gpa and residencies

[showbiz12]

I am currently a first year student. I understand that GPA is not everything when it comes to matching with residency programs but it is definitely a factor. I also understand that many residencies have a 3.0 GPA minimum. I would like to know how strictly the GPA minimum is enforced? For instance, can a student who has under a 3.0 but with many extracurriculars and solid performances in clinic/externships be granted an interview to those specific residency programs? Also, for the residency programs that do not have a GPA minimum, can those programs take a student whose GPA is as low as 2.0? And are 3rd and 4th year clinic/externships major GPA boosters if performed successfully or if the student receives A's in them? Thank you in advance.

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[VApoddoc]

To answer your question: Yes, there are many factors that is involved in resident selection. Can you get into a residency with less than a 3.0gpa? Yes, but I'm sure you have searched this and the answers all come up the same. The main questions you should be asking yourself are: "Why are you less than 3.0gpa as a 1st year?" "If you are barely passing, will you even pass the boards?" "Do I have what it takes?" "Why would I ever want 2.0gps doctors graduating and seeing patients?" Maybe you know the answer to these questions, but honestly every single student has an answer as to why they are failing. I have heard them all and they are nothing but excuses. Please don't take this personally, but this profession has historically taken less standards then DO/MD. This is the main problem with our profession. We need better performers, not 2.0gpa students that are hoping 2.0gpa will make the cut. This type of thinking needs to stop. It is only hurting the profession and fellow students. The thinking you have of "well Im a poor student, but I can excel in clinic's" is such a fallacy. If you are a poor performer at the theory and foundation of medicine, why do you think you will be a good doctor? Any one can be taught to talk to patients, take notes, suture and clean wounds. If only our profession was this easy. I want my fellow colleagues and doctor to have the knowledge of medicine that is retained through books, not a imposture wearing a white coat with a stethoscope around their neck playing the part.

You if can't make the grades right now, please think about the future of this profession and patients and take some time off to figure out if this profession is for you. Maybe you do have valid excuses as to why are you preforming so low. Taking time off will allow you to get your life in order and you will be able to return with the problems figured out and your question wouldn't even be an issue.

 

[showbiz12]

To answer your question: Yes, there are many factors that is involved in resident selection. Can you get into a residency with less than a 3.0gpa? Yes, but I'm sure you have searched this and the answers all come up the same. The main questions you should be asking yourself are: "Why are you less than 3.0gpa as a 1st year?" "If you are barely passing, will you even pass the boards?" "Do I have what it takes?" "Why would I ever want 2.0gps doctors graduating and seeing patients?" Maybe you know the answer to these questions, but honestly every single student has an answer as to why they are failing. I have heard them all and they are nothing but excuses. Please don't take this personally, but this profession has historically taken less standards then DO/MD. This is the main problem with our profession. We need better performers, not 2.0gpa students that are hoping 2.0gpa will make the cut. This type of thinking needs to stop. It is only hurting the profession and fellow students. The thinking you have of "well Im a poor student, but I can excel in clinic's" is such a fallacy. If you are a poor performer at the theory and foundation of medicine, why do you think you will be a good doctor? Any one can be taught to talk to patients, take notes, suture and clean wounds. If only our profession was this easy. I want my fellow colleagues and doctor to have the knowledge of medicine that is retained through books, not a imposture wearing a white coat with a stethoscope around their neck playing the part.

You if can't make the grades right now, please think about the future of this profession and patients and take some time off to figure out if this profession is for you. Maybe you do have valid excuses as to why are you preforming so low. Taking time off will allow you to get your life in order and you will be able to return with the problems figured out and your question wouldn't even be an issue.

I'm sorry that you misunderstood my post. I never said the things you implied in your reply. I never said I was a poor performer or that I was failing. I actually have well above a 3.0 after my first semester and I know I belong in this profession. I was just curious about how strictly residency programs enforce GPAs. Thanks for your opinion.

 

[VApoddoc]

My apology, I didn't realize you were "well above 3.0" and you just are curious how little work you need to apply and still make a residency. This is worst than not knowing you bit off more than you can handle. Here is a thread that was asked your same question: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/recidency-with-low-gpa.1109089/

Im sorry if my post was harsh and you feel you are on the defense. You can take or leave my advise, or others on here as no one wants poor performers as future colleagues. I do find it hard to believe that you are preforming so well and you are just asking this for no reason what so ever. First year is hard, and it will gradually increase in hardness. Be honest with yourself, as you are in a forum where no one knows you and you can say what you want, but you want to convince us, or maybe yourself that you belong here. You are the only one that can make that happen.

 

[jellybean2020]

Well this thread went sideways in a hurry. OP to answer your question, if you have > 3.0 you will at least look respectable come 4th year and can apply to most programs. If you have a 2.5 gpa you should be worried come 4th year and will find your opportunities more limited. Anyone with a 2.0 gpa -as in this hypothetical scenario - should have a 'come to Jesus" talk with an academic advisor asap. I don't see how a 2.0 gpa student would even make it to 4th year. Most schools (at least mine) have minimum gpa cutoffs higher than that and would kick you out.

 

[apollofx]

Match will be unforgiving for the student with a 2.5 GPA, focus on improvement and do all you can so you can land a quality residency program, or at the very least a program.

 

[Shireiqiang]

Grades get you in the door. They are not the end all. I rotated with two students this year, both near 4.0, and at the top of their classes. I must say I was not impressed. I don't think their grades are going to save them.

 

[dyk343]

If you are sub 3.0 it does not mean you will not get a residency. But like I said before... a lot of programs have a 3.0 gpa cutoff.

It's a game. You have to play your cards right no matter where you sit. Think it through and make the best decisions for yourself. Bad GPA? Don't sell yourself short and fill up all your externship months with big name programs only. Throw some safety programs in there if you can.

My advice to the students starting to rotate...

- Be yourself. Show some personality. Nobody wants to work with a future bland "meh" coresident. This year our #1 ranking didn't have the best gpa of the candidates but this student did work hard and made us laugh pretty regularly.
- Look up questions you didn't know and get back with the answers to the attendings/residents. Group emailing everyone in the room when you were asked the question the answer is a great way to not be awkward. Site your sources and have them be credible. Not Crozer manual or pocket pod. I would steer clear of siting class notes too. Find an article or the very least up to date.
- If you're asked something you might be asked it again to see if you actually looked it up.
- Don't get defensive if you don't know the answer to a pimp question. We pimp you because we know you don't know the answer - don't get bent out of shape. Were trying to teach you. We're also testing you to see how you react in an uncomfortable situation.
- Be early - students should be there before residents who should be there before attendings. It sucks - I know.
- Read about the cases and know the steps. If you get caught at the hospital after hours reading for tomorrow's case it's never a bad sign...
- Be proactive. Make sure local is drawn up. Make sure the OR lights are not tangled up. Pull up the xrays. Have the tourniquet ready.
- Be wary of the scrub techs. It is my personal opinion that scrub techs are a student's nightmare. They will treat you poorly. I really don't know why. But it will happen everywhere you go. Brush it off. 3rd year residents can also be pretty blunt towards students.
- During the incision... Call for a pair of Senn retractors. Don't be shy when retracting. Follow the surgeon. Just think to yourself "How can I make his/her visibility for what they are doing better?"
- Always have a sponge nearby- especially at the start of the case to dab away blood and whenever someone calls for a rongeur.
- Keep an eye for bleeders during dissection -Have the bovie ready.
- If you can't see anything neither can the surgeon. Suction or blot the blood.
- Hear us call for a suture? Call for suture scissors.
- See us throwing a wire for a cannulated system? Call for a hemostat to catch the pin so it doesn't pull out after over drilling the wire prior to screw placement. It always happens and its annoying. If you can stop the wire from pulling out - bonus points for you.
- Follow us when were throwing a subcutaneous running suture.
- In surgery small talk is for closing or whenever the residents/attendings are chatting.
- Ask questions, but don't ask questions you already know the answer to then answer them outloud to make yourself sound smart - it's annoying.
- Know how to do basic sutures. Get some pigs feet or felt. Buy some expired sutures on ebay if you have to. Know hand ties. Believe me we do judge your hand skills based on suture techniques. Can't suture? Not a good sign...
- Keep in mind the residents you're working with probably stayed up all night reading, got paged in the middle of the night, and slept minimal. There are days when we quite simply don't feel like teaching. Don't take it personal. We're tired, stressed, and just trying to get through - as are you.
-Try to have fun. It can be a stressful time for you. You are in a new hospital with new names and expectations every month. But keep your chin up and take the stress with stride.

I know that all sounds demanding but like I said it's a game. If a student performed the above and showed a good personality I don't see how they wouldn't be ranked high. Hopefully that answered your question in a constructive way.

Good luck!

 

[ManUnderFire]

If you are sub 3.0 it does not mean you will not get a residency. But like I said before... a lot of programs have a 3.0 gpa cutoff.

It's a game. You have to play your cards right no matter where you sit. Think it through and make the best decisions for yourself. Bad GPA? Don't sell yourself short and fill up all your externship months with big name programs only. Throw some safety programs in there if you can.

My advice to the students starting to rotate...

- Be yourself. Show some personality. Nobody wants to work with a future bland "meh" coresident. This year our #1 ranking didn't have the best gpa of the candidates but this student did work hard and made us laugh pretty regularly.
- Look up questions you didn't know and get back with the answers to the attendings/residents. Group emailing everyone in the room when you were asked the question the answer is a great way to not be awkward. Site your sources and have them be credible. Not Crozer manual or pocket pod. I would steer clear of siting class notes too. Find an article or the very least up to date.
- If you're asked something you might be asked it again to see if you actually looked it up.
- Don't get defensive if you don't know the answer to a pimp question. We pimp you because we know you don't know the answer - don't get bent out of shape. Were trying to teach you. We're also testing you to see how you react in an uncomfortable situation.
- Be early - students should be there before residents who should be there before attendings. It sucks - I know.
- Read about the cases and know the steps. If you get caught at the hospital after hours reading for tomorrow's case it's never a bad sign...
- Be proactive. Make sure local is drawn up. Make sure the OR lights are not tangled up. Pull up the xrays. Have the tourniquet ready.
- Be wary of the scrub techs. It is my personal opinion that scrub techs are a student's nightmare. They will treat you poorly. I really don't know why. But it will happen everywhere you go. Brush it off. 3rd year residents can also be pretty blunt towards students.
- During the incision... Call for a pair of Senn retractors. Don't be shy when retracting. Follow the surgeon. Just think to yourself "How can I make his/her visibility for what they are doing better?"
- Always have a sponge nearby- especially at the start of the case to dab away blood and whenever someone calls for a rongeur.
- Keep an eye for bleeders during dissection -Have the bovie ready.
- If you can't see anything neither can the surgeon. Suction or blot the blood.
- Hear us call for a suture? Call for suture scissors.
- See us throwing a wire for a cannulated system? Call for a hemostat to catch the pin so it doesn't pull out after over drilling the wire prior to screw placement. It always happens and its annoying. If you can stop the wire from pulling out - bonus points for you.
- Follow us when were throwing a subcutaneous running suture.
- In surgery small talk is for closing or whenever the residents/attendings are chatting.
- Ask questions, but don't ask questions you already know the answer to then answer them outloud to make yourself sound smart - it's annoying.
- Know how to do basic sutures. Get some pigs feet or felt. Buy some expired sutures on ebay if you have to. Know hand ties. Believe me we do judge your hand skills based on suture techniques. Can't suture? Not a good sign...
- Keep in mind the residents you're working with probably stayed up all night reading, got paged in the middle of the night, and slept minimal. There are days when we quite simply don't feel like teaching. Don't take it personal. We're tired, stressed, and just trying to get through - as are you.
-Try to have fun. It can be a stressful time for you. You are in a new hospital with new names and expectations every month. But keep your chin up and take the stress with stride.

I know that all sounds demanding but like I said it's a game. If a student performed the above and showed a good personality I don't see how they wouldn't be ranked high. Hopefully that answered your question in a constructive way.

Good luck!

Out of curiousity, Dyk, how many of the students you've seen that more-or-less followed this checklist during clerkship/externship continued to do so during residency? What I'm asking, esssentially, is did they play the game or were they really just good intentioned/pro-active people? If not, how do/did they fare during residency?

I tend to step back, observe, assess people's boundaries and preferences and then based on all that info...conduct myself accordingly (within the limits of my own personality/character, of course). Basically, I don't get 'involved' right away...I wait a bit (without standing with my hands in my pockets, of course). In time, I get in the thick of it without hesitation. I gather it would take me about a week to come into my own, so to speak. But, should I just be faking it until that moment comes? I would hate to come off disingenuous.

 

[dyk343]

Out of curiousity, Dyk, how many of the students you've seen that more-or-less followed this checklist during clerkship/externship continued to do so during residency? What I'm asking, esssentially, is did they play the game or were they really just good intentioned/pro-active people? If not, how do/did they fare during residency?

I tend to step back, observe, assess people's boundaries and preferences and then based on all that info...conduct myself accordingly (within the limits of my own personality/character, of course). Basically, I don't get 'involved' right away...I wait a bit (without standing with my hands in my pockets, of course). In time, I get in the thick of it without hesitation. I gather it would take me about a week to come into my own, so to speak. But, should I just be faking it until that moment comes? I would hate to come off disingenuous.

I'm a first year so I can't answer all of your questions. The above list is what I did as a student and it worked out well for me. It's also what I look for in students.

We've had a few good students who really made the day easier. We've also had a lot of students that really slow things down. Students who externed the last months before match were the best because they had the most experience. We have 3rd years now and while we like them it can really slow things down as they are so green.

In general the most helpful student's were ranked the highest. We also calculated GPA into our rankings.

Like I said... It's all a game. Every program will be different. You have to feel it out. But I would say its better to show initiative early than later on. Being on an externship is unfortunately similar to slave labor at many programs. You're whole job is to make the clinical/surgical encounter run more smooth. Standing in the shadows doesn't make us remember you very well.

How could I forget? Stuff your pockets with 4x4s, Betadine, tape, etc, etc when rounding.

 

[podschoolmember]

To answer your question: Yes, there are many factors that is involved in resident selection. Can you get into a residency with less than a 3.0gpa? Yes, but I'm sure you have searched this and the answers all come up the same. The main questions you should be asking yourself are: "Why are you less than 3.0gpa as a 1st year?" "If you are barely passing, will you even pass the boards?" "Do I have what it takes?" "Why would I ever want 2.0gps doctors graduating and seeing patients?" Maybe you know the answer to these questions, but honestly every single student has an answer as to why they are failing. I have heard them all and they are nothing but excuses. Please don't take this personally, but this profession has historically taken less standards then DO/MD. This is the main problem with our profession. We need better performers, not 2.0gpa students that are hoping 2.0gpa will make the cut. This type of thinking needs to stop. It is only hurting the profession and fellow students. The thinking you have of "well Im a poor student, but I can excel in clinic's" is such a fallacy. If you are a poor performer at the theory and foundation of medicine, why do you think you will be a good doctor? Any one can be taught to talk to patients, take notes, suture and clean wounds. If only our profession was this easy. I want my fellow colleagues and doctor to have the knowledge of medicine that is retained through books, not a imposture wearing a white coat with a stethoscope around their neck playing the part.

You if can't make the grades right now, please think about the future of this profession and patients and take some time off to figure out if this profession is for you. Maybe you do have valid excuses as to why are you preforming so low. Taking time off will allow you to get your life in order and you will be able to return with the problems figured out and your question wouldn't even be an issue.

Wow. Not sure how I feel about this.