Grades question. H/P/F system

[deleted413795]

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Hey everyone! I am in my first semester of M-1, and am just curious about what the end meaning of the grading is. I am trying to learn as much as possible and shoot for the best grade I possibly can get, but even being a dedicated student it is tough to get to the honors level.

My question is, how many honors grades is typical for a transcript. If I am interested in more competitive specialties, will just passing my classes be ok? I am just curious as to how that all works, especially since a couple classes are over and I missed the honors cut off by literally one point in one of them, which is frustrating because it gives me the same grade (P) as someone who had a 60% in the class.

 

[DrSnips]

Hey everyone! I am in my first semester of M-1, and am just curious about what the end meaning of the grading is. I am trying to learn as much as possible and shoot for the best grade I possibly can get, but even being a dedicated student it is tough to get to the honors level.

My question is, how many honors grades is typical for a transcript. If I am interested in more competitive specialties, will just passing my classes be ok? I am just curious as to how that all works, especially since a couple classes are over and I missed the honors cut off by literally one point in one of them, which is frustrating because it gives me the same grade (P) as someone who had a 60% in the class.

Two things:

1) Grading schema are not uniform across schools, so there is no typical number of honors. Some schools may give 10% of students honors, others may give 50%. Find out what the breakdown is for your school to know roughly where you stand.

2) MS1/MS2 grades are not nearly as important for matching into a good residency as Step 1 scores and MS3 grades. At least one survey of program directors has shown that to be the case. NB: I am not saying that you shouldn't work hard during preclinical years, I am saying you should be aware of how much your work is going to accomplish. There are other things that can build up your eventual application besides grades. Weight your efforts appropriately.

 

[Law2Doc]

...

MS1/MS2 grades are not nearly as important for matching into a good residency as Step 1 scores and MS3 grades. At least one survey of program directors has shown that to be the case. NB: I am not saying that you shouldn't work hard during preclinical years, I am saying you should be aware of how much your work is going to accomplish...

this. I've had faculty tell me that the "dirty little secret" of med school is that the first two years of grades really don't count for squat so long as you pass, and really are just foundation for Step 1, which counts a great deal, and your third year core rotation evaluations (evaluations more than grades), which also count. So yeah, the guy who suddenly seems to "wake up" at the end of 2nd year in time to study for Step 1 often can do better for residency than the folks killing themselves honoring through the first two years. Honoring during the third year rotation you plan to specialize in also would be a good idea if possible. Otherwise just try to be thought of as smart, enthusiastic and a hard worker by all your attendings and you will be fine.

 

[MedPR]

Do any of you that attend, or attended, a H/HP/P/F school wish you had attended a P/F school? I made a thread in pre-allo, but it isn't getting much love.

 

[deleted413795]

Law2Doc: That is nice to hear from someone outside of my school, since that is what the advisors have said here also. It makes sense too, because as Dr. Snips mentioned, grading and class structure is not standardized, whereas Step I is; and it is testing what you should know from those first two years.

Thanks a bunch for your responses guys. It sounds like I do not have anything to worry about at this point. I still am in the running for honors in a couple other classes, so hopefully I can get one of those!

 

[deleted413795]

Do any of you that attend, or attended, a H/HP/P/F school wish you had attended a P/F school? I made a thread in pre-allo, but it isn't getting much love.

Personally, I wish I attended an H/HP/P/F school for this very reason. I don't like that my hard work is not differentiated from the P=MD crowd. I feel like P/F encourages the "get by" attitude, which is pretty prevalent in my program. Granted, it is those people's own fault if they take that approach, but it is still discouraging for those of us who do make an effort to do well and keep a balanced lifestyle.

Congrats on your acceptance(s), by the way!

 

[MedPR]

Personally, I wish I attended an H/HP/P/F school for this very reason. I don't like that my hard work is not differentiated from the P=MD crowd. I feel like P/F encourages the "get by" attitude, which is pretty prevalent in my program. Granted, it is those people's own fault if they take that approach, but it is still discouraging for those of us who do make an effort to do well and keep a balanced lifestyle.

Congrats on your acceptance(s), by the way!

That's a good way to look at it. I'm hopeful that I will be able to perform at or near the top of my class, but I know it's statistically unrealistic and I'm unsure of how to figure out which is best.

Also thank you!

 

[MCAT guy]

Personally, I wish I attended an H/HP/P/F school for this very reason. I don't like that my hard work is not differentiated from the P=MD crowd. I feel like P/F encourages the "get by" attitude, which is pretty prevalent in my program. Granted, it is those people's own fault if they take that approach, but it is still discouraging for those of us who do make an effort to do well and keep a balanced lifestyle.

Congrats on your acceptance(s), by the way!

I'm at a graded school. And sometimes I wish I wasn't. The reason is above, many people need an ego boost of doing better than others and these people are annoying (something lacking in their life since they need to be differentiated from others...). They ask people what grades they got or constantly talk about grades, somehow thinking that a few percentage points of minutia on a multiple choice means something. Not quite sure how PhD trivia equates to being a better clinician.

Then again, PDs realize this and unless you're in AOA its all for nothing.

Great quote:

Pride is essentially competitive—is *competitive by its very nature—while the other vices are competitive only, so to speak, by accident. *Pride gets no pleasure out of having something, only out of having more of it than the next man. *We say that people are proud of being rich, or clever, or good-looking, but they are not. They are *proud of being richer, or cleverer, or better-looking than others. If every one else became equally *rich, or clever, or good-looking there would be nothing to be proud about. It is the comparison *that makes you proud: the pleasure of being above the rest.

 

[GadRads]

this. I've had faculty tell me that the "dirty little secret" of med school is that the first two years of grades really don't count for squat so long as you pass, and really are just foundation for Step 1, which counts a great deal, and your third year core rotation evaluations (evaluations more than grades), which also count.

I have heard this a lot.

 

[deleted413795]

I'm at a graded school. And sometimes I wish I wasn't. The reason is above, many people need an ego boost of doing better than others and these people are annoying (something lacking in their life since they need to be differentiated from others...). They ask people what grades they got or constantly talk about grades, somehow thinking that a few percentage points of minutia on a multiple choice means something. Not quite sure how PhD trivia equates to being a better clinician..

Well, for me it has nothing to do with an ego boost. I do know the type of students you are talking about, and my class has plenty, which is why I avoid studying in our library and being around the school most of the time. Those folks tend to just linger around there waiting for someone to talk about such things.

That is why I have always been against curving also. I think it is an awful practice because it is a lie to both students and anyone using those grades for evaluation. I would want the doctor who actually learned his material well and earned a real A, not one who learned 75%, but because he was better than everyone else got his grade equated to an A.

I work hard because I want to do well and learn as much as I can. In my opinion hard work should be recognized. It has nothing to do with how anyone else did. I just think if you graded on a set 90-80-70-60 scale akin to A-B-C-D-F that it would make more sense. I do not live to get a grade, but we can both agree there is a large difference in comprehension of material between a B and a D-, which P/F equates as the same thing.

There is nothing wrong with being proud of your legitimately earned accomplishments or thinking they should be adequately recognized on transcripts where they may make a difference (albeit potentially a small one). I would agree that pride for pride's sake is not good, just as competition for competition's sake would not be good either. What I was trying to convey did not stem from that, and I do not agree that pride is always evil.

 

[FIREitUP]

Well, for me it has nothing to do with an ego boost. I do know the type of students you are talking about, and my class has plenty, which is why I avoid studying in our library and being around the school most of the time. Those folks tend to just linger around there waiting for someone to talk about such things.

That is why I have always been against curving also. I think it is an awful practice because it is a lie to both students and anyone using those grades for evaluation. I would want the doctor who actually learned his material well and earned a real A, not one who learned 75%, but because he was better than everyone else got his grade equated to an A.

I work hard because I want to do well and learn as much as I can. In my opinion hard work should be recognized. It has nothing to do with how anyone else did. I just think if you graded on a set 90-80-70-60 scale akin to A-B-C-D-F that it would make more sense. I do not live to get a grade, but we can both agree there is a large difference in comprehension of material between a B and a D-, which P/F equates as the same thing.

There is nothing wrong with being proud of your legitimately earned accomplishments or thinking they should be adequately recognized on transcripts where they may make a difference (albeit potentially a small one). I would agree that pride for pride's sake is not good, just as competition for competition's sake would not be good either. What I was trying to convey did not stem from that, and I do not agree that pride is always evil.

I felt this way last year. After MS2 started I realized that learning from my classes was actually causing me to have a deficient knowledge-base because of how the information was presented by PhD's or what was emphasized by the PhD's (too much research, not enough clinical). MD's are equally bad because of their poor understanding of basic science and inability to convey pathogenesis. They also seem to love having >100 slides on their powerpoints, mostly consisting of a picture and several words.

 

[MedPR]

How dumb would it be to cancel an interview because:

1. The school isn't P/F and I realize now that I want P/F.
2. I'm tired of interviewing

 

[deleted413795]

Do you already have an acceptance or acceptances, one of which is for a school you would be happy attending? If so, I don't really see why not.

That being said, I would say why not go? You may actually really like the school more than you think. Unless of course it is going to cost you hundreds of dollars. I only applied to schools within driving distance of where I lived, so I did not have to worry about flights and whatnot. I was fortunate to have 10+ schools within a 5 hour radius.

If you have no acceptances yet, I would not take the chance.

 

[MedPR]

Do you already have an acceptance or acceptances, one of which is for a school you would be happy attending? If so, I don't really see why not.

That being said, I would say why not go? You may actually really like the school more than you think. Unless of course it is going to cost you hundreds of dollars. I only applied to schools within driving distance of where I lived, so I did not have to worry about flights and whatnot. I was fortunate to have 10+ schools within a 5 hour radius.

If you have no acceptances yet, I would not take the chance.

Yea I have an acceptance at a school I'd be happy at. I've already bought my plane ticket, but it's refundable if I cancel before Monday.

The only reason I'm considering going is because I've heard good things about the school, the location, and because the school is ranked pretty well. Top 40ish and I'm a borderline applicant.

 

[VivaLaVida]

Our dean sent us all a pretend copy of "Jane Doe's" MSPE note. I suggest you ask your school what is included in it, how they report class rank and pre-clinical grades. It really changed my perspective on the importance of pre-clinical grades (aka...they don't matter)

 

[MCAT guy]

Yea I have an acceptance at a school I'd be happy at. I've already bought my plane ticket, but it's refundable if I cancel before Monday.

The only reason I'm considering going is because I've heard good things about the school, the location, and because the school is ranked pretty well. Top 40ish and I'm a borderline applicant.

Med school rank only matters if you're top 10... I would say a top 40 is prob better than a school in the bottom 20% but don't think top 40 is any different from most of the med schools.

Look at fit, finances, and I would say curriculum and how much mandatory stuff there is (hint: mandatory = bad). Dont think that moving up 20 or 30 rank spots nationally matters UNLESS you're moving into a top 10. I guess the only exception would be if you're a researcher. Then maybe a top 40 is better than schools ranked substantially lower.

 

[MedPR]

Med school rank only matters if you're top 10... I would say a top 40 is prob better than a school in the bottom 20% but don't think top 40 is any different from most of the med schools.

Look at fit, finances, and I would say curriculum and how much mandatory stuff there is (hint: mandatory = bad). Dont think that moving up 20 or 30 rank spots nationally matters UNLESS you're moving into a top 10. I guess the only exception would be if you're a researcher. Then maybe a top 40 is better than schools ranked substantially lower.

Well, the school I've been accepted to is unranked.

 

[deleted413795]

Med school rank only matters if you're top 10... I would say a top 40 is prob better than a school in the bottom 20% but don't think top 40 is any different from most of the med schools.

Look at fit, finances, and I would say curriculum and how much mandatory stuff there is (hint: mandatory = bad). Dont think that moving up 20 or 30 rank spots nationally matters UNLESS you're moving into a top 10. I guess the only exception would be if you're a researcher. Then maybe a top 40 is better than schools ranked substantially lower.

This is the general impression I have gotten also. I ended up choosing my state school for pretty much all the reasons MCAT guy mentions (fit, finances, curriculum). I have pretty much no interest in research or academic medicine of any kind though, so that makes a big difference. I am just interested in practicing, and maybe eventually doing an MBA to transition to that side of medicine.

Well, the school I've been accepted to is unranked.

That would kind of worry me, although I do not know how valid that worry is. Perhaps one of the other folks, like MCAT guy, Law2Doc, etc. would have some better thoughts towards this.

 

[MedPR]

This is the general impression I have gotten also. I ended up choosing my state school for pretty much all the reasons MCAT guy mentions (fit, finances, curriculum). I have pretty much no interest in research or academic medicine of any kind though, so that makes a big difference. I am just interested in practicing, and maybe eventually doing an MBA to transition to that side of medicine.



That would kind of worry me, although I do not know how valid that worry is. Perhaps one of the other folks, like MCAT guy, Law2Doc, etc. would have some better thoughts towards this.

Well, aren't most schools unranked? 😕

 

[deleted413795]

I honestly don't know. My biggest concern would be if it is a brand new school. If it is a school with a good reputation that just chooses to not take part in those US News rankings and whatnot, that is a different story.

 

[Sophocles]

Last year there was about 149 schools and 86 of them were ranked. This year, a few schools opened up, so I would say about half of the schools (this includes D.O. schools) are actually ranked.

I only checked the research not the primary care rankings; could be different.

 

[MedPR]

I honestly don't know. My biggest concern would be if it is a brand new school. If it is a school with a good reputation that just chooses to not take part in those US News rankings and whatnot, that is a different story.

As far as I know they have a good rep .

Last year there was about 149 schools and 86 of them were ranked. This year, a few schools opened up, so I would say about half of the schools (this includes D.O. schools) are actually ranked.

I only checked the research not the primary care rankings; could be different.

Well hopefully I'll get into one of the ranked schools I interviewed at 🙂

 

[Dr Yiot]

i really wish my school was P/F. would be so much less stressfull.

i cant tell you how annoying gunners are. i mean sometimes they just blatently ask you what you got on your exam. so obnoxious.

 

[rocketbooster]

Despite what misinformation ppl are saying here about preclinical grades not mattering, that is absolutely not true. A H/HP/P system is actually better because it motivates you to study more. There's nothing wrong with a little competition between classmates. Real grades -> more motivation to study material and do well -> better prep for Step 1.

Yes there's some garbage mixed in that's not necessary for Step 1, but learning both the overall concepts and small details helps the most in the long run on both Step 1 and clinical years. Take First Aid for example for Step 1...it's only a good review book while a horrible book to teach you material for the first time. It's only useful if you've already learned the material once before in extreme detail from your classes. You'll learn it better in classes when you're more motivated to shoot for certain grade cutoffs.

And while grades certainly are of lesser importance than Step 1, they are still a factor in residency. If you want to get into ortho, then a high Step 1 will suffice. If you want to get into a top 10 ortho program, then you'll need a high GPA (=AOA) as well. Most of AOA is determined by your M1+M2 performance. Just keep that in mind. For me, I just wanted to be competitive for any field and am less concerned about getting into a top program in a super competitive residency. I worked hard during the 1st 2 years but wasn't too hard on myself when I missed Honoring occasionally since Step 1 was the most important thing for me. I did well enough on Step 1 that it should make me competitive to at least get into any field while also maintaining a pretty good GPA, yet definitely will not be AOA. I'm good with that, but if you are a super gunner that not only wants to get into a very competitive residency but also the #1 program, then grades definitely matter.

 

[MedPR]

Despite what misinformation ppl are saying here about preclinical grades not mattering, that is absolutely not true. A H/HP/P system is actually better because it motivates you to study more. There's nothing wrong with a little competition between classmates. Real grades -> more motivation to study material and do well -> better prep for Step 1.

Yes there's some garbage mixed in that's not necessary for Step 1, but learning both the overall concepts and small details helps the most in the long run on both Step 1 and clinical years. Take First Aid for example for Step 1...it's only a good review book while a horrible book to teach you material for the first time. It's only useful if you've already learned the material once before in extreme detail from your classes. You'll learn it better in classes when you're more motivated to shoot for certain grade cutoffs.

And while grades certainly are of lesser importance than Step 1, they are still a factor in residency. If you want to get into ortho, then a high Step 1 will suffice. If you want to get into a top 10 ortho program, then you'll need a high GPA (=AOA) as well. Most of AOA is determined by your M1+M2 performance. Just keep that in mind. For me, I just wanted to be competitive for any field and am less concerned about getting into a top program in a super competitive residency. I worked hard during the 1st 2 years but wasn't too hard on myself when I missed Honoring occasionally since Step 1 was the most important thing for me. I did well enough on Step 1 that it should make me competitive to at least get into any field while also maintaining a pretty good GPA, yet definitely will not be AOA. I'm good with that, but if you are a super gunner that not only wants to get into a very competitive residency but also the #1 program, then grades definitely matter.

Are you saying that nobody at top programs went to a P/F school?

 

[Barcu]

I think it's pretty hard to determine what is "minutiae" and what isn't. You never know when what will pop up again, and I don't know that we can evaluate whether it is pointless or not as pre-clinical students. The review books don't encompass everything, so the fact it isn't in there doesn't mean that it isn't important. They focus on the most high-yield topics.

More importantly, I think we tend to overstate the ability to "just pass" and then prepare for Step 1. I know it is possible. But I doubt most med students can just pass and then rock Step 1.

Grades don't need to be the motivating factor. However, I believe that they help you stay on top of the material, and while some extra stuff may be there, I think the main topics will be covered so they come back when you review them for board studying. I'm sure it varies somewhat between schools. Maybe my school is good, but I have heard from every M3 and M4 that doing well second year is the key to good step prep. I haven't heard too many people say that just passing and doing your own step prep will help you do better. There is a correlation (and I"m sure it's true at all schools) between grades and Step 1 scores. Sure, some of it has to do with the type of student and not just doing well in classes. However, I think it's a bit risky to just dismiss grades and then say you can prepare for boards on your own.

 

[chronicidal]

Despite what misinformation ppl are saying here about preclinical grades not mattering, that is absolutely not true. A H/HP/P system is actually better because it motivates you to study more. There's nothing wrong with a little competition between classmates. Real grades -> more motivation to study material and do well -> better prep for Step 1.

Yes there's some garbage mixed in that's not necessary for Step 1, but learning both the overall concepts and small details helps the most in the long run on both Step 1 and clinical years. Take First Aid for example for Step 1...it's only a good review book while a horrible book to teach you material for the first time. It's only useful if you've already learned the material once before in extreme detail from your classes. You'll learn it better in classes when you're more motivated to shoot for certain grade cutoffs.

And while grades certainly are of lesser importance than Step 1, they are still a factor in residency. If you want to get into ortho, then a high Step 1 will suffice. If you want to get into a top 10 ortho program, then you'll need a high GPA (=AOA) as well. Most of AOA is determined by your M1+M2 performance. Just keep that in mind. For me, I just wanted to be competitive for any field and am less concerned about getting into a top program in a super competitive residency. I worked hard during the 1st 2 years but wasn't too hard on myself when I missed Honoring occasionally since Step 1 was the most important thing for me. I did well enough on Step 1 that it should make me competitive to at least get into any field while also maintaining a pretty good GPA, yet definitely will not be AOA. I'm good with that, but if you are a super gunner that not only wants to get into a very competitive residency but also the #1 program, then grades definitely matter.

You assert that learning trivia plus high-yield concepts is more efficient than just learning high-yield concepts. I disagree. Today, I learned through an old exam in biochem class that adapter proteins mediating receptor internalization requires PI(4,5) phosphatidylinositol, p21 is redundant with p27 and p57, intermediate filaments are not polar, and that the RGD integrin-binding sequence was found first in fibronectin. Please tell me how any of these could either show up on Step 1 or be clinically relevant. This is the stuff I would have to memorize in order to get honors.

You assert that most of AOA is determined by preclinical grades. False. At pass/fail schools, it is not. Schools like yours hurt people like you who might do well on Step 1 but didn't honor in every preclinical course. You won't get AOA because of the way your school does its grading.

 

[Nymphicus]

You assert that learning trivia plus high-yield concepts is more efficient than just learning high-yield concepts. I disagree. Today, I learned through an old exam in biochem class that adapter proteins mediating receptor internalization requires PI(4,5) phosphatidylinositol, p21 is redundant with p27 and p57, intermediate filaments are not polar, and that the RGD integrin-binding sequence was found first in fibronectin. Please tell me how any of these could either show up on Step 1 or be clinically relevant. This is the stuff I would have to memorize in order to get honors.

You assert that most of AOA is determined by preclinical grades. False. At pass/fail schools, it is not. Schools like yours hurt people like you who might do well on Step 1 but didn't honor in every preclinical course. You won't get AOA because of the way your school does its grading.

👍 I agree.

 

[chronicidal]

More importantly, I think we tend to overstate the ability to "just pass" and then prepare for Step 1. I know it is possible. But I doubt most med students can just pass and then rock Step 1.

What would you guess is the r^2 on the correlation between Step 1 score and preclinical grades?

 

[GadRads]

You assert that learning trivia plus high-yield concepts is more efficient than just learning high-yield concepts. I disagree. Today, I learned through an old exam in biochem class that adapter proteins mediating receptor internalization requires PI(4,5) phosphatidylinositol, p21 is redundant with p27 and p57, intermediate filaments are not polar, and that the RGD integrin-binding sequence was found first in fibronectin. Please tell me how any of these could either show up on Step 1 or be clinically relevant. This is the stuff I would have to memorize in order to get honors.

You assert that most of AOA is determined by preclinical grades. False. At pass/fail schools, it is not. Schools like yours hurt people like you who might do well on Step 1 but didn't honor in every preclinical course. You won't get AOA because of the way your school does its grading.

Word 👍

 

[GadRads]

This is a general question. How much of Step 1 is memorization vs conceptual understanding and critical/logical reasoning?

 

[Barcu]

What would you guess is the r^2 on the correlation between Step 1 score and preclinical grades?

No idea. I just know that at my school, doing well second year is touted as a better way to go than just passing and doing board prep. Maybe my school is unique in that regard. The implementation of a new curriculum boosted our step scores. I also think the student matters. The extra motivation from classes help, and I believe learning too much and then focusing on the important stuff is both more effective and easier than trying to figure out what is important and not. Review books cover high yield material in short, dense summaries. I think it's easier to understand it with a broader context and more details.

I admit, first year has a fair amount of worthless facts. However, I'm not so convinced that is the case second year.

 

[NickNaylor]

I admit, first year has a fair amount of worthless facts. However, I'm not so convinced that is the case second year.

I would agree that second year isn't as bad, but there's still a fair amount of trivia that isn't mentioned in any pathophys review text but is still taught in lecture.

 

[tco]

I would agree that second year isn't as bad, but there's still a fair amount of trivia that isn't mentioned in any pathophys review text but is still taught in lecture.

We only have to know what our patients need us to know.

Most of the trivia is not necessary for us to know long-term. If, in 15 years, you have a sick patient and say, "That sounds like a glycogen storage disease..." Then run to the nearest computer and look it up and it is one, and you make the correct consult, that lesson has been successful.

 

[rocketbooster]

Are you saying that nobody at top programs went to a P/F school?

My understanding, from reading many posts on here, is that even P/F schools have internal ranking of their students based on their performance of the first 2 years. I'm not sure how they rank them, but they must either do it based on raw percentages or maybe they automatically convert them into a H/HP/P format just for AOA purposes IDK. Anyways, I don't know the process of ranking at those schools, but I've definitely seen many ppl on here at P/F schools say that in the end their school's computer system was ranking them along and this was used for AOA.

 

[NickNaylor]

My understanding, from reading many posts on here, is that even P/F schools have internal ranking of their students based on their performance of the first 2 years. I'm not sure how they rank them, but they must either do it based on raw percentages or maybe they automatically convert them into a H/HP/P format just for AOA purposes IDK. Anyways, I don't know the process of ranking at those schools, but I've definitely seen many ppl on here at P/F schools say that in the end their school's computer system was ranking them along and this was used for AOA.

No, this is not always the case. Yes, there are some schools that are P/F but do internally rank (this likely goes into AOA decisions and the MSPE). However, there are some schools that are P/F and not internally ranked. AOA is determined based on step 1 performance, MS3 grades, and other more "subjective" criteria. Basically anything but pre-clinical grades.

 

[rocketbooster]

No, this is not always the case. Yes, there are some schools that are P/F but do internally rank (this likely goes into AOA decisions and the MSPE). However, there are some schools that are P/F and not internally ranked. AOA is determined based on step 1 performance, MS3 grades, and other more "subjective" criteria. Basically anything but pre-clinical grades.

Well at those schools then, they are screwed even more from getting AOA. Step 1 performance is objective but MS3 grades being a huge factor without MS1+2 grades is terrible. At least the grading for MS1+2 is waaaaay more objective than MS3 grades. You don't have a lot of say over MS3 grades, but if you had a 4.0 from the first 2 years then at least you have those grades to help you maintain a higher GPA for AOA nomination.

 

[FIREitUP]

Well at those schools then, they are screwed even more from getting AOA. Step 1 performance is objective but MS3 grades being a huge factor without MS1+2 grades is terrible. At least the grading for MS1+2 is waaaaay more objective than MS3 grades. You don't have a lot of say over MS3 grades, but if you had a 4.0 from the first 2 years then at least you have those grades to help you maintain a higher GPA for AOA nomination.

MS1/2 grades may be more objective, but what exactly are they assessing? Does the fact that certain individuals can palate regurgitating minutiae facts from poorly taught lectures on examinations make them better candidates for residency positions? I would put more faith in a grade that is based on someone's performance in a clinical setting (subjective or not), because it is a better indicator of the caliber of physician that person would be. I have seen the most inept individuals do well on basic science exams, and I would gladly jump in front of traffic than have a loved one be treated by them.

 

[chronicidal]

Well at those schools then, they are screwed even more from getting AOA. Step 1 performance is objective but MS3 grades being a huge factor without MS1+2 grades is terrible. At least the grading for MS1+2 is waaaaay more objective than MS3 grades. You don't have a lot of say over MS3 grades, but if you had a 4.0 from the first 2 years then at least you have those grades to help you maintain a higher GPA for AOA nomination.

Students are uncomfortable having behavioral evaluations be so important when they've been used to book knowledge assessments for their whole academic life. However, highly valuing clerkship grades is the reality of the preferences of residency directors. See the national nrmp pd survey

 

[NickNaylor]

Well at those schools then, they are screwed even more from getting AOA. Step 1 performance is objective but MS3 grades being a huge factor without MS1+2 grades is terrible. At least the grading for MS1+2 is waaaaay more objective than MS3 grades. You don't have a lot of say over MS3 grades, but if you had a 4.0 from the first 2 years then at least you have those grades to help you maintain a higher GPA for AOA nomination.

Oh yeah? Is that how it works? My fate is sealed as soon as I'm assigned a team?

Please. I get that grading is subjective, and I've read the anecdotes about clerkship grades being unfairly awarded, but I think "you don't have a lot of say over MS3 grades" is probably a bit hyperbolic.

 

[MedBound1]

Oh yeah? Is that how it works? My fate is sealed as soon as I'm assigned a team?

Please. I get that grading is subjective, and I've read the anecdotes about clerkship grades being unfairly awarded, but I think "you don't have a lot of say over MS3 grades" is probably a bit hyperbolic.

Agree completely. Sure, you can pick out that one example from your med school or undergrad where there was a hardhead professor that just 'never gave A's no matter what', but come on, you definitely have 90%+ of control over what your M3 grades are gonna be.

 

[KnuxNole]

i really wish my school was P/F. would be so much less stressfull.

i cant tell you how annoying gunners are. i mean sometimes they just blatently ask you what you got on your exam. so obnoxious.

In undergrad, I would just say "I did alright." and end it like that. Sadly, few people in med school have the undergrad mentality of trying to fight for every point, and comparing to others. This isn't an intense competition. It's med school

If you want intense competition, run an ironman.

 

[MCAT guy]

Oh yeah? Is that how it works? My fate is sealed as soon as I'm assigned a team?

Please. I get that grading is subjective, and I've read the anecdotes about clerkship grades being unfairly awarded, but I think "you don't have a lot of say over MS3 grades" is probably a bit hyperbolic.

Agreed. I think its a little of both. Some people are naturally more likeable, good looking and/or personable. That goes a long way if all else is equal. On the otherside, some people are naturally arrogant and unlikeable . With that said, I believe MOST of your grade is determined by your attitude, skills and work ethic.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Well at those schools then, they are screwed even more from getting AOA. Step 1 performance is objective but MS3 grades being a huge factor without MS1+2 grades is terrible. At least the grading for MS1+2 is waaaaay more objective than MS3 grades. You don't have a lot of say over MS3 grades, but if you had a 4.0 from the first 2 years then at least you have those grades to help you maintain a higher GPA for AOA nomination.

Yeah, I don't buy this at all. Yes, we all have that one rotation where we got screwed by that one team who just didn't like you, but by and large I feel that grades correlate to a reasonable degree with the student's work ethic, enthusiasm, and ability. Plus there's still a shelf exam at the end, and you're not going to get the grade you're hoping for if you don't study like you should; similarly if you're not studying and keep not knowing things on rounds, that will be reflected in your subjective evaluations as well.

MS1+2 grades can't be objective because since every school has a different system, it no longer means anything. If you're gunning for AOA then sure, knock yourself out, and obviously no matter what you do you need to give yourself a strong enough knowledge base to do well on Step 1 and on rotations, but in and of themselves they don't say much about what kind of resident you're going to be, and I'm glad that PDs recognize that they're just not that important.

 

[alpinism]

Yeah, I don't buy this at all. Yes, we all have that one rotation where we got screwed by that one team who just didn't like you, but by and large I feel that grades correlate to a reasonable degree with the student's work ethic, enthusiasm, and ability. Plus there's still a shelf exam at the end, and you're not going to get the grade you're hoping for if you don't study like you should; similarly if you're not studying and keep not knowing things on rounds, that will be reflected in your subjective evaluations as well.

MS1+2 grades can't be objective because since every school has a different system, it no longer means anything. If you're gunning for AOA then sure, knock yourself out, and obviously no matter what you do you need to give yourself a strong enough knowledge base to do well on Step 1 and on rotations, but in and of themselves they don't say much about what kind of resident you're going to be, and I'm glad that PDs recognize that they're just not that important.

Agreed.

By far and large, clinical grades are a solid reflection of the work and effort you put into a rotation. Yes of course there are always stories of how someone got screwed over for various reasons (cap on number of As per rotation, abusive residents, other students kissing ass, you're not going into this field so I can't give you an A, etc...) but, these cases are few and far between and not the norm.

3rd year tests your ability to apply the material you learned in the 1st 2 years. What good is it to get 100% on every exam if you can't use that information to treat patients effectively.

As a PD, do you really want a resident who got all A's M1 and M2 but who bombed 3rd year and got poor evals b/c the student "can't handle working under pressure" or "can't think on their feet" or "is not a team player" or "can't prioritize and multitask" or "hates sick people and doesn't care about their patients" or all the above?

Would you what them as your physician?

In a nutshell, 3rd year grades/evals are so much more important than M1/2 grades b/c they evaluate who will be a better clinician not a better student.

(Besides the fact that every school teaches and grades the 1st 2 yrs differently, as others have said)

 

[Pattycake25]

This is a general question. How much of Step 1 is memorization vs conceptual understanding and critical/logical reasoning?

Bump, would like to see this question answered. It sounds like the only details that we need to know are the ones that are directly involved in pathology, which makes a lot of sense for a test taken by future doctors. =P Is this correct?

 

[NickNaylor]

Bump, would like to see this question answered. It sounds like the only details that we need to know are the ones that are directly involved in pathology, which makes a lot of sense for a test taken by future doctors. =P Is this correct?

It seems to be much more memorization than critical thinking. There was a poster in a pre-allo thread that said that while the MCAT is 70% critical thinking/30% memorization, step 1 is the opposite. Not sure how true it is but it makes sense based off of the practice questions I've been doing. Some of the basic physio questions require thinking more than anything else. But an overwhelming majority of the questions seem to require recall of random facts in order to know the answer to a question. Otherwise you're left with a complete guess or a choice between two options.

 

[anonymitas]

Bump, would like to see this question answered. It sounds like the only details that we need to know are the ones that are directly involved in pathology, which makes a lot of sense for a test taken by future doctors. =P Is this correct?

Things related to pathology will be the most high yield but I don't think only details related to pathology will be tested. There are certainly many questions in UWorld where the stem starts out clinical (50 yo pt has a fever...) and then takes a wild tangent to something non-clinical (what kinds of bonds break when DNA denatures?).

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

Bump, would like to see this question answered. It sounds like the only details that we need to know are the ones that are directly involved in pathology, which makes a lot of sense for a test taken by future doctors. =P Is this correct?

If it's going to be anything like the questions I've seen on qbanks so far, it's going to involve a fair bit of memorization + applying them, not just simple memorize and regurgitate (though there are a decent number of questions that are like that as well). There seems to be a good amount of integration of multiple subjects required to answer questions successfully and consistently.