Gunners

[Anastasis]

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I haven't started my premed pre-rec classes (I will start in the fall). Since my decision to go to med school was made very recently, when I was doing my undergrad I didn't have much contact with pre-med people.

Are the stories about "gunners" true? I really don't understand the mindset that leads a person to back-stab other people but I guess it isn't outside the realm of possibility.

Does anyone have any stories/personal experiences to share?

Thanks

 

[Revolution #9]

Gunners are more of a problem IN medical school than before hand. In most of my pre-req classes, the only way that someone could sabotage another person would be to check out all the books related to the course in the library and not return them until the end of the semester, regardless of the enourmous fees. Don't worry about your lecture classes, just be suspicious when someone is overly willing to share their "data" with you in a lab class. Either they are very nice, or they are trying to screw you.

 

[amnesia]

that's harsh...

I think it begins at the highschool level, though... in AP Biology, there are a few kids who take multiple copies of the lab and distribute one with bogus answers for other kids to copy...

it's funny... yet sad.

 

[Revolution #9]

Amnesia - is your avatar from Mario 2?

 

[RJSpaulding]

Kind of makes you wonder why those types of people want to become doctors....I thought helping others was the whole "mindset."

 

[lightnk102]

Here's an example of gunner-ism.

When I was in high school, I was having trouble with an AP Chemistry concept. I asked the girl beside me whether she could explain it to me, and she enthusiastically agreed. We decided to stay after class the next day for a few minutes to clarify a few points. The next day, she frostily told me that she'd changed her mind about helping me. Because we were too close in class rank.

Other more common examples from undergrad are people refusing to share notes if you missed a day of class because you were sick. This happens more often at schools that grade by the bell curve, which puts you in direct competition with your peers. It no longer matters what score you get, only what you get in relation to everyone else.

Gunnerism has a negative stigma to it. But you could argue sanely that it's just "competitive spirit".

 

[Crake]

This depends on where you go to school. Certain schools are chock-full of gunnerism (i.e. Columbia) others don't have many gunners at all (i.e. Providence). However, I sorta define gunners a bit different than some others do on this board. I mean, the people who check out books and hide journal articles are not just gunners, they're straight up douches (douche-gunners), doing something they KNOW is unethical. On the other hand, you have the ultra-comptetitive students that will do almost anything to get a good grade, but won't actively go out of their way to harm you. This includes the people who argue with the TA for extra points on their lab, even when they know they have the wrong answer (this happens all the time; most TA's will just give in rather than deal with the hassle) as well as the people who go to office hours all the time, not because they have questions, but just because it makes them look good. Also, some students fabricate intelligent sounding questions to ask during lecture or after class (for example, taking some sidepoint out of the textbook and formulating a question out of it). Real extreme gunners fabricate followup questions to their already fabricated intelligent-sounding questions. Obviously, they are trying to impress the professor with these games, and some are very very adept at it (note: this annoys non-gunner students the most because it is so obvious to the rest of the class). Some gunners are very very quiet too. For example, these people thrive in labs; they'll do minimal work, sorta evesdrop on everyone else, but pretend they don't know anything. In the end, these people usually end up with an A because they just hang out in the background while everyone else does all the work, so they have more time for the writeup. This really annoys me, but that's just the way it goes. Gunners also do non-sensical things, like go to their TA office hours (you know you're a gunner if you go to BOTH your TA and your professor's office hours. Note: if you're too dumb to understand lewis structures with only a lecture, recitation, and professor's office hours, you need to seriously reconsider your career choice!)

In the end, there's gunners and then there's animals. I like this distinction. I consider the person who studies for 12 hours on saturday and sunday in the library an animal, not a gunner. Truth be told, I actually respect this person, as do most premeds. Of course, if said animal is riding the adderoll wave, then they're just a gunner--it doesn't take any discipline to pop a pill.

Animals will usually help you out with your work (some are out and out showoffs, but then again they deserve to be), gunners will refuse to help you, often pretending they don't know the answer (but really because you're close to them in rank), and the douche-gunners who hide books, etc., will give you false information in order to throw you off.

 

[Anastasis]

Here's an example of gunner-ism.

When I was in high school, I was having trouble with an AP Chemistry concept. I asked the girl beside me whether she could explain it to me, and she enthusiastically agreed. We decided to stay after class the next day for a few minutes to clarify a few points. The next day, she frostily told me that she'd changed her mind about helping me. Because we were too close in class rank.

That is quite possibly the worse thing I have ever heard. How selfish can one person be?

I can see the distinction between a gunner and an animal (I would like to believe that I'll be an animal once I start taking classes again) and I completely respect those people.

How do people respond to gunners? Just try to stay out of their way - sounds like if that is already someone's perspective there isn't much you can do about it.

 

[QofQuimica]

How do people respond to gunners? Just try to stay out of their way - sounds like if that is already someone's perspective there isn't much you can do about it.

Yes, I think that is the best way to handle it. The kids I went to high school with were so competitive that even the teachers got involved, trying to affect the outcome of who would be class valedictorian. I dropped one class and refused to take another to avoid a teacher who was out to nail me, and at least one other student had to do the same thing. So it was an early lesson in politics. Life is full of politics, unfortunately.

 

[Haybrant]

im glad people are using this term animal alot more; its funny how terminology makes a difference to ones mindset. I look back and undergrad and realize i was def. an animal, but before that term was out and had a definition, there was a little voice in the back of my head to watch out for studying too much in med school b.c id be percieved as a gunner.
An interesting parallel: I was reading something from a health policy prof at stanford who argues that a major problem with healthcare is the terminology that we use, and that the national debate is stifled b.c the terms are inaccurate and confining.
Anyway, to the OP, if you want to stay away from gunners be independent and dont interact with too many of your ugrad classmates outside of class. The people i know that did this were always so miserable; my friends were in majors all over the place; life is more interesting that way too. I mean, being premed is really a waste anyway b.c you will learn so much of the stuff over again; its more enriching to interact with people outside the realm of medicine/pre-medicine as a ugrad.

 

[Anastasis]

Anyway, to the OP, if you want to stay away from gunners be independent and dont interact with too many of your ugrad classmates outside of class. The people i know that did this were always so miserable; my friends were in majors all over the place; life is more interesting that way too. I mean, being premed is really a waste anyway b.c you will learn so much of the stuff over again; its more enriching to interact with people outside the realm of medicine/pre-medicine as a ugrad.

I figure that won't be too hard since I'm a non-trad and attending a new university. I really have no desire to make friends, just get in, get the classes over with and move on with my life.

Wow - that makes me sound a bit like a gunner huh?

 

[amnesia]

Amnesia - is your avatar from Mario 2?

yes

 

[Anastasis]

I have to admit that I was hoping for a deluge of stories about gunners getting their comeupance. I guess it's really not as big a problem as I thought.

 

[DianaLynne]

Oooh, gunners getting comeuppance, that'd be cool. I wish I was an animal, I'm just too lazy. What do you call someone who's lazy but still gets good grades?

 

[lightnk102]

Oooh, gunners getting comeuppance, that'd be cool. I wish I was an animal, I'm just too lazy. What do you call someone who's lazy but still gets good grades?

Smart.

 

[oompa loompa]

In the end, there's gunners and then there's animals. I like this distinction. I consider the person who studies for 12 hours on saturday and sunday in the library an animal, not a gunner. Truth be told, I actually respect this person, as do most premeds. Of course, if said animal is riding the adderoll wave, then they're just a gunner--it doesn't take any discipline to pop a pill.

Animals will usually help you out with your work (some are out and out showoffs, but then again they deserve to be), gunners will refuse to help you, often pretending they don't know the answer (but really because you're close to them in rank), and the douche-gunners who hide books, etc., will give you false information in order to throw you off.

Hmm, I must be an animal (I had no idea there existed this term until reading this). An animal that is taken advantage by gunners! I take awesome notes, and don't mind lending them out to friends. But yes, it does bother me sometimes b/c I know they are smarter than me, and, + my notes, will end up doing better. My memory capacity seems to be abnormally small or something, so I tend to do worse than others would expect from my studying habits. Sad but true. I wonder if I will survive medical school.

 

[DocStretch]

I mean, the people who check out books and hide journal articles are not just gunners, they're straight up douches (douche-gunners), doing something they KNOW is unethical.

A "douche gunner"? That is one of the funniest, most applicable, terms I have ever read

This is also the first time I've ever heard of the term "animal" and I think it's a good one. You could probably further differentiate within the animal kingdom into those who enjoy and see the mutual benefit to cooperating with others (think wolves) or those who prefer to go it alone (sharks) or maybe even consider the dreaded sharks with lasers attached to their heads (animal gunners).

 

[Avenue Q]

so where are the gunner-free, low gunner precentage schools?

I want to go somewhere people are nice to each other. Does not having grades help?

I am really spoiled by my undergrad pre-med experience. No gunners. No one even knows who the pre-meds are. after hearing from friends at other schools about how much they hate the pre-meds, i feel very very lucky.

 

[NerdBoy]

Hmm, I must be an animal (I had no idea there existed this term until reading this). An animal that is taken advantage by gunners! I take awesome notes, and don't mind lending them out to friends. But yes, it does bother me sometimes b/c I know they are smarter than me, and, + my notes, will end up doing better. My memory capacity seems to be abnormally small or something, so I tend to do worse than others would expect from my studying habits. Sad but true. I wonder if I will survive medical school.

Your post is depressing. 🙁
Cheer up some! You'll do fine. 👍 🙂

 

[UT_mikie]

I remember I was taking gen chem lab and I once asked this girl if I could compare data with her before class (NOT copy her data). She gave me this really ugly look said "no" and then walked away.

Now I'll admit, I'm kind of a space cadet sometimes so I may not come off as the absolute brightest guy, but come on I'm not a mooch.

Later I find out she makes a 'C' and I got the 2nd highest grade in the class.

I REALLY hope that in med school its just a myth that people will give messed up data just to screw with the average in the class. Why would you want the people you spend 4 years with to hate you? And worse yet, what if you do all that backstabbing and you end up not doing that well?

 

[LVDoc]

Anyway, to the OP, if you want to stay away from gunners be independent and dont interact with too many of your ugrad classmates outside of class.

This is quite possibly some of the worst advice I have ever read. That's the way to stay away from gunners? Nice. That's just another way to become even more anti-social. I had never heard of the term "gunner" before, until I found this forum. The people that always irritated me (and still do) were the ones in class that sat in the very front rows, asked pointless questions of the professor during lecture (to which they knew the answer to), went to every single office hour possible, and then when you try to even say "hi" to them, they ignore your very existence. These are the people I deal with every day; a bunch of egotistical punks. Nontraditional or not, if you feel that all you must do is "get in and get out," that is a sure way for you to be labeled a "gunner" by your own fellow classmates.

The few people I know who do socialize with others within their own classes, and within their own major? Very laid-back down-to-earth folks. We grade every class on a curve system here, and at the point when you become friends with another classmate, there is no competition between the two of you; you both want to do well, and you both will help each other attain that outcome.

Avoiding your classmates is not the way to go. You come off as a jerk or an egotistical snob. Simple as that.

 

[scrappysurfer]

my entire college education was graded on the curve, but i never saw an instance of sabotage...i did see a lot of students pitifully begging TAs for more points

wow, time spent MAKING UP DATA to give to other students could probably have been put to better use studying to obviate the need for the sabotage.

or even better, drinking beer or surfing.

as for the term "animal," i have never heard it before? i definitley respect these people, but from my experience it doesn't work very well. i also seem to pick up %50 more info on a full night's sleep. i am productive in spurts:

swim
study
eat
study
run
study
eat with friends
work
study
eat more
sleep 8 hours

this seems to provide both better retention and a better quality of life

 

[Docta "O"]

"One cannot be a true believer until he wants for his brother what he wants for himself", common Islamic proverb, seems to be applicable in this situation. Leave gunners to their own doing, I don't see how anybody can be satisfied with having to worry about their rank in relation to everybody around them for all their lives.

 

[Quynh2007]

.

 

[Haybrant]

This is quite possibly some of the worst advice I have ever read.

The few people I know who do socialize with others within their own classes, and within their own major? Very laid-back down-to-earth folks. We grade every class on a curve system here, and at the point when you become friends with another classmate, there is no competition between the two of you; you both want to do well, and you both will help each other attain that outcome.

Avoiding your classmates is not the way to go. You come off as a jerk or an egotistical snob. Simple as that.

dont be antisocial, but you dont have to have close relationships with premeds outside of the premed scene. Go meet people who actually do things for the love of it; are there premeds like this; yes, some, but many are not. Be well rounded as an undergrad and interact with people outside of the premed track and you wont get caught up with all this so called gunnerism

 

[hnbui]

gunners are the stupid jackasses who ask you for help but then when you ask them they either dismiss your plea or lie and say they don't know it.

 

[LVDoc]

you're a *******; dont be antisocial, but you dont have to have close relationships with premeds outside of the premed scene. Go meet people who actually do things for the love of it; are there premeds like this; yes, some, but many are not. Be well rounded as an undergrad and interact with people outside of the premed track and you wont get caught up with all this so called gunnerism

I don't believe I actually called you a name in my previous post. I also am sure I did not specifically say this fellow should cut off interaction with people outside of the pre-med scene. There should be no conscious effort on his/her part to socialize with others; it should be a natural thing. By not talking to your fellow classmates, you are being anti-social (towards a specific group). I don't understand how anyone could dispute that.

More people than you would imagine are well-rounded. As an engineering friend of mine once said, not only do people in the sciences understand the mechanics behind their own discipline, but many of them also have a fundamental knowledge of politics, historical events, etc. The point is, being pre-med does not mean you can't be well-rounded.

I am not going to start ragging on other majors here, but I will tell you one thing, I at least have some comfort that my own fellow classmates can understand the intensity of the work that we have to do, as well as the stresses associated with it. It is nice to be able to talk about these things with others once in a blue moon. Explaining this to a linguistics major for example, I do not think I would be able to get my point across.

One last thing. Majoring in a liberal arts discipline does not mean a person is well-rounded. Actually, that's not even close to what I've seen. I guess it depends on your definition, however.

 

[Anastasis]

This is quite possibly some of the worst advice I have ever read. That's the way to stay away from gunners? Nice. That's just another way to become even more anti-social. I had never heard of the term "gunner" before, until I found this forum. The people that always irritated me (and still do) were the ones in class that sat in the very front rows, asked pointless questions of the professor during lecture (to which they knew the answer to), went to every single office hour possible, and then when you try to even say "hi" to them, they ignore your very existence. These are the people I deal with every day; a bunch of egotistical punks. Nontraditional or not, if you feel that all you must do is "get in and get out," that is a sure way for you to be labeled a "gunner" by your own fellow classmates.

Avoiding your classmates is not the way to go. You come off as a jerk or an egotistical snob. Simple as that.

You know - it is possible to be civil, even friendly, to people to your classes without socializing with them outside of class. You know, Civility? Where you don't call random people names?

Besides, I think most people would agree that just being anti-social does not make you a gunner. There needs to be a certain level of willingness to screw other people over.

 

[LVDoc]

You know - it is possible to be civil, even friendly, to people to your classes without socializing with them outside of class. You know, Civility? Where you don't call random people names?

Besides, I think most people would agree that just being anti-social does not make you a gunner. There needs to be a certain level of willingness to screw other people over.

Of course. It is possible to be civil with anyone, anywhere. Based on my own experience, the majority of people that were in my classes were anti-social, or refused to talk with their own classmates. I didn't define them as gunners, but I did not like their attitude much either. My classes were very very competitive, and with less than 15% of the students able to receive A's (with 200+ students), this made for quite a disturbing atmosphere. I don't call random people names, by the way. I made a lovely generalization to illustrate an example to you, that this is what you might be considered if you choose not to socialize with any of your own classmates, inside or outside of class - it is that "get in, get out" attitude that pervades every classroom I've sat in since stepping foot in this institution.

Being anti-social definitely may not characterize a person as a gunner, but it is sure likely to be one the common qualities they seem to possess.

 

[Anastasis]

Of course. It is possible to be civil with anyone, anywhere. Based on my own experience, the majority of people that were in my classes were anti-social, or refused to talk with their own classmates. I didn't define them as gunners, but I did not like their attitude much either. My classes were very very competitive, and with less than 15% of the students able to receive A's (with 200+ students), this made for quite a disturbing atmosphere. I don't call random people names, by the way. I made a lovely generalization to illustrate an example to you, that this is what you might be considered if you choose not to socialize with any of your own classmates, inside or outside of class - it is that "get in, get out" attitude that pervades every classroom I've sat in since stepping foot in this institution.

Being anti-social definitely may not characterize a person as a gunner, but it is sure likely to be one the common qualities they seem to possess.

No - sorry you didn't call me a name - I spliced two different posts together in my head andso thought you did. (And there's no excuse since it's 11 am here).

(btw, you edited that post really fast and totally confused me)

Yes - I agree that being anti-social is a characteristic of a gunner - not the defining one but still.

Yes - I agree that at my ugrad I did not like those people that were really anti-social in the class.

And I think the point you're trying to make is that I might be characterized as a gunner if I appear to be anti-social.
Alright - I'll agree some people will think that.

But I don't think I will deserve that just for being anti-social. Nor do I think what I said about getting in/getting out characterizes me as anti-social. But we'll agree to disagree about that.


And I have a gunner story!! Provided by my flatmate:
When she was in Gen Chem Lab, a girl in the class got way different answers than everyone else in the class. The girl was so convinced that there was no way she could have done the experiment wrong that she refused to let anyone look at her work afraid they might steal the "right" answers.
Well she was wrong - so not only did fail that lab report she got called out by the TA in the lab as a selfish idiot.

That's what I call gunners getting their comeupance.

 

[roja]

I am not going to start ragging on other majors here, but I will tell you one thing, I at least have some comfort that my own fellow classmates can understand the intensity of the work that we have to do, as well as the stresses associated with it. It is nice to be able to talk about these things with others once in a blue moon. Explaining this to a linguistics major for example, I do not think I would be able to get my point across.

One last thing. Majoring in a liberal arts discipline does not mean a person is well-rounded. Actually, that's not even close to what I've seen. I guess it depends on your definition, however.

Majoring in anyting doesn't gaurantee being well rounded. Perhaps you need to get out more. I have a film degree. Worked in film for several years after graduating magna cum laude at the age of 20. I had a 3.9 gpa in my core science classes from a steeply scientific school while working on a MA in aesthetic studies.

Don't assume that medical school (premed) is the only thing that requires significant sacrifice and stress. Getting an engineering degree or a PhD in linguistics is VERY difficult and competition for jobs is exceptionally tough.

there are definately things unique to medicine. Things unique to med school adn things unique to residency.

One of the most important things in medicine is to break the habits of making broad generalizations based on your own life. It is often incredibly difficult to seperate your own assumptions and experiences from your patients but you really can't imagine the incredible vast expanse of people out there. Its hard as this is intrinsic to human nature. but its never to early to start.


to the op: As an obvious non-traditional, you can avoid gunners in a couple of ways wihtout alienating yoruself. simplyl don't get sucked into the mentality. But don't avoid making friends. some of my best friends are from med school and residency. And medicine is a very social and political world.

 

[LVDoc]

No - sorry you didn't call me a name - I spliced two different posts together in my head andso thought you did. (And there's no excuse since it's 11 am here).

(btw, you edited that post really fast and totally confused me)

Heh. Definitely not a problem. Don't even sweat it 🙂

And I think the point you're trying to make is that I might be characterized as a gunner if I appear to be anti-social.
Alright - I'll agree some people will think that.

But I don't think I will deserve that just for being anti-social. Nor do I think what I said about getting in/getting out characterizes me as anti-social. But we'll agree to disagree about that.

I think you pretty much got the gist of my point. I don't think you should be characterized as a gunner for that either, but I merely meant that there is a possibility some of your classmates could view you (or anyone else, for that matter) as that. You're right though, it doesn't depend on only one thing. Gunners often exhibit a variety of qualities, but the ones I'm so used to seeing not only choose not to interact with others, they come off cold when you try to talk to them. It really is an individual case-by-case basis. If you're civil with your classmates during lectures, I don't think you should have a problem. For the other people though, that totally refuse to interact with their own classmates, and act as if they don't exist either, well, that is not to appealing to say the least.

And I have a gunner story!! Provided by my flatmate:
When she was in Gen Chem Lab, a girl in the class got way different answers than everyone else in the class. The girl was so convinced that there was no way she could have done the experiment wrong that she refused to let anyone look at her work afraid they might steal the "right" answers.
Well she was wrong - so not only did fail that lab report she got called out by the TA in the lab as a selfish idiot.

That's what I call gunners getting their comeupance.

I kinda feel bad that she straight up failed it, but at least she knows now to ask for help! (And to not be so stubborn!) lol.

This actually reminds me of a similar story. I had a "friend" once who during preparing for a test the night before was confused about a certain topic. I hadn't come to lecture that day, so luckily the guy lent me his notes on this experiment the professor went over. Anyhow, after reading through it, it was so messy that I had no clue what he wrote. I ended up doing a bit of my own research online and found some info on the exact same topic, to which I corrected his notes, and he literally questioned me at least ten times on whether or not I had gotten the information from a reputable source or that it was completely wrong because he got his notes straight from the professor and that she was, dare I say it, "God." Well, I think he still ended up doing fine, and this topic only accounted for one measily question, but I still grilled it through his head by the time I went to sleep.

 

[LVDoc]

Don't assume that medical school (premed) is the only thing that requires significant sacrifice and stress. Getting an engineering degree or a PhD in linguistics is VERY difficult and competition for jobs is exceptionally tough.

Thanks for offering your insight, Roja. I agree with most everything you said, but I do want to clarify that in no way did I say engineering was not a difficult field. I wouldn't be able to do engineering even if my life depended on it, and I probably wouldn't be able to draw either. I did not mention science so as to exclude everything outside of the pre-medical realm, not at all. Getting a Ph.D. in linguistics, I believe, would probably be very different from getting a B.A. in linguistics.

Again, this is based on my own experiences. At my own institution, the average GPA of science & engineering majors is 2.8. The average GPA of all liberal arts majors hovers around 3.8. There is a huge difference. These statistics are not out of thin-air either. They were confirmed by the school, the departments, the professors, and published within the local school paper, etc. Some of the professors' viewpoints were very interesting, especially in the way they would judge a person's equivalency of knowledge depending on whether or not the student was in a science or liberal arts discipline.

 

[Anastasis]

This actually reminds me of a similar story. I had a "friend" once who during preparing for a test the night before was confused about a certain topic. I hadn't come to lecture that day, so luckily the guy lent me his notes on this on experiment the professors went over. Anyhow, after reading through it, it was so messy that I had no clue what he wrote. I ended up doing a bit of my own research online and found some info on the exact same topic, to which I corrected his notes, and he literally questioned me at least ten times on whether or not I had gotten the information from a reputable source or that it was completely wrong because he got his notes straight from the professor and that she was, dare I say it, "God." Well, I think he still ended up doing fine, and this topic only accounted for one measily question, but I still grilled it through his head by the time I went to sleep.

Wow - really sad that they feel the need to be that paranoid - but I'm sure it's because previous experience has taught them that people are out to screw them over. And it's really sad they think the Prof is "god".

 

[LVDoc]

I have a story that goes all the way back to HS - this guy at my high school was so horrible that he actually called the foundation that I got my scholarship from (a full ride to two people from our home town) and told them I cheated on my SATs.

Yeah, that was nice. 🙄

That is mest up!!!!!!!!! OMG. I can't believe anyone would do that. Did anyone reprimand him? Or did he never get caught?

 

[Anastasis]

...

 

[Anastasis]

I didn't lose the scholarship though!! Just to clarify.

 

[LVDoc]

I didn't lose the scholarship though!! Just to clarify.

lol. I figured you didn't! It's amazing what some people can get away with though (and it all starts with "knowing" someone... 😛 ).

I am sure that little stunt caused quite a commotion though.

 

[g3pro]

yes

Are you kidding?? It looks like Tails from Sonic 2.

 

[ElKapitan]

I know it has already been said, but I too hate the people who quibble for points on quizzes, exams or lab grades. I think only a valid argument like, that is the wrong answer, let me read this paragraph from the book that contradicts you. I always wanted to smack those people in the head, and scream, “shut up, you douche!” I don’t think they are necessarily gunners, sometimes they are just dumb. I am not saying I am a genius, just that I am not dumb.

I wasn’t pre-med in undergrad, because I thought most of the kids were delusional. I remember one vivid conversation, about someone saying rather lackadaisically, “gee gosh, it is going to be hard applying to medical school with C’s in general chemistry, not to mention I barely passed Physics.” Our pre-med advisor overheard and he actually rolled his eyes. These people are living in a different reality.

Perhaps we could have three categories, the gunners (or gunner douches), the animals, and the space cadets (for those who are clueless that they are screwed).

 

[Aero047]

"One cannot be a true believer until he wants for his brother what he wants for himself", common Islamic proverb, seems to be applicable in this situation. Leave gunners to their own doing, I don't see how anybody can be satisfied with having to worry about their rank in relation to everybody around them for all their lives.

P. Muhammad SAW was a generous guy. Definitely applies here.

 

[Anastasis]

Perhaps we could have three categories, the gunners (or gunner douches), the animals, and the space cadets (for those who are clueless that they are screwed).

I got a space cadet story then:
A guy who lived in my dorm freshman year told me about this: He and another friend met up with some people from their Org. Chem I class to study for the final. Just working from the top down he said something about benzene. One of the girls studying with them goes: "That's the one with Carbon right?"


She was pre-med too.

🙄

 

[nimer1456]

I know it has already been said, but I too hate the people who quibble for points on quizzes, exams or lab grades. I think only a valid argument like, that is the wrong answer, let me read this paragraph from the book that contradicts you. I always wanted to smack those people in the head, and scream, “shut up, you douche!” I don’t think they are necessarily gunners, sometimes they are just dumb. I am not saying I am a genius, just that I am not dumb.

I wasn’t pre-med in undergrad, because I thought most of the kids were delusional. I remember one vivid conversation, about someone saying rather lackadaisically, “gee gosh, it is going to be hard applying to medical school with C’s in general chemistry, not to mention I barely passed Physics.” Our pre-med advisor overheard and he actually rolled his eyes. These people are living in a different reality.

Perhaps we could have three categories, the gunners (or gunner douches), the animals, and the space cadets (for those who are clueless that they are screwed).

I TA gen chem.... deal with all three of these types of kids. The "space cadet" pre meds amuse me. I look at them when they ask me questions sometimes and wonder how they are going to make it to med school.

I cant think of any of the classic "space cadet" moments right now but if I do I will post them; silly kids.

 

[ElKapitan]

I TA gen chem.... deal with all three of these types of kids. The "space cadet" pre meds amuse me. I look at them when they ask me questions sometimes and wonder how they are going to make it to med school.

I cant think of any of the classic "space cadet" moments right now but if I do I will post them; silly kids.

Another trend I discovered with the "space cadet" kids was that their parents wanted them to be doctors. I felt they were under a lot of pressure, because they always talked about how their parents would be mad about their bad grades, from college!!! There were other things I heard, about their parents wanting them to be doctors and what not, the details are eluding me.

 

[roja]

Thanks for offering your insight, Roja. I agree with most everything you said, but I do want to clarify that in no way did I say engineering was not a difficult field. I wouldn't be able to do engineering even if my life depended on it, and I probably wouldn't be able to draw either. I did not mention science so as to exclude everything outside of the pre-medical realm, not at all. Getting a Ph.D. in linguistics, I believe, would probably be very different from getting a B.A. in linguistics.

Again, this is based on my own experiences. At my own institution, the average GPA of science & engineering majors is 2.8. The average GPA of all liberal arts majors hovers around 3.8. There is a huge difference. These statistics are not out of thin-air either. They were confirmed by the school, the departments, the professors, and published within the local school paper, etc. Some of the professors' viewpoints were very interesting, especially in the way they would judge a person's equivalency of knowledge depending on whether or not the student was in a science or liberal arts discipline.

The bias is that you are only judging based on your school. And premeds are notorious for assuming that because liberal arts students get good grades it much because the classes are easy. I remember scratching my head at a premed student in my film theory class. hard class with an average of about 75. Premed thought he would ace it. hardly passed. I tutored him for hours.


And as someone who taught MCAT prep for 5 years, all sections, I saw premeds come face to face with the reality that liberal arts can be very difficult.

Its all relative. People tend to migrate to what they enjoy and can study.

Its also very dependent on how may hours you take. I took 18-21 hours every semester. 12-15 in the summer.

I personally believe that students nowadays, especially premeds are SEVERELY handicapped because thye do not take enough liberal arts courses. They are in general clueless to sociology, theory, etc. Much like calculus, there are thought process that are learned in these classes.

Medicine is not about regurgitation of facts. It is truly an art form (truth in cliche's). You need to be able to really use BOTH sides of your brain. 🙂

 

[firex]

Funny link below about liberal arts vs. engineering:
Take Your Humanities Buddy to School Day

BTW, people always debate whether it's harder to be engineering, science, or liberal arts major in an effort to validate the worth of their education. Smart people should be able to handle all courses of study easily, so no need to argue 😀

 

[veridisquo]

Wow. I read all of the posts in this thread and feel incredibly lucky. My school isn't competitive at all. Very few premeds make A's in pre-req courses. A lot of them are surprisingly apathetic. I remember a lot of comments from some of my peers in gen chem and bio like "I don't care what my grade is; I just need at least a C so I pass." 🙄 There are no curves in bio, chem, and physics at my school either. I suppose it isn't a surprise that the acceptance rate of premeds who are accepted into med school isn't very high.

I'm also surprised to hear about the students who purposely give out inaccurate data in labs. I have been very fortunate. In gen chem for instance, everyone would compare data and help each other out with solving the equations, performing procedures, etc. In gen chem II, when 3 of the 10 labs were computer based titrations, a few of us, actually re-did the labs at home (the program we used was available online) to make sure everything was accurate and shared the corrected data with almost everyone else to make sure everyone did well.

I don't know if you would classify these students as gunners, but I have definitely come across cocky students who like to make comments to their equally-jackassed friends (loud enough for others to hear) about how stupid some people are because of their questions. These are also the people who ask "intelligent" questions during lecture just to show off. 🙄

We definitely have a lot of those students who whine/argue over a few points on a lab or lab quiz. It's irritating, especially when you see how poorly they treat the TA (example-- make fun of their ethnicity, tell them they need to speak English, etc.), but if anything, this makes the TA less inclined to help them out later gradewise.

 

[ElKapitan]

Wow. I read all of the posts in this thread and feel incredibly lucky. My school isn't competitive at all. Very few premeds make A's in pre-req courses. A lot of them are surprisingly apathetic. I remember a lot of comments from some of my peers in gen chem and bio like "I don't care what my grade is; I just need at least a C so I pass." 🙄 There are no curves in bio, chem, and physics at my school either. I suppose it isn't a surprise that the acceptance rate of premeds who are accepted into med school isn't very high.

I'm also surprised to hear about the students who purposely give out inaccurate data in labs. I have been very fortunate. In gen chem for instance, everyone would compare data and help each other out with solving the equations, performing procedures, etc. In gen chem II, when 3 of the 10 labs were computer based titrations, a few of us, actually re-did the labs at home (the program we used was available online) to make sure everything was accurate and shared the corrected data with almost everyone else to make sure everyone did well.

I don't know if you would classify these students as gunners, but I have definitely come across cocky students who like to make comments to their equally-jackassed friends (loud enough for others to hear) about how stupid some people are because of their questions. These are also the people who ask "intelligent" questions during lecture just to show off. 🙄

We definitely have a lot of those students who whine/argue over a few points on a lab or lab quiz. It's irritating, especially when you see how poorly they treat the TA (example-- make fun of their ethnicity, tell them they need to speak English, etc.), but if anything, this makes the TA less inclined to help them out later gradewise.

Making racist comments about a TA, regardless if the TA is a dick or not, that reigns supreme on douchebag behavior.

 

[Ross434]

Making racist comments about a TA, regardless if the TA is a dick or not, that reigns supreme on douchebag behavior.

I think its hilarious! because then the TA gives them bad grades and refuses to help them.

 

[veridisquo]

I just think the whole thing is mind-boggling.

The TA was tough; I can understand being frustrated. I was too. But when you want this woman to help you out, to give you two or three measly points that you don't necessarily deserve, you are not making the situation better by insulting her! Who would insult the person issuing your grades?! Especially when there is a fair degree of flexability in what accepted answers can be. 😱 why is this so hard to understand? what part of this isn't logical?

nevertheless, i've seen it happen time and time again.

and these racist remarks are coming from people who want to be doctors... damn.