Growth of DO programs

[GypsyHummus]

Well that's a relief. For a moment I thought I'd misunderstood the meaning of another English phrase.

That verbal reasoning mcat section tho

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[Seth Joo]

I don't know where you're getting your data from, but just look at some random match lists, and tally up the #s of people going into Primary Care vs specialties. And OMM is only for the true believers.

For my graduates (and at 13 other COMs), the majority of them go into ACGME residencies.

About 2/3rds of my grads go into Primary Care. My students self-select for this. They DON'T tell each other white lies to make themselves feel better, they do this because they want to.

1/3rd of my grads get into specialties.

~5% get into ROADs specialties.

Maybe 1-2 kids every year go into OMT.

At another COM west of St Louis, ~40% of the grads go into specialties (AOA + military + ACGME), with ~5% into ROADs

So cut the bovine excrement. If you want to specialize as a DO, you can. You might have to work a little harder....are you afraid of hard work?

I don't foresee legions of MD grads going to rush into OMM training so they can get into an AOA residency. Time will tell.

ACGME IM, EM, and FM is not that hard to match into, but ACMGE Orthopedics, Radiology, Dermatology, and ENT, now that is another story. IM at elite research institutions is tough for a DO (Harvard, Yale, Hopkins, etc) as well.

I was looking at match lists from several years ago at my school. Someone from the class of 2010 matched into Dermatology at the Mayo Clinic, a top Allopathic program, which is unheard of for a DO, I think that was just a lucky outlier. I looked at recent match lists which did not look as good, I would be impressed if I get Internal Medicine at Mass General, I think that will be a very uphill battle, I would probably the first DO to match there.

At my school many of the people I know for a fact including myself were aiming for an MD school but did not make the cut for various reasons, I had the grades and GPA, but did not get in, and at least a third of my class had the same fate, so they chose DO. Maybe your school has a more primary care oriented culture than mine which I assume is the case.

Most top MD schools the ratio is 2/3rds specializing with less than a third going into primary care, its the reverse at most DO schools. Of course you have to work harder, but there is still an inherent bias at some academic programs against DOs much like there is bias against foreign graduates.

If 33 percent of your class is specializing I do not find that number remarkable at all that seems about the typical number for most DO schools. The presence of AOA residencies helps that number as well.

I think AOA residencies in ROADS helps DOs match into these fields because its otherwise uphill to do so at ACGME programs. I was not referring to AOA OMM residencies and fellowships. MDs are not going to be stealing OMM residencies but they might steal AOA ROADs residency spots under the merger, so I think the merger is going to wind up hurting DOs more than helping.

 

[Goro]

I'll have to double check my numbers, but I believe that the 5% of my kids who do ROADS are doing it via ACGME.

Not sure if your school, but KCUMB does have luck getting grads into Mayo.

ACMGE IM, EM, and FM is not that hard to match into, but ACMGE Orthopedics, Radiology, Dermatology, and ENT, now that is another story.

I was looking at match lists from several years ago at my school. Someone from the class of 2010 matched into Dermatology at the Mayo Clinic, a top Allopathic program, which is unheard of for a DO, I think that was just a lucky outlier. I looked at recent match lists which did not look as good, I would be impressed if I get Internal Medicine at Mass General, I think that will be a very uphill battle, I would probably the first DO to match there.

Most top MD schools the ratio is 2/3rds specializing with less than a third going into primary care, its the reverse at most DO schools. Of course you have to work harder, but there is still an inherent bias at some academic programs against DOs much like there is bias against foreign graduates.

If 33 percent of your class is specializing I do not find that number remarkable at all that seems about the typical number for most DO schools. The presence of AOA residencies helps that number as well. I think AOA residencies in ROADS helps DOs match into these fields because its otherwise uphill to do so at ACGME programs. I was not referring to AOA OMM residencies and fellowships.

 

[Seth Joo]

I'll have to double check my numbers, but I believe that the 5% of my kids who do ROADS are doing it via ACGME.

Not sure if your school, but KCUMB does have luck getting grads into Mayo.

Many DOs can match into Allopathic Radiology, I think Dermatology and ENT would be tougher as well as Orthopedics, many DOs have matched into AOA residencies in these fields. If you know of a program that does take DOs in these areas. I would love to hear about it.

Its not impossible to specialize as a DO but I do believe you have to apply yourself harder to do so. The colleagues of mine at top research MD schools have carte blanche access to top residency programs in comparison.

 

[Goro]

Agreed. But your initial claim that DOs can only do Primary Care or OMT is clearly not the case now, is it?

Many DOs can match into Allopathic Radiology, I think Dermatology and ENT would be tougher as well as Orthopedics, many DOs have matched into AOA residencies in these fields. If you know of a program that does take DOs in these areas. I would love to hear about it.

Its not impossible to specialize as a DO but I do believe you have to apply yourself harder to do so. The colleagues of mine at top research MD schools have carte blanche access to top residency programs in comparison.

 

[Cardboard101]

Does EM fall into the category of more competitive for DO's than MDs comparatively? Apologies in advance for ignorance. I haven't started extensively researching residencies other than the ones with doctors I shadowed.

 

[user3]

Many DOs can match into Allopathic Radiology, I think Dermatology and ENT would be tougher as well as Orthopedics, many DOs have matched into AOA residencies in these fields. If you know of a program that does take DOs in these areas. I would love to hear about it.

Its not impossible to specialize as a DO but I do believe you have to apply yourself harder to do so. The colleagues of mine at top research MD schools have carte blanche access to top residency programs in comparison.

radiology is not even close to derm/ent/ortho...it probably is less competitive than anesthesiology right now. In fact if I am not mistaken, there may have been more spots last match than US MD/DO students applying to it.

 

[kenjixshadow]

Does EM fall into the category of more competitive for DO's than MDs comparatively? Apologies in advance for ignorance. I haven't started extensively researching residencies other than the ones with doctors I shadowed.

For ACGME programs, yes though EM is DO-friendly. Aside from decent board scores (EM PDs look at both Step 1 & 2), a DO must be able to impress everyone at the audition rotations (at least 2) in order to obtain good SLOEs, which is arguably as important as step 1, and one wouldn't be able to if s/he needs hands holding. There is a stigma for DO students and hopefully it will change when DO schools step up with their clerkship rotations.

 

[Seth Joo]

Agreed. But your initial claim that DOs can only do Primary Care or OMT is clearly not the case now, is it?

I think it could be the future if residency programs do not expand alongside with school expansion. I am not too fond of the the whole ACGME-AOA merger as I do not think it benefits DOs enough, it does not yet place us at parity with our MD brethren yet.

Right now things are at a sweet spot for DOs but you never know what tomorrow may bring. I am more thinking of the what might happen down the road not right now things are pretty good for DOs at the present.

The presence of AOA ROADS residencies is a benefit to those DOs who wish to enter these fields.

 

[allantois]

Just to give people an idea: only 2 DOs matched into an integrated ACGME plastics residency since 2007. Don't expect the merger to bring anything positive to DOs wishing to specialize.

 

[StudyLater]

Let's keep it professional please.

You know how hard it is for pre-professionals to be professional.

Damn Gen-Xers....no values.

I think it's safe to say that nearly every informed future/current DO student isn't expecting the level of access to specialties that MDs have, and the expectation of a slow decline of current access with the corresponding increase in grads seems to be a reasonable assumption.

What I'm saying is, this has all been said before. We know, we know. This degree is still well worth pursuing, particularly for those who don't really care for having immense specialization options.

 

[asdf123g]

Just to give people an idea: only 2 DOs matched into an integrated ACGME plastics residency since 2007. Don't expect the merger to bring anything positive to DOs wishing to specialize.

what was the point in the merger again? Was it greater access to fellowships?
Won't AOA residencies just be bias against MD's? Door swings both ways. The bias may just cancel one another out lol

 

[allantois]

what was the point in the merger again? Was it greater access to fellowships?
Won't AOA residencies just be bias against MD's? Door swings both ways. The bias may just cancel one another out lol

In my opinion it's a power grab by AMA. Ultimately,there will be no point for DOs to maintain their osteopathic board certifications and thus MD boards will have all of the control over board certification of specialists. In my opinion, the people in charge should have focused on containing nurses rather than fighting these turf wars with one another.

 

[Cardboard101]

In my opinion it's a power grab by AMA. Ultimately,there will be no point for DOs to maintain their osteopathic board certifications and thus MD boards will have all of the control over board certification of specialists. In my opinion, the people in charge should have focused on containing nurses rather than fighting these turf wars with one another.

Would you mind elaborating a bit on the "containing nurses" part? I don't understand/am missing context.

 

[deleted407021]

Would you mind elaborating a bit on the "containing nurses" part? I don't understand/am missing context.

He's talking about how nurses (and other mid-level providers) are encroaching on physician jobs, claiming to be able to do the same thing for less pay. All the while physicians are bickering with one another about who gets to put in the stent, seemingly unaware that nurses and PAs are getting independent practice rights all over the country.

The biggest problem with this is that these providers aren't strictly trained for independent practice, where they may be tempted to work outside their scope and the data along with the professional anectdotes seem to show that mid-levels don't provide the quality of care that doctors do.

 

[GUH]

Your logic is a little odd here. The top residency matches for MD graduates are internal medicine, pediatrics, EM, and FM in that order. Are these MD matches "back of the bus"? Most people are average (or actually want to pursue these careers). Shocker. Internal medicine fellowships acknowledged, having a large portion of graduates going into these residencies is not a characteristic of DO schools. The other thing is a "Caribbean" school is not only a figurative notion, but it is a literal description. It's a school that's in the Caribbean (read: outside the US). That presents its own problems by itself. DO schools literally can't become "Caribbean" in that sense (which is actually a big deal), and I think the figurative notion is loose at best.

The other elephant in the room is AOA residencies. I hope everyone realizes a merger does not suddenly require every program director to have a lobotomy. It only makes sense DO program directors of AOA residencies would still prefer DO students... They also haven't ironed out the training MD students will need to pursue to apply for these residencies.





Source

I have seen no evidence that there will be a significant number of programs applying for osteopathic recognition after the GME takeover. For those programs that don't, there are no mandated extra requirements for MD applicants.

 

[Seth Joo]

what was the point in the merger again? Was it greater access to fellowships?
Won't AOA residencies just be bias against MD's? Door swings both ways. The bias may just cancel one another out lol

A lot of people think the merger is going to put DOs on parity with MDs, the reality is that it will not. It might increase the value of DO residencies though because they will have dual accreditation but then there will be more competition to get those residencies, MDs won't be vying for OMM residencies but they will try to get former AOA ROADs residencies that were exclusively for DOs. That is why I believe in the future DOs will wind up like Caribbean graduates in that we will get forced into primary care and OMT but that is down the road, right now at the present there is plenty of opportunity but the future is uncertain.

 

[kalat]

I have seen no evidence that there will be a significant number of programs applying for osteopathic recognition after the GME takeover. For those programs that don't, there are no mandated extra requirements for MD applicants.

That's all well and good, but it doesn't discount the bulk of my point. I did not know the AOA programs had to apply for "osteopathic recognition" in the new merged GME however. TIL.