GPA and hooks

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Adamska

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I've heard mixed opinions on this but...to what extent does playing a "hard" (as in excruciatingly demanding, along the lines of basketball or football) division 1 sport handicap your GPA? People have told me there are people who "use that time practicing and playing doing something just as significant an EC"...but I don't think those folks have ever played a sport because unlike most other activities these take up more than just time...

Anyway, I may be thinking too hard about this as a rising freshman but I was trying to see if it would be worth it playing a D1 sport while doing year-round research and one or two academic clubs...would a higher MCAT (38+) offset a slight dip, or is this really a situation where they expect you to "go hard or go home" in every sense of the phrase (I have a feeling I already know the answer to that one...)?
 
Sports are seen as an EC, nothing more nothing less.
 
Is the title of this thread supposed to say "GPA and hooPs?" or did you really mean to put "hooKs?"
 
haha both I guess (someone on another site said it's a great hook and a school like HMS would view it and a 3.7 in the same light as a non-athlete with a 3.8). Given the current attitude towards a sport (just an EC...lmao), I think it's better if I don't do it.

also don't expect a 38+ MCAT that is 99+ percentile
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I have reasons for such confidence.
 
If you don't play a sport because you think it is gonna hurt your chances at getting into HMS... :laugh:

Focus on your school and social life and stop thinking about this kind of stuff as a freshmen or you'll be INSANE by the time you interview 3 years from now
 
scarletgirl777 said:
Why do we like to attack people who think they will do well on the MCAT? I don't remember people attacking others who set themselves goals of getting 1600/1600 on the SAT. Let the kid dream!
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That wasn't an attack. It was a question.... and a very reasonable one at that. 99% of the people who take the MCAT will not achieve a 38+, so when someone says they have reason to expect such a score (as an incoming freshman mind you), an explanation should follow. And if it doesnt, people will ask.
 
ryserr21 said:
That wasn't an attack. It was a question.... and a very reasonable one at that. 99% of the people who take the MCAT will not achieve a 38+, so when someone says they have reason to expect such a score (as an incoming freshman mind you), an explanation should follow. And if it doesnt, people will ask.
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Maybe the kid sees himself as a high achiever? Some percentage of people who believe that they are smarter than average or more hardworking than average or more knowledgeable than average are actually correct.
 
scarletgirl777 said:
Maybe the kid sees himself as a high achiever? Some percentage of people who believe that they are smarter than average or more hardworking than average or more knowledgeable than average are actually correct.
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No one said otherwise. Such an explanation from the OP would have sufficed, but none was given. Hence, people asked for one. thats my point. i'm not tying to argue about the OPs ability to actually acheive a score of 38+.
 
ryserr21 said:
No one said otherwise. Such an explanation from the OP would have sufficed, but none was given. Hence, people asked for one. thats my point. i'm not tying to argue about the OPs ability to actually acheive a score of 38+.
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Sorry if it sounded like I was trying to call you out, but it seems that anytime someone sets a high goal, even a goal not as high as 38, people make those comments. It's just something that I've never seen outside of SDN.
 
ryserr21 said:
That wasn't an attack. It was a question.... and a very reasonable one at that. 99% of the people who take the MCAT will not achieve a 38+, so when someone says they have reason to expect such a score (as an incoming freshman mind you), an explanation should follow. And if it doesnt, people will ask.
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If someone had asked me about the MCAT 3 years ago, I would be like "sure, of course I can get 99th percentile, I always do."

Now, I would have been right, but that doesn't make me any less of an idiot for thinking of it as a sure thing. I'm sure quite a few of us scored 1400+ on the old SAT, (what was 99th percentile anyway? 1480?) and were pretty confident when it came to standardized tests before we came across the MCAT. And most of the people who think so end up being proved wrong. Of course, the ~500-600 people a year who score 39+ are the exception, but I wouldn't count on it.
 
He might be able to say he has reasons to think 99%+ but he has no grounds to say that. It would be like me saying Im going to score 99% on my Step 1 just because I got into medical school.

Im not saying you cant but until you score 99th percentile dont use it as a buffer for a dip in GPA.

I say go for the sport, you get all sorts of benefits such as tutors on the road etc
 
I would play the sport if you want to play the sport.


Sports (doesn't matter what division) take up a lot of time, but so do a lot of other very involved Ecs (ie being very active in student government, demanding research labs, forming an organization that you are dedicated to and passionate about, some people work full-time, etc.) that people do successfully. It is possible to maintain a great GPA while dedicating time to sports, so don't use sports as an excuse to justify a poor academic performance.


Maybe join the team now and see if you continue to enjoy playing and are able to maintain a competitive GPA. If you are not having fun or are not remaining competitive, then drop the sport.


PS: It may sound like a good goal to want (or expect) a great MCAT, but it can only hurt you. If you are expecting to score in the top 1% on the MCAT (or anything else), you might slack on other things (ie GPA) and expect your MCAT to compensate. If you do not receive a high score, there are tons of very smart/dedicated pre-meds, your application will only suffer from your now lackluster GPA and MCAT. You may think you are smart, but there are thousands of other pre-med students that think the same thing. You also have very little exposure to the MCAT material atm, so you have no idea how well you will fair with these concepts and this one test.
 
scarletgirl777 said:
Maybe the kid sees himself as a high achiever? Some percentage of people who believe that they are smarter than average or more hardworking than average or more knowledgeable than average are actually correct.
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Doesn't really matter. I and others have suggested on many threads that "assuming" a high MCAT ought to be a bit of a cardinal sin. In terms of getting advice on a board like SDN, it is a waste of time for the crowd to assume things that are unlikely -- advice made on bad assumptions is bad advice. There's a reason that the average taker gets a score in the 20s and the average matriculant only has a 30. This isn't a test you are going to get a 38 just because you want one. Most of the students at the top med schools did not get a 38. It would ruin SDN if we had to "assume" a high score for everyone asking "what are my chances". Because in most cases the person who says this won't deliver. In fact, when someone says this, it makes it pretty clear they know nothing about the MCAT, making it more reasonable to assume a below average score. The one thing that would be reasonable to say here is something like - I have averaged 38 on my last three full length tests. Then we have something on which to give some advice. Saying things like "I always do well on standardized tests" doesn't count because most people in college have never taken a comparable one.
Sorry for the rant. But "assuming" high scores is epidemic around here, and yet the average (probably even amongst this crowd) is still going to be below 30, with the half that get into med school averaging at a 30. To assume yourself better than average, let alone in the upper echelon, without having started studying for the test and taken similar tests in test taking conditions is foolsplay.
 
Law2Doc said:
Doesn't really matter. I and others have suggested on many threads that "assuming" a high MCAT ought to be a bit of a cardinal sin. In terms of getting advice on a board like SDN, it is a waste of time for the crowd to assume things that are unlikely -- advice made on bad assumptions is bad advice. There's a reason that the average taker gets a score in the 20s and the average matriculant only has a 30. This isn't a test you are going to get a 38 just because you want one. Most of the students at the top med schools did not get a 38. It would ruin SDN if we had to "assume" a high score for everyone asking "what are my chances". Because in most cases the person who says this won't deliver. In fact, when someone says this, it makes it pretty clear they know nothing about the MCAT, making it more reasonable to assume a below average score. The one thing that would be reasonable to say here is something like - I have averaged 38 on my last three full length tests. Then we have something on which to give some advice. Saying things like "I always do well on standardized tests" doesn't count because most people in college have never taken a comparable one.
Sorry for the rant. But "assuming" high scores is epidemic around here, and yet the average (probably even amongst this crowd) is still going to be below 30, with the half that get into med school averaging at a 30. To assume yourself better than average, let alone in the upper echelon, without having started studying for the test and taken similar tests in test taking conditions is foolsplay.
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Agreed 100%. I also dominated standardized tests throughout my life but on my first MCAT diagnostic, I got a 26. The test is on a different level than what you're used to. I was expecting a 35+ on my first trial based on "i'm good at tests".
 
scarletgirl777 said:
Maybe the kid sees himself as a high achiever? Some percentage of people who believe that they are smarter than average or more hardworking than average or more knowledgeable than average are actually correct.
Click to expand...

Who cares what he sees himself as? Anyone who expects to get a 38+, especially at the onset of college, has no idea what they're talking about. The MCAT is not about your "beliefs" about your work ethic. There's no way to predict you'll get a 38+ unless you just got home from the MCAT and are positive you got the vast majority of the questions correct.
 
I agree that banking on a 38+ is a horrible game plan. That's not to say that I think the OP can't have high goals but a goal that high is NEVER a sure thing, and rarely pans out. IMO, scores above 35 tend to have a lot to do with luck. It is a much better idea to do as well as possible in school to compensate for a lower MCAT than the other way around, especially when you have no idea how you will score.

That said, i think that if you are passionate about the sport you should definitely do it. Schools like to see people who dedicate themselves to things they are passionate about (doesnt matter what those "things" are). Also, many top schools, especially with big sports programs like Michigan and Ohio State look very favorably on athletes because they feel athletes have a great understanding of hard/team work and dedication. They also understand that athletics are time-consuming and can prevent you from doing many other ECs etc.
 
I'm not a student athlete, but I've been tutoring them in the premed sciences for the past year. It is extremely hard to succeed while in athletics for a few reasons. For one, some sports take as much as 40 hours a week of practice (ie crew). Then there is the fact that it makes you physically tired. The worst part though is that sometimes the practices interfere with class sections. At my school, the girls who do crew pretty much can't be premeds because of the times of the big lecture hall premed classes and the practices interfere. I've heard of this in various sports. The sports advisors try to dictate your schedule and sometimes even your major. Other that that, I think it is a very cool extracurricular.
 
daniellema13 said:
I agree that banking on a 38+ is a horrible game plan. That's not to say that I think the OP can't have high goals but a goal that high is NEVER a sure thing, and rarely pans out. IMO, scores above 35 tend to have a lot to do with luck. It is a much better idea to do as well as possible in school to compensate for a lower MCAT than the other way around, especially when you have no idea how you will score.

That said, i think that if you are passionate about the sport you should definitely do it. Schools like to see people who dedicate themselves to things they are passionate about (doesnt matter what those "things" are). Also, many top schools, especially with big sports programs like Michigan and Ohio State look very favorably on athletes because they feel athletes have a great understanding of hard/team work and dedication. They also understand that athletics are time-consuming and can prevent you from doing many other ECs etc.
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But there is only so much slack that med schools will cut for athletes and their GPA...I don't think it is anywhere near as much as people on SDN assume...maybe a tenth of a point or so, but at some point, being an athlete in college is no excuse for sub par GPA...

Perhaps some of the actual college athletes who have gotten admission can chime in here, but I base my opinion on what I have seen in MDApps and a few of the posts made by those folks...my hat is off to them, just as it is to people who have to work full time to pay for college...but at some point, they only get so much benefit of the doubt on GPA...
 
flip26 said:
But there is only so much slack that med schools will cut for athletes and their GPA...I don't think it is anywhere near as much as people on SDN assume...maybe a tenth of a point or so, but at some point, being an athlete in college is no excuse for sub par GPA...

Perhaps some of the actual college athletes who have gotten admission can chime in here, but I base my opinion on what I have seen in MDApps and a few of the posts made by those folks...my hat is off to them, just as it is to people who have to work full time to pay for college...but at some point, they only get so much benefit of the doubt on GPA...
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Agreed 100%. Sorry maybe my post wasnt clear... i didnt mean that being an athlete is an excuse for a lower GPA, only that if you didn't do many other ECs (some of the typical stuff that lots of premeds do a ton of), that would be understandable. But athletics definitely won't excuse a lower GPA. The point was that if you can excel at BOTH you will probably be strongly considered many places, even with an "average" MCAT.
 
daniellema13 said:
Agreed 100%. Sorry maybe my post wasnt clear... i didnt mean that being an athlete is an excuse for a lower GPA, only that if you didn't do many other ECs (some of the typical stuff that lots of premeds do a ton of), that would be understandable. But athletics definitely won't excuse a lower GPA. The point was that if you can excel at BOTH you will probably be strongly considered many places, even with an "average" MCAT.
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Schools cut no breaks in GPA or MCAT because of ECs. You are expected to do it all well. And amongst the 10,000 applications that many schools get there will be thousands who do it all well. So never expect a break because you are a varsity athlete etc. By the same token, don't expect to be as interesting an applicant to med school if you have high grades and nothing else impressive. So you need to excel in multiple areas. That's all there is to it.
 
daniellema13 said:
Agreed 100%. Sorry maybe my post wasnt clear... i didnt mean that being an athlete is an excuse for a lower GPA, only that if you didn't do many other ECs (some of the typical stuff that lots of premeds do a ton of), that would be understandable. But athletics definitely won't excuse a lower GPA. The point was that if you can excel at BOTH you will probably be strongly considered many places, even with an "average" MCAT.
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My comments should have been directed more to the OP...sorry.

Athletes still have to do the volunteering / clinical gigs, too. Nobody is getting off that hook.

And ultimately, med schools want it all - athletes are great, but they need it all - high GPA, solid MCAT, a well expressed passion for medicine supported by clinical experiences, strong LORs, etc...being an athlete doesn't excuse missing any of these other elements, especially true of the academic measures...
 
flip26 said:
My comments should have been directed more to the OP...sorry.

Athletes still have to do the volunteering / clinical gigs, too. Nobody is getting off that hook.

And ultimately, med schools want it all - athletes are great, but they need it all - high GPA, solid MCAT, a well expressed passion for medicine supported by clinical experiences, strong LORs, etc...being an athlete doesn't excuse missing any of these other elements, especially true of the academic measures...
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Most of the pre-med athletes in my school went to class or the library in their gym clothes usually all sweaty and tired. It seems like a challenging undertaking because you really are expected to do community service, clinical exposure, and research on top of your athletic commitment.
 
BeardedRunner said:
Most of the pre-med athletes in my school went to class or the library in their gym clothes usually all sweaty and tired. It seems like a challenging undertaking because you really are expected to do community service, clinical exposure, and research on top of your athletic commitment.
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haha that is so true. I do that all the time. Its a good thing we staked out ourown study room to isolate the smell so only my friends have to suffer :laugh:
 
I was a varsity soccer player for 4 years in college. I busted my butt and maintained a 3.8+ gpa and did well on the MCAT. But I literally had no time to volunteer or gain clinical experience. So it was necessary to delay my application to med school. After I graduated from college, I spent the next year getting my ducks in order by volunteering at a free medical clinic and getting clinical exposure from a physician who took me under his wing. Then I applied to med school and started med school two years after I graduated from college.

I think that it would be pretty tough to be a varsity athlete in college and also jump through all of the necessary premed hoops and apply your senior year, although some people apparently are able to do it.

But actually, I enjoyed the break in my formal academic education. I am only 25 years old, and starting my second year of med school.
 
Hmm, well maybe my info sucked, haha. Or at least isn't the norm. I just know that a few admissions committees have openly stated that they take into consideration that varsity althletics are very time consuming and therefore understand that there is less room for other ECs. I wasn't implying that you won't need any clinical exposure or volunteering, just that if you don't have as much as a non athlete i've heard it wouldn't be a huge deal. But clearly i am not in the majority, so go with the majority 🙂
 
varsity sports are more than just an EC...its a lifestyle. it gives you experiences that you can get nowhere else, not to mention your time management skills are very developed and study skills very efficient.

I cant wait for people to come on here and say "oh no its not etc... your overstating it"

When i've heard med school deans speak... most say varsity athletes are very desirable if they have a decent scores and grades. but dont do it just for the app boost because your going to miss plenty of class when you travel... your going to be both mentally and physically drained at the end of everyday and then you remember you have to wake at 5:30am to do conditioning for 2+ hours right before that orgo exam.
 
wolvbb said:
__________________ are more than just an EC...its a lifestyle. it gives you experiences that you can get nowhere else, not to mention your time management skills are very developed and study skills very efficient.
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You realize that as long as something is time consuming it will fit in the blank and make sense.
 
DrYoda said:
You realize that as long as something is time consuming it will fit in the blank and make sense.
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True, but I think that most other ECs are not as time consuming. Not too many people have one individual EC where they spend 20+ hours a week working on it, and those 20 hours are on a schedule that someone else has set for you, not just whenever you have downtime.
 
Adamska said:
I've heard mixed opinions on this but...to what extent does playing a "hard" (as in excruciatingly demanding, along the lines of basketball or football) division 1 sport handicap your GPA? People have told me there are people who "use that time practicing and playing doing something just as significant an EC"...but I don't think those folks have ever played a sport because unlike most other activities these take up more than just time...

Anyway, I may be thinking too hard about this as a rising freshman but I was trying to see if it would be worth it playing a D1 sport while doing year-round research and one or two academic clubs...would a higher MCAT (38+) offset a slight dip, or is this really a situation where they expect you to "go hard or go home" in every sense of the phrase (I have a feeling I already know the answer to that one...)?
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:laugh: I'm sure we all thought we would get a 38+ coming out of high school, but very few actually do it. If I were you, I wouldn't go around thinking and saying these sorts of things, especially when you haven't even started college yet and have no idea what you're in for.
 
DrYoda said:
You realize that as long as something is time consuming it will fit in the blank and make sense.
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i disagree... its something you really must experience to understand. Its a combination of many many things some unique to the experience

btw: if you add the "optional" stuff it can easily push 40 hours
 
Adamska said:
I've heard mixed opinions on this but...to what extent does playing a "hard" (as in excruciatingly demanding, along the lines of basketball or football) division 1 sport handicap your GPA? People have told me there are people who "use that time practicing and playing doing something just as significant an EC"...but I don't think those folks have ever played a sport because unlike most other activities these take up more than just time...

Anyway, I may be thinking too hard about this as a rising freshman but I was trying to see if it would be worth it playing a D1 sport while doing year-round research and one or two academic clubs...would a higher MCAT (38+) offset a slight dip, or is this really a situation where they expect you to "go hard or go home" in every sense of the phrase (I have a feeling I already know the answer to that one...)?
Click to expand...

first off, never do an EC for the sake of it looking good on your med school application. Adcoms see through that sorta stuff real quick.
Secondly, keep in mind most people arent cut out to tackle so many things at once. if you CHOOSE to devote a certain amount of your time to sports, so be it, but it will not excuse the fact that you chose sports over premed if it becomes reflected in your grades.
life is about choices...the more experience you have, presumably the better you will become at making such choices. That being said, have a great four years in college and make sure you're happy.
 
^Um...I wasn't angling. I just don't want the sport to drag my GPA down too much (if I were pre-phed the decision would be a lot easier in favor of playing). But maintaining a high GPA wouldn't be as hard if I cut back on volunteering and research (i.e., limited these activities to summers, or maybe do research from right after post-season to right before pre-season)...so that's probably what I should have asked.

HurricaneKatt said:
...such as?
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I'm not saying I will score in that stratosphere, but my confidence stems from how I've trained in the sciences. Have you ever heard of the olympiads? They test the same level of material as found in the MCATs and with comparable time constraints. In order to do well in them, you have to at least have AP-level knowledge to make it past the first round...and even this isn't necessarily helpful, I barely missed the semi-finalist round for physics despite mastery of the AP topics (C, not B). But they don't even really test content as much as they emphasize problem-solving skills.

If anyone else here has taken those tests (espeically USABO, I know several pre-meds who were also USABO competitors and scored above a 40 on the MCAT, and they said there's definitely a correlation) I'd like to hear you weigh in.

Of course, I'm not guaranteeing anything, just saying I'm confident in my abilities to score in the high 30s.
 
Last edited:
Adamska said:
^Um...I wasn't angling. I just don't want the sport to drag my GPA down too much (if I were pre-phed the decision would be a lot easier in favor of playing)



I'm not saying I will score in that stratosphere, but my confidence stems from how I've trained in the sciences. Have you ever heard of the olympiads? They test the same level of material as found in the MCATs and with comparable time constraints. In order to do well in them, you have to at least have AP-level knowledge to make it past the first round...and even this isn't necessarily helpful, I barely missed the semi-finalist round for physics despite mastery of the AP topics (C, not B). But they don't even really test content as much as they emphasize problem-solving skills.

If anyone else here has taken those tests (espeically USABO, I know several pre-meds who were also USABO competitors and even scored above a 40 on the MCAT, and they said there's definitely a correlation) I'd like to hear you weigh in.

Of course, I'm not guaranteeing anything, just saying I'm confident in my abilities to score in the high 30s.
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If your so confident on your abilities on the MCAT your GPA should not be much of a concern either
 
What I really need to do is take a diagnostic MCAT first, and go from there.
 
Adamska said:
^Um...I wasn't angling. I just don't want the sport to drag my GPA down too much (if I were pre-phed the decision would be a lot easier in favor of playing). But maintaining a high GPA wouldn't be as hard if I cut back on volunteering and research (i.e., limited these activities to summers, or maybe do research from right after post-season to right before pre-season)...so that's probably what I should have asked.
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sorry, i didn't mean to sound like i was shaking my finger at you.
 
@gators: to see how what I've learned in the past 2 years stacks up to the test.

@milkman: how do you know I haven't done so already?
 
I don't, but again, I'm not sure why you'd bother taking practice MCATs without having the classes they test. That's a fairly phenomenal waste of time. Of course, you could always stop being so nebulous and *gasp* inform the people who're trying to give you advice of your exact position.
 
Adamska said:
@gators: to see how what I've learned in the past 2 years stacks up to the test.

@milkman: how do you know I haven't done so already?
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to put it nicely, you're an incoming freshman. your high school classes mean s-h-i-t when it comes to the MCAT.
 
@ milkman: lol good point. So going by college class reqs (of course, I'll be taking more advanced iterations of most of these anyway since I'm concentrating in the sciences):

gen chem - took two years ago
bio - took three years ago, spent last year re-learning it in greater scope & detail for the USABO
physics - took two years ago
organic chem - took last year
calculus - took three years ago
statistics - took two years ago

english is a continuous thing so I don't have enough basis to comment on how my verbal score would look right now...

I hate hi-jacking my own thread but this also leads me to another question: does anyone here know if med schools disfavor their pre-med ugrads? (i.e., HMS disfavoring students from Harvard College)
 
Adamska said:
@ milkman: lol good point. So going by college class reqs (of course, I'll be taking more advanced iterations of most of these anyway since I'm concentrating in the sciences):

gen chem - took two years ago
bio - took three years ago, spent last year re-learning it in greater scope & detail for the USABO
physics - took two years ago
organic chem - took last year
calculus - took three years ago
statistics - took two years ago

english is a continuous thing so I don't have enough basis to comment on how my verbal score would look right now...

I hate hi-jacking my own thread but this also leads me to another question: does anyone here know if med schools disfavor their pre-med ugrads? (i.e., HMS disfavoring students from Harvard College)
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but what HS offers organic chem? College classes are harder than their HS components. You learn more. You have a lot more work. Drop the ego now or you're going to regret it in the future.
 
Nah, he's gonna get a 38+ on the MCAT. We all know self-worth is predicted by assumed scores that won't be realized for 3 years. By the way, judging by how awesome I am, I have good reason to believe I'll get the first 500 on Step 1. That's right, a 500. I'm going to be a dermopthoncologist with a subspecialty in kicking major ass. Chuck Norris who?
 
MilkmanAl said:
Nah, he's gonna get a 38+ on the MCAT. We all know self-worth is predicted by assumed scores that won't be realized for 3 years. By the way, judging by how awesome I am, I have good reason to believe I'll get the first 500 on Step 1. That's right, a 500. I'm going to be a dermopthoncologist with a subspecialty in kicking major ass. Chuck Norris who?
Click to expand...


Wait, the Step 1 is out of 500? Hell, then why do people seem to have so much trouble cracking 480. That's just pie. Like, twenty wrong questions. No problem. Interventional rads, here I come!
 
Retsage said:
Wait, the Step 1 is out of 500? Hell, then why do people seem to have so much trouble cracking 480. That's just pie. Like, twenty wrong questions. No problem. Interventional rads, here I come!
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Step I is out of 300. No one has *ever* been reported to score a perfect score on it, and I think the highest reported score is in the low 280s.

Theres always a rumor of some Indian dude (who went to school in India) doing it once, but I don't believe it.
 
Raryn said:
Step I is out of 300. No one has *ever* been reported to score a perfect score on it, and I think the highest reported score is in the low 280s.

Theres always a rumor of some Indian dude (who went to school in India) doing it once, but I don't believe it.
Click to expand...

I am sure i'll score a 290+ on step I seeing as my dog thinks I am smart, OH and I made dean's list a few times. I heard the indian guy with the 300 made dean's list too.
 
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