MD & DO Goro’s guide to success in medical school (2017 ed.)

[Crayola227]

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[IslandStyle808]

I don't have the citation handy, but there is published data on high Step I scores that reports that they use a multiplicity of resources. We and others see the the same thing from surveys from students.

Gawd, I've been posting the same advice for med student success for about three years running. Who'd think such a can of worms would be opened???!! And so many raw nerves? People are actually wounded! The outrage! You'd think that textbooks were made from human tissue!

I have a feeling what your students are referring as 'multiplicity of resources' to is no different than what has been stated by the student here. The UFAP (UWorld, First Aid, Pathoma combo) with maybe one outside resource (ex. BRS or B&B). I spoke with a friend of mine who is a resident and he has said not to spread one's self too thin with too many resources beyond the ones stated above. Just like the others have stated.

 

[Psych_hopeful]

I have a feeling what your students are referring as 'multiplicity of resources' to is no different than what has been stated by the student here. The UFAP (UWorld, First Aid, Pathoma combo) with maybe one outside resource (ex. BRS or B&B). I spoke with a friend of mine who is a resident and he has said not to spread one's self too thin with too many resources beyond the ones stated above. Just like the others have stated.

More than the resources is how quickly you internalize them. Efficiency is everything in medicine and if you arent quick or you procrastinate, the consequences can be devastating later on. That's what I feel.

 

[Goro]

Mind posting said studies? There are also the probable confounder that people who use more resources are simply studying more than people who use less resources. I've seen multiple threads from 270+ people who devoted hundreds of hours memorizing multiple resources which is simply not possible in the typical 6 week test prep period. In my experience for the typical us Med student with 6 weeks of step studying the answer is ufap ufap ufap. Mastering that material definitely puts one in 260+ territory with good test taking skills.

And I think people are just discussing your claims and the validation behind them. No need to get so defensive...

Jeeze, sliceo, you put me through the wringer to try and mine PubMed for what was a fleeting memory!

Anyway, after going through about ten different search parameters, I found the paper that I was thinking of. Caveat: the paper was actually on COMLEX, not USMLE, and YES, USMLE =/= COMLEX (although they do correlate, see the last citation).

Some of the middle of the pack papers are more oblique to our discussion, but they fit into the theme that both you and I agree on: successful students use a multiplicity of resources for Board prep (and success in med school).

SDNers are still advised that what works for you is all well and good, but it may or may not work for your classmate sitting next to you. From the 5000 foot level, I've seen what lots of weak and good students do. My point is, don't be like the weak students. Capeesh?

Predictors of scoring at least 600 on COMLEX-USA Level 1: successful preparation strategies.

PMID: 23412678


Investigating the Impact of Preparation Strategies on USMLE Step 1 Performance.

PMID: 27500163


The impact of a peer-designed and -led USMLE Step 1 review course: improvement in preparation and scores.

PMID: 20881702


A Predictive Model for USMLE Step 1 Scores

PMID: 27738569


Student USMLE step 1 preparation and performance.

PMID: 15583484


Medical student use of digital learning resources.

PMID: 28300343


Interesting in a different viewpoint:

Are the kids alright? Review books and the internet as the most common study resources for the general surgery clerkship.

PMID: 28237045


Medical Subspecialty Textbooks in the 21st Century. Essential or Headed for Extinction?

PMID: 26177458


Impact of online learning modules on medical student microbiology examination scores.

PMID: 23653820


Effect of electronic versus print format and different reading resources on knowledge acquisition in the third-year medicine clerkship.

PMID: 16197322



This one might be interesting for you new MS2s:


Impacting student anxiety for the USMLE Step 1 through process-oriented preparation.


PMID: 20198129


For new OMSIIs

The Use of COMLEX-USA and USMLE for Residency Applicant Selection.

PMID: 27413438

 

[Anicetus]

I think I go to a magical medical school, University of Exceptions, because the people who got 250+ just made uworld/FA their life and didn't buy or read a single textbook. Meanwhile there are those goober med students who DID buy and read the textbooks and those people flopped on step 1 due to information overload. Some even got sent to the psych counselor to be tested for disabilities when they couldn't remember every concept they "read to understand" when they could've made their lives easier and just stuck to FA/uworld. I don't know what all this talk is about metformin MOA and the lot, but none of that was on ANY shelf, NBME, or step 1 exam that I took or it WOULD be put in FA. N=Thousands.

Make your lives easier and stick to uworld/FA like the thousands of students before you who did just that to get great step scores.

Yes being a doctor isn't about a good step 1, but you can admit that while you're in your Los Angeles plastic surgery residency instead of Oklahoma family med.

 

[cellsaver]

I don't have the citation handy, but there is published data on high Step I scores that reports that they use a multiplicity of resources. We and others see the the same thing from surveys from students.

AAMC: Are Questions the Answer? The Effect of Popular Study Resources on USMLE Step 1 Performance

Gawd, I've been posting the same advice for med student success for about three years running. Who'd think such a can of worms would be opened???!! And so many raw nerves? People are actually wounded! The outrage! You'd think that textbooks were made from human tissue!

Jeeze, sliceo, you put me through the wringer to try and mine PubMed for what was a fleeting memory!

Anyway, after going through about ten different search parameters, I found the paper that I was thinking of.

Theyve got you so trained.

Grand Mistress Crayola would know best but perhaps Goro gets off on being of service to others in the Leather Bootlicker sense, and then as a sub enjoys taking a flogging here and there. Crisco or just spit?

Tongue firmly placed in cheek. Oink oink

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I think I go to a magical medical school, University of Exceptions, because the people who got 250+ just made uworld/FA their life and didn't buy or read a single textbook. Meanwhile there are those goober med students who DID buy and read the textbooks and those people flopped on step 1 due to information overload. Some even got sent to the psych counselor to be tested for disabilities when they couldn't remember every concept they "read to understand" when they could've made their lives easier and just stuck to FA/uworld. I don't know what all this talk is about metformin MOA and the lot, but none of that was on ANY shelf, NBME, or step 1 exam that I took or it WOULD be put in FA. N=Thousands.

Make your lives easier and stick to uworld/FA like the thousands of students before you who did just that to get great step scores.

Yes being a doctor isn't about a good step 1, but you can admit that while you're in your Los Angeles plastic surgery residency instead of Oklahoma family med.

Yes because everyone everywhere wants nothing more than to be a plastic surgeon in LA. Well reasoned.

 

[Stagg737]

Go talk to the professor and tell them that they need to be more specific.
Then complain to the school's Curriculum Committee, and the Dean.
See how the Chapters compare with the PPT notes. Consider most chapter have sub-chapters, sections, etc, and these often have key points. Start with those and work outwards.
For example, on say, vomiting and diarrhea, start with the normal physiology, then work out to pathophysiology, and then to causes, and thence to Dx and Tx.

And I expect you to know the anatomy of the GI tract too!

In my experience, and the experience of friends at other schools, the first line does absolutely nothing most of the time. Maybe they change things for future classes, but I can count far more cases where the professors say "go look it up" (sometimes rightfully so) than actually doing anything to teach the material better. To the second bolded line, again, this does absolutely nothing unless the class complains en masse about a professor or subject. Even then, some schools say "it's worked well-enough for classes in the past, deal with it". Maybe your school listens to every student's complaint (I feel fortunate that my school did as well, but we were also the guinea pig class for a new curriculum), but I know plenty of schools where the admins basically laugh and say "suck it up".

The non-bolded is better advice. regardless of how crappy a professor is, some amount of independent learning is essential for medical school. My only point was that for 50k/year that learning should at least be directed and not "This week you need to learn chapters 24-26 of Robbins, good luck".

I think better advice would be to ask the class above you what they did. If no one bought book A, then you're probably OK. If lots of people bought book B, I would suggest buying it.

This is the best advice that could be given. Talk to a number of people in the class above you (not just 1 or 2) and find out which textbooks they bought, what resources were good for what sections, and if there were any "recommended" resources that were actually low-yield or a waste of time. Curriculums vary a lot from school to school and there's no better resource than the people who have already been through the exact same thing you're about to attempt.

 

[Anicetus]

Yes because everyone everywhere wants nothing more than to be a plastic surgeon in LA. Well reasoned.

I'll tone down the exaggeration: once you have your desired specialty in your desired location instead of having to settle for your second choice specialty in your far from first choice location in the country is when you can admit to the fact that step 1 doesn't equate to your ability to save lives.

 

[Anicetus]

Jeeze, sliceo, you put me through the wringer to try and mine PubMed for what was a fleeting memory!

Anyway, after going through about ten different search parameters, I found the paper that I was thinking of. Caveat: the paper was actually on COMLEX, not USMLE, and YES, USMLE =/= COMLEX (although they do correlate, see the last citation).

Some of the middle of the pack papers are more oblique to our discussion, but they fit into the theme that both you and I agree on: successful students use a multiplicity of resources for Board prep (and success in med school).

SDNers are still advised that what works for you is all well and good, but it may or may not work for your classmate sitting next to you. From the 5000 foot level, I've seen what lots of weak and good students do. My point is, don't be like the weak students. Capeesh?

Predictors of scoring at least 600 on COMLEX-USA Level 1: successful preparation strategies.

PMID: 23412678


Investigating the Impact of Preparation Strategies on USMLE Step 1 Performance.

PMID: 27500163


The impact of a peer-designed and -led USMLE Step 1 review course: improvement in preparation and scores.

PMID: 20881702


A Predictive Model for USMLE Step 1 Scores

PMID: 27738569


Student USMLE step 1 preparation and performance.

PMID: 15583484


Medical student use of digital learning resources.

PMID: 28300343


Interesting in a different viewpoint:

Are the kids alright? Review books and the internet as the most common study resources for the general surgery clerkship.

PMID: 28237045


Medical Subspecialty Textbooks in the 21st Century. Essential or Headed for Extinction?

PMID: 26177458


Impact of online learning modules on medical student microbiology examination scores.

PMID: 23653820


Effect of electronic versus print format and different reading resources on knowledge acquisition in the third-year medicine clerkship.

PMID: 16197322



This one might be interesting for you new MS2s:


Impacting student anxiety for the USMLE Step 1 through process-oriented preparation.


PMID: 20198129


For new OMSIIs

The Use of COMLEX-USA and USMLE for Residency Applicant Selection.

PMID: 27413438

I have to wonder. Although I'm a firm believer in the "don't use textbooks - just use UFAP" mentality, have you observed the willpower/methods of your students?

Of the people who failed step 1 in my school's history, a couple spread themselves too thin without just straight up focusing on FA. The majority did UFAP just like the 250+ scorers however there is a HUGE difference between making anki card out of first aid to purely memorize versus studying only first aid and Google open next to you.

Student A sits with First Aid, googles to read into understanding that they think FA may lack --> only checks box for "I used first aid" in surveys

Student B thinks "meh screw googling or looking up for clarification" sits with first aid, maybe even has Facebook/YouTube/SDN open more than google --> only checks box for "i used first aid in surveys.

I ask because for you meeting and knowing your students personally, some bit of you must suspect if students are studying less than they think they are or that you must be assessing student A's detail orientation vs Student B's lack there of.

 

[Goro]

I have to wonder. Although I'm a firm believer in the "don't use textbooks - just use UFAP" mentality, have you observed the willpower/methods of your students?

Of the people who failed step 1 in my school's history, a couple spread themselves too thin without just straight up focusing on FA. The majority did UFAP just like the 250+ scorers however there is a HUGE difference between making anki card out of first aid to purely memorize versus studying only first aid and Google open next to you.

Student A sits with First Aid, googles to read into understanding that they think FA may lack --> only checks box for "I used first aid" in surveys

Student B thinks "meh screw googling or looking up for clarification" sits with first aid, maybe even has Facebook/YouTube/SDN open more than google --> only checks box for "i used first aid in surveys.

I ask because for you meeting and knowing your students personally, some bit of you must suspect if students are studying less than they think they are or that you must be assessing student A's detail orientation vs Student B's lack there of.

An excellent question!
People how have failed Board at our school fall into two camps:

The weak students who are "the usual suspects". They have lots of bad habits that even after two years of med school, they don't lose.
When asked about why they failed, the answers are pretty uniform: not enough study time or effort. I suspect that these kids are burnt out by this time, or never had their heart in medicine in the first place.

So nowadays, we require our weakest students to pull an elective and use that time to study for COMLEX.

The other camp is the surprise failures...ie, the good students who are not on our radar for failure.
These are usually hit by some outside life event right around June. One student was wrapped up with wedding details, for example. Another had a very sick child.

We hear the same thing about students even at Top MD schools. To paraphrase Leo Tolstoy, "All good students are alike; and all weak students are the same"

 

[Jabbed]

@Goro out of curiosity what subject do you teach?

 

[Jabbed]

Yes because everyone everywhere wants nothing more than to be a plastic surgeon in LA. Well reasoned.

I mean if I had to choose between LA plastics and OK family medicine..

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I mean if I had to choose between LA plastics and OK family medicine..

I'd choose the latter every time.

 

[Goro]

@Goro out of curiosity what subject do you teach?

From my post history, you should be able to figure that out.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Jeeze, sliceo, you put me through the wringer to try and mine PubMed for what was a fleeting memory!

Anyway, after going through about ten different search parameters, I found the paper that I was thinking of. Caveat: the paper was actually on COMLEX, not USMLE, and YES, USMLE =/= COMLEX (although they do correlate, see the last citation).

Some of the middle of the pack papers are more oblique to our discussion, but they fit into the theme that both you and I agree on: successful students use a multiplicity of resources for Board prep (and success in med school).

SDNers are still advised that what works for you is all well and good, but it may or may not work for your classmate sitting next to you. From the 5000 foot level, I've seen what lots of weak and good students do. My point is, don't be like the weak students. Capeesh?

Predictors of scoring at least 600 on COMLEX-USA Level 1: successful preparation strategies.

PMID: 23412678

Multiplicity of resources is not mentioned here from what I can see, aside from the statement that more question bank questions done=higher score. Are you referring to the statement that higher pre-clinical grades correlated to higher comlex scores? That is definitely not the same as encouraging a multiplicity of resources. The paper even says "The most frequently used and most helpful examination preparation resources were review books and question banks.:

Investigating the Impact of Preparation Strategies on USMLE Step 1 Performance.

PMID: 27500163

Only specifics mentioned here are question banks having a positive and prep courses having no effect. There are mean and std values listed for a few individual resources however no mention is made as to multiplicity of resources

The impact of a peer-designed and -led USMLE Step 1 review course: improvement in preparation and scores.

PMID: 20881702

Can't get full text but it seems to be simply referring to the efficacy of a school made review course with no mention of multiplicity of resources

A Predictive Model for USMLE Step 1 Scores

PMID: 27738569

This one specifically looks at grades, CBSE scores, financial need and uworld performance. No mention of multiplicity of resources

Student USMLE step 1 preparation and performance.

PMID: 15583484

Only able to find abstract but it states "Performance on Step 1 is related to academic performance in medical school and not the type of preparation methods" which seems to not support what you are saying at all

See bolded in quotes. Don't think any of these sources supports what you are saying at all. Common themes are more questions done=better, good pre-clinical grades is good and prep classes are not helpful. Did not see multiplicity of resources mentioned once in any of these papers, or the use of textbooks for step 1 prep (probably because it is so uncommon)

I did not look at the other papers you posted as they are not directly looking at step 1 which is what we are talking about.

 

[12glaucoma34]

I think I go to a magical medical school, University of Exceptions, because the people who got 250+ just made uworld/FA their life and didn't buy or read a single textbook. Meanwhile there are those goober med students who DID buy and read the textbooks and those people flopped on step 1 due to information overload. Some even got sent to the psych counselor to be tested for disabilities when they couldn't remember every concept they "read to understand" when they could've made their lives easier and just stuck to FA/uworld. I don't know what all this talk is about metformin MOA and the lot, but none of that was on ANY shelf, NBME, or step 1 exam that I took or it WOULD be put in FA. N=Thousands.

Make your lives easier and stick to uworld/FA like the thousands of students before you who did just that to get great step scores.

Yes being a doctor isn't about a good step 1, but you can admit that while you're in your Los Angeles plastic surgery residency instead of Oklahoma family med.

Nothing magical about your school. The most sound advice (yours) is to select one source and learn everything you can from it. My method was using a question bank and understanding every answer choice for every question. The big takeaway is to assess your studying, make sure you are actually understanding and can apply the information.

 

[12glaucoma34]

From my post history, you should be able to figure that out.

Or you could just tell us. Otherwise, you have no problem replying to posts.

 

[Crayola227]

See bolded in quotes. Don't think any of these sources supports what you are saying at all. Common themes are more questions done=better, good pre-clinical grades is good and prep classes are not helpful. Did not see multiplicity of resources mentioned once in any of these papers, or the use of textbooks for step 1 prep (probably because it is so uncommon)

I did not look at the other papers you posted as they are not directly looking at step 1 which is what we are talking about.

Jesus H ****ing Christ, the title of the thread is "success in medical school" which has already been pointed out to be more than just Step 1, and might reasonably include preclinical grades. (sorry sliceofbread, I don't mean to jump on you, just frustrated where people took this thread)

We are only talking about Step 1 because people continue to perseverate on it rather than focusing on strategies to be successful overall in med school.

No one here is sitting here acting like reading course textbooks cover-to-cover is going to be the optimal Step 1 strategy.

He originally said, "If textbooks are required, buy them.

Board review books are exactly that; do NOT use them in place of a required text. We’ve found that our weakest students always try to make do with just review books. Avoid the mindset of of “if it’s not in FA, it’s not important”. This is just wrong."

Keep in mind the verbiage is "If textbooks are required, buy them." That could be taken as, "Buy all required textbooks." Or, "If a textbook is required and would be helpful for a class, buy it." Read advice either the way it's intended or the way it is the most helpful even if that's not even what the author meant.

I can absolutely guarantee you that at least half the preclinical courses at my school I would have failed had I foregone the books that previous students and faculty said were essential and relied mostly on FA or Pathoma or other review books. I suspect that I also wouldn't have had the sort of knowledge base background to get the most out of FA review for Step 1 prep.

He is right on point that the above attitude about "if it's not in FA it's not important" will bite you in the ass not only for preclinical grades but for Step 1 as well. That still doesn't mean that you need to buy all the required textbooks, but that attitude about course material is definitely going to hurt your "success in medical school."

If you fail your preclinicals, guess what? Most schools won't let you sit for Step 1, or you won't graduate regardless.

Seriously, for most schools, there will be a few classes where a few of the required books really are that. Figure that out. I had friends that took the attitude that the required books were mostly a joke and for each of them there was a class they ended up doing poorly in because they didn't think to ask what books were essential and take that seriously.

Some courses will be built around the required text, and just will not be amenable to Step 1 review material only type study.

@VA Hopeful Dr gave the best advice about asking other students what required books are essential.
@Goro 's advice that just review books =/= medical school success, is true.

 

[Crayola227]

As far as Step 1 review, I basically only used FA & UWorld, and I got a respectable score.

However, I did use a touch of some other essential review book I'm too lazy to remember the name, and USMLERx vids and qbank. Some Kaplan too.

I consulted Dubin for EKGs a few times, Pathophys of Heart Dz (required course texts, gasp!), Lange's Biochem Review book.

So technically I used a multiplicity of resources beyond FA & UWorld, and a few were required course texts. N=1 to add to those stats.

 

[.hematoma.]

Jesus H ****ing Christ, the title of the thread is "success in medical school" which has already been pointed out to be more than just Step 1, and might reasonably include preclinical grades. (sorry sliceofbread, I don't mean to jump on you, just frustrated where people took this thread)

We are only talking about Step 1 because people continue to perseverate on it rather than focusing on strategies to be successful overall in med school.

Check out the NRMP program director data and think about why we talk so much about step 1 as opposed to preclinical grades.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Check out the NRMP program director data and think about why we talk so much about step 1 as opposed to preclinical grades.

We're well aware of why y'all focus so much on Step 1.

But again, the title of the thread is "Success in med school" not "Success at kicking Step 1's ass".

 

[Crayola227]

Check out the NRMP program director data and think about why we talk so much about step 1 as opposed to preclinical grades.

Been there, done that. Success in medical school is more than Step 1, more than preclinical grades, and the use of a few textbooks might even persist past graduation.

If Step 1 and the reliance on certain materials is such a complex/simple issue that doesn't bear mentioning textbooks, than in my view it would make sense to focus on other aspects of medical school success.

Myopic views abound.

 

[Goro]

Been there, done that. Success in medical school is more than Step 1, more than preclinical grades, and the use of a few textbooks might even persist past graduation.

If Step 1 and the reliance on certain materials is such a complex/simple issue that doesn't bear mentioning textbooks, than in my view it would make sense to focus on other aspects of medical school success.

Myopic views abound.

Indeed. Lots of naval gazing going on here. My suggestions normally don't trigger such reactions, so I'm perplexed. Still, I enjoy helping medical students success, and will continue to try and help.
As an aside, my students love UWorld, Lippincott's Biochemistry, Netter's Anatomy, either Robbin's Pathology ( I prefer the smaller), Med Micro Made Ridiculously Simple, and Harrison's. And the Sketchy's. Don't forget the Sketchy's. I still cant figure out how they remember anything from those images!

 

[.hematoma.]

If Step 1 and the reliance on certain materials is such a complex/simple issue that doesn't bear mentioning textbooks, than in my view it would make sense to focus on other aspects of medical school success.

Myopic views abound.

In that dangerous view, you'd be hard pressed to match at a competitive specialty if you didn't focus on the highest yield resources for step 1 (again, with the highly occasional textbook page glance). I don't think anyone here is arguing that textbooks aren't useful in general, but for the things that program directors consider "medical school success", ie step 1 above most other things, textbooks are low yield.

From my post history, you should be able to figure that out.

Or you could just tell us. Otherwise, you have no problem replying to posts.

Some people like feeling important on forums.

 

[cellsaver]

I consulted Dubin for EKGs a few times, Pathophys of Heart Dz (required course texts, gasp!).

Dubin is a disgusting human being. I picked up his book at the medical school library but I could not bring myself to use it given how vile he was preying on innocent children and female patients. Instead I used Lilly's Pathophysiology of Heart Disease and supplemented it with Braunwald's (awesome videos!) from the library as well.

It's amazing what you can find in the university library and milk your tuition fees to your advantage for a change. If you are not investigating these resources at your school you are hurting yourself. Downloading PDF books is illegal and dangerous - exposing your computer to malware.

Many course medical textbooks are on the shelves at medical school libraries and if they are not there, use Interloan Library services. library staff are more than happy to get it for you. Many of the library books are in excellent condition, untouched and some of them have the sticker on the inside cover unscratched which provides the ebook / inkling version. My library staff gave me permission to scratch off the sticker for the code which was a huge cost savings. so I stocked up for both medical school and Residency.

Inkling has both medical "student consult" ebooks and medical "expert consult" professional ebooks: Mandell's Infectious Diseases, Nelson's Pediatrics, Braunwalds, Goldman-Cecil and Weinberger Pulmonary Medicine.

Check it out

If you have free time during rotations while at the hospital you can pull up an Inkling book on your iPad and study between meetings. Faculty also notice these things.

Visit your med school library and see what's on the shelf - your tuition has paid for it.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Dubin is a disgusting human being. I picked up his book at the medical school library but I could not bring myself to use it given how vile he was preying on innocent children and female patients. Instead I used Lilly's Pathophysiology of Heart Disease and supplemented it with Braunwald's (awesome videos!) from the library as well.
.

That's certainly your call to make, but just because he was a terrible person doesn't mean his ECG book isn't the best out there.

Do keep in mind where much of our knowledge of anatomy comes from if you're going to take this approach to learning...

 

[Stagg737]

As far as Step 1 review, I basically only used FA & UWorld, and I got a respectable score.

However, I did use a touch of some other essential review book I'm too lazy to remember the name, and USMLERx vids and qbank. Some Kaplan too.

I consulted Dubin for EKGs a few times, Pathophys of Heart Dz (required course texts, gasp!), Lange's Biochem Review book.

So technically I used a multiplicity of resources beyond FA & UWorld, and a few were required course texts. N=1 to add to those stats.

There's a big difference between buying textbooks and using them as a primary study source and using them as a reference source to fill in gaps from primary sources. Using textbooks as reference is fine and I don't know any med students who don't do this to some extent. Using them as you main source is totally different and is a horrible method for some students (like myself).

 

[sliceofbread136]

Indeed. Lots of naval gazing going on here. My suggestions normally don't trigger such reactions, so I'm perplexed. Still, I enjoy helping medical students success, and will continue to try and help.
As an aside, my students love UWorld, Lippincott's Biochemistry, Netter's Anatomy, either Robbin's Pathology ( I prefer the smaller), Med Micro Made Ridiculously Simple, and Harrison's. And the Sketchy's. Don't forget the Sketchy's. I still cant figure out how they remember anything from those images!

Why do you refuse to just your advice and then throw your hands up in the air and say "I can't understand why people are reacting this way". If you don't want to have a discussion then maybe you should not be posting on an online forum and pick up blogging instead

 

[Goro]

Why do you refuse to just your advice and then throw your hands up in the air and say "I can't understand why people are reacting this way". If you don't want to have a discussion then maybe you should not be posting on an online forum and pick up blogging instead

Because it's:
A) only several people pissing and moaning
B) it's counter to what I have observed in my own students, in terms of what makes a successful or unsuccessful medical student. I see too much argument by anecdote, too much "this worked for me, therefore it's universal", and even worse, far too much emotion.

So I have to state again: medical education does not begin and end with Step I or Level I.

As another aside, the best predictor for success on Boards in pre-clinical GPA. Do I have to cite those too?

 

[Crayola227]

Dubin is a disgusting human being. I picked up his book at the medical school library but I could not bring myself to use it given how vile he was preying on innocent children and female patients. Instead I used Lilly's Pathophysiology of Heart Disease and supplemented it with Braunwald's (awesome videos!) from the library as well.

It's amazing what you can find in the university library and milk your tuition fees to your advantage for a change. If you are not investigating these resources at your school you are hurting yourself. Downloading PDF books is illegal and dangerous - exposing your computer to malware.

Many course medical textbooks are on the shelves at medical school libraries and if they are not there, use Interloan Library services. library staff are more than happy to get it for you. Many of the library books are in excellent condition, untouched and some of them have the sticker on the inside cover unscratched which provides the ebook / inkling version. My library staff gave me permission to scratch off the sticker for the code which was a huge cost savings. so I stocked up for both medical school and Residency.

Inkling has both medical "student consult" ebooks and medical "expert consult" professional ebooks: Mandell's Infectious Diseases, Nelson's Pediatrics, Braunwalds, Goldman-Cecil and Weinberger Pulmonary Medicine.

Check it out

If you have free time during rotations while at the hospital you can pull up an Inkling book on your iPad and study between meetings. Faculty also notice these things.

Visit your med school library and see what's on the shelf - your tuition has paid for it.

I used many you quoted. @Stagg737, I even read some 90% cover to cover.

Sadly, my med school had Dubin as a required text and I already purchased it before I found out anything about him. I didn't think to run a background check on books written by physicians and required by my school before purchasing, silly me. 😛

A few books I avoided having to buy by using the library - some were perpetually signed out though.

 

[cellsaver]

A few books I avoided having to buy by using the library - some were perpetually signed out though.

The horror. They read <gasp> books back then!
Those were some bright, motivated, dedicated students.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Because it's:
A) only several people pissing and moaning
B) it's counter to what I have observed in my own students, in terms of what makes a successful or unsuccessful medical student. I see too much argument by anecdote, too much "this worked for me, therefore it's universal", and even worse, far too much emotion.

So I have to state again: medical education does not begin and end with Step I or Level I.

As another aside, the best predictor for success on Boards in pre-clinical GPA. Do I have to cite those too?

So your argument by anecdote is better than others why? The papers you posted (that you quite obviously didn't read) don't agree with your multiplicity of resources stance. The one with the most emotion here seems to be you as your response is consistently "you must be trolling I am going to ignore you" and refuse to actually discuss anything.

As far as preclinical GPA being a predictor for success, you already cited those (not that you would know since you did not read them). I am not arguing the importance of doing well in your course work which I thought was fairly clear but apparently is not

 

[sliceofbread136]

Jesus H ****ing Christ, the title of the thread is "success in medical school" which has already been pointed out to be more than just Step 1, and might reasonably include preclinical grades. (sorry sliceofbread, I don't mean to jump on you, just frustrated where people took this thread)

We are only talking about Step 1 because people continue to perseverate on it rather than focusing on strategies to be successful overall in med school.

No one here is sitting here acting like reading course textbooks cover-to-cover is going to be the optimal Step 1 strategy.

He originally said, "If textbooks are required, buy them.

Board review books are exactly that; do NOT use them in place of a required text. We’ve found that our weakest students always try to make do with just review books. Avoid the mindset of of “if it’s not in FA, it’s not important”. This is just wrong."

Keep in mind the verbiage is "If textbooks are required, buy them." That could be taken as, "Buy all required textbooks." Or, "If a textbook is required and would be helpful for a class, buy it." Read advice either the way it's intended or the way it is the most helpful even if that's not even what the author meant.

I can absolutely guarantee you that at least half the preclinical courses at my school I would have failed had I foregone the books that previous students and faculty said were essential and relied mostly on FA or Pathoma or other review books. I suspect that I also wouldn't have had the sort of knowledge base background to get the most out of FA review for Step 1 prep.

He is right on point that the above attitude about "if it's not in FA it's not important" will bite you in the ass not only for preclinical grades but for Step 1 as well. That still doesn't mean that you need to buy all the required textbooks, but that attitude about course material is definitely going to hurt your "success in medical school."

If you fail your preclinicals, guess what? Most schools won't let you sit for Step 1, or you won't graduate regardless.

Seriously, for most schools, there will be a few classes where a few of the required books really are that. Figure that out. I had friends that took the attitude that the required books were mostly a joke and for each of them there was a class they ended up doing poorly in because they didn't think to ask what books were essential and take that seriously.

Some courses will be built around the required text, and just will not be amenable to Step 1 review material only type study.

@VA Hopeful Dr gave the best advice about asking other students what required books are essential.
@Goro 's advice that just review books =/= medical school success, is true.

Thank you for actually being amenable to discussing something (unlike others in this thread). The goal of preclinicals is to do well in your classes and to do well on step 1. The best way in my opinion to do well in preclinicals is to focus on the material the professor is actually teaching (so lecture powerpoints and the syllabus). This sets you up for a good base when you get to your dedicated. If you would have failed your pre-clinicals without using then textbooks I would say you are the exception not the rule based on the majority of medical student opinions I have seen. As far as step 1 goes, yes you may get questions not in FA but there are very few that are not in UFAP which is a very comprehensive coverage. If you master all of the material in UFAP you are easily in 250+ territory.

If we extend this conversation to clinical knowledge then I do actually endorse using textbooks. I frequently use nelsons, nelsons essentials, pocket peds, diagnostic and therapeutic strategies etc. This is a very different type of learning though.

 

[Goro]

So your argument by anecdote is better than others why? The papers you posted (that you quite obviously didn't read) don't agree with your multiplicity of resources stance. The one with the most emotion here seems to be you as your response is consistently "you must be trolling I am going to ignore you" and refuse to actually discuss anything.

As far as preclinical GPA being a predictor for success, you already cited those (not that you would know since you did not read them). I am not arguing the importance of doing well in your course work which I thought was fairly clear but apparently is not

N of >1500 students for ~20 years. How many have you taught, and for how long?

 

[sliceofbread136]

N of >1500 students for ~20 years. How many have you taught, and for how long?

Your vague observations aren't data, it is an aggregate anecdote. Feel free to actually record data and present it to me then maybe this will be a different story

If we are going down the appeal to authority route then I'm going to have to bring up the fact that you are not an MD, have not completed medical, taken step 1 or have any clinical experience. I have done all of the above and am a high step 1 scorer, so honestly I would argue I am more of an authority than you with zero personal experience.

 

[Goro]

Ok, you win.

Your vague observations aren't data, it is an aggregate anecdote. Feel free to actually record data and present it to me then maybe this will be a different story

If we are going down the appeal to authority route then I'm going to have to bring up the fact that you are not an MD, have not completed medical, taken step 1 or have any clinical experience. I have done all of the above and am a high step 1 scorer, so honestly I would argue I am more of an authority than you with zero personal experience.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Ok, you win.

Like I said I think you would be better suited to blogging than this. Or atleast stay in the premed section where the "im an instructor" card will actually work

 

[Crayola227]

lol, why does the "I'm an instructor card" not work with med students? I didn't know it was such a lofty position.

It's never too late to have the humility humiliated into you, being a med student or even an MD isn't that high on the totem pole.

Also, it's clear to most clinicians that it's the PhDs that are the really the smart ones

 

[VisionaryTics]

lol, why does the "I'm an instructor card" not work with med students? I didn't know it was such a lofty position.

Because we interacted with a ton of clueless administrators and PhDs in med school, and realize that a good proportion of them (not necessarily Goro) don't know **** about producing good physicians.

Also, it's clear to most clinicians that it's the PhDs that are the really the smart ones

Being able to run a research lab and get grants funded does not correlate with ability to train physicians.

 

[mehc012]

I have all required textbooks and then a lot of extra, additional, ones. Of course, this is because I interpreted the 'buy' part of Goro's advice loosely, but the point still stands. It is SO nice to be able to read an actual chapter and get actual context on a subject when it's being covered. Usually I will read the relevant textbook chapter on whatever topic we're discussing that week (usually the textbook info covers multiple topics from the week, so that's helpful) and then use primary literature search to fill in the rest of the details. During discussion, there are at least 2 or 3 different texts used as the main source for various people in our small groups, which means that we basically end up deciding which text is best for that topic and consolidating any differing information between them, which makes discussion actually interesting. The things I've learned this way, I've been able to guess Qbank questions on even if I hadn't run into that factoid yet or memorized it fully.

The absolute WORST groups are the ones where someone studies only FA and ruins everything. These people use FA as a bible and basically dismiss all discussion that goes beyond what's in there. This ruins the learning experience for everyone else, and is incredibly boring (and in my mind, shortsighted). These people do well on the questions that they have explicitly covered and memorized, but not other ones.

Given the choice, give me the former, with all of the textbooks. Fortunately, I don't have to choose. I can use textbooks to learn and review books for when it comes time to review (shocking, right?)

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Because we interacted with a ton of clueless administrators and PhDs in med school, and realize that a good proportion of them (not necessarily Goro) don't know **** about producing good physicians.



Being able to run a research lab and get grants funded does not correlate with ability to train physicians.

All true, but given his genuine-appearing interest in medical education I suspect Goro is not like those.

My experience was that you had your PhDs who honestly cared about medical education. They were the ones who would go through Step 1 review books and make sure to point out high-yield topics and wouldn't spend extra time on minutia just because they did research in that area. That sounds like what Goro is like as opposed to the PhDs who kinda resent having to teach students because it takes away from their research time.

 

[Datypicalpremed]

I've found, at least for my institution, that it's a bit of a hopeless situation. You have educators - MDs and PhDs alike - who geniuinely care about medical education get disheartened by students who rely solely on UFAP and whatnot. These students don't attend/watch lectures, they don't read texts that the educators recommend, they don't attend learning opportunities that the educators put their hearts into organizing, etc. Tbh, I can understand why they might do this. So much value is placed on your numbers and it's easy to take the path of least resistance when you are stressed out medical student in your preclinical years desperate to get that 230+ (or 260+ if you hang out on sdn long enough ). Even if that means being less prepared for the clinical years and beyond.

The end result is that these "good" educators give up and get replaced by educators who are only teaching for the sake of moving up the faculty ladder. They give half@ssed lectures and advice that frustrate the remaining students, who then become UFAPers themselves. And the cycle repeats.

I'm still way early in my education. Heck, I admit I UFAPed myself. But even I can see this is not gonna end well...

 

[cellsaver]

Ok, you win.

This is where you taught me something (among many other valuable things): the ignore button. I only discovered it recently thanks to you.

Maybe these people are not really USA LCME attending medical students. Maybe they are people who have nothing but time on their hands and live for the Dopamine hit that internet forums provide. They lob insults and show contempt towards professionals like you who have a vocation to teach aspiring physicians. Maybe there are many more driven, insightful, dedicated, inspiring, mature medical students than what the forums show.

Maybe the Russians <snark on> have been running these forums to undermine our great country?

Either way, Dr Goro, you are an inspiration. I thank you whole heartedly for all that you do for us MD / DO nontrad students. We are indebted to you.

sign
- an N > 1

 

[Goro]

This is where you taught me something (among many other valuable things): the ignore button. I only discovered it recently thanks to you.

Maybe these people are not really USA LCME attending medical students. Maybe they are people who have nothing but time on their hands and live for the Dopamine hit that internet forums provide. They lob insults and show contempt towards professionals like you who have a vocation to teach aspiring physicians. Maybe there are many more driven, insightful, dedicated, inspiring, mature medical students than what the forums show.

Maybe the Russians <snark on> have been running these forums to undermine our great country?

Either way, Dr Goro, you are an inspiration. I thank you whole heartedly for all that you do for us MD / DO nontrad students. We are indebted to you.

sign
- an N > 1

👍😍

 

[sliceofbread136]

lol, why does the "I'm an instructor card" not work with med students? I didn't know it was such a lofty position.

It's never too late to have the humility humiliated into you, being a med student or even an MD isn't that high on the totem pole.

Also, it's clear to most clinicians that it's the PhDs that are the really the smart ones

You should never trust someone just because they are an aithority figure. If someone won't support what they and default to "because I say so" then I tend to put a lot less stock in it. Especially in a clinical environment

 

[cellsaver]

The absolute WORST groups are the ones where someone studies only FA and ruins everything. These people use FA as a bible and basically dismiss all discussion that goes beyond what's in there. This ruins the learning experience for everyone else, and is incredibly boring (and in my mind, shortsighted).

There are 200+ students per class year at my state university so it makes rotations quite interesting when you dont really know each other. Its a factory: get em in, get em out. Those who did well on Step 1 are either admired or hated by the other students. Guess who hates them?

When it comes to rotations you can feel the tension in some groups - quite a few students just want to get it over with and get out of dodge while the more thoughtful aspiring physicians want to get the most of each opportunity. The former roll their eyes at the latter as they gather for the day while the latter can't wait to rid themselves of the former. Such a lovely dynamic eh?

UFAP - Unlawful Flight to Avoid Prosecution

Cue the comments with 270+ scores by osmosis and sleeping through lectures

lol

 

[mehc012]

There are 200+ students per class year at my state university so it makes rotations quite interesting when you dont really know each other. Its a factory: get em in, get em out. Those who did well on Step 1 are either admired or hated by the other students. Guess who hates them?

When it comes to rotations you can feel the tension in some groups - quite a few students just want to get it over with and get out of dodge while the more thoughtful aspiring physicians want to get the most of each opportunity. The former roll their eyes at the latter as they gather for the day while the latter can't wait to rid themselves of the former. Such a lovely dynamic eh?

UFAP - Unlawful Flight to Avoid Prosecution

Cue the comments with 270+ scores by osmosis and sleeping through lectures

lol

We have almost 200 ourselves, yet I've run into only a handful of FA evangelicals, thankfully. I think our curriculum really lends itself to textbooks, which is nice. If you straight memorize, you won't do well here.

 

[12glaucoma34]

So your argument by anecdote is better than others why? The papers you posted (that you quite obviously didn't read) don't agree with your multiplicity of resources stance. The one with the most emotion here seems to be you as your response is consistently "you must be trolling I am going to ignore you" and refuse to actually discuss anything.

As far as preclinical GPA being a predictor for success, you already cited those (not that you would know since you did not read them). I am not arguing the importance of doing well in your course work which I thought was fairly clear but apparently is not

Money. This has actually been entertaining. Goro is used to being an authority figure on SDN and it seems when someone disagrees with him he cannot tolerate it. Resorting to "you must be trolling I am going to ignore you" is his standard response. As another user pointed out, he is not a physician and as far as we know, was never accepted into medical school so he can only give advice based on what others have told him. As my grandfather used to say, "be cautious of those who can tell, but can't do or haven't done." Would you prefer a pilot to fly the plane or the faculty in charge of making repairs at the airport? At times he appears to be helpful and others he is exceedingly arrogant.

 

[cellsaver]

We have almost 200 ourselves, yet I've run into only a handful of FA evangelicals, thankfully. I think our curriculum really lends itself to textbooks, thankfully. If you straight memorize, you won't do well here.

One thing that is not discussed are the different educational / pedagogical paradigms that exist in America today as compared to several years ago. I think these new methods have hurt America greatly. European and Latin America pedadogical methods are vastly different than America's current mish mash (e.g. UFAP). Travel to Europe or Latin America and you get a different sense of maturity with university students.