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Growth of DO programs

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - DO' started by OrdinaryMD, Aug 3, 2015.

  1. OrdinaryDO

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  3. GypsyHummus

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    #3 trev5150, Aug 4, 2015
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  5. ChiTownBHawks

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    More MD schools have opened up over the past decade than DO schools. There is a race to that stagnant residency number (i.e. to get as much of the pie as possible).
     
  6. OrdinaryDO

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    Contrary to popular belief, not every post on this forum has to have an underlying agenda. I like to share data for informational purposes. You happen to be on the "Pre-Osteopathic" forums, where I hope everyone here has some love for this area of medicine, so why would it not be cool to see how we are growing in the United States? THAT...is my point.

    Yes, yes, conspire as you will, but in the end you can only create so much competition until the pool is saturated with doctors and everyone starts to realize how ridiculously out of hand it has gotten.
     
  7. Goro

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    I read somewhere that some 25% of all US clinicians are > 60 years old. That means a huge number of Baby Boom docs will be retiring over the next decade.

    Who's going to replace them, when the US population will be increasing from ~300 million to ~350 million by 2050???

    You are!

    I don't think that the AOA and the AMA are stupid enough to let the profession get to what the lawyers have to deal with right now.

    Right now there are ~1.4 residency slots for every med school graduate, DO and MD. You'd have to build 10-20 new med schools just to even that out.


     
  8. Dreamstoo

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    I've heard the same as Goro from a few doctors. There was a projection of a shortage of doctors and that's probably why medical schools are opening more often these past 10 years or so.
     
  9. ChiTownBHawks

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    ? ugh... if you don't increase the residency slots then nothing will get saturated.
     
  10. OrdinaryDO

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    Yeah, true, I also read a research paper on how the baby boomers will effect the United States as far as medicine and policy making goes. It is a huge burden that has to be dealt with one way or another, but it seems that medical schools are popping up much more rapidly than before. This could just be a one sided tale on my end since I do intentionally look for statistics of this nature, but another interesting this is the government (not sure if on a federal or state level, I believe federal) is proving more funding for public medical schools to increase their class sizes to help solve this issue as well.

    There are many different ways to confront this issue. It would seem ridiculous to upscale the building of medical schools, but not increase residencies. Although, I know in my state and the surround areas they are increasing the number of teaching hospitals and residency positions to be more fitting to the area's specific needs; which in the case of most states, it is a lack of rural physicians. (Meh...As much as I would like to say I love rural medicine, truth is I don't.)
     
  11. Goro

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    We all agree on this, and don't think for a second that all us baby Boomers will allow an honest-to-God doctor shortage to occur, nor the AOA and AMA to allow an unemployed doctor glut to occur.

    It does drive my DO colleagues up the wall though, that the AOA does nothing to increase the number of AOA residencies. The AOA seems to have this mindset of "more DOs good".


    There are many different ways to confront this issue. It would seem ridiculous to upscale the building of medical schools, but not increase residencies. Although, I know in my state and the surround areas they are increasing the number of teaching hospitals and residency positions to be more fitting to the area's specific needs; which in the case of most states, it is a lack of rural physicians. (Meh...As much as I would like to say I love rural medicine, truth is I don't.)[/QUOTE]
     
  12. Henry101

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    The pdf had a lot of interesting information, like the DO age distribution. Thanks for sharing.
     
  13. ChiTownBHawks

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    Nothing ridiculous about it. Both US MDs and US DOs are trying to provide American physicians for American people: it's a rat race to have as much of that pie as possible before US graduates exceeds residency positions-- it's not rocket science here. What would be ridiculous is expanding residency slots when there is 0 need for it
     
  14. Seth Joo

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    The quantity of DO schools has increased but the quality has not, many of the mid tier and lower tier schools do not have very good quality clinical education. Its the upper tier DO schools that seem to have a clinical program on par with decent and lower ranked MD schools.
    DO schools are growing to the point that the value of the degree will decline. Right now the Caribbean is falling sharply in value as more DO schools open and residency positions no longer keep up with number of medical school graduates. I think DO schools will share a similar fate as Caribbean schools in the not too near future if schools keep opening at the pace they are right now. The reality is that there are plenty of people biased against DOs, the physician shortage is nonsense, if you go to a major city there is no shortage of physicians whatsoever. The doctor shortage exists in rural area and inner cities, mostly because doctors will earn a better living in big cities and affluent suburbs with insured patients.
     
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  15. GrapesofRath

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    Really the only convincing take away you can make from this: Carribbean people are screwed.
     
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  16. Cardboard101

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    And IMGs
     
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  17. Seth Joo

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    DO schools are becoming like Caribbean schools 10-15 years ago, there used to be people who chose a foreign school over a DO school, today that choice would be very unwise given the dwindling prospects for foreign medical graduates.

    It used to be not a big deal to go to a foreign school because there were plenty of residency programs left over for foreign graduates but now the times have changed.

    I do not think the merger is as beneficial as people say, in many ways it brings DOs down a level where many will wind up in residency programs that the MDs did not want. At least that is my gut feeling. Having distinct AOA programs keeps certain fields within reach of DOs, DO programs in fields like Radiology, Dermatology, and ENT, keep these fields within reach for DOs, it is more difficult for DOs to match in MD programs in these fields.
     
    #16 Seth Joo, Aug 4, 2015
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    #17 trev5150, Aug 4, 2015
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  19. GypsyHummus

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    So the moral of the story is: Get into DO school now before they Caribbeanize themselves.
     
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  20. Seth Joo

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    Exactly, that is what is going to happen to DO schools, right now things are going well, but I have seen from more recent match lists at my school is that a lot of people who wanted specialty residencies wound up in primary care. I think DOs will wind up in primary care or OMM like they have for decades, we will in the back of the bus of the medical profession very soon.
     
    #19 Seth Joo, Aug 4, 2015
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  21. GypsyHummus

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    Well, could be worse. We could be English Majors working at Starbucks. At least primary care docs gross 150-180K, take home bout 110K. Not too bad of a salary, but heck to get to.

    PS, I like your avatar. Really starting to like Trump, he is the only one who seems to go head to toe with the liberal media.
     
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    #21 trev5150, Aug 4, 2015
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  23. Seth Joo

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    True but we DOs have made a lot of progress where many of us work in many different specialties of medicine including academia, I for one would like all doors to remain open for DOs.

    I think the previous system of exclusive DO residencies was a better deal because many MD residencies in certain fields are out of reach for DOs. Particularly fields like Radiology, Orthopedics, ENT, Ophthalmology, and Dermatology are tough for DOs at MD programs, having exclusive DO programs helps us.
     
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  24. GypsyHummus

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    I never did understand why MD residencies let us use their facilities while MDs were not allowed to use DOs. That was the better deal for DOs I think.
     
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  25. TrueWolverine

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    I'm certainly no expert on the subject but why do people think DO schools will end up like Caribbean schools? It seems like people are turning to a more natural healing approach. I can only imagine this will continue with baby boomers nearing/reaching retirement and seeking medical care. My guess would be that DO's practicing OMM will gain more and more favoritism. Carib schools don't have anything extra or special to offer (except more debt and fewer residencies) so of course they are being edged out by the growing US med schools. Doesn't seem to add up for me that DO schools will eventually become like the Carib schools....
     
    #24 TrueWolverine, Aug 4, 2015
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  26. asdf123g

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    out of curiosity, do you disagree with the statement that many many people 'self select' primary care at DO schools? Or is it because they know deep down they cant go to something more competitive so they 'self select' PC? obviously your opinion will be n=1 and some will disagree (or agree)
     
    #25 asdf123g, Aug 4, 2015
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  27. kalat

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    Your logic is a little odd here. The top residency matches for MD graduates are internal medicine, pediatrics, EM, and FM in that order. Are these MD matches "back of the bus"? Most people are average (or actually want to pursue these careers). Shocker. Internal medicine fellowships acknowledged, having a large portion of graduates going into these residencies is not a characteristic of DO schools. The other thing is a "Caribbean" school is not only a figurative notion, but it is a literal description. It's a school that's in the Caribbean (read: outside the US). That presents its own problems by itself. DO schools literally can't become "Caribbean" in that sense (which is actually a big deal), and I think the figurative notion is loose at best.

    The other elephant in the room is AOA residencies. I hope everyone realizes a merger does not suddenly require every program director to have a lobotomy. It only makes sense DO program directors of AOA residencies would still prefer DO students... They also haven't ironed out the training MD students will need to pursue to apply for these residencies.

    Source
     
    #26 kalat, Aug 4, 2015
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  28. OrdinaryDO

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    I literally laughed at what you said here. What do you want me to say? "OH, BY THE WAY! this post is NOT to stir up a debate?" I will give you the benefit of the doubt since you are still very new to these forums, but usually what you should do when reading a thread is start by reading it with an open mind. When I found these stats I didn't immediately think. "Yeah, this'll piss'em off." No, I said "Oh, look, this seems interesting so why don't I share?" Quit being so dang critical and take things at face value. There is no "reading between the lines," it is what it is.

    Also, you came into this conversation VERY late. So late, actually, that I have already cleared this issue up several posts back. So, you should probably leave dead arguments to settle in the dust before you end up on the bad side of peoples conscious.

    And yes, this very well might have been a rant, because I can't STAND people who do this crap. READ!!!!!!
     
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    #28 trev5150, Aug 4, 2015
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  30. StudyLater

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    Aren't class systems pretty much artificial by definition? ;) That said, they don't need to exist. The redundancy was just sort of funny, but yeah I get it....negative connotations to the opponent's position to strengthen your argument. But we're not lawyers, dammit, despite what that graph says!

    Oh and cool post. I'm really interested to see what the future holds here.

    On an off topic point @Goro I wanted to ask you....what do you guys do if, say, you accept 400 kids but only have 200 seats, and an amount of students in excess of those 200 seats actually want to come on board? Are you just always assuming that if there's an excess it'll be a manageable excess of like +10-20%? Or what? What happens if, in that example, a less manageable excess like 350 kids happen to want to enter in, but again there is only 200 seats (and you actually accepted all of those 350)? Sorry, I know it's not likely, but that question's been in my mind for a while now. I either see you just saying what the hell and taking them on or sending them an e-mail like, "Oooohhh yeah about that...we're kind of full now. Sorry." I doubt you'd do the ladder, and I know I might be overlooking something. Anyway, I'm just interested.
     
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  31. Goro

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    The major doctrine of the COMs is to get people into Primary Care. For example, MUCOM has an understanding that their grads will mostly serve the state of IN's Primary care needs, while IU's grads will mostly serve IN's specialist needs. Obviously, there will be overlap into what the grads end up doing, but both schools are happy with the arrangement.

    If we end up overbooking and it blows up in our faces:

    1) The wily old Admissions dean gets fired
    2) we have to sit all those overbooked students
    3) we will beg, plead and grovel to get those acceptees to defer a year
    4) COCA will probably not be pleased.

    I vaguely recall that LUCOM actually did something like this! I might be imagining it, though. Any LUCOM students want to set the record straight?

     
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  32. Seth Joo

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    DOs for many years have been relegated to practicing OMM and primary care, we will wind up doing that if nothing is done about graduate training programs soon. The number of graduate training programs has remained static and I feel the merger has actually hurt DOs because there were exclusive DO residencies in fields like Radiology, Ophthalmology, ENT, etc, these are fields which hard for DOs to match into at allopathic programs.

    Many of my classmates are at my program because they could not get into an MD program and many had stats to get into an MD program but for whatever reason did not make the cut including myself. Not all of us want to wind up working as rural family doctors or practicing manipulation for cash.
     
  33. OrdinaryDO

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    I am not trying to create a pseudo-class here on SDN, but I don't expect someone who joined yesterday to know the ropes of how this forum operates. Like I said, I am giving the benefit of the doubt since this seems to be a common occurrence among newer members.

    Also, you did not take my post correctly, because you definitely took it as a troll thread based off pure speculation.

    So, my name is of concern or somehow contributed to you thinking my thread was toll? Look at my join date...My mind has changed over the years and I am not willing to pay money just to change two letters from MD to DO; I'm not that superficial.

    There was no need for you to try to be some hero and make something out of nothing. Notice how my ORIGINAL post said
    So troll, right? HAHAHA
     
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    #33 trev5150, Aug 5, 2015
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  35. J Senpai

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    Entirely possible that OP joined in HS like myself or that (s)he is taking 1+ gap years. And perhaps "check yo-self" as well before opining on the perceived arrogance of another's post when you yourself entered this thread with a confrontational attitude.
     
  36. Goro

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    I don't know where you're getting your data from, but just look at some random match lists, and tally up the #s of people going into Primary Care vs specialties. And OMM is only for the true believers.

    For my graduates (and at 13 other COMs), the majority of them go into ACGME residencies.

    About 2/3rds of my grads go into Primary Care. My students self-select for this. They DON'T tell each other white lies to make themselves feel better, they do this because they want to.

    1/3rd of my grads get into specialties.

    ~5% get into ROADs specialties.

    Maybe 1-2 kids every year go into OMT.

    At another COM west of St Louis, ~40% of the grads go into specialties (AOA + military + ACGME), with ~5% into ROADs

    So cut the bovine excrement. If you want to specialize as a DO, you can. You might have to work a little harder....are you afraid of hard work?

    I don't foresee legions of MD grads going to rush into OMM training so they can get into an AOA residency. Time will tell.

     
    #35 Goro, Aug 5, 2015
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  38. J Senpai

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    You literally introduced the concept of "stirring up debate" and you seem to be the only person who really has a problem with the OP's random post and invitation to look into the posted information. And bringing up the MD in the OP's username? You seem to want terribly badly to label OP as a troll.
     
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    #38 trev5150, Aug 5, 2015
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  40. J Senpai

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    I'm not defending his position nor his behavior but I am encouraging you to look at your own troll hunting behavior for what it is. Looking at some of your other posts, you seem to have a propensity to go hunting for people with ulterior motives, an implicit paranoia pointed out in some of the other threads in which you have participated. You do it again here, accusing me of going "far beyond the basic premise" when I've spoken naught of the validity of the OP's post, myself.

    It's courteous to reply to a post when in conversation with another forum member. Perhaps his charge of you being a forum newbie held some water...
     
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  41. StudyLater

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    Ah that's interesting. Particularly 4). I was under the impression there are schools that have like 350+ seats (LECOM being one of them. Maybe LUCOM as well?). Assuming yours is around 200 or so, what's the big deal to COCA if you happen to have 350 matriculants? Do you have to register the number of seats you provide with them and they expect you to stick to that, or something, regardless of the fact that you technically could have more like other schools do?


    Guys guys....can't we all just get along (and get into med school)?
     
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  42. Cardboard101

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    So for a prospective DO student who only wants only to do primary (IM), family practice or emergency medicine the merger makes the ACGME residency positions more readily accessible and should be seen as a net positive?
     
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    #42 trev5150, Aug 5, 2015
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  44. Supernatural17

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    I'm also wondering the same thing because I am interested in Emergency Medicine as well. Thanks
     
  45. J Senpai

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  46. asdf123g

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    when you say this do you mean they couldnt "make the cut" to specialize so they tell each other white lies that PC is what they always wanted to go into in the first place? Or did I misinterpret this? Did you mean to add "DON'T" (in red above)?
     
  47. Goro

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    Many thanks asdf; I fixed my statement.

     
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  48. Goro

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    Time to calm down!

     
  49. Cardboard101

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    Well that's a relief. For a moment I thought I'd misunderstood the meaning of another English phrase.
     
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  50. DrEnderW

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    It's really net neutral. You'd probably be applying ACGME anyways and skipping the AOA match, especially if you took the USMLE. It would make things more convenient if you were looking to apply to both AOA and ACGME with less AOA preference.
     
  51. AlteredScale

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    Let's keep it professional please.
     
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