assos

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if the topic has been raised previously, please forgive me.

i went to med school, did my internship and am currently specializing in a field in europe. from the posts on this forum, (it naturally seems to be mainly visited by americans), i get the impression that there are vast differences when it comes to requirements an md must match when applying to a certain field/institution for a residency. it is not the existence of requirements itself that amazes me, its more the fact that specialties that are generally considered "easier" from a purely intellectual point of view, so to speak, seem to require the highest scores in the us. please dont take this the wrong way, im not looking for a flame war of any kind, im simpy stating a fact. i appreciate the dedication and hard work of a neurosurgeon, orthopod, general surgeon, etc., but looking at it objectively, we ARE talking manual labour here - no matter how you put it.

im convinced that the medical field in general, is not very intellectually challenging; it involves memorizing and following algorithms based on statistical data pretty much all the way. yet, there are certain specialties in which one is somewhat less prone to be a slave of predefined restrictions, notably psychiatry. the explanations is rather obvious: whenever were faced with a well defined problem - and this is by no means restricted to the world of medicine - were likely to have well defined solutions as well. a well defined solution always seems to involve tedious work, based on... algorithms. doesnt it discourage you guys, that all you have to do is memorize knowledge, and not have to contribue anything by yourselves when performing your job? ofcourse im well aware that "contribution" is just as ill defined as "hard" and "easy". but im not talking about "contribution" in the sense of excising a tumor in a 15 year old and knowing that youve given that person the opportunity to lead a normal life; neither am i talking about performing surgery on that 60 year old alcoholic that came in at 3 am with a gcs of 10 after a motor vehicle accident, and giving him a few more years on this planet. im talking about being able to utilize that gray matter of yours, and in fact create something.

again, i cannot stress it enough: this is NOT meant to be a nidus for a flame war/is not meant to be derogatory in any way. when i want be derogatory, and i can be, everyone will unmistakingly notice it ; )
 

mpp

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doesnt it discourage you guys, that all you have to do is memorize knowledge, and not have to contribue anything by yourselves when performing your job?
No. It is not discouraging. The algorithms help determine what to do but not how to do it. I think this is the same for all medical specialties. There is always some craft to it and many ways to skin a cat.

The whole purpose of algorithms and protocols in any field in medicine is to advance it. Difficult problems become easy problems and then become routine problems to solve by algorithm. The creativity comes in turning the difficult problem into a routine one.

You may think psychiatry is somehow more "creative" but it's just a field in which diagnoses are based on rigid rules written by committee and changed every few years and in which most therapies involve trial and error. I would argue that psychiatry has more "pre-defined restrictions" than any other field in it's use of requiring subjective measures to assign poorly defined diagnoses. It is no more or less creative than any other field in medicine...just a lot more boring to me...
 

psychmom1

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assos said:
if the topic has been raised previously, please forgive me.

i went to med school, did my internship and am currently specializing in a field in europe. from the posts on this forum, (it naturally seems to be mainly visited by americans), i get the impression that there are vast differences when it comes to requirements an md must match when applying to a certain field/institution for a residency. it is not the existence of requirements itself that amazes me, its more the fact that specialties that are generally considered "easier" from a purely intellectual point of view, so to speak, seem to require the highest scores in the us. please dont take this the wrong way, im not looking for a flame war of any kind, im simpy stating a fact. i appreciate the dedication and hard work of a neurosurgeon, orthopod, general surgeon, etc., but looking at it objectively, we ARE talking manual labour here - no matter how you put it.

im convinced that the medical field in general, is not very intellectually challenging; it involves memorizing and following algorithms based on statistical data pretty much all the way. yet, there are certain specialties in which one is somewhat less prone to be a slave of predefined restrictions, notably psychiatry. the explanations is rather obvious: whenever were faced with a well defined problem - and this is by no means restricted to the world of medicine - were likely to have well defined solutions as well. a well defined solution always seems to involve tedious work, based on... algorithms. doesnt it discourage you guys, that all you have to do is memorize knowledge, and not have to contribue anything by yourselves when performing your job? ofcourse im well aware that "contribution" is just as ill defined as "hard" and "easy". but im not talking about "contribution" in the sense of excising a tumor in a 15 year old and knowing that youve given that person the opportunity to lead a normal life; neither am i talking about performing surgery on that 60 year old alcoholic that came in at 3 am with a gcs of 10 after a motor vehicle accident, and giving him a few more years on this planet. im talking about being able to utilize that gray matter of yours, and in fact create something.

again, i cannot stress it enough: this is NOT meant to be a nidus for a flame war/is not meant to be derogatory in any way. when i want be derogatory, and i can be, everyone will unmistakingly notice it ; )
What is it about the US and LIFE that you hate so much? Did your mother take the breast away too soon? Oh, silly me with those Freudian views! Although I've never had my IQ tested (from that boring mental health field), I would hope to score in the 130's and not be so "boring" and "unoriginal"! Wish me luck :D Oh yeah, why don't you check your own spelling and English grammar before you go and criticize someone else for it, THANKS :p
 
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H_Caulfield

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hmm. yea. I think I've just "unmistakingly" noticed an attempt at justifying one's own choosing of one of the most forgiving and laid-back fields in medicine.... by attacking the field that's the epitome of the opposite.

Why not head over to the psychiatry thread, where there are a lot of OTHER people trying to convince themselves that they haven't taken an easy way out? Try that; you'll feel better, I think.
 

Debridement

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assos said:
i appreciate the dedication and hard work of a neurosurgeon, orthopod, general surgeon, etc., but looking at it objectively, we ARE talking manual labour here - no matter how you put it.
You speak from ignorance and clearly have never taken care of a critically ill or injured patient.

I bet you have never tried to reconstruct an open intra-articular supracondylar femur fracture in a 15 year old or manage a 25 year old trauma patient slipping into multi-organ failure. I have done both and assure you that it was not just 'manual labour'.

Neither of those are 'cookie cutter' cases and both require a great deal of 'grey matter' in knowledge, decision making and interpersonals skills.
Sure, maybe nailing a simple femur fracture is 'manual labor' but very few cases are simple and straighforward. Also, we are thinking about the best way to approach whatever we are getting to and making pre and post-op decisions to maximize outcome. It's not like mowing grass or pouring concrete for an outhouse.

If you think that what we do as surgeons (I am ortho) is just manual labour [sic], you don't know what we are thinking about and what you are talking about.

I'm not 'flaming you'. I'm just telling you that you are a stuck up european that doesn't know what he's talking about .

Have fun in your ivory tower looking down on the US as you use our medications, devices, procedures and protocols.
 

psychmom1

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H_Caulfield said:
hmm. yea. I think I've just "unmistakingly" noticed an attempt at justifying one's own choosing of one of the most forgiving and laid-back fields in medicine.... by attacking the field that's the epitome of the opposite.

Why not head over to the psychiatry thread, where there are a lot of OTHER people trying to convince themselves that they haven't taken an easy way out? Try that; you'll feel better, I think.
Ummm, I'm going to assume you were directing your unjustified reply to me. First of all, the last thing I am doing is trying to "justify" anything or any field. I have the utmost respect for any field in medicine thank you! I do not and will not attack or disrespect any medical field. How any medical field or position is "the easy way out" as you claim is humorous. It is "unmistakably" obvious that you are very insecure with your confidence and regard toward medicine considering you will degrade a medical field for any given reason. I ask you this, what was you draw towards medicine? Any field impaticular? I have no reason to convince myself of anything. Do you? I WILL do what I love PERIOD! Not b/c I will become famous, noticed, popular, secure, important, or liked! I will pursue my passion and interests b/c I want too!
The person I had originally replied too is a troll and maybe you should read up before you go defending someone who is racist when it comes to medicine! ;)
 

H_Caulfield

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psychmom1 said:
Ummm, I'm going to assume you were directing your unjustified reply to me. First of all, the last thing I am doing is trying to "justify" anything or any field. I have the utmost respect for any field in medicine thank you! I do not and will not attack or disrespect any medical field. How any medical field or position is "the easy way out" as you claim is humorous. It is "unmistakably" obvious that you are very insecure with your confidence and regard toward medicine considering you will degrade a medical field for any given reason. I ask you this, what was you draw towards medicine? Any field impaticular? I have no reason to convince myself of anything. Do you? I WILL do what I love PERIOD! Not b/c I will become famous, noticed, popular, secure, important, or liked! I will pursue my passion and interests b/c I want too!
The person I had originally replied too is a troll and maybe you should read up before you go defending someone who is racist when it comes to medicine! ;)
Nope...I was responding to the original poster. I agreed with your first response, and didn't notice that your screen name had the "psych" in it. The OP made particular honorable mention of psychiatry as the one field which isn't for brutes, and that's why I attacked it.

Sorry you got the wrong idea...
 

beastmaster

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Debridement said:
You speak from ignorance and clearly have never taken care of a critically ill or injured patient.

I bet you have never tried to reconstruct an open intra-articular supracondylar femur fracture in a 15 year old or manage a 25 year old trauma patient slipping into multi-organ failure. I have done both and assure you that it was not just 'manual labour'.

Neither of those are 'cookie cutter' cases and both require a great deal of 'grey matter' in knowledge, decision making and interpersonals skills.
Sure, maybe nailing a simple femur fracture is 'manual labor' but very few cases are simple and straighforward. Also, we are thinking about the best way to approach whatever we are getting to and making pre and post-op decisions to maximize outcome. It's not like mowing grass or pouring concrete for an outhouse.

If you think that what we do as surgeons (I am ortho) is just manual labour [sic], you don't know what we are thinking about and what you are talking about.

I'm not 'flaming you'. I'm just telling you that you are a stuck up european that doesn't know what he's talking about .

Have fun in your ivory tower looking down on the US as you use our medications, devices, procedures and protocols.
good post. I have very little experience, but it seems that at times the medical management can be formulaic with little variation, compared with advancing surgical techniques and approaches (www.or-live.com -- this is not manual labor)
 

Blake

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H_Caulfield said:
that's why I attacked it.
I don't even understand the need to attack another speciality based on some misguided comments. It's just unjustified. Regardless of whether I end up in NS or not, I just fail to see what's remotely entertaining in bashing another field. Just be happy you have less competition :D
 
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