grad student: chances question

[Creightonite]

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I am in process of finishing up my Ph.D. degree in physiology.

So my UG GPA 3.17 and Science GPA 3.17 from a small school in midwest with about 3.36 GPA in the last two years
My grad GPA is 3.66
I am an august MCATer, but my practice test were about 27 (a 7 in VR... english is not my first language).

I volunteered and did some shadowing in college, not much of that in grad school. Helped with medical school labs during grad shool. A few publications, 2 of them are first authors.

I was wondering what kind of schools I should be looking to apply to? I am not sure how I will be viewed by the adcoms. Which schools love PhDs? I already spoke to an addmission office of one school and their sounded excited when I said I will be a Ph.d. I would height to do a postbacc because it would be a step back. I already have taken harder classes in grad school and did ok in them. I am pretty sure that if I survived a PhD at this point, I will servive medical school.

 

[njbmd]

There are no specific schools that LOVE or HATE applicants with Ph.Ds. You are in the mix with everyone who applies in your cycle. As for schools, you should apply to schools that you want to attend and for which you are competitive. You can use your undergraduate GPA and MCAT score for guidance. Add some schools where you exceed the averages and add some schools that are definitely a reach. Also apply to both osteopathic and allopathic medical schools and apply across the board. In 2006, in spite of what you read or hear, there is no difference in career after graduation from osteopathic or allopathic medical school in the United States.

The biggest hurdle that I see for you is your undergraduate GPA. It is on the low side for matriculants to medical school. Your graduate GPA is also on the lower side as graduate GPAs go. A good score on the MCAT will help you (greater than 30) but a poor score will not so let's hope you have broken 30. Other things that make you more competitive are your publications.

Completing a Ph.D does not PROVE that you can "survive" medical school. I have seen Ph.Ds crash and burn when it comes to the sheer volume of material to be mastered in medical courses. If English is not your first language, you need to be sure that your English skills are strong as communication is vital for any medical student especially in the clinical years.

Apply broadly (minimally your state schools, DO schools and some reach schools) and see what happens. If you are not successful, find out what you need to upgrade, make the upgrades and re-apply. Bottom line: Make your application as competitive as possible.

Unless you find that you have a significant knowledge deficit in your pre-med coursework, I agree that a post bacc is not going to be useful for you. If your MCAT comes in low, you may want to take a prep course but otherwise, have good LORs, get more extracurricular activities and apply broadly and see what happens.

 

[relentless11]

I agree with what njbmd said. In my PhD program, students have at least a 3.5 GPA just to be eligible for our program specific grants and funding. Most have a 3.6-3.8 GPA. Additionally, graduate students don't take that many classes compared to undergrads. My classmates will finish our core requirements in one years time, and are planning to just focus on research from there on out. So a less than standard grad GPA in just 1-2 years of schoolwork isn't that exciting either. Perhaps you could take more classes?

MCAT will be key, as njbmd stated, a score of 30 or more is probably best. It is my impression that applying as a PhD student, you need to perform just as good, if not better than the traditional applicants. Given the national average is 28-30, you can see why a score of 30 or more is recommended. Additionally, a verbal reasoning score of 7 is not acceptable. Ages ago when I took the MCAT, they said you should get AT LEAST an 8, but I would bet that a 9 or better is considered competative these days.

Now about grad school allowing you to survive med school....I have found graduate school and med school are apples and oranges. My graduate courses, although challenging in their own way, emphasized more on experimental design, than just sheer memorization. While the med school courses that I took were rightfully aimed towards success on the Step I exam. A typical grad student in my program takes 2-3 classes, and maybe a few seminars per quarter. My day would probably go from 9am-1pm. Thats not even full time yet until you factor in the time you do research. When I took the med school classes, I had the opportunity to see their schedule, and it was far more rigorous in terms of classes. On average, they went from 9-5 on a good day, and on a bad day it went from 10-7p. The classes consisted of Doctoring, Molecular Biology, Gross Anatomy, Cell/Tissue Biology, Physiology. As a physiology graduate student, you already know how much material there is. Now combine that with anatomy and everything else! Thats just hte first quarter.

I'm not trying to discourage you, but just to warn you about underestimating the med school curriculum. I for one am not even going to attempt to estimate my success in med school despite taking numerous courses from our program. Its entirely different when you are there, and have to take all the classes at the same time. Sure I'm not going to be kicked out for failing my classes, but the question is getting into med school, and that really depends on your performance as a pre-med, which translates to GPA/MCAT scores. Good luck!

 

[Scottish Chap]

You've done well in graduate school and successful people tend to do well wherever they go. With a fine showing on the MCAT and a wide application, I predict that you'll be fine. If your August MCAT is not what you wanted, take it again...and again if you need to. It's far easier to overcome an unacceptable MCAT than an unacceptable GPA. I'm a MSII and I feel that my previous graduate training was demanding and excellent preparation for the discipline needed to do alright in medical school. Medical school classes are not detailed at all; by virtue of the huge volume, they often just scratch the surface. You get used to the volume after a month or two. Based on my own experience, any reasonbly bright person will do just fine in medical school if you work hard. While it's hard to gain admission and it would be misleading to say it's easy once you get there, you definitely do not have to be a genius. I'm living proof. My very best to you!

 

[Creightonite]

I agree with what njbmd said. In my PhD program, students have at least a 3.5 GPA just to be eligible for our program specific grants and funding. Most have a 3.6-3.8 GPA. Additionally, graduate students don't take that many classes compared to undergrads. My classmates will finish our core requirements in one years time, and are planning to just focus on research from there on out. So a less than standard grad GPA in just 1-2 years of schoolwork isn't that exciting either. Perhaps you could take more classes?

MCAT will be key, as njbmd stated, a score of 30 or more is probably best. It is my impression that applying as a PhD student, you need to perform just as good, if not better than the traditional applicants. Given the national average is 28-30, you can see why a score of 30 or more is recommended. Additionally, a verbal reasoning score of 7 is not acceptable. Ages ago when I took the MCAT, they said you should get AT LEAST an 8, but I would bet that a 9 or better is considered competative these days.

Now about grad school allowing you to survive med school....I have found graduate school and med school are apples and oranges. My graduate courses, although challenging in their own way, emphasized more on experimental design, than just sheer memorization. While the med school courses that I took were rightfully aimed towards success on the Step I exam. A typical grad student in my program takes 2-3 classes, and maybe a few seminars per quarter. My day would probably go from 9am-1pm. Thats not even full time yet until you factor in the time you do research. When I took the med school classes, I had the opportunity to see their schedule, and it was far more rigorous in terms of classes. On average, they went from 9-5 on a good day, and on a bad day it went from 10-7p. The classes consisted of Doctoring, Molecular Biology, Gross Anatomy, Cell/Tissue Biology, Physiology. As a physiology graduate student, you already know how much material there is. Now combine that with anatomy and everything else! Thats just hte first quarter.

I'm not trying to discourage you, but just to warn you about underestimating the med school curriculum. I for one am not even going to attempt to estimate my success in med school despite taking numerous courses from our program. Its entirely different when you are there, and have to take all the classes at the same time. Sure I'm not going to be kicked out for failing my classes, but the question is getting into med school, and that really depends on your performance as a pre-med, which translates to GPA/MCAT scores. Good luck!

Wow, in our PhD program there are lots of classes to take. I am a 4th year now and I am still taking classes. I have been taking 1-2 classes every semester and still cannot get done with the requirements. We have to pass two qualification exams. I am done with one and have one more to go this Winter.

My day is 6:30am-7pm in the lab and about 11am-6pm on weekends. Sometime I have some time to do homework while I am in the lab and sometimes I have stuff leftover for after work. Thats how I could even think about graduating in 4 years. I guess different programs have different requirements.

My English is ok. I was told that a 7 is ok in VR especially if English is your second language.

 

[Creightonite]

You've done well in graduate school and successful people tend to do well wherever they go. With a fine showing on the MCAT and a wide application, I predict that you'll be fine. If your August MCAT is not what you wanted, take it again...and again if you need to. It's far easier to overcome an unacceptable MCAT than an anacceptable GPA. I'm a MSII and I feel that my previous graduate training was demanding and excellent preparation for the discipline needed to do alright in medical school. Medical school classes are not detailed at all; by virtue of the huge volume, they often just scratch the surface. You get used to the volume after a month or two. Based on my own experience, any reasonbly bright person will do just fine in medical school if you work hard. While it's hard to gain admission and it would be misleading to say it's easy once you get there, you definitely do not have to be a genius. I'm living proof. My very best to you!

that's what I kind of felt from talking to medical students. Thanks for the encouragement.

 

[QofQuimica]

I am in process of finishing up my Ph.D. degree in physiology.

So my UG GPA 3.17 and Science GPA 3.17 from a small school in midwest with about 3.36 GPA in the last two years
My grad GPA is 3.66
I am an august MCATer, but my practice test were about 27 (a 7 in VR... english is not my first language).

I volunteered and did some shadowing in college, not much of that in grad school. Helped with medical school labs during grad shool. A few publications, 2 of them are first authors.

I was wondering what kind of schools I should be looking to apply to? I am not sure how I will be viewed by the adcoms. Which schools love PhDs? I already spoke to an addmission office of one school and their sounded excited when I said I will be a Ph.d. I would height to do a postbacc because it would be a step back. I already have taken harder classes in grad school and did ok in them. I am pretty sure that if I survived a PhD at this point, I will servive medical school.

I really think that before you start worrying about where to apply you should think about what your goals are. If you know where you want to end up, it's a lot easier to make a plan to get there. Do you want to continue doing research as an MD/PhD, or are you wanting to go straight clinical? If it's the former, you'll want to concentrate on schools that have research as part of their mission statement. If it's the latter, then you should start doing some more volunteering and shadowing NOW, because your research background will not give you as much of a boost at schools that have more clinically-oriented missions. Actually, you should start doing some shadowing and volunteering no matter where you apply, because just about every school cares about those ECs, even the most research intensive ones.

If you buy an MSAR or check one out of the library, you will see that every school in this country gives a brief mission statement. Look for schools whose mission matches your career goals, and look for schools who will accept residents from your state. In addition, look at the stats and ECs for matriculants, and try to mainly pick schools where you are not way below the mean. In other words, if you are applying with an MCAT of 27 and a GPA of 3.1, I hope that Wash U isn't your dream school. They are definitely a research-intensive school that seems to like seeing significant research from their applicants, but I think that you'd face a serious uphill battle getting in there with your stats considering that their AVERAGES are like 3.9 for UG GPA and 38 on the MCAT.

Hope this helps, and best of luck to you. 🙂

 

[Creightonite]

Honestly, I do not have any interest or time to do volunteering right now with an exam coming up, classes, research and applying to med school. Without having a med degree all volunteering really turns out into doing that somebody else does not want to do or should get paid for, at least on my personal experience. As far as shadowing goes, I did that and do not see a point doing anymore because I know how a day of a doctor looks like.

 

[sunmoon6689]

You are looking at volunteering in the wrong way. Volunteering should be a fun, beneficial experience that makes you feel good about yourself and your contributions to the community. It is a really good opportunity to help people who are in need. I have always enjoyed volunteer work, and I actually feel my quality of life has decreased since my free time has all but diminished due to my graduate work. I sincerely miss all the volunteer activities I was able to participate in. A good doctor is only good if he/she is willing to give of him/herself. Compassion, understanding, and kindness can all develop through volunteer work. Such qualities are necessary in medicine. You should reevaluate your interest in such a people-oriented field if you have no interest in helping humanity without a paycheck. I am not saying that I do not hope for a good paycheck in the future, but I will always be willing to donate some of my time for those in need.

 

[Creightonite]

only one out of 3 places I volunteered at I really liked. But since I moved, I could not volunteer there anymore. 🙁 Anyhow, i might look for a new place that does not bore me to death with justy doing paperwork and stuff.

 

[relentless11]

Wow, in our PhD program there are lots of classes to take. I am a 4th year now and I am still taking classes. I have been taking 1-2 classes every semester and still cannot get done with the requirements. We have to pass two qualification exams. I am done with one and have one more to go this Winter.

My day is 6:30am-7pm in the lab and about 11am-6pm on weekends. Sometime I have some time to do homework while I am in the lab and sometimes I have stuff leftover for after work. Thats how I could even think about graduating in 4 years. I guess different programs have different requirements.

My English is ok. I was told that a 7 is ok in VR especially if English is your second language.

Yea thats pretty strange that you have required classes by your 4th year. For the most part, the programs that I've looked into like those at the UC schools, and others like UMass try to keep your life class free so you can finish your thesis in some "reasonable" amount of time. I however have heard of some programs that require 2 qualifying exams. I think some of our engineering programs have that (one written, the other oral).

I agree with Q up there, volunteering is a must whether you are a trad or non-trad. Given so much time has gone by, and most of that time in the lab away from patients, recent volunteer work would probably be a good idea. As an undergrad, I had hours upon hours of volunteering. Now years later, I still try to have some kind of community service to keep my stats up to date.

On a side note, is it just me, but being a PhD friendly school is probably indepedent of the school being research oriented. Seems the stats are similar in terms of how many PhDs get in. Perhaps this is a false result due to the limited amount of PhD's that actually want to go to med school. However I do know that most research oriented schools, like UCSF, UCLA and of course Wash U, have very high stats. The mean undergrad GPA and MCAT for UCSF was like 3.79, and 33 respectively. Heck UCSF even says they don't look highly upon those that have a GPA <3.2🙁. I'm sure other schools are similar.

I highly recommend you to boost your undergrad GPA to at least a 3.2 though. The higher the better! Combined with a competative MCAT, you should be better off at any institution. The reason being, and I'm surprised nobody has said this yet, but graduate GPA is weighted less than undergrad GPA. However this may be variable, since it is my impression from other SDNers that graduate GPA might have helped, but to what extent it is very hard to say....like many things associated with this game. But straight from the mouths of all the med school's that i've talked to, namely the UC med schools, undergrad GPA >> grad GPA. Push hard, you'll get there. I think the biggest thing in favor for holders of PhD degrees is the fact that they can endure the long path to med school (and beyond). So good luck!

 

[t33sg1rl]

Creightonite,

Your application will probably be similar to mine, except I never finished my grad degree and both my grad and undergrad GPA's were lower than yours. I also never did ANY kind of volunteering, medical or otherwise. I never shadowed, either.

I got into medical school by highlighting the strong points in my application. In my case, my major strong point was four years of laboratory research. Since I had done so much research, in my personal statement, I wrote that I wanted to go into academic medicine to pursue a research career. I'd strongly recommend that regardless of what you actually want to do, you should write that you're interested in a research career.

Not one school cared about my lack of volunteering or shadowing. They all wanted me to explain why my undergraduate grades were low (my science GPA was below 3). My graduate GPA was 3.5 and they loved it-I think that they consider graduate classes much more difficult than undergrad classes.

If your MCAT comes back 30 or over, then I think that you're a very strong candidate, and your chances will be better at MD schools than DO schools. (DO schools do not value PhDs nearly as much as MD schools). If your MCAT is 27-29, I'd apply anyway, but be prepared to take the MCAT again. With 26 or less MCAT, don't apply. Wait and retake the MCAT in April.

 

[Creightonite]

At this point, I am not considering DO schools because of the reasons above. I did stress the research in the secondaries and personal statement so I will see how that will go.

 

[relentless11]

Creightonite,

Your application will probably be similar to mine, except I never finished my grad degree and both my grad and undergrad GPA's were lower than yours. I also never did ANY kind of volunteering, medical or otherwise. I never shadowed, either.

I got into medical school by highlighting the strong points in my application. In my case, my major strong point was four years of laboratory research. Since I had done so much research, in my personal statement, I wrote that I wanted to go into academic medicine to pursue a research career. I'd strongly recommend that regardless of what you actually want to do, you should write that you're interested in a research career.

Not one school cared about my lack of volunteering or shadowing. They all wanted me to explain why my undergraduate grades were low (my science GPA was below 3). My graduate GPA was 3.5 and they loved it-I think that they consider graduate classes much more difficult than undergrad classes.

If your MCAT comes back 30 or over, then I think that you're a very strong candidate, and your chances will be better at MD schools than DO schools. (DO schools do not value PhDs nearly as much as MD schools). If your MCAT is 27-29, I'd apply anyway, but be prepared to take the MCAT again. With 26 or less MCAT, don't apply. Wait and retake the MCAT in April.

Although I don't dispute your claims, I find this to be an outlier in distribution of applicants. Volunteering, clinical experience and so forth is a standard these days. Our deans of admissions here at the UC med schools ALL say that such extracurriculars are a must to even be competative.

I do agree that ones personal statement should emphasize strong points, however I do not agree with throwing in something such as doing academic medicine when you do not intend to do so. This can be brought up during interview, and if not truthful, it may come back to bite you in the behind. I'm sure med schools have seen and heard it all, so one such statement, combined with sub-par work does not help that much.

I think for most applicants who hold a PhD, it will be an uphill battle. There are those of us in here who had spectacular MCAT scores (40+), and graduate GPA's (4.0)..who found the applicant process to still be quite challenging. Others with 4.0 graduate GPAs may not even make it due to sub-par undergrad GPA (screening). Lastly it has been my impression, although DO schools may not value graduate degrees as much as MD schools, DO schools certainly include graduate coursework in their GPA calculations which is a good thing.

 

[Scottish Chap]

I think for most applicants who hold a PhD, it will be an uphill battle. There are those of us in here who had spectacular MCAT scores (40+), and graduate GPA's (4.0)..who found the applicant process to still be quite challenging. Others with 4.0 graduate GPAs may not even make it due to sub-par undergrad GPA (screening).

Medical schools care about two things more than any anything else: undergraduate GPA and MCAT. If you're presentable and you apply widely, you should be fine. Having a Ph.D. is not a disadvantage at all. If anything, you'll find (as I did) that research-focused medical schools care so much about your research experience, that they might neglect to even ask you why you want to do an M.D. (amazingly, this happened to me at a private medical school to which I was accepted but I did not attend. It was troubling). As for shadowing: I never did one minute of it. I worked with docs in both research and clinical service so I didn't think it was necessary. You should shadow if you cannot demonstrate tangilbly that you know what you're getting into, but I think building up 100's of hours is not necessary. All of the volunteer work that I did was out of personal interest before I even considered applying to medical school and I can hand-on-heart say that I didn't do any more once I decided to apply. Bottom line: MCAT and GPA aside, medical schools really want balanced, rounded applicants and I think there are many ways to demonstrate that based on what your background is.

 

[relentless11]

As for shadowing: I never did one minute of it. I worked with docs in both research and clinical service so I didn't think it was necessary. You should shadow if you cannot demonstrate tangilbly that you know what you're getting into, but I think building up 100's of hours is not necessary. All of the volunteer work that I did was out of personal interest before I even considered applying to medical school and I can hand-on-heart say that I didn't do any more once I decided to apply. Bottom line: MCAT and GPA aside, medical schools really want balanced, rounded applicants and I think there are many ways to demonstrate that based on what your background is.

Agreed, being well-balanced is a must. Which is why I believe that t33sg1rl's experience is an outlier. Some kind of clinical exposure is needed, and some kind of community service may also be helpful in addition to everything else. However just soley on PhD work (e.g., without other EC's), then it may be quite difficult.

 

[Creightonite]

I decided pretty that I do not want to take any undergrad bio or chem science classes because there is not any new materials in them (unless of course I take ecology and zoology stuff, but i have little interest in either of these things). That would be a regression in my education and I am pretty sure med schools will see that. I spoke to one of the schools admissions people on the east coast and I was actually advised not to do a postbacc because I actually have pretty good grades for uppder level undergrad classes.

 

[Creightonite]

as far as ECs go, yes I do need to get involved in something really fast.

 

[Wizard of Oz]

Whatever you do, don't make it look like you feel entitled to be admitted for med school simply because you have a doctorate. They will want to know why you spent so much time on other things before realizing that you didn't want to do it. Adcoms will also want to see some evidence that after so many years of college, you have found the time to get some clinical exposure.

 

[nubbey24]

If I can add my two cents here...

With regards to your MCAT score, if you have a stellar application otherwise, and good science scores on your MCAT it is my experience that a 7 in verbal reasoning can be overlooked. I am currently applying with a masters degree, extensive research with many publications, and have already recieved 6 interviews that I will have gone to by the end of this month. (all allopathic in the states). I got a 7 in verbal reasoning. I think everyone of my interviewers has looked at it as an abnormality on my applicaiton and was able to see past it. Good LORS, essays, and GPA mean a whole lot too!! So keep your head up, write good essays and score reasonably well on the MCAT and you will be fine. Don't let one little verbal score hold you back from going into medicine.

Granted, I have not been accepted yet, but I have to think out of 6 interviews one will say yes...

Good luck to all.

 

[cbd]

Hi All-

I started a new thread (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=331189) before i was directed here. I wish everyone here would be more optimistic!! The MDs that I volunteer with view my graduate work as a great thing! Also- I was very well received at my first interview. While MCAT and UG GPA are very important- I think work beyond undergraduate says a lot!! Remember we are non-traditional students and will be viewed that way- factors beyond the numbers are important!! As long as you get through the screening process you have a chance 🙂 I hate to think that undergraduate grades from 8 years ago are going to decide my fate now- especially after strong work in my last two years of UG and a solid Graduate GPA.

Just some thoughts....

Good luck!!