Guidance on Leaving

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
PistolPete3

PistolPete3

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2011
Messages
27
Reaction score
12
Members do not see this ad.
Hello Everyone,

Hope you guys are enjoying the arrival of Spring. I am hoping to get some advice/guidance on taking a leave at the end of M1.

I've posted on here a couple of times but here is a quick summary. I was a fairly accomplished engineer and really enjoyed my work. I came to medical school because I was interested in being a physician, and I thought I could really bring my talents to bear.

~7 months in I have loathed nearly every minute of this process. I have done acceptably well, but really feel disengaged, apathetic, and frankly uninterested. My problem solving and coding skill sets (which were fairly well-developed) have been wasting away as I cram a sea of questionably-useful information into my brain.

It's a tough decision but I am planning on taking a leave and going back to work at the end of M1. My school will allow a 1 year leave of absence with no academic consequences, so I could possibly resume the MD later. For anyone who has been in a similar situation any advice? Many have told me to stick it out and get to the clinic, but I am really leery of investing another 3 years and ~$150K just to see whether it will get better - sounds a lot like a sunk cost fallacy to me.

On the other hand I am passionate about being a physician. I think that someone with a strong background in lean design and computer science could be of great utility in this field. Good system design and workable software engineering could really change medicine for the better. I'm just not sure that banging my head against the system is how I want to spend the most productive decades of my work-life.

Any thoughts?
 
PistolPete3 said:
On the other hand I am passionate about being a physician. I think that someone with a strong background in lean design and computer science could be of great utility in this field. Good system design and workable software engineering could really change medicine for the better. I'm just not sure that banging my head against the system is how I want to spend the most productive decades of my work-life.

Any thoughts?
Click to expand...
No hostility here, but you don't come across as very passionate about becoming a physician. I think if you don't have the emotional investment into it, it is difficult to keep going. Maybe you should go back to industry because there are many other ways you can improve the healthcare field other than being a healthcare provider.
 
OP- my advice is that it only gets worse if you are a sane thinking individual with an ability to think analytically and practically.

Unless you like droning your way through treatment algorithms like this. The only useful knowledge I acquired in medical school is that PREVENTION is everything and don't be a sucker by dying in the ICU, hospital, nursing home.

child-medication.gif
 
Last edited:
What exactly are you passionate about medicine?
 
A close family member of mine was in the ICU for 64 days a few years ago. The experience left a real mark on me. Unfortunately the family member passed, but I got to interact with both incredible and shockingly-awful physicians. I have a deep interest (and somewhat a sense of obligation) to be one of the great physicians out there. My fear is that this negative reaction to the training will not translate into meeting that goal.
 
PistolPete3 said:
A close family member of mine was in the ICU for 64 days a few years ago. The experience left a real mark on me. Unfortunately the family member passed, but I got to interact with both incredible and shockingly-awful physicians. I have a deep interest (and somewhat a sense of obligation) to be one of the great physicians out there. My fear is that this negative reaction to the training will not translate into meeting that goal.
Click to expand...

- A layman's ability to assess "incredible" and "awful" physicians is usually off. Most people (even nurses, other allied providers) judge physicians by their personality. You can be the worst physician but have people sending you their family members because you're very social and can people like you. So, you might be in for a surprise when you advance enough in medical training to see that your "sense of obligation" to the field was clouded by inaccurate judgement of the physicians you've seen.

- there is some critical thinking in medicine, but not nearly as much as engineering (unless you do high power research, most clinical work is not engineering level thinking). With that said, if you're truly passionate about becoming a physician, you can find a field that has enough critical thinking to keep you entertained. First/second years of medical school will give you none of that unfortunately, and you won't know unless you stick it out until the end. At that point, you'll be in so much debt that it would be hard to leave.

- If you get an MD, maybe an unrestricted license (one year or residency + pass step 3), you could probably use that training to advance in engineering if you decide you don't want to be a clinician. Not sure if the cost is worth it, as there would be no guarantees that your MD/license will help you earn that much more money (compared to just trying to advance as an engineer without being an MD).
 
If it's more an obligation than an interest, sounds like it'll be a tough slog.

I've had a chance to observe some high-drama moments during pre-med. They leave an impact, but they're not the standard. Most of the times, it's hum-drum routine stuff.

It's gonna be tough to come back to this stuff if you leave. GL w/ your decision.
 
I agree my judgment on physician quality probably was and is not the best standard. However, there are some basic human things I think you should do/say for a patient who just lost a close family member. Then again if you're burnt out, tired physician/just can't deal with the situation, I can see being rude/cruel regarding grief.
 
awared2 said:
No hostility here, but you don't come across as very passionate about becoming a physician. I think if you don't have the emotional investment into it, it is difficult to keep going. Maybe you should go back to industry because there are many other ways you can improve the healthcare field other than being a healthcare provider.
Click to expand...

PistolPete3 said:
A close family member of mine was in the ICU for 64 days a few years ago. The experience left a real mark on me. Unfortunately the family member passed, but I got to interact with both incredible and shockingly-awful physicians. I have a deep interest (and somewhat a sense of obligation) to be one of the great physicians out there. My fear is that this negative reaction to the training will not translate into meeting that goal.
Click to expand...

Ask anyone in blocks 1 or 2 if they think their current situation is what they expect practice to be like. If they say yes, slap them, tell them to go shadow, and ask them again when they get back. There is no shame in losing interest in piles upon piles of PhD-relevant-but-probably-not-clinically-relevant information, and beyond indicating a natural level of happiness, I don't think it's indicative of how much you'll enjoy actually practicing medicine.

Honestly, I can't relate to your situation personally, Pete. I enjoy knowing (note: I didn't say learning) all of the details; I love the science. However, I do have a friend, who is a very kind and empathetic soul, who basically felt the same as you do now. His solution was to spend more free time shadowing. He tells me that this helps him keep his motivation to study block material. Maybe it could work for you?

As far as taking time off to work... as I understand it, that's not recommended. I don't think it would help your chances to land a competitive residency, and lots of people use that year if they realize their CV isn't strong enough for the residency they want. If you're set on a non-competitive field, though, I don't think it'll really change anything for you.
 
PistolPete3 said:
Hello Everyone,

Hope you guys are enjoying the arrival of Spring. I am hoping to get some advice/guidance on taking a leave at the end of M1.

I've posted on here a couple of times but here is a quick summary. I was a fairly accomplished engineer and really enjoyed my work. I came to medical school because I was interested in being a physician, and I thought I could really bring my talents to bear.

~7 months in I have loathed nearly every minute of this process. I have done acceptably well, but really feel disengaged, apathetic, and frankly uninterested. My problem solving and coding skill sets (which were fairly well-developed) have been wasting away as I cram a sea of questionably-useful information into my brain.

It's a tough decision but I am planning on taking a leave and going back to work at the end of M1. My school will allow a 1 year leave of absence with no academic consequences, so I could possibly resume the MD later. For anyone who has been in a similar situation any advice? Many have told me to stick it out and get to the clinic, but I am really leery of investing another 3 years and ~$150K just to see whether it will get better - sounds a lot like a sunk cost fallacy to me.

On the other hand I am passionate about being a physician. I think that someone with a strong background in lean design and computer science could be of great utility in this field. Good system design and workable software engineering could really change medicine for the better. I'm just not sure that banging my head against the system is how I want to spend the most productive decades of my work-life.

Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

I feel like you're painting two scenarios.

1st scenario- I hate medical school and am doing well but don't feel like it's a good use of my time.

2nd scenario- I am passionate about medicine.

So... what's your passion about? I mean, no one (sane) really enjoys medical school. If you have good reasons to believe that you "need" to be a doctor then you should view medical school as a stepping stool towards achieving that goal.

However, if you had passion about medicine, I would think at least some of the material they cover would be appealing to you since they are teaching you medicine. It's true that things will be better (assuming) when you do your 3rd year, but I guess I don't believe you're passionate about medicine by the way you're describing your situation.

Figure out what you really want then do what you can to get there.
 
This thread in a nutshell:

Being a doctor vs idea of being a doctor vs training to be a doctor.

If it's more #3, join the masses. If it's #2, then you have bigger problems.
 
Go back to why you wanted to go to med school in the first place. How did you convince yourself (and those in admissions) on why you really wanted to become a doctor. If it's an "obligation to some doctor" you met in those days when you visited the ICU, you may feel guilty about leaving. Think about you. Think about the long term. What do you see yourself doing? Can you combine your engineering talents within the medical field?
 
solitarius said:
This thread in a nutshell:

Being a doctor vs idea of being a doctor vs training to be a doctor.

If it's more #3, join the masses. If it's #2, then you have bigger problems.
Click to expand...

I think this is a perfect distillation of the issue. Frankly the idea of practicing in many (and a growing number) of specialties terrifies me.

I hate the training, am really unsure about the endpoint, but still have an obligation/inertia to continue.
 
awared2 said:
No hostility here, but you don't come across as very passionate about becoming a physician. I think if you don't have the emotional investment into it, it is difficult to keep going. Maybe you should go back to industry because there are many other ways you can improve the healthcare field other than being a healthcare provider.
Click to expand...
I agree with this statement.
 
moonwake said:
I feel like you're painting two scenarios.

1st scenario- I hate medical school and am doing well but don't feel like it's a good use of my time.

2nd scenario- I am passionate about medicine.

So... what's your passion about? I mean, no one (sane) really enjoys medical school. If you have good reasons to believe that you "need" to be a doctor then you should view medical school as a stepping stool towards achieving that goal.

However, if you had passion about medicine, I would think at least some of the material they cover would be appealing to you since they are teaching you medicine. It's true that things will be better (assuming) when you do your 3rd year, but I guess I don't believe you're passionate about medicine by the way you're describing your situation.

Figure out what you really want then do what you can to get there.
Click to expand...
What are your qualifications for that statement? You were accepted? I have found med school to be quite enjoyable, so far
 
joker2400 said:
What are your qualifications for that statement? You were accepted? I have found med school to be quite enjoyable, so far
Click to expand...

I'm going off word of mouth. I'm sure it's not impossible. But I have yet to meet someone who says they enjoyed it. Nice to meet you.
 
PistolPete3 said:
Hello Everyone,

Hope you guys are enjoying the arrival of Spring. I am hoping to get some advice/guidance on taking a leave at the end of M1.

I've posted on here a couple of times but here is a quick summary. I was a fairly accomplished engineer and really enjoyed my work. I came to medical school because I was interested in being a physician, and I thought I could really bring my talents to bear.

~7 months in I have loathed nearly every minute of this process. I have done acceptably well, but really feel disengaged, apathetic, and frankly uninterested. My problem solving and coding skill sets (which were fairly well-developed) have been wasting away as I cram a sea of questionably-useful information into my brain.

It's a tough decision but I am planning on taking a leave and going back to work at the end of M1. My school will allow a 1 year leave of absence with no academic consequences, so I could possibly resume the MD later. For anyone who has been in a similar situation any advice? Many have told me to stick it out and get to the clinic, but I am really leery of investing another 3 years and ~$150K just to see whether it will get better - sounds a lot like a sunk cost fallacy to me.

On the other hand I am passionate about being a physician. I think that someone with a strong background in lean design and computer science could be of great utility in this field. Good system design and workable software engineering could really change medicine for the better. I'm just not sure that banging my head against the system is how I want to spend the most productive decades of my work-life.

Any thoughts?
Click to expand...


You should have worked 5+ years with your "coding" skills and then realized that the projects you are assigned are menial tasks and the great "applications" they are working on have already been done, over and over and over again. Once you realize that anybody that lies on their resume about "professional software experience" gets hired as a senior above you, only to ask you simple questions about HTML constructs, do you realize you made a terrible terrible mistake.

For what its worth, as long as you are happy doing all the grunt work and having managers take the credit for everything, while also receiving extra projects due to the fact that your unqualified coworkers cannot complete the work they are given, I say go for it. There is tons of work out there. Me personally, I love every second of med school because you can't pay me enough to go back to that hell hole ever again
 
moonwake said:
I'm going off word of mouth. I'm sure it's not impossible. But I have yet to meet someone who says they enjoyed it. Nice to meet you.
Click to expand...

Med school and residency are constantly battling it out in my mind for the title of "best four years of my life." Did I enjoy every single moment of either while going through it? Of course not, but I'll never say I didn't enjoy learning medicine.
 
22031 Alum said:
Med school and residency are constantly battling it out in my mind for the title of "best four years of my life." Did I enjoy every single moment of either while going through it? Of course not, but I'll never say I didn't enjoy learning medicine.
Click to expand...
What did you like so much about it? Being busy?
 
Shjanzey said:
You should have worked 5+ years with your "coding" skills and then realized that the projects you are assigned are menial tasks and the great "applications" they are working on have already been done, over and over and over again. Once you realize that anybody that lies on their resume about "professional software experience" gets hired as a senior above you, only to ask you simple questions about HTML constructs, do you realize you made a terrible terrible mistake.

For what its worth, as long as you are happy doing all the grunt work and having managers take the credit for everything, while also receiving extra projects due to the fact that your unqualified coworkers cannot complete the work they are given, I say go for it. There is tons of work out there. Me personally, I love every second of med school because you can't pay me enough to go back to that hell hole ever again
Click to expand...

I've heard a lot of doctors having a similar sentiment to medicine, especially the primary care docs. Unless you happen to be at a top institution or a great researcher or something, your job is pretty much doing repetitive tasks day in and day out, and not getting a whole lot of respect or credit for it. Managing somebody's diabetes or COPD for the 100th time doesn't sound a whole lot more complicated or exciting than writing some HTML for the 100th time.
 
moonwake said:
What did you like so much about it? Being busy?
Click to expand...

I'm a trivia buff, and the preclinical years are like prepping for the biggest trivia competition on the planet. I am also nostalgic about having near-complete control over my own schedule for the last time in my life. The clinical years were my chance to apply all that knowledge, in addition to putting my interpersonal skills to use. I made lifelong friends and got to enjoy a great city. It was hard, and stressful, but the net was positive.

OP- I saw several engineer (and chemist, and physicist) friends struggle with the transition from understanding concepts to lots of pure memorizing. I didn't, because of the way my brain is wired. You just have to understand that the vast amount of info that has to be mastered, makes it hard to do things any other way. Medicine is not first and second year. It's not even really third and fourth year. But I wouldn't assume that disliking this year means you're not meant to do medicine.
 
It's interesting to see formerly conceptual learners dislike medical school for its rote memorization requirements. As staff at a residency program, I frequently lament the lack of conceptual understanding that residents display. It makes me wonder if this is specialty specific, or if we're recruiting the entirely wrong type of person into medicine.
 
colbgw02 said:
It's interesting to see formerly conceptual learners dislike medical school for its rote memorization requirements. As staff at a residency program, I frequently lament the lack of conceptual understanding that residents display. It makes me wonder if this is specialty specific, or if we're recruiting the entirely wrong type of person into medicine.
Click to expand...

I don't think that medicine selects against conceptual knowledge at all. It is very necessary, but you have to have a base to build conceptual knowledge on. You couldn't learn reaction mechanisms in orgo before learning functional groups. Medicine is the same, just with orders of magnitude more information at the "base." I am also staff at a residency program and have seen the opposite of your described scenario, as well as what you described. When residents try to apply concepts before having the basics down, it's just as frustrating as those who can rattle off facts without the conceptual knowledge to synthesize them. Sometimes people want to make it an either/or situation, and it's really not. It's both, in different proportions at different times.
 
chipwhitley said:
I've heard a lot of doctors having a similar sentiment to medicine, especially the primary care docs. Unless you happen to be at a top institution or a great researcher or something, your job is pretty much doing repetitive tasks day in and day out, and not getting a whole lot of respect or credit for it. Managing somebody's diabetes or COPD for the 100th time doesn't sound a whole lot more complicated or exciting than writing some HTML for the 100th time.
Click to expand...

Says the guy who never worked in as a corporate programmer
 
colbgw02 said:
It's interesting to see formerly conceptual learners dislike medical school for its rote memorization requirements. As staff at a residency program, I frequently lament the lack of conceptual understanding that residents display. It makes me wonder if this is specialty specific, or if we're recruiting the entirely wrong type of person into medicine.
Click to expand...

I am primarily conceptual and I have noticed that there is a base knowledge you need to possess before applying "the theory" of it all. Seeing an equation is much easier than spending 40 hours to memorize the proper terminology and various rules of physiology before finally seeing the big picture. It takes a lot more effort to lay the groundwork before coming to an understanding...I think that is what many conceptual learners dislike what they see as merely "rote memorization".
 
Last edited:
22031 Alum said:
I don't think that medicine selects against conceptual knowledge at all. It is very necessary, but you have to have a base to build conceptual knowledge on. You couldn't learn reaction mechanisms in orgo before learning functional groups. Medicine is the same, just with orders of magnitude more information at the "base." I am also staff at a residency program and have seen the opposite of your described scenario, as well as what you described. When residents try to apply concepts before having the basics down, it's just as frustrating as those who can rattle off facts without the conceptual knowledge to synthesize them. Sometimes people want to make it an either/or situation, and it's really not. It's both, in different proportions at different times.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your post (honestly), but what is the opposite of what I've described? Residents who have conceptual understanding but can't describe specifics of application? I have a hard time understanding how that works.
 
Shjanzey said:
On my way. We both have the same perspective of medicine, but you lack the perspective I have on corporate slavery
Click to expand...
If you were in corporate engineering for 10 years and didn't move up to a management position by the end of it, well.... yeah that does suck. Not everyone's experience though.
 
chipwhitley said:
If you were in corporate engineering for 10 years and didn't move up to management by the end of it, well.... yeah that does suck. Not everyone's experience though.
Click to expand...

Ugh, I would rather shoot myself than be in management. If you manage to find a good job doing CS you have hit the lottery, they are few and far between
 
C'mon, both are JOBS; hence, inherent suckiness.

Engineering is suited for people who'd choose radiology or path. Big practical advantage for engineering is for people who'd rather not interact much w/ other people --> staring at a computer instead (i.e., surfing the Net non-stop).

Moving up to middle mgmt. Who but the most naive/insecure rube would want to do that?
 
moonwake said:
I'm going off word of mouth. I'm sure it's not impossible. But I have yet to meet someone who says they enjoyed it. Nice to meet you.
Click to expand...
I've actually quite enjoyed it on the whole as well. There were times that were miserable, but they were more than counterbalanced by the rest of the med school experience. Yes, I'm in the promised land of 4th year, but I would have answered the same last July.
 
DeucesHigh3 said:
I've actually quite enjoyed it on the whole as well. There were times that were miserable, but they were more than counterbalanced by the rest of the med school experience. Yes, I'm in the promised land of 4th year, but I would have answered the same last July.
Click to expand...

cool well now im curious to see how i like it
 
I have taken graduate level computer science courses and scored highly in them. However opposite to you my brain does not automatically "code" or "enjoy coding." It is fun when it works but it doesn't flow for me. Also I feel isolated when stuck alone with my computer for 8 hours a day. I think if you speak languages like C perl SQL and python fluently you are unique, there is huge demand for your skillset, and there are companies which provide good company culture and sometimes even medical applications ...why worry about it though? Just start sending your resume out, see what kind of offers you get, and wait until you land the job to leave. You could easily make >100K as a quant or programmer in a big city. If you aren't enjoying medicine and do find something better the first year is definitely just a sunk cost.
 
Last edited:
Shjanzey said:
I am primarily conceptual and I have noticed that there is a base knowledge you need to possess before applying "the theory" of it all. Seeing an equation is much easier than spending 40 hours to memorize the proper terminology and various rules of physiology before finally seeing the big picture. It takes a lot more effort to lay the groundwork before coming to an understanding...I think that is what many conceptual learners dislike what they see as merely "rote memorization".
Click to expand...

I understand what you're saying, but that's not exactly what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the people who are quite good at rote learning, but who then struggle with conceptual understanding. Quite clearly, a baseline ability of the former is requisite for medical school. In fact, many of these types of learners will do quite well by objective measures. I'm suggesting that there is a significant subpopulation who possesses excellent memorization skills who then struggles in the practical application of knowledge. Conversely, I believe there are people with adequate, but not exceptional, memorization skills with a wonderful conceptual approach who may outwardly appear less competitive due to the vaguaries of medical education. As a residency staff, I don't want to see someone with a broad understanding but who consistently screws up details, but I am willing to sacrifice a little fund of knowledge for someone who "gets it".
 
colbgw02 said:
I understand what you're saying, but that's not exactly what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the people who are quite good at rote learning, but who then struggle with conceptual understanding. Quite clearly, a baseline ability of the former is requisite for medical school. In fact, many of these types of learners will do quite well by objective measures. I'm suggesting that there is a significant subpopulation who possesses excellent memorization skills who then struggles in the practical application of knowledge. Conversely, I believe there are people with adequate, but not exceptional, memorization skills with a wonderful conceptual approach who may outwardly appear less competitive due to the vaguaries of medical education. As a residency staff, I don't want to see someone with a broad understanding but who consistently screws up details, but I am willing to sacrifice a little fund of knowledge for someone who "gets it".
Click to expand...

Oops, thanks for the clarification. I see what you are saying now.
 
Shjanzey said:
Ugh, I would rather shoot myself than be in management. If you manage to find a good job doing CS you have hit the lottery, they are few and far between
Click to expand...

I don't know why I liked this, because I totally disagree. I think everyone is unique in terms of what they perceive to be to be enjoyable, and from what you are saying with being very unsure and a year of no consequences I would definitely send the resume out and see what comes up. It is not true that there are not interesting software jobs out there -- there are incredibly interesting data visualization and optimization problems. And machine learning questions anywhere you look in a major city. You may have to continue to put your resume out for 3-6 months before you hit on a job you like. Don't take the first one if it is not interesting to you. What is important anywhere you go is that you take time to build quality relationships with people who can support you in the thing you are most interested in. If someone above you asks you an easy questions and wants to take credit for it -- this is not a bad situation. If you are emotionally intelligent you can build on this relationship to negotiate responsibilities you enjoy. Find some people you admire and send them emails about how they got started in their field (without even necessarily asking for a job). They are usually incredibly responsive. Do what you love.
 
cinnamonlady said:
I don't know why I liked this, because I totally disagree. I think everyone is unique in terms of what they perceive to be to be enjoyable, and from what you are saying with being very unsure and a year of no consequences I would definitely send the resume out and see what comes up. It is not true that there are not interesting software jobs out there -- there are incredibly interesting data visualization and optimization problems. And machine learning questions anywhere you look in a major city. You may have to continue to put your resume out for 3-6 months before you hit on a job you like. Don't take the first one if it is not interesting to you. What is important anywhere you go is that you take time to build quality relationships with people who can support you in the thing you are most interested in. If someone above you asks you an easy questions and wants to take credit for it -- this is not a bad situation. If you are emotionally intelligent you can build on this relationship to negotiate responsibilities you enjoy. Find some people you admire and send them emails about how they got started in their field (without even necessarily asking for a job). They are usually incredibly responsive. Do what you love.
Click to expand...

What you have written is incredibly rational, but it seems incredibly naive. The problem with the tech industry is that there are no controls on it right now, and currently people who are hiring are more interested in "experience" rather than a solid background in Computer Science and a proveable track record successful projects. People with an excellent degree, prior research, and a solid work history will get passed over because they didn't happen to have "Spring" experience written on their resume. It is so ridiculous that even if you know Java, but have never used Spring (a Java API) you won't get hired. That is absolute ignorance at it's finest.

You say it may take 3 - 6 months, but if you don't have relevant professional experience in what really excites you then you can try for years and you will never get it. I have a special hate in my heart for "Tech managers" because many of them do not know the technology and cannot make informed decisions on who to hire or how to manage a team of individuals who are way more qualified than they are.

As for taking credit for my work, I will never allow someone to do that in order to further their career while pushing mine backwards. You may see it as building quality relationships, but I have yet to meet a manager who is interested in helping anyone but themselves climb the ladder. The corporate world is vicious, and the second you make someone look bad because you reveal how incompetent they are, just by doing your own job, suddenly they come after you and you find yourself out of a job if you aren't savvy enough to protect yourself.

I used to think like you, but after 10 different jobs where nine of them were like what I just described above, and only one being an exceptional experience, I came to the conclusion that the vast majority of the industry is pretty effed up. If you want to have fun and enjoy tech, go into start up companies. There is no stability, but there are usually great ideas, young people excited about what they are doing, and a sense of urgency to make something happen. Big corporations are intolerable.
 
Shjanzey said:
What you have written is incredibly rational, but it seems incredibly naive. The problem with the tech industry is that there are no controls on it right now, and currently people who are hiring are more interested in "experience" rather than a solid background in Computer Science and a proveable track record successful projects. People with an excellent degree, prior research, and a solid work history will get passed over because they didn't happen to have "Spring" experience written on their resume. It is so ridiculous that even if you know Java, but have never used Spring (a Java API) you won't get hired. That is absolute ignorance at it's finest.

You say it may take 3 - 6 months, but if you don't have relevant professional experience in what really excites you then you can try for years and you will never get it. I have a special hate in my heart for "Tech managers" because many of them do not know the technology and cannot make informed decisions on who to hire or how to manage a team of individuals who are way more qualified than they are.

As for taking credit for my work, I will never allow someone to do that in order to further their career while pushing mine backwards. You may see it as building quality relationships, but I have yet to meet a manager who is interested in helping anyone but themselves climb the ladder. The corporate world is vicious, and the second you make someone look bad because you reveal how incompetent they are, just by doing your own job, suddenly they come after you and you find yourself out of a job if you aren't savvy enough to protect yourself.

I used to think like you, but after 10 different jobs where nine of them were like what I just described above, and only one being an exceptional experience, I came to the conclusion that the vast majority of the industry is pretty effed up. If you want to have fun and enjoy tech, go into start up companies. There is no stability, but there are usually great ideas, young people excited about what they are doing, and a sense of urgency to make something happen. Big corporations are intolerable.
Click to expand...

I feel you that corporations are difficult and might not be my ideal job setting. This is not the only job setting. I also agree you must have the relevant professional experience and training beforehand. I am not naive. My dad had his company pay him to get a master's at Hopkins while he was working on cutting edge research. My contacts from CS graduate studies have the time to travel and do training in various cities whenever they feel like it. Their skills are always marketable. My dad and my brother (also in CS) are both very even tempered and risk-averse. I have a very hot temper when it comes to injustice and need to learn to take my own advice regarding some of these strategic leadership comments I provided. However I really think in this scenario where someone above you takes credit for something you helped with, you are in the bargaining position. The strategic move would be not ever to call someone out as being incompetent in front of others. The reason is that others will be afraid to ask you for help in the future, and that person specifically will no longer want you to succeed. If the person is really incompetent and the relationship is not helpful to you, the best thing to do would be to be less helpful to him in the future. Alternatively, you can speak with the boss privately about how you can get the credit you deserve, the responsibilities you desire, and how you both can benefit from the partnership.
 
chipwhitley said:
What sort of controls would you want to see?
Click to expand...

Ideally a qualification test like the Professional Engineer test that most other engineering disciplines have to take. Is it stands now, most people doing "programming" didn't even study computer science. The demand is so great that you can basically lie on your resume and get hired. Many of those people then get on the job experience and are able to pump out barely workeable code and have no idea how to track down a bug, or write a reasonable data structure.
 
Also good idea to tailor your resume to highlight the skills you have relevant to the job, every time you apply to a job. I might consider learning the API required before you apply for the job, if it is specifically listed on advertisement. However I think at a place you really want to work, you will not see very many incompetent people around, because there would not be huge tolerance for this.
 
Shjanzey said:
Ideally a qualification test like the Professional Engineer test that most other engineering disciplines have to take. Is it stands now, most people doing "programming" didn't even study computer science. The demand is so great that you can basically lie on your resume and get hired. Many of those people then get on the job experience and are able to pump out barely workeable code and have no idea how to track down a bug, or write a reasonable data structure.
Click to expand...
Looks like it's going in the other direction, now that President Obama has announced an initiative to not require degrees for programming jobs...
 
There is a difference between coding and solving cool problems. To do the latter you need advanced training
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Emily_N_C
MD Need Guidance on Transferring into a U.S. Medical Program after Studying Abroad
Replies
3
Views
1K
Dral
Dral
Mr.Smile12
MD & DO EM leaving ERAS? Watch this space.
Replies
0
Views
658
Mr.Smile12
Mr.Smile12
C
Advice on Choosing a School
Replies
5
Views
743
Dr. Robb Bassett
Dr. Robb Bassett
J
Two Medical Leaves - Do I Have a Future?
Replies
5
Views
1K
pazzer2
P
A
Advice on my unique situation
Replies
17
Views
3K
Anonymous2399
A
Top