PhD/PsyD Groups

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erg923

Regional Clinical Officer, Centene Corporation
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There is a big push (pressure almost) for "groups" in the VA healthcare system. I am feeling a push to create groups for one of my clinics, and quite frankly, there is little demand or need, IMHO.
However, my question is: Is there actually literature to support the clinical utility of these loosey goosey coping skills groups, substance use groups, etc. I really don’t see them doing much good beyond offering camaraderie and general psychological support, and maybe psychoed. In which case, having doctoral-level psychologists develop and lead them seems like a huge waste of resources? What does the lit say?
 
I don't have any information on efficacy, but I do know that our university's counseling center has been pushing groups as well. In fact, we've had some referrals to our dept clinic for students who want individual therapy and don't want to attend groups.
 
I wonder about the efficacy of the general supportive-type groups as well. On the one hand, I appreciate the comraderie and social support they can foster, but I'm also concerned if they end up fostering a situation where a patient's only sources of such support occur in the context of heading in to a clinic/hospital. After all, the ultimate goals usually include getting folks more (rather than less) involved in their home communities.

Although targeted and time-limited group interventions (e.g., for pain, PTSD, depression, insomnia) can of course be great.
 
Hey there,

Inpatient/outpatient groups are just a different form of therapy... the goals are different and while they do build comraderie, they all encourage interpersonal interactions which are sometimes problematic with certain individuals (no duh, right?). With that said, if you're looking at literature, you should start with Theory and Practice of Group Psychotherapy, Fifth Edition
Irvin D. Yalom, (2005).

Since it is older, I put into google "efficacy of group therapy" and found this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK64223/
And this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/9734538/

I enjoy running groups, having been trained in many different types of groups all during graduate school. While they may not require a licensed psychologist, I have seen the benefits of having trained individual mediate the problems that may come up in a therapeutic manner.

I would love to hear from the folks in counseling psychology doctoral programs/graduates. I suspect they may have more experience in this area in general.
 
The push from individual--> groups may just be a re-shuffling of resources trying to get my total contacts w. Veterans. I'm not sold that groups are the better way to go because they are useful as an adjunct (IMHO), not as a primary avenue for treatment.
 
Hey there,

Inpatient/outpatient groups are just a different form of therapy... the goals are different and while they do build comraderie, they all encourage interpersonal interactions which are sometimes problematic with certain individuals (no duh, right?). With that said, if you're looking at literature, you should start with Theory and Practice of Group Psychotherapy, Fifth Edition
Irvin D. Yalom, (2005).

Since it is older, I put into google "efficacy of group therapy" and found this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK64223/
And this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/9734538/

I enjoy running groups, having been trained in many different types of groups all during graduate school. While they may not require a licensed psychologist, I have seen the benefits of having trained individual mediate the problems that may come up in a therapeutic manner.

I would love to hear from the folks in counseling psychology doctoral programs/graduates. I suspect they may have more experience in this area in general.

Can I ask what you like about doing groups? lol. I have just never really ben bitten by that bug and I'm actively trying to resist this push so that I can continue to do my regular individual work. Or maybe use that time for some clinic research or something...
 
Can I ask what you like about doing groups? lol. I have just never really ben bitten by that bug and I'm actively trying to resist this push so that I can continue to do my regular individual work. Or maybe use that time for some clinic research or something...
I like balancing the needs of patients with a variety of psychopathologies in one setting. I find this challenging and interesting. I ran groups with the topics of coping skills, wellness, family issues, emotional exploration, self-esteem and music therapy (my music group was blast on the inpatient unit - I chose 2 songs, printed out the lyrics, we listened to the song as a group and extracted concepts/ideas that were relevant to each...sometimes very thought-provoking discussion came from this task). The group members decided which groups to attend (or it was suggested to them by their clinician), we set the ground rules at the beginning of each meeting, and discussed & tag teamed off of each others' comments. There were individuals who were combative but it was indicative of their pathology. For 45 minutes, I was on my toes (so to speak) encouraging engagement and tempering narratives that were too long or irrelevant or straying off-topic. Overall, the patients "did the work," and I facilitated in a way that may introduce salient issues in certain individuals who had not yet explored those issues among others (like the realism of addiction that one may identify with when hearing another's story) or bring resolution to an issue with the groups' opinion (patient reveals he can't maintain a relationship because he is "repugnant," whereas the group may voice different, more supportive opinions to counter the patient's previous thoughts...all of which are novel experiences in the identified patient's life).

There is a ton of layperson philosophy floating around in group therapy (as a clinician we sometimes want to say what we are thinking but cannot because it is not 'therapeutic' or the timing is off...however, other group members may say whatever is on their minds & it is sometimes helpful to lay it out on the table), but it is the job of the clinician to make it apply to the group in a way that confronts some issues, but becomes safe enough to be revealed to others and sometimes validated. (An example, I've had patients tell other patients that they were "rude" or "inconsiderate," and then identified patient may find this intriguing because his/her point-of-view is different, and a giant discussion ensues with the result being that those patients who shared their feelings becoming more cordial to the one behaving rudely, and the "rude" patient becomes grateful for the insight - which could end up being efficacious treatment for shorter lengths-of-stay on inpatient units, but I don't have the data to back up that statement right now...meanwhile I'm working on making sure the conversation doesn't become counterproductive with patients leaving the session with a more depleted sense of self than when he/she arrived to the group.)

These are my experience in a nutshell. Also, if you look at DBT, the skills training groups are a pretty important component. It is the opportunity to contemplate actions outside of your own experiences but in a way that can relate to similar others (or should I say those with similar psychopathologies?). And if you think about the types of personalities disorders that require DBT, half of the work is exposing these patients to others' ideas in a way that has never been received before (i.e., family members may tiptoe around these folks, but a co-member of group will say it like it is). Then, the patient has the opportunity to discuss how the group personally impacted him/her in his/her individual therapy.
 
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Also, if you look at DBT, the skills training groups are a pretty important component. It is the opportunity to contemplate actions outside of your own experiences but in a way that can relate to similar others (or should I say those with similar psychopathologies?).

Most of my group experience has been with DBT groups, and there is literature (sorry, I don't know the citation off the top of my head and I'm too lazy to find it, but it was one of Masha's students who told me about the study) to suggest that DBT group as a standalone treatment works as well as DBT grouop+individual and better than individual DBT on its own.

Whether these findings have been documented with other treatments, I don't know. Anecdotally, I think when the presenting problem is something that often makes patients feel isolated, groups can provide a helpful support network that otherwise doesn't happen. For example, I led a group for patients undergoing stem cell transplant, which was also open to their caregivers. We covered pain coping skills and a variety of quality of life enhancing skills-based stuff. I have done a ton of that stuff individually, but I saw the added value of the group because undergoing transplant is often such an isolating experience, and hearing other patients' stories was helpful. (FWIW the protocols we were using, mostly pain coping skills stuff, has been tested in individual and group formats with good success in many populations, although I don't know of any studies to compare the two formats).
 
There is a big push (pressure almost) for "groups" in the VA healthcare system. I am feeling a push to create groups for one of my clinics, and quite frankly, there is little demand or need, IMHO.
However, my question is: Is there actually literature to support the clinical utility of these loosey goosey coping skills groups, substance use groups, etc. I really don’t see them doing much good beyond offering camaraderie and general psychological support, and maybe psychoed. In which case, having doctoral-level psychologists develop and lead them seems like a huge waste of resources? What does the lit say?

As a master's level clinician, I've heard this very thing from vets coming into our clinic. However, the majority seem to value the therapeutic milieu when psychotherapeutic benefit takes precedence over cost effectiveness. The design of group should be homogeneous in respect to cognitive functioning, presenting issues, axis I, etc. This is where we are to benefit from screening as suggested by Yalom. That's an ideal that seems to get shoved to the side by management without say so from mid-level clinicians like myself. It could easily create the annoying "what will the topic be today" issue. Not that it's terribly relevant here, but I've always felt that group psychotherapy can be just as beneficial if focus is placed more so on processing and less on didactic style discussions. The literature out there is going to support idealistic group dynamics and will cover the curative factors.

Very frustrating, but powerful if you can somehow find your niche in it.
 
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Most of my group experience has been with DBT groups, and there is literature (sorry, I don't know the citation off the top of my head and I'm too lazy to find it, but it was one of Masha's students who told me about the study) to suggest that DBT group as a standalone treatment works as well as DBT grouop+individual and better than individual DBT on its own.

That's really interesting. I thought that research also indicated that skills group plus individual therapy doesn't work that well if the individual therapy is not within the DBT model.

As for DBT group, I agree that it's very important, but I wonder how much of it is the group modality versus the skills being taught. Marsha Linehan actually says that you could probably do skills training in an individual format. In fact, I've done individual skills training with clients because our groups didn't have good enough attendance.
 
I like balancing the needs of patients with a variety of psychopathologies in one setting. I find this challenging and interesting. I ran groups with the topics of coping skills, wellness, family issues, emotional exploration, self-esteem and music therapy (my music group was blast on the inpatient unit - I chose 2 songs, printed out the lyrics, we listened to the song as a group and extracted concepts/ideas that were relevant to each...sometimes very thought-provoking discussion came from this task). The group members decided which groups to attend (or it was suggested to them by their clinician), we set the ground rules at the beginning of each meeting, and discussed & tag teamed off of each others' comments. There were individuals who were combative but it was indicative of their pathology. For 45 minutes, I was on my toes (so to speak) encouraging engagement and tempering narratives that were too long or irrelevant or straying off-topic. Overall, the patients "did the work," and I facilitated in a way that may introduce salient issues in certain individuals who had not yet explored those issues among others (like the realism of addiction that one may identify with when hearing another's story) or bring resolution to an issue with the groups' opinion (patient reveals he can't maintain a relationship because he is "repugnant," whereas the group may voice different, more supportive opinions to counter the patient's previous thoughts...all of which are novel experiences in the identified patient's life).

There is a ton of layperson philosophy floating around in group therapy (as a clinician we sometimes want to say what we are thinking but cannot because it is not 'therapeutic' or the timing is off...however, other group members may say whatever is on their minds & it is sometimes helpful to lay it out on the table), but it is the job of the clinician to make it apply to the group in a way that confronts some issues, but becomes safe enough to be revealed to others and sometimes validated. (An example, I've had patients tell other patients that they were "rude" or "inconsiderate," and then identified patient may find this intriguing because his/her point-of-view is different, and a giant discussion ensues with the result being that those patients who shared their feelings becoming more cordial to the one behaving rudely, and the "rude" patient becomes grateful for the insight - which could end up being efficacious treatment for shorter lengths-of-stay on inpatient units, but I don't have the data to back up that statement right now...meanwhile I'm working on making sure the conversation doesn't become counterproductive with patients leaving the session with a more depleted sense of self than when he/she arrived to the group.)

These are my experience in a nutshell. Also, if you look at DBT, the skills training groups are a pretty important component. It is the opportunity to contemplate actions outside of your own experiences but in a way that can relate to similar others (or should I say those with similar psychopathologies?). And if you think about the types of personalities disorders that require DBT, half of the work is exposing these patients to others' ideas in a way that has never been received before (i.e., family members may tiptoe around these folks, but a co-member of group will say it like it is). Then, the patient has the opportunity to discuss how the group personally impacted him/her in his/her individual therapy.

It sounds like the groups you've conducted have been really meaningful and beneficial to everyone in attendance.
 
My take on the group literature as a whole (looked into it awhile back for a project, though its admittedly not an area of expertise) is that in most cases it seems to be at least equally efficacious compared to individual therapy and sometimes better. There are obviously exceptions both within the literature and at an individual level (e.g. certain people are just clearly not appropriate for group). However, I do think there is little support for the (in my experience relatively common) assumption that individual therapy is the ideal and other things are a compromise.

That said, I'm generally referring to outcomes from fairly rigid protocols, which are very different from how things work in the real world. I've worked in two settings (one VA, one private hospital) that ran a lot of "process groups" or as I liked to call them "How was your weekend" therapy in reference to the only thing the facilitator ever actually said. These were both substance use settings (though treatment addressed comorbidities as well). When I had to run the process groups (thankfully not often) I tried to make it into more of a problem-solving/CBT model.

So basically "actual" therapy in group formats has decent support, but just like individual therapy it is frequently done in a haphazard manner by people who haven't looked at the literature since finishing school and may or may not have proper training in the first place. The more of the "real world" of mental healthcare I see the more convinced I become the modal practice (across all disciplines) emphasizes overpriced placebos...but the good practitioners out there are worth their weight in gold.
 
Thanks for all the replies. And again, I'm talking about groups that are not formal protocols. The generic "coping skills" groups, etc. There is a "Vietnam group" here that I'm sure us helpful and all, but could probably be better lead by a trained peer support specialist as oppose to a 30 year old phd. Seems unnecessary.

I would also just assume use that time for some clinic research activity and as a break from incessant patient contact. So, I'm sure this plays into my perception if the situation some too...😉
 
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I know of one CMHC that had to limit uninsured individual treatment to less than 10 sessions and then automatic transfer to group treatment. This was in response to a change in funding. As others have mentioned, I think this will become more and more common. FWIW, I prefer manualized group treatments.
 
Yes, in my first year, the illness management and recovery (i.e., "wellness") group working with chronic SMI - comorbid substance abuse patients was manualized (published by the Dept of Health & Human Services, Substance Abuse and MH Services Administration). It is a huge binder with evidence-based practices - I'm looking at it now...445 pages of teaching principles, guidelines and handouts to use with a variety of groups.
 
I endorse the comments above about the value of groups, especially for clients with avoidant or isolative behaviors, depression and anxiety. Effective groups do have a guiding model or manual and screen for enough affinity to create an initial sense of safety because members have a common purpose or condition. (Just being inpatient or having served in Vietnam is probably not sufficient). I also think good group facilitation does require complex problem solving, good diagnostic sense (of both individuals and group process), treatment experience, and teaching skills because psychoeducation frequently needs to be a core element. So I think group leadership for therapeutic groups (not just general peer support) does require competencies often not acquired except through doctoral level preparation--or years of clinical group practice. Groups provide opportunities very different from individual work and I have been glad to see more incentive for them emerging again. Unfortunately, most graduate school training doesn't encourage this and reinforces the view, cited above, that individual work is the only or optimal treatment modality.
 
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