How many surgical gunners do you see during MS1, and how many of them follow through?

[Doctoscope]

I had my first experience with a premed gunner today: during an anatomy lecture, someone was watching a surgery video on YouTube and telling people around them that they’re going to be doing that in 6 years. The professor just kind of laughed and told him he wishes her best of luck, but it was obvious the kid was kind of naive (she looked 18).

So I was wondering, what % of a typical MS1 class is one of those hardcore surgical gunners? And how many of them end up reaching their goal? I read surgery is a very self-selective field and not many people are actually interested in it. Is that true?

I guess the respect and rose-tinted view of surgeons are very attractive to younger students, but I wonder how many of them are aware of the brutal lifestyle and training required to become one.

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[zooted]

Around 21

 

[907914]

someone was watching a surgery video on YouTube and telling people around them that they’re going to be doing that in 6 years.

This is cringe....gah

 

[lull]

in 6 years.

LOL

 

[On_The_Way_Up]

lol 6 years? Best case scenario they're in their 2nd year of med school at that point. Most premeds don't go to medical school. And most medical students don't end up doing surgery. They're one of those naive freshmen. While volunteering at a hospital a couple of years ago I was with this high school senior who said she wanted to be a neurosurgeon someday. I just chuckled to myself and shifted the conservation to something else.

 

[Doctoscope]

LOL

Yeah, I asked her why 6 years, and she said "you pick your specialty of choice during your 3rd year based on your grades." Told her she needs to go through the Match to become a surgeon based on a lot more, and she said, word for word, "yeah but not all med schools are like that." lol.

 

[Pagan FutureDoc]

A lot more pre-step 1 than post

 

[907914]

A lot more pre-step 1 than post

When reality sets in

 

[Moko]

"yeah but not all med schools are like that."

She's right. Princeton Med has a curriculum like that.

 

[Doctoscope]

She's right. Princeton Med has a curriculum like that.

Damn, had no idea. So are Princeton med students guaranteed a residency spot in field X? Do they not participate in the Match?

 

[Doctoscope]

Damn, had no idea. So are Princeton med students guaranteed a residency spot in field X? Do they not participate in the Match?

I'm an idiot.... UC Berkeley med school definitely had a program like that too!

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I know a kid who said he wanted to be a Neurosurgeon in 2nd grade but he is a math major now

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I know a kid who said he wanted to be a Neurosurgeon in 2nd grade but he is a math major now

I majored in math and am a med student now. Your major doesn’t matter.

 

[deleted804295]

Isn't surgery relatively easier to get into compared to lifestyle specialties? Surgery has a pretty bad lifestyle if we're being completely honest.

 

[Cornfed101]

Isn't surgery relatively easier to get into compared to lifestyle specialties? Surgery has a pretty bad lifestyle if we're being completely honest.

General surgery, a little easier to get into. Surgical subspecialties, not easy to get into (orthopedic surgery). Some lifestyle specialties are surgical sub specialties (ophthalmology)

 

[deleted804295]

General surgery, a little easier to get into. Surgical subspecialties, not easy to get into (orthopedic surgery). Some lifestyle specialties are surgical sub specialties (ophthalmology)

Ah that's right. Optha seems like a very cushy specialty. Options for private practice and lessened hours.

But yeah, general surgery and some of the more intensive surgeries seem like a nightmare. Even the ones that every pre-med gunners want ie. Neuro and CV have terrible lifestyles.

 

[Cornfed101]

Even the ones that every pre-med gunners want ie. Neuro and CV have terrible lifestyles.

Yeah I don’t think many premeds know what it’s like to be called at 2am to do heart/brain surgery...

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

At orientation we legit had about 50-60 people (out of 115) stand up and say they wanted ortho or another super competitive surgical sub. Now that we are 3rd years there will likely only be about 4-7 of us that go into surgery. Maybe 10-12 of you include the OB cohort.

What you described isn’t a surgery gunner, they are just a delusional pre-med.

 

[deleted903608]

Granted I'm still only an M2 (so we haven't taken Step 1 yet which I'm sure will be a big factor) but the super hardcore surgery specialty gunners in my class (probably about 10% of which I am one.. oops) who said day one they only wanted surgery are still there, doing specialty specific research and hanging out in the OR and at grand rounds and stuff. To be really competitive for things like plastics, ortho, optho etc. you kinda have to start gunning M1/M2 in order to make the connections and do the research you need, otherwise you're playing catch up if you decide later on. Gen surg is definitely different though.

Tbh I kinda hate that so many people have started using the word "gunner" just for someone who has goals and works hard. Traditionally a gunner is someone who cuts others down to get where they want, which does not describe a single person in my class (yet.. we'll see how things pan out on the wards).

 

[907914]

Tbh I kinda hate that so many people have started using the word "gunner" just for someone who has goals and works hard.

Big mood #bless

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Tbh I kinda hate that so many people have started using the word "gunner" just for someone who has goals and works hard. Traditionally a gunner is someone who cuts others down to get where they want, which does not describe a single person in my class (yet.. we'll see how things pan out on the wards).

Yeah I hate that too. It’s now used to describe those of us who simply work really hard to get the pubs, grades and board scores needed to be competitive for competitive things.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Yeah I hate that too. It’s now used to describe those of us who simply work really hard to get the pubs, grades and board scores needed to be competitive for competitive things.

It's just a way for people who feel bad about their level of effort to cut down people working as hard as they think they should be working. If you're comfortable with what you're doing, you generally don't see any need to bring others down.

 

[Lawpy]

To be really competitive for things like plastics, ortho, optho etc. you kinda have to start gunning M1/M2 in order to make the connections and do the research you need, otherwise you're playing catch up if you decide later on.

It can be pretty risky though especially if Step 1 backfires. It's tragic for someone to spend first 2 years preparing specifically for a surgical sub only to end up with a low Step 1 that pretty much wipes out their chances. Hence i'd imagine Step 1 stress is especially high here

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

It can be pretty risky though especially if Step 1 backfires.

Not really. If Step 1 goes poorly then you currently have lots of time to reroute and change course.

 

[Lawpy]

Not really. If Step 1 goes poorly then you currently have lots of time to reroute and change course.

Yeah but it stinks to do so when the first 2 years were spent preparing for the competitive specialty

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Yeah but it stinks to do so when the first 2 years were spent preparing for the competitive specialty

It’s not like that effort is a waste. For a lot of the less competitive specialties, you can still use what you’ve done.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Yeah but it stinks to do so when the first 2 years were spent preparing for the competitive specialty

I mean, all it means is you won't be competitive for what you wanted to do. Other than that it's not like all that effort goes to waste...

 

[907914]

It’s not like that effort is a waste. For a lot of the less competitive specialties, you can still use what you’ve done.

When it comes time for the match, if one has 2 years of what appears to be gunning, ends up with a 221, and goes to the IM match, will programs dislike that?

Also, what are the alternatives for schools who take Step 1 after core clinical (at 3rd year)?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

When it comes time for the match, if one has 2 years of what appears to be gunning, ends up with a 221, and goes to the IM match, will programs dislike that?

No. You can still use that stuff. Research doesn’t always have to be in the field you’re applying to.

Also, what are the alternatives for schools who take Step 1 after core clinical (at 3rd year)?

Our school is like that. It’s the same as at other schools, just on a shorter timeline. Still totally doable. I know people who didn’t know they wanted things like neurosurgery or rads until early fourth year and still matched. So going down in competitiveness is even less of an issue.

 

[Lawpy]

It’s not like that effort is a waste. For a lot of the less competitive specialties, you can still use what you’ve done.

I mean, all it means is you won't be competitive for what you wanted to do. Other than that it's not like all that effort goes to waste...

Hmm ok that makes sense. I was thinking whether something like nsgy research in first 2 years looks bad to neuro/im or ortho looking bad to gen surg. But maybe not actually in the end

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Hmm ok that makes sense. I was thinking whether something like nsgy research in first 2 years looks bad to neuro/im or ortho looking bad to gen surg. But maybe not actually in the end

Yeah it's not.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I majored in math and am a med student now. Your major doesn’t matter.

I meant he decided not go into medicine at all.

 

[proudofmykids]

Damn, had no idea. So are Princeton med students guaranteed a residency spot in field X? Do they not participate in the Match?

Any Princeton Med School student gets to go anywhere they desire for residency... haha.

 

[sparkysparkyboomman]

My class doesn’t really have any gunners, but a handful have said they’re interested in surgery.
I guess only time will tell if they make it! But the people interested in surgery are killing it in anatomy lecture and lab so I’m rooting for them.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

So any premed who is interested in surgery is considered a gunner?

 

[sparkysparkyboomman]

So any premed who is interested in surgery is considered a gunner?

Not at all. It comes down to the way he/she comes off. I know of gunners at schools who are only interested in internal med

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

So any premed who is interested in surgery is considered a gunner?

A gunner is someone who sabotages others or cuts others down to make themselves look better. It's not someone who just works hard or goes above and beyond. It is irrelevant to the specialty, but some specialties attract gunners because of how competitive they are.

 

[deleted804295]

So any premed who is interested in surgery is considered a gunner?

I think gunner was the wrong term to use here. And it's not a great idea to insult naive freshman but I think it's a story many of us hear about.

 

[mwsapphire]

lol 6 years? Best case scenario they're in their 2nd year of med school at that point. Most premeds don't go to medical school. And most medical students don't end up doing surgery. They're one of those naive freshmen. While volunteering at a hospital a couple of years ago I was with this high school senior who said she wanted to be a neurosurgeon someday. I just chuckled to myself and shifted the conservation to something else.

See but at that point, they're so young and naive that it's excusable. Like, there's a point where you're too young to be held responsible for that sort of thing.

 

[moldydorito]

Maybe I’m naive too, but I don’t understand why aiming for surgery and other competitive specialties is frowned upon? I’ve always been interested in ortho and neuro since middle school. What’s wrong with being ambitious? I’ve always aimed high in life whether it be in my school work or applying to colleges and now applying to med school.

 

[Rachapkis]

Maybe I’m naive too, but I don’t understand why aiming for surgery and other competitive specialties is frowned upon? I’ve always been interested in ortho and neuro since middle school. What’s wrong with being ambitious? I’ve always aimed high in life whether it be in my school work or applying to colleges and now applying to med school.

There is nothing wrong with being ambitious. Being arrogant and presumptuous is another matter altogether. It is arrogant and presumptuous to declare with certainty that one will enter a specialty before one has entered the MANY funnels that determine who makes it into that specialty.

 

[Bonne Nuit]

Maybe I’m naive too, but I don’t understand why aiming for surgery and other competitive specialties is frowned upon? I’ve always been interested in ortho and neuro since middle school. What’s wrong with being ambitious? I’ve always aimed high in life whether it be in my school work or applying to colleges and now applying to med school.

I know some premeds who go on about certain “sexy” specialties, and it’s clear they don’t really understand the field, the process to get into the field, etc. If you haven’t spent time with a medical examiner (for example) and it’s clear the crux of your information comes from CBS crime dramas, you just look a little naive. It doesn’t bother me; they’ll figure it out soon enough.

If you’re “gunning” for ortho and you can back it up with shadowing and a clear and mature understanding of the field, that won’t be “frowned upon”