Got a talented 3rd year med student interested in rad onc?

[fiji128]

1. RO is an amazing specialty
2. I would not go into it today
3. There are too many rad oncs
4. If someone else chooses it after evaluating all information, it does not make them stupid.
5. People are allowed to have different values than you do and with that come different choices.

It’s frustrating - I feel like I’m one of y’all .. but I’m just not that down on people making their own choices.

I remember how put off I was when I accepted my first job and there was a faculty at UW who I think is now in industry who told me I made a mistake with that practice. He knew. He knew the people there and it was terrible. He just knew it. He felt bad for me.

It was one of the best RadOnc jobs - one my friends were jealous of. If we wanted to go back to DC, I’d rejoin if they’d take me back.

Different values lead to different choices and different reflections on the outcome.

The information to make an informed decision is easy to find and wildly available today in a way that wasn't almost 5 to 10 years ago. I question the judgement and maturity of any US med students that just ignores all of this and applies anyways. But that’s their call. All the data shows these programs will fill their slots with someone at the end of day anyways.

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[fiji128]

We always say we should be more like other industries. In tech and finance, the summer intern salary is pro-rated for 3 months at the same level as entry level analyst or equivalent positing.

3200 x 12 = 38k

The pgy1 salary is almost 60k

We have this peculiar quirk of wanting something and then when getting it, complaining.

A lot of these programs pay $3k for the summer. This is 3200 for 4 weeks for a Med student. That’s really fair. I did a summer internship after M1 in public policy in Manhattan and got $5k (in 2002). It was really great.

The programs are self - interested and will do as they should. Med students have access to information and they are fleeing. The market is slowly working. Would be better if programs contracted, but there is no stomach for it.

Be happy that students are getting paid. This should be the norm.

Desperation is a stinky cologne. Btw I saw on cnbc last night that SV type techs firms are paying undergrads (not even grad or PhD or MBA students) up to $8,000/month for summer intern positions.

 

[deleted1111261]

yep! And the analysts don’t complain.

 

[RickyScott]

The information to make an informed decision is easy to find and wildly available today in a way that was almost 5 to 10 years ago. I question the judgement and maturity of any US med students that just ignores all of this and applies anyways. But that’s their call. All the data shows these programs will fill their slots with someone at the end of day anyways.

I would argue that those who choose radonc are not truly informed. They may be more easily swayed by spin of self interested fraudsters posing as “mentors”.
Let’s say a naieve young URM meets Louis potters or Michael steinberg, they may think, there walks “ a learned proff” vs “academic huckster”

 

[Fpg1245]

I would argue that those who choose radonc are not truly informed. They may be more easily swayed by spin of self interested fraudsters posing as “mentors”.

“Mentoring” is basically gaslighting in rad onc at this point.

Academic RO faculty should be treated like sex offenders…prohibited from being within 1000 feet of a med student.

 

[RickyScott]

“Mentoring” is basically gaslighting in rad onc at this point.

Academic RO faculty should be treated like sex offenders…prohibited from being within 1000 feet of a med student.

Often there are creepy overtones of grooming.

 

[Palex80]

 

[fiji128]

I would argue that those who choose radonc are not truly informed. They may be more easily swayed by spin of self interested fraudsters posing as “mentors”.
Let’s say a naieve young URM meets Louis potters or Michael steinberg, they may think, there walks “ a learned proff” vs “academic huckster”

Almost irrelevant what some med student's selection process is. At the end of the day these programs will fill their spots with someone.

 

[fiji128]

Often there are creepy overtones of grooming.

If you look at Twitter its crazy how rotating med students are treated now compared to 10 years ago. You get the impression that when a rotating med student enters the rad onc department they are treated like the number one pick in the nfl draft. Red carpets are rolled out and a show is put on showing how great and wonderful everyone and everything is and how boundless the opportunities are. Chairs can't wait to meet these brilliant awe inspiring rock star students and post a pic on Twitter. Ten years ago it was "who are you?" and "don't speak unless asked too!".

 

[sirspamalot]

If you look at Twitter its crazy how rotating med students are treated now compared to 10 years ago. You get the impression that when a rotating med student enters the rad onc department they are treated like the number one pick in the nfl draft. Red carpets are rolled out and a show is put on showing how great and wonderful everyone and everything is and how boundless the opportunities are. Chairs can't wait to meet these brilliant awe inspiring rock star students and post a pic on Twitter. Ten years ago it was "who are you?" and "don't speak unless asked too!".

Then:

You have a 250 and first author Nature publication.

Meh.. Well then I guess we will interview along with the others. Next..

Now:

Hello!.. what is your name.. Jung Proton? Cool name. You will love our field. Welcome...

 

[stanley getz]

This is a shame. I am a proud white male with middle class conservative values who finds rad onc fascinating. I guess I don't deserve to be a rad onc as I am the wrong color.

 

[Fpg1245]

This is a shame. I am a proud white male with middle class conservative values who finds rad onc fascinating. I guess I don't deserve to be a rad onc as I am the wrong color.

Consider yourself lucky that you aren’t in vogue with the RO Brahmin and move on. It’s for the best…really.

 

[stanley getz]

Consider yourself lucky that you aren’t in vogue with the RO Brahmin and move on. It’s for the best…really.

pancreas and renal SABR is all I want to do though. But I guess I don't deserve exposure to rad onc on account of my skin colour. What a world.

 

[Fpg1245]

pancreas and renal SABR is all I want to do though. But I guess I don't deserve exposure to rad onc on account of my skin colour. What a world.

And I want to SABR left lung cancers on tues and thur only…sigh maybe in another life

 

[medgator]

Almost irrelevant what some med student's selection process is. At the end of the day these programs will fill their spots with someone.

Esp in the current environment where there has been a proliferation in DO/for profit schools without a resultant increase in residency spots. RO spots may be the only spots left for some medical students to take

 

[medgator]

If you look at Twitter its crazy how rotating med students are treated now compared to 10 years ago. You get the impression that when a rotating med student enters the rad onc department they are treated like the number one pick in the nfl draft. Red carpets are rolled out and a show is put on showing how great and wonderful everyone and everything is and how boundless the opportunities are. Chairs can't wait to meet these brilliant awe inspiring rock star students and post a pic on Twitter. Ten years ago it was "who are you?" and "don't speak unless asked too!".

John suh personally tweets out a thanks to every rotater now

 

[stanley getz]

And I want to SABR left lung cancers on tues and thur only…sigh maybe in another life

Maybe if you write a few DEI articles for red journal you'll have enough clout to make it happen.

 

[Fpg1245]

Maybe if you write a few DEI articles for red journal you'll have enough clout to make it happen.

😂 dude I’d rather end my life then submit to that in any form.

 

[communitydoc13]

Wait? Is somebody interacting with their own troll account?

 

[stanley getz]

Wait? Is somebody interacting with their own troll account?

Nah you have to find it remarkable that the lower corner of this page has a flashing caption about inclusivity while promoting a topic that is specifically about blocking out people who don't match that phenotype.

 

[IonsAreOurFuture]

It's normal to feel more positive about the job market as you become better established @RealSimulD.

But, the fundamentals of the job market haven't changed. I still see many academic enterprises as predatory, with excessive residency expansion as a cog in the machine of empire-building and institutional P&L. It's like gravity --- we can't fight it. It is what it is.

I wouldn't say "no one" should go into rad onc. It's just that our desirability as a specialty is no longer at the top with dermatology & orthopedics, as it was in 2009. It's at the bottom with pathology and emergency medicine. I'm okay with that, and most importantly, academic leaders are okay with that. The path to fix our desirability as a specialty is to cut spots, just like FAANG cut spots based on economic reality. Mark Zuckerberg gets it, SCAROP doesn't get it.

"We just need to invest more in the metaverse." "We just need to invest more in protons and MR-Linacs." Ok buddy.

Anyways, URM is a big trend in academic medicine nowadays. If UF got some money from their dean to support the URM plus DEI mission, and it dovetails with residency recruitment, good for them. I personally wouldn't waste paper or cloud space on their flyers, but it's fine.

I personally think that the longer one is in a job, or a specialty, the more it starts to feel like the hospital cafeteria.

I remember when I started at a new hospital job with a big nice cafeteria, I was like: Wow, this place has pizza, salad bar, sandwich bar, Asian bowl, hot grill, sushi rolls, Taco Tuesday, frozen yogurt machine, it's the best! I'm never going to get tired of eating here.

After a while, only the fro-yo sounds good, and they no longer offer free drink refills. Ouch.

To the medical student, Rad Onc is still all new and exciting, but for many on SDN, it's all downhill after Taco Tuesday.

The cafeteria itself hasn't changed that much, but the prices have gone up 50% and the produce in the salad bar isn't as fresh as it once was; but the new guy doesn't care, it's all new to him or her.

 

[deleted1111261]

I personally think that the longer one is in a job, or a specialty, the more it starts to feel like the hospital cafeteria.

I remember when I started at a new hospital job with a big nice cafeteria, I was like: Wow, this place has pizza, salad bar, sandwich bar, Asian bowl, hot grill, sushi rolls, Taco Tuesday, frozen yogurt machine, it's the best! I'm never going to get tired of eating here.

After a while, only the fro-yo sounds good, and they no longer offer free drink refills. Ouch.

To the medical student, Rad Onc is still all new and exciting, but for many on SDN, it's all downhill after Taco Tuesday.

The cafeteria itself hasn't changed that much, but the prices have gone up 50% and the produce in the salad bar isn't as fresh as it once was; but the new guy doesn't care, it's all new to him or her.

This is true about just about most things in life

 

[sirspamalot]

I hereby close this thread with a giant *)$** Meh.

 

[Fpg1245]

Nah you have to find it remarkable that the lower corner of this page has a flashing caption about inclusivity while promoting a topic that is specifically about blocking out people who don't match that phenotype.

Damn 5 messages and 4 hours later gets banned.

 

[evilbooyaa]

Damn 5 messages and 4 hours later gets banned.

Reincarnation of a previously banned user.

What is dead must stay dead

 

[Neuronix]

I hereby close this thread with a giant *)$** Meh.

Good idea