WVUPharm2007

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Wow, so they are just now getting around to this? Welcome to 2008.

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Look, the solution is to start requiring residencies some time around 2014 or so. I used to be against them...but now I see them serving a purpose. To thin the ranks. Grandfather in everyone out there now...but at some point, something needs done.
 

joetrisman

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Wow, so they are just now getting around to this? Welcome to 2008.

---

Look, the solution is to start requiring residencies some time around 2014 or so. I used to be against them...but now I see them serving a purpose. To thin the ranks. Grandfather in everyone out there now...but at some point, something needs done.
I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but I remember reading that the ADA (which if I remember correctly presides over accreditation directly like the ACPE does) actually closed a few dental schools down when saturation hit to get to a state of equilibrium. ACPE needs to get some sense and do the same
 

WVUPharm2007

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I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but I remember reading that the ADA (which if I remember correctly presides over accreditation directly like the ACPE does) actually closed a few dental schools down when saturation hit to get to a state of equilibrium. ACPE needs to get some sense and do the same
Don't see it happening.
 

PumpkinSmasher

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Don't see it happening.
Agreed. If they close down a school, they lose a client. Required residency to get jobs outside of retail is most likely going to be the norm with or without it being officially required by some accreditation board. I see job postings at private and academic hospitals in my area but they all require PGY2 or PGY1 with few years of experience for the positions.

Speaking with PGY2s at Midyear, almost all of them seemed pretty excited with the job opportunities being presented to them.

It will be an interesting few years.
 

BMBiology

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Residency is not a solution if your friendly walgreens can open hundreds/thousands of residency position. Instead of paying a rph 120 k a year, walgreens can pay 40 k for a resident and have he/she work 60 hours a week.
 

rebith75

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This is good news, there has been grassroots complaining about new colleges and garbage distance/internet programs being detrimental to our degree (investment) for a long time, but now that apha and ashp are acknowledging the problem the ship may be righted. correct?
 

charfdorn

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Wow, so they are just now getting around to this? Welcome to 2008.

---

Look, the solution is to start requiring residencies some time around 2014 or so. I used to be against them...but now I see them serving a purpose. To thin the ranks. Grandfather in everyone out there now...but at some point, something needs done.
Requiring residencies just delays the problem... so you require residencies in 2014 and by 2018 there are more residencies than jobs. It's just another layer, not a solution.
 

Theta16

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I should not have read that damn paper the night before a test.

Anyways, it's great that official accrediting institutions are recognizing the mess they have contributed to but unfortunate that they have few solutions to this problem. They recommend analyzing the problem and continuing the discussion.

One thing I noticed was a slight contradiction in the paper. They state at the end of the goals for the organization(s) should be to ensure: "(1) a reasonable balance (currently and in the future) between the demand for and supply of practitioners."

The problem is that they clearly note there is an oversupply of (community-based) pharmacists according to the latest Aggregate Demand Index yet plan to do nothing about it. They lament the fact that many new schools are opened by for-profit institutions in the same state/cities as other non-profit schools. Then the paper goes on to note that many schools are not opened on the same campus as a health science center, and that "It would seem that the opportunities on these campuses for interdisciplinary practice and research would attract faculty in the clinical and pharmaceutical sciences as well as provide a rich training environment for students"...which was preceded by how there aren't enough IPPE sites and enough qualified faculty for all of these schools. So they should push for more schools opening in conjunction with a true health science centers so the students can have "rich" training environments before they wage war on one another in the job market...that's a great recommendation! :rolleyes:

/End of my rambling & thanks for listening
 

All4MyDaughter

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Residency is not a solution if your friendly walgreens can open hundreds/thousands of residency position. Instead of paying a rph 120 k a year, walgreens can pay 40 k for a resident and have he/she work 60 hours a week.
Who would accredit these Walgreens residencies? I think when people talk about a residency requirement, they are talking about accredited residencies.

This is good news, there has been grassroots complaining about new colleges and garbage distance/internet programs being detrimental to our degree (investment) for a long time, but now that apha and ashp are acknowledging the problem the ship may be righted. correct?
The problem is that APhA and ASHP don't have the ability to DO anything about it. I agree that acknowledging the problem is a good first step, but it will take much more than that to effect any change.

They lament the fact that many new schools are opened by for-profit institutions in the same state/cities as other non-profit schools.
This is not what they said (see page 5 of the document). The vast majority of new schools have been opened by private, non-profit schools. The issue remains the same (multiple schools in one city, no clear need for a new program) but it's NOT a "for profit" issue.

As far as I know, there are only two pharmacy school at "for profit" institutions. One is already accredited and has been around for a number of years (in other words, it's NOT a new school) and the other has candidate status and was established in a city without a pharmacy school and was only the 2nd school in that state. There may be others, but they clearly aren't the majority. I doubt they are even a substantial minority.

While I think that the rapid expansion of pharmacy schools is mostly about GREED and the need for colleges and universities to come up with new sources of revenue, it's unfair and inaccurate to lay the problem at the feet of "for profit" institutions. Non-profit schools make just as much money off of pharmacy students and are in fact the biggest contributer to the "new schools" problem.

People decry the "new schools" but the paper also makes it clear that existing schools are not innocent. Also from page 5(emphasis added):
According to the Accreditation Council for Pharmacy Education (ACPE), from 2005-08 a 36.5% increase in student enrollment was expected. Expansion at existing schools accounted for 84% of this enrollment growth.
Expansion of existing programs includes public institutions expanding their class size and the proliferation of branch campuses of existing public schools. Public schools make money from pharmacy students as well. The public COP I attended now costs about 10K per semester for 9 semesters. That's a pretty penny and doesn't include the tax revenue per student provided by the state. State institutions are subsized by government (to a degree) but still charge tuition that's on par with some private schools. They are making money too, no doubt about it.

The problem of too many seats at pharmacy schools and not enough jobs is not a "for profit" school problem. It's not a private school problem. It's not a public school problem. Schools of ALL types are to blame for seeing the potential for $$$ while ignoring the changing job market. It's a mess, and you can't single out any particular institution or type of institution to blame. That's why finding a solution is so difficult.
 

mustang sally

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I can kind of see BMBiology's point because it seemed like a similar thing happened in science. Science used to be (somewhat) of a more prestigious career than it is today, but then it got saturated. The solution? Everyone has to do a postdoc when you graduate, but many PhDs seem to get stuck in this postdoc cycle that they never get out of.

I'm not saying the same thing will happen in pharmacy. Right now it can still give you a leg up to get a residency since there are so few residency positions compared to the number of graduates. If they increase residency positions like ASHP keeps talking about, then residency might not be as helpful for career growth anymore. And let's all pray that Walgreens doesn't get to start opening residencies left and right, or we're all screwed.
 

MountainPharmD

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Look, the solution is to start requiring residencies some time around 2014 or so. I used to be against them...but now I see them serving a purpose. To thin the ranks. Grandfather in everyone out there now...but at some point, something needs done.
Naw, f-that. Everyone needs to go to med school after pharmacy school. Spend 29 years in school to work in a grocery store pharmacy and answer important questions like where is the bathroom or do you sell soap.
 

Its Z

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Clearly ACPE can't stop a school from opening, but can they put a cap on class size?
 

SomeGuy

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answer important questions like where is the bathroom or do you sell soap.
Those are really important questions..
To be absolutely honest, the proper usage of those two things probably had far more life extending and life improving effects than the majority of the drugs we've ever created.
 

Passion4Sci

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Well, I guess that does it, I'm dropping out and going to truck driving school.
 

rxlea

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I heard even truck driving school graduates can't find a job because of all the new truck driving schools that opened to accomodate the influx of dejected pre-pharmers. I recommend selling trash services. With all the wasteful spending Americans do, there will be plenty of trash to dispose of. I heard it can be quite lucrative and that bonuses are given to the employees that can sell the most trash quarterly.
 

Soonersyko

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A residency for a profession that yields mostly retail pharmacists? Are you kidding me? Let me bend over so you can find that last bit of sanity and money hanging around in my colon...jeez! One of the reasons I took up a residency is because I hated the retail environment. I couldn't even find a job as an intern (with few exceptions that didn't last long) and I still can't believe schools and organizations make pharmacists out to be professionals when all I heard was "hey garbage boy, why the hell did my copay go up from $3 to $3.50...WHERE IS YOUR MANAGER I WANT TO CHOKE YOU".
 

mustang sally

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A residency for a profession that yields mostly retail pharmacists? Are you kidding me? Let me bend over so you can find that last bit of sanity and money hanging around in my colon...jeez! One of the reasons I took up a residency is because I hated the retail environment. I couldn't even find a job as an intern (with few exceptions that didn't last long) and I still can't believe schools and organizations make pharmacists out to be professionals when all I heard was "hey garbage boy, why the hell did my copay go up from $3 to $3.50...WHERE IS YOUR MANAGER I WANT TO CHOKE YOU".
Wow, it's like you're living my life! Residency, here I come! (and please let there be less than 3,000 applicants by the time I get around to applying)
 

WVUPharm2007

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Wow, it's like you're living my life! Residency, here I come! (and please let there be less than 3,000 applicants by the time I get around to applying)
Hospital pharmacy is just as demeaning at times. Which is frequently. If you care about being respected by other healthcare professionals and the general public...well...wrong profession.
 

rxlea

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Hospital pharmacy is just as demeaning at times. Which is frequently. If you care about being respected by other healthcare professionals and the general public...well...wrong profession.
especially when nurses tell you to go back to slingin' pills cuz their med didn't get there on time even though it was sitting in the pneumatic tube for 45 minutes because they didn't check :p
 

All4MyDaughter

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especially when nurses tell you to go back to slingin' pills cuz their med didn't get there on time even though it was sitting in the pneumatic tube for 45 minutes because they didn't check :p
A nurse called the IV room three times the other day to tell us that a patient had arrived (LATE) for his outpatient chemo. It was something that we don't make until we know the patient is there and we hadn't made it b/c we thought he no-showed. I was the only one working at the time (someone was on break) and I cannot currently make chemo. The first time she called I told her that it was going to be about a half hour (not unreasonable, under the circumstances). When she called back 2X (well before a half hour had elapsed), I just pleasantly said "OK, thanks!" I don't let them get to me and if they raise their voices or become abusive, I hang up.
 

owlegrad

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especially when nurses tell you to go back to slingin' pills cuz their med didn't get there on time even though it was sitting in the pneumatic tube for 45 minutes because they didn't check :p
A nurse called the IV room three times the other day to tell us that a patient had arrived (LATE) for his outpatient chemo. It was something that we don't make until we know the patient is there and we hadn't made it b/c we thought he no-showed. I was the only one working at the time (someone was on break) and I cannot currently make chemo. The first time she called I told her that it was going to be about a half hour (not unreasonable, under the circumstances). When she called back 2X (well before a half hour had elapsed), I just pleasantly said "OK, thanks!" I don't let them get to me and if they raise their voices or become abusive, I hang up.
Yeah, nurses are great. I had one on my back awhile back about two separate issues. First the med-dispense machine was out of something and then I was late delivering an IV (it was one of those days). Anyway the second time she started getting upset by the late IV, I just told her, "yaknow, if I am ever in the hospital I want you to be my nurse". She shut up and smiled. It was pretty funny if you were there. We got along great after that.

It's kinda funny because of course I hate it when the nurses overlook something that has already been delivered or (God forbid) complain about a late delivery but really it's nice that some nurses are so on top of patient care. I would want my family to receive that level of care. I mean at my hospital (it's small) I can only think of maybe four nurses that I have worked with who stay on top of us about getting medication on time. I think it's nice (and annoying) that do. I guess the rest know we will get to it when we get to it (which is also nice, for us - :D).

I try to make it a point to thank a nurse every time one brings a problem to my attention. Machine out of medicine? Patient needs a dose of something? IV missing? "Thanks for letting me know, I will get right on that" Teamwork, patient care, etc.
 

rxlea

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A nurse called the IV room three times the other day to tell us that a patient had arrived (LATE) for his outpatient chemo. It was something that we don't make until we know the patient is there and we hadn't made it b/c we thought he no-showed. I was the only one working at the time (someone was on break) and I cannot currently make chemo. The first time she called I told her that it was going to be about a half hour (not unreasonable, under the circumstances). When she called back 2X (well before a half hour had elapsed), I just pleasantly said "OK, thanks!" I don't let them get to me and if they raise their voices or become abusive, I hang up.
Oh that's the worst. See, at the wonderful institution I work for (I am not being sarcastic, though), the patients sorta make the rules when it comes to getting outpatient infusion. Even if they are scheduled, they sometimes decide to pop in whenever- sometimes late because they decided to go to church on Sunday or early because they want to go Christmas shopping later. Typically I just :rolleyes: and make the chemo...except this one time when literally 7 patients showed up at the same time on a Saturday- decitabine, cyclophosphamide, aralast, cytarabine, ifosphamide, IVIG S/D, and I forget what else in addition to some of the pre-meds. We have one chemo hood. I was like wtf. Since I had to reconstitute them all, it took a LONG time (especially the ifos which is like rock candy). The nurses had the audacity to bitch and complain that their patients had to wait a long time. :thumbdown: I delivered the chemo myself. Apparently the nurses had been complaining in front of the patients so when I got there, the patients were glaring at me like I was a lazy fool. So, I simply said out loud, "Thank you for your patience. I had a lot to prepare and I wanted to make sure I was extra careful with my preparation because patient safety is very important to me." The patients looked relieved. The nurses looked embarrassed :smuggrin:
 

mustang sally

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Hospital pharmacy is just as demeaning at times. Which is frequently. If you care about being respected by other healthcare professionals and the general public...well...wrong profession.
That's really depressing, but I'm still hanging all my hopes on residency and/or fellowship. Let me live in my dreamworld for just a little longer. :)
 

FarscapeGirl

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Residency is not a solution if your friendly walgreens can open hundreds/thousands of residency position. Instead of paying a rph 120 k a year, walgreens can pay 40 k for a resident and have he/she work 60 hours a week.
So true. That's how it works in academic research. The people doing the work are 'in training', and so they make very little... Companies would love this turn of events.
 

R2pharmD2

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It's kinda funny because of course I hate it when the nurses overlook something that has already been delivered or (God forbid) complain about a late delivery but really it's nice that some nurses are so on top of patient care. I would want my family to receive that level of care. I mean at my hospital (it's small) I can only think of maybe four nurses that I have worked with who stay on top of us about getting medication on time. I think it's nice (and annoying) that do. I guess the rest know we will get to it when we get to it (which is also nice, for us - :D).
I was beginning to think that I was the only one who looked at it like this. At my hospital, everybody in the pharmacy gets pissy when a nurse contacts us more than once about a medication. I had a nurse yesterday call the pharmacy 4 times and send 3 med admin messages about a drip which wasn't due for another 2 hours. Was I annoyed? Yeah, a little bit. But I didn't feel the need to b**** and moan about it either. And I know which nurse I'd want taking care of me or my family member.
 

Passion4Sci

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At my hospital, the nurses just don't care enough to call.

I think I'd rather have naggy nurses calling the pharmacy every 45 minutes wondering what the status on their order is over the ambivalent "Why'd I even come to work today" types we have...
 

owlegrad

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I was beginning to think that I was the only one who looked at it like this. At my hospital, everybody in the pharmacy gets pissy when a nurse contacts us more than once about a medication. I had a nurse yesterday call the pharmacy 4 times and send 3 med admin messages about a drip which wasn't due for another 2 hours. Was I annoyed? Yeah, a little bit. But I didn't feel the need to b**** and moan about it either. And I know which nurse I'd want taking care of me or my family member.
Well that nurse has too entirely much time on her hands. :laugh:

It's kinda funny too because the techs seem to get more annoyed with the nurses than the pharmacists do. The pharmacists mostly seem to take an attitude of "I know about, I will get to it when I get to it". But the techs seem to take it as a personal insult. You can bet on hearing things like "Do they know how busy we are" or "I would like to see so-and-so come down here and try to do it any faster" etc. I just take it as someone who cares about her patients wanting to make sure they receive the best care possible.
 

confettiflyer

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Well that nurse has too entirely much time on her hands. :laugh:

It's kinda funny too because the techs seem to get more annoyed with the nurses than the pharmacists do. The pharmacists mostly seem to take an attitude of "I know about, I will get to it when I get to it". But the techs seem to take it as a personal insult. You can bet on hearing things like "Do they know how busy we are" or "I would like to see so-and-so come down here and try to do it any faster" etc. I just take it as someone who cares about her patients wanting to make sure they receive the best care possible.
I work the same way...I work as fast as I safely can and it'll get to the patient when it's done, no apologies or justification (maybe an apology if it's clearly our fault...rare, but it happens).

The nursing/pharmacy relationship is...interesting. They can be your best advocates or your mortal enemies, just be sure to pick your battles and get to know names upstairs, it usually gets better once they know who they're talking to and know they can't walk all over you (ie... you better push back or it's over for you).
 

owlegrad

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At my hospital, the nurses just don't care enough to call.

I think I'd rather have naggy nurses calling the pharmacy every 45 minutes wondering what the status on their order is over the ambivalent "Why'd I even come to work today" types we have...
While I agree with you, I feel compelled to add: Be careful what you wish for! :laugh:
 

pharm B

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rxlea

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B, I know right? Although you can say that state/public universities (and even "non profit" schools) are really there for profit, it is still troubling to think about the lengths some of these for profit schools go to, to get students into their program. My concern is with the increase of distance learning degrees (including pharmacy). I am wondering what the quality of education is like compared to in class instruction where, presumably, class discussion, interaction with peers and organization involvement, or even access to research and other EC's (like health fairs) contributes to the overall learning experience.
 

Passion4Sci

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B, I know right? Although you can say that state/public universities (and even "non profit" schools) are really there for profit, it is still troubling to think about the lengths some of these for profit schools go to, to get students into their program. My concern is with the increase of distance learning degrees (including pharmacy). I am wondering what the quality of education is like compared to in class instruction where, presumably, class discussion, interaction with peers and organization involvement, or even access to research and other EC's (like health fairs) contributes to the overall learning experience.
It's starting to feel like what my wife went through after she took the LSAT and was signed up for the LSDAS Credential Service (Law's version of PharmCAS). Within 2 weeks, every swinging dick at a law school was sending all sorts of material to her essentially begging her to go to their school.

They know that in this economy, with more people returning to school and relying heavily on too-easy-to-get financial aid, they can really rope people in. There's only a short time left for us before we're just like law.