]

I was wondering how masters degrees that are medicine adjacent looked at and their GPAs like both MPH / healthcare MBA, for applications?

Would they speak to a similar effect of an SMP?

Nope, especially an MBA.




And are favorable gradGPAs (3.7+) considered by schools more strongly if you have an undergrad gpa that’s on the lower end (no definitive upward trend except, slight increase in the last year of ug):


*Includes: 4.0 DIY science post-bacc
of a mix of ~20+ credits in one 400, and 200/100 level classes taken between a large university and community.

In DIY postbcs, yes.



(Was a ~20 credit DIY enough here?

You should have about 30ish credits.

 

[Futureleader2024]

Given my GPA throughout college, should I still consider doing a post bacc? If so how many credits should I take? @Goro


My GPA from my first two years of undergrad was a below a 3.0 (2.79 to be exact😬😬). This was my GPA breakdown for the last 1.5-2 years of college:

Sem 1: 3.91

Sem 2: 3.77

Sem 3: 3.84

Sem 4: 2.21

Sem 5: 4.0


The fourth semester brought my GPA from a 3.85 to a 3.58😬 Does this still count as a strong upward trend? I was still able to graduate with honors, but I know this is still low for medical school. The fourth semester and my undergraduate GPA are haunting me. I’m currently in one of my gap years. Do I need an SMP or a post bacc (DIY or formal)? And is this still considered a strong upward trend?

Other details:

1300+ clinical hours and counting (I work full time as an opthalmic technician), 320 research hours, and for volunteering I just started working at an animal shelter but I’m looking for other opportunities as well. No MCAT or shadowing yet, but there are some research opportunities at the clinic I work at so I’m looking forward to those. I will also be scribing in a few weeks so that will go towards shadowing. I plan to apply to medical school in 2-3 years.

You could do a masters program that is a bridge program. That may give you a better shot

 

[Timetocrunch]

Hey Goro (or anyone knowledgable) , I was hoping you could give me some feedback on my school list. I showed my app to my schools premed advising and shared it online with a fair amount of people and feel as if everyone hyped me up a little too much. I'm worried my list is wayyyy to top heavy. I have already submitted with the schools below but have the money to add around 10 more schools.

Verified AMCAS GPA

GPA total cGPA 3.48 sGPA 3.73

Freshman cGPA 1.80 sGPA 0.00 Hours: 20

Sophomore cGPA 2.79 sGPA 3.60 Hours: 28

Junior cGPA 4.00 sGPA 4.00 Hours 30

Senior cGPA 3.96 sGPA 3.94 Hours: 70



I took 3 semesters worth of classes back in 2013 and failed nearly everything. Got an IA for academics. Came back to school after Covid wrecked my small business nearly a decade later, started in CC then transferred to a 4 year for all of my prerequisites and science courses.



MCAT 520 (130/132/127/131)

Low SES, ORM, in IL, finishing undergrad at a large state school.

LOR should be strong. One PI, two science, one non science, one employer, and one premed advisor letter

Clinical experience : 5,000+ in direct patient contact. Worked as MRI assistant tech for 3 years then part time as a unit secretary for a year and briefly in patient transport for 4 months

Research experience and productivity: 5 abstracts/posters, 1 oral presentation, should have submitted a first author publication by the time secondaries come out.

Shadowing experience and specialties represented: IR shadowing 6 hours, PM&R shadowing 10 hours

Non-clinical volunteering: Special needs summer camp: 80 hours, State government sponsored healthcare oversight committee: 35 hours, Literacy focused non-profit working in Chicago in some of the poorest areas: 40 hours, Meals on Wheels: 25 hours

Other extracurricular activities (including athletics, military service, gap year activities, leadership, teaching, etc): Started and ran a company, built it from scratch to a profitable business. Hoping the uniqueness of my company will help make this my "X" factor. Tutoring, marathon/triathlon, disc golf at a competitive level, ran a YMCA leadership program,

Relevant honors or awards: Dean's List, Honor society, distinction in Neuroscience, full Latin honors, 2*AHA Summer Research Grant (employed by the PI after grant ended.), several large institutional scholarships for academic achievement.

I’m worried I may have shot myself in the foot with my school list and want to add some more schools to make sure I don’t have to redo this process. My current list which I have already submitted is:

SCHOOLS ON MY AMCAS

Donations-Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, Yale, Weill Cornell, Penn, WashU, Mayo, Duke, Michigan, Northwestern, UChicago



Reach-Pitt, Dartmouth, Einstein, Case Western, Emory, UVA, Colorado, Cincinnati



Target-Iowa, Wisconsin, Thomas Jefferson, Wake Forest, UIC, Rush, Loyola, Rosalind Franklin, Penn State, VCU, Miami



Baseline-Western Michigan, Medical College of Wisconsin, University at Buffalo, Michigan State,

 

[Goro]

Hey Goro (or anyone knowledgable) , I was hoping you could give me some feedback on my school list. I showed my app to my schools premed advising and shared it online with a fair amount of people and feel as if everyone hyped me up a little too much. I'm worried my list is wayyyy to top heavy. I have already submitted with the schools below but have the money to add around 10 more schools.



I’m worried I may have shot myself in the foot with my school list and want to add some more schools to make sure I don’t have to redo this process. My current list which I have already submitted is:

SCHOOLS ON MY AMCAS

Donations-Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, Yale, Weill Cornell, Penn, WashU, Mayo, Duke, Michigan, Northwestern, UChicago

Reach-Pitt, Dartmouth, Einstein, Case Western, Emory, UVA, Colorado, Cincinnati
Target-Iowa, Wisconsin, Thomas Jefferson, Wake Forest, UIC, Rush, Loyola, Rosalind Franklin, Penn State, VCU, Miami

Baseline-Western Michigan, Medical College of Wisconsin, University at Buffalo, Michigan State,

Your nonclinical volunteering looks lethally weak. It makes it look like you start things but can't finish them. My Adcom colleague @Mr.Smile12 tells us that he doesn't even count hrs under 50.
Rush, Loyola, Rosalind Franklin, Penn State, MCW SUNY-B will resource protect you out, figuring correctly that you'll go somewhere else.

 

[Timetocrunch]

Your nonclinical volunteering looks lethally weak. It makes it look like you start things but can't finish them. My Adcom colleague @Mr.Smile12 tells us that he doesn't even count hrs under 50.
Rush, Loyola, Rosalind Franklin, Penn State, MCW SUNY-B will resource protect you out, figuring correctly that you'll go somewhere else.

Yeah the non clinical volunteering is not great. The one 35 hour one is over a year or so. We meet once a month for a state government board.

The special needs summer camp is one long weekend a year for 3 years. These are the only two I actually included on the primary but figured I could maybe briefly mention the others if I had room in secondaries.

"Lethally weak" and then"...figuring correctly that you'll go somewhere else." has me confused. Does this mean I don't need to add any school or that its not worth adding more "baseline" schools? I unfortunately can't add any volunteering on this cycle.

@Mr.Smile12 reviewed my personal statement and has been super helpful. If you have any suggestions please help! I really would like to get this right the first time.

 

[Goro]

Yeah the non clinical volunteering is not great. The one 35 hour one is over a year or so. We meet once a month for a state government board.

The special needs summer camp is one long weekend a year for 3 years. These are the only two I actually included on the primary but figured I could maybe briefly mention the others if I had room in secondaries.

"Lethally weak" and then"...figuring correctly that you'll go somewhere else." has me confused. Does this mean I don't need to add any school or that its not worth adding more "baseline" schools? I unfortunately can't add any volunteering on this cycle.

@Mr.Smile12 reviewed my personal statement and has been super helpful. If you have any suggestions please help! I really would like to get this right the first time.

Once you get in 200 hrs of helping people who are less fortunate than you, there are many good schools for you to apply to, like UCSF, COLUMBIA, to name two.

 

[Timetocrunch]

Once you get in 200 hrs of helping people who are less fortunate than you, there are many good schools for you to apply to, like UCSF, COLUMBIA, to name two.

Thanks for the feedback. Not sure what I can do about it for this cycle but will keep at the commitments I have going on now. Should be well past 200 this time next year.