Got a talented 3rd year med student interested in rad onc?

[Kate_Hitchcock]

Here in the heart of the Gator Nation we want to increase representation and participation of underrepresented students in radiation oncology.

We're looking for 4th year medical students to spend 4 weeks with us this summer. We will provide furnished accommodations, transportation, and a $3,200 stipend.

Please see attached flyer for details.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[deleted1111261]

$3200 for a month is actually legit.

 

[Gfunk6]

Well, this rotation is really meant for underrepresented minorities and to give them a positive exposure to Rad Onc. However, this still being Florida and all, if you are "too" underrepresented then perhaps it would be safer to look elsewhere.

 

[FindMeOnTheLinks]

Well, this rotation is really meant for underrepresented minorities and to give them a positive exposure to Rad Onc. However, this still being Florida and all, if you are "too" underrepresented then perhaps it would be safer to look elsewhere.

Those in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones 😉

 

[Reaganite]

#750orGTFO

 

[thesauce]

Rad Onc as a field is in major trouble. Enticing students to go into it until/unless it gets fixed is just wrong.

 

[Ray D. Ayshun]

Well, this rotation is really meant for underrepresented minorities and to give them a positive exposure to Rad Onc. However, this still being Florida and all, if you are "too" underrepresented then perhaps it would be safer to look elsewhere.

Right, there are more adjectives that need to be inserted between talented and med.

 

[OTN]

Rad Onc as a field is in major trouble. Enticing students to go into it until/unless it gets fixed is just wrong.

I disagree that the field itself is in trouble. If we still had the same # of residents we did in the early 2000s things would be fine.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

These days everyone is “talented” and a “rockstar” so meaningless terms. I would be unlikely to advise the majority of applicants to enter the field with its current inability to contract numbers, hellpits SOAPing left and right, nothing to see here per “leaders”

 

[Mandelin Rain]

Here in the heart of the Gator Nation we want to increase representation and participation of underrepresented students in radiation oncology.

We're looking for 4th year medical students to spend 4 weeks with us this summer. We will provide furnished accommodations, transportation, and a $3,200 stipend.

Please see attached flyer for details.

If I were a resident in the UF rad onc department, I'd be SUPER pissed that a medical student was making as much (total comp) as me.

 

[deleted1111261]

If I were a resident in the UF rad onc department, I'd be SUPER pissed that a medical student was making as much (total comp) as me.

We always say we should be more like other industries. In tech and finance, the summer intern salary is pro-rated for 3 months at the same level as entry level analyst or equivalent positing.

3200 x 12 = 38k

The pgy1 salary is almost 60k

We have this peculiar quirk of wanting something and then when getting it, complaining.

A lot of these programs pay $3k for the summer. This is 3200 for 4 weeks for a Med student. That’s really fair. I did a summer internship after M1 in public policy in Manhattan and got $5k (in 2002). It was really great.

The programs are self - interested and will do as they should. Med students have access to information and they are fleeing. The market is slowly working. Would be better if programs contracted, but there is no stomach for it.

Be happy that students are getting paid. This should be the norm.

 

[Fpg1245]

Be happy that students are getting paid. This should be the norm.

Is this the norm for people that go into desirable specialties?

 

[OTN]

Is this the norm for people that go into desirable specialties?

When I was in training I got a research stipend to do some ENT stuff. Not as much money, sure, but the federal money printer hadn't yet begun to spin.

 

[deleted1111261]

Is this the norm for people that go into desirable specialties?

Should be. I don’t get upset when individuals make more money from institutions. People have been taking advantage of medical students and residents forever.

 

[Fpg1245]

Should be. I don’t get upset when individuals make more money from institutions. People have been taking advantage of medical students and residents forever.

Absolutely. Young powerless and eager to please. I remember those days well.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

We always say we should be more like other industries. In tech and finance, the summer intern salary is pro-rated for 3 months at the same level as entry level analyst or equivalent positing.

3200 x 12 = 38k

The pgy1 salary is almost 60k

What's a month's rent? What's a flight from another medical school and local transportation?

Cause, I've yet to see that provided for a resident for free.


My main point was to how underpaid residents are vs the med student getting 5k of compensation for the month.

 

[deleted1111261]

What's a month's rent? What's a flight from another medical school and local transportation?

Cause, I've yet to see that provided for a resident for free.


My main point was to how underpaid residents are vs the med student getting 5k of compensation for the month.

Well, it's $3200, it's less than what the resident makes, it does not include benefits or vacation time and there is no track for employment. I don't think the point of the stipend is to make you whole for the entire costs. But, then we are talking even more money if you include flights and rent and local transport, and it sounds like you already think it is too much? I am confused!

What's fair for a resident? I have no idea. My old brain still thinks resident's are trainees and turning them into employees leads you down a horrendous path. See: RO residents working as ICU doctors during COVID. And not saying that could have been prevented by keeping them as trainees, but it the justification is somewhat stronger.

I know I'm in a minority when I say this b/c people in medicine tend to come from money, but that $46k in Pittsburgh in 2005 ... hoo boy, I felt rich!

 

[Mandelin Rain]

I just said 3200 + rent for a month + Transport to and from (all as indicated by the OP) would be about as much salary as a resident makes in a month.

I also said, If I were a resident, that would piss me off.

You've divined the rest of your projections. Including the spurious maths.

My overall point was, pay residents more. Rent is astronomical. Inflation has run away. Good luck buying a car. Many residents are on food stamps. Etc.... Nothing is more "okay boomer" than "I was rich in 2005 with 46k salary" and telling the dude in 2023 with a 55k salary how good he has it. Hospitals barely view residents as trainees. And that's the good ones. They are cheap labor that keep the wheels in motion and then serve as a font of their entry level hiring pool on the back end. Again, it's 2023, not 2005. MedEd and medicine overall, have change. A bit.

 

[Ray D. Ayshun]

$3200 is both too much and too little. If that amount of money factors into your decision then you're an idiot. But you're also an idiot if you uproot yourself for a month to get into this field. Particularly to go to Gainesville in the summer.

 

[deleted1111261]

Fair enough it’s too much and too little.

I like when students get a stipend for this, especially when it’s a decent amount.

I can’t fathom being worked up about a student coming to my department on a stipend if I was a PGY5.

I’d be more upset that I’m about to start a job in Rhinelander or Port Huron… oh wait …

(though, I push back - I didn’t say anything remotely about saying how good anyone has it; that’s putting words in my mouth. I said I felt rich on a resident’s salary)

 

[Ray D. Ayshun]

Fair enough it’s too much and too little.

I like when students get a stipend for this, especially when it’s a decent amount.

I can’t fathom being worked up about a student coming to my department on a stipend if I was a PGY5.

I’d be more upset that I’m about to start a job in Rhinelander or Port Huron… oh wait …

I guess what I mean is it's nice. If a student really specifically wanted to do an away a UF, this is great. But my eyes wouldn't get big at this. Maybe it would make me choose UF over some other place, but it wouldn't convince me to not sit around and watch It's always sunny and eat THC if that was my original plan, even if I was using non-subsidized loans to buy the gummies.

 

[RickyScott]

Here in the heart of the Gator Nation we want to increase representation and participation of underrepresented students in radiation oncology.

We're looking for 4th year medical students to spend 4 weeks with us this summer. We will provide furnished accommodations, transportation, and a $3,200 stipend.

Please see attached flyer for details.

Lets Hope they neve end up needing an abortion?

 

[deleted1111261]

I guess what I mean is it's nice. If a student really specifically wanted to do an away a UF, this is great. But my eyes wouldn't get big at this. Maybe it would make me choose UF over some other place, but it wouldn't convince me to not sit around and watch It's always sunny and eat THC if that was my original plan, even if I was using non-subsidized loans to buy the gummies.

I thought they provided a ration ?

 

[sirspamalot]

Absolutely. Young powerless and eager to please. I remember those days well.

So much opportunity to roll a joke here, doing my best to not take the bait.

 

[Fpg1245]

So much opportunity to roll a joke here, doing my best to not take the bait.

Please do even if it's at my expense. My life and career are a joke. Dont hold back.

 

[sirspamalot]

Behold the power of the #.

"young powerless and eager to please" remind me of my fraternity days.. sigh. I'm just an old married dude now.

 

[thesauce]

I disagree that the field itself is in trouble. If we still had the same # of residents we did in the early 2000s things would be fine.

But we don’t….which is why it’s in trouble

 

[wandering star]

$3200 is both too much and too little. If that amount of money factors into your decision then you're an idiot.

No comment on the other issues raised in this thread, but people (rightly IMO) say that money is a barrier in attracting underrepresented groups. The stereotypical example is a talented high school student who skips college to stock shelves or whatever to make ends meet. We all probably know successful MDs who had to work at Walmart in the past to keep things afloat.

To the extent that you can alleviate some of these pressures by paying at the high end of the spectrum for a 4 week rotation, I think we as a society should do it. Would be a shame if your target audience skips out because they see another opportunity that pays a little more and they grew up in a culture of scarcity.

 

[thesauce]

No comment on the other issues raised in this thread, but people (rightly IMO) say that money is a barrier in attracting underrepresented groups. The stereotypical example is a talented high school student who skips college to stock shelves or whatever to make ends meet. We all probably know successful MDs who had to work at Walmart in the past to keep things afloat.

To the extent that you can alleviate some of these pressures by paying at the high end of the spectrum for a 4 week rotation, I think we as a society should do it. Would be a shame if your target audience skips out because they see another opportunity that pays a little more and they grew up in a culture of scarcity.

Do you see a lot of third-year med students working at Walmart to help make ends meet?

It’s fine to pay them more, but the much MUCH bigger issue is trying to attract them into this field.

 

[medgator]

It’s fine to pay them more, but the much MUCH bigger issue is trying to attract them into this field.

The timing is just so bad for all these outreach initiatives, even if UF is run by the good guys and isn't expanding and trying to soap bottom of the barrel candidates

 

[Fpg1245]

The timing is just so bad for all these outreach initiatives, even if UF is run by the good guys and isn't expanding and trying to soap bottom of the barrel candidates

The higher ups seem to be completely unaware of timing and optics.

 

[deleted1111261]

If I can’t find employees for my local Taco Bell, I offer hiring bonus and tuition payment.

When the field is super hot, why would they offer money for a rotation?

 

[Fpg1245]

If I can’t find employees for my local Taco Bell, I offer hiring bonus and tuition payment.

When the field is super hot, why would they offer money for a rotation?

This is exactly why the whole thing sounds shady. In competitive fields, you go to them and hope they notice you not that other way around. RO has little to offer these days except frustration and instability.

When they could dangle a nice PP with partnership in front of these students and residents, then they would put up the with abuse, toxic personalities, and downright hazing that occurs. But since they can’t even consistently offer steady employment, they throw them a bone. The sad fact is it will work.

 

[sirspamalot]

Don't forget pathetic pay or working in locations you could never have imagined... and your wife will hate.

"Learn this one trick all radiation oncologists should know.."

 

[thesauce]

If I can’t find employees for my local Taco Bell, I offer hiring bonus and tuition payment.

When the field is super hot, why would they offer money for a rotation?

Financially it makes perfect sense - just like unnecessarily expanding programs. It’s just immoral and exploitative.

 

[deleted1111261]

It is immoral and exploitative to allow a medical student to do an elective rotation and then provide the funding for it. This needs some explanation...

 

[sirspamalot]

Its just money, power and humans. Age old stuff. With a nice veneer of medical professional thrown on to make the pig look better.

 

[Fpg1245]

Its just money, power and humans. Age old stuff. With a nice veneer of medical professional thrown on to make the pig look better.

Really wish I had this level of clarity 15 years ago

 

[deleted1111261]

Students have access to information. I don't think most MS3s and MS4s are imbeciles and can't think for themselves. If they choose radonc - "you're just listening to academic idiots". If they don't choose it - "you're just listening to SDN". No. That's not it. We are just not that important or influential. The way people talk here - it mimics the idea that "SDN tanked the match". No, it didn't. But, no it is not immoral to be enthusiastic about wanting to do this specialty. It just has a lot of problems and there is awareness. Students I come across are pretty sharp.

People can read, talk to others, rotate through, listen to podcasts, call people in the field. They get facts and the make decisions. No neurosurgery applicant truly understands what it means to be a neurosurgeon MS3. But, that doesn't mean they are stupid to do a job that I'd never even consider. I'd leave medicine before I do that ****.

This idea that if you choose radonc: "you are making a big mistake" is so self-serving. We can't be in someone's head / brainspace. What works or doesn't work for you may work for them. The vast majority of new grads are going to be employed at hospitals, making 450-550 a year with 6 weeks off and good hours treating 10-15 patients. This is not amazing. This is not terrible. It is unlikely to be in your first choice city, but you could get lucky. I did a few times. For a person that grew up like me, the above is very good. I live a wonderful life and enjoy my job and am surrounded by wonderful staff. My C suite is phenomenal. I have many opportunities outside of the clinic. None of this was given to me. I networked my way to success and I'm a nice enough guy so things worked out.

If you want autonomy, if you want to be certain what city you live in, if you don't want to be dependent on other physicians, if you want to avoid the f*cked up mindset that community docs are *****s, if you want shift work, if you want more time off and not feel bad about it, if you want ability to earn more and this just depends on how hard you work, if you want to work from home, if you don't want to work for a hospital - these are simply not attributes of our field. If many of the above are important to you - you gotta go somewhere else.

But, I'm finding myself having a hard time thinking "no one should do this field". I literally chatted with someone about a job in a nice Chicago suburb and the starting was 550-600, pre bonus. Chicago is on my wife's "no play list" so obviously not considering and 4 jobs in 5 years may be a bit much, but that is a city that people like and a good salary for a good community job.

 

[sirspamalot]

To complete for that job, you need to have good paper / senior skillz, I would expect.

But that job for the practice in the middle of nowhere? You and 15 other new grads will be fighting for it while pondering divorce...

 

[thesauce]

It is immoral and exploitative to allow a medical student to do an elective rotation and then provide the funding for it. This needs some explanation...

This isn’t a rotation. This is a solicitation to attract students into the specialty with the goal of them applying for radonc residency. This is not what we or they need and UF knows that.

 

[medgator]

This is exactly why the whole thing sounds shady. In competitive fields, you go to them and hope they notice you not that other way around.

This was basically rad onc after the the turn of the century with the advent of IMRT until the end of the last decade.

Now it's basically places throwing everything they can think of against the wall and seeing what sticks... How many paid med student opportunities have we seen from places now that either didn't exist or were never advertised a decade ago? UCLA, UF, Emory etc?

 

[Fpg1245]

This was basically rad onc after the the turn of the century with the advent of IMRT until the end of the last decade.

Now it's basically places throwing everything they can think of against the wall and seeing what sticks... How many paid med student opportunities have we seen from places now that either didn't exist or were never advertised a decade ago? UCLA, UF, Emory etc?

If I asked my away rotations for a stipend, I would have been told to **** off.

 

[deleted1111261]

So, these places have to recruit and them offering their own private money to do so is immoral?

 

[yesmaster]

It's normal to feel more positive about the job market as you become better established @RealSimulD.

But, the fundamentals of the job market haven't changed. I still see many academic enterprises as predatory, with excessive residency expansion as a cog in the machine of empire-building and institutional P&L. It's like gravity --- we can't fight it. It is what it is.

I wouldn't say "no one" should go into rad onc. It's just that our desirability as a specialty is no longer at the top with dermatology & orthopedics, as it was in 2009. It's at the bottom with pathology and emergency medicine. I'm okay with that, and most importantly, academic leaders are okay with that. The path to fix our desirability as a specialty is to cut spots, just like FAANG cut spots based on economic reality. Mark Zuckerberg gets it, SCAROP doesn't get it.

"We just need to invest more in the metaverse." "We just need to invest more in protons and MR-Linacs." Ok buddy.

Anyways, URM is a big trend in academic medicine nowadays. If UF got some money from their dean to support the URM plus DEI mission, and it dovetails with residency recruitment, good for them. I personally wouldn't waste paper or cloud space on their flyers, but it's fine.

 

[yesmaster]

If I had a good job with above average pay in a highly desirable city close to family and friends, would I encourage students to apply to rad onc? F**k no.

When we want to upgrade machines or SGRT, when we need another FTE of nursing or RTT, etc. it’s all more difficult when the RVU/revenue per radiation oncologist is artificially low.

The job market problem hurts all of us. Excess residency expansion essentially steals resources from community practice to provide a temporary subsidy to academic practice. Worst of all, that temporary subsidy isn’t even reinvested into academic rad onc at a lot of places! It’s invested into whatever the hospital CEO or university chancellor deem worthy, a maternity ward if you’re lucky and bonuses for administrators if you’re unlucky.

 

[deleted1111261]

1. RO is an amazing specialty
2. I would not go into it today
3. There are too many rad oncs
4. If someone else chooses it after evaluating all information, it does not make them stupid.
5. People are allowed to have different values than you do and with that come different choices.

It’s frustrating - I feel like I’m one of y’all .. but I’m just not that down on people making their own choices.

I remember how put off I was when I accepted my first job and there was a faculty at UW who I think is now in industry who told me I made a mistake with that practice. He knew. He knew the people there and it was terrible. He just knew it. He felt bad for me.

It was one of the best RadOnc jobs - one my friends were jealous of. If we wanted to go back to DC, I’d rejoin if they’d take me back.

Different values lead to different choices and different reflections on the outcome.

 

[deleted1111261]

It's normal to feel more positive about the job market as you become better established @RealSimulD.

But, the fundamentals of the job market haven't changed. I still see many academic enterprises as predatory, with excessive residency expansion as a cog in the machine of empire-building and institutional P&L. It's like gravity --- we can't fight it. It is what it is.

I wouldn't say "no one" should go into rad onc. It's just that our desirability as a specialty is no longer at the top with dermatology & orthopedics, as it was in 2009. It's at the bottom with pathology and emergency medicine. I'm okay with that, and most importantly, academic leaders are okay with that. The path to fix our desirability as a specialty is to cut spots, just like FAANG cut spots based on economic reality. Mark Zuckerberg gets it, SCAROP doesn't get it.

"We just need to invest more in the metaverse." "We just need to invest more in protons and MR-Linacs." Ok buddy.

Anyways, URM is a big trend in academic medicine nowadays. If UF got some money from their dean to support the URM plus DEI mission, and it dovetails with residency recruitment, good for them. I personally wouldn't waste paper or cloud space on their flyers, but it's fine.

I agree 100% with what you are saying. No caveats.

 

[thesauce]

So, these places have to recruit and them offering their own private money to do so is immoral?

Why do they have to recruit? So that they have the cheap resident labor rather than hiring faculty?

 

[deleted1111261]

Why do they have to recruit? So that they have the cheap resident labor rather than hiring faculty?

Yes. This is the diabolical plan! Not bad, Dr Mendenhall, not bad at all…