Anyone knows about GWU pathology program? I heard they just kicked out a PYG-1 who just had a baby, sounds horrible. Does GWU have anything to do with Georgetwon Univ?
GWU pathology, PGY-1 got fired?
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don't know about the resident getting fired part, but georgetown and GW are two different institutions, both in washington dc.
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There must be more to the story than that.
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This whole story about the George Washington University kicking out a PGY-1 who just had a baby is absolutely not true. GWU Pathology has not and would never fire a resident for having a baby. From my experience there, I know of multiple residents and fellows who had their children during their training period at GW. Faculty and residents alike realize that becoming a parent is a major life event, and everyone tries to be very accomodating and supportive. It's really a shame that someone would fabricate such a horrible story, and that it would end up being posted on a public forum so indiscriminately.
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That's the brave new world of internet forums for ya.
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That's the good and the bad of a forum where those that wish to remain anonymous may do so pretty easily. Thank you for sharing that info.
To be clear, that is what I heard, not that I know it firsthand, or the whole story behind it.
Just wonder how realistic it is to have a child as a first year resident. You will have to take a rather long time off, be distracted more than usual. And obviously, every program will SAY they will be supportive. But in reality, would a program prefer you not to have a baby in the first year? And how you ask about it without scaring them off?
Just wonder how realistic it is to have a child as a first year resident. You will have to take a rather long time off, be distracted more than usual. And obviously, every program will SAY they will be supportive. But in reality, would a program prefer you not to have a baby in the first year? And how you ask about it without scaring them off?
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I heard that at GWU the attendings only have one extra teaching head and when 2 residents are signing out they cozy up and each use one eyepiece... Please clarify! Thanks
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The internet was probably the greatest tool in the history of conspiracy theories. The "Nazis went to Antarctica, established a base, and operate a fleet of UFOs" is probably the best one though.
Minor misinformation like "getting fired for having a baby" tends to proliferate on internet forums. Mostly because people who do stupid stuff and get fired often become delusional. And the delusional tend to support each other.
Minor misinformation like "getting fired for having a baby" tends to proliferate on internet forums. Mostly because people who do stupid stuff and get fired often become delusional. And the delusional tend to support each other.
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Only one resident is assigned to signout with an attending. Some attendings have double headed scopes and some have 3-headed ones. If another person wants to join the signout, they either move to one of the 3-headed scopes if it's available, or they move to the multiheaded scope used in consensus conference. Kinda makes sense, right?
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I discouraged and would discourage people from planning a baby during residency. I understand why people do it, and that's their choice, but it can be hard on the program, relationships in the program, and the resident -- academically, physically, emotionally, and so on. I was astonished at how many people just assumed that since they were having a baby everyone else would just -love- to pick up their slack, that the program -has- to happily accommodate everything they ask for, and that the board also -has- to accommodate them since the program did (generally as part of some mandatory built in maternity/paternity policy related to employment, which has nothing to do with the boards). But, there -are- overriding restrictions on how much time a resident can spend away from the program and one can't guarantee that the program will allow you to stay another week or month or 6 months into the next year to allow you to complete your requirements.
A lot of people work it out successfully, and more power to them -- friends and people I respect did so, and I occasionally wish I too had started that part of my life "earlier"; I'm not solely a curmudgeon about it. But everyone needs to be aware that it's not guaranteed to work out well and that there may be a lot more to it than just having a baby. While a program can't really fire someone solely "for having a baby", having a baby can affect a huge number of variables which may end with leaving or being forced to leave a program no matter how understanding and well intentioned everyone is.
A lot of people work it out successfully, and more power to them -- friends and people I respect did so, and I occasionally wish I too had started that part of my life "earlier"; I'm not solely a curmudgeon about it. But everyone needs to be aware that it's not guaranteed to work out well and that there may be a lot more to it than just having a baby. While a program can't really fire someone solely "for having a baby", having a baby can affect a huge number of variables which may end with leaving or being forced to leave a program no matter how understanding and well intentioned everyone is.
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If you are a female physician, there will not be a good time to have a baby. If your residency program has some 4th year electives and is a large program, I would consider that time. Residency is not like a real job that you get after training. Residency will tolerate your baby stuff/maternity leave more so than a real job. They will get over it. And you will move on.
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I am a former GW resident. It is untrue that she was fired for having a baby. Per rumor, she resigned for medical reasons related to having a child and the demands of residency. Although this happened a couple of weeks ago, the program has still not discussed this openly with the residents which is why there might be a lot of miscommunication going on. With that said, GW is an absolutely awful program and you should avoid it at all costs unless you must live in DC.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com
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The program may, but the ABP may not let you sit the boards; this is really the issue a lot of people didn't understand when they got started. They assumed that since the institution which supports their program had a policy which allowed them to take a bunch of time off and still have a job as a resident then the ABP was also OK with that. They are not. So unless the program is willing to fudge your "time away from the program" as reported to the ABP one might find themselves in a bad position. The exact same problem came up time and again even with vacation time. Unfortunately one has a lot of things to do in a limited time during residency, so planning as much as possible is your best safety net -- know what you're getting into and realize the potential problems, then make your own decision. Many "real jobs" have policies in place addressing maternity/paternity issues, although that may only protect a person so far.
There are a number of jobs that are practically impossible to hold while pregnant/raising small children, and pathology residency definitely isn't one of them.
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I am a former GW resident. It is untrue that she was fired for having a baby. Per rumor, she resigned for medical reasons related to having a child and the demands of residency. Although this happened a couple of weeks ago, the program has still not discussed this openly with the residents which is why there might be a lot of miscommunication going on. With that said, GW is an absolutely awful program and you should avoid it at all costs unless you must live in DC.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com
Just for discussions sake, we talk about "awful programs" sometimes, so could you please comment on what made it so bad? Bad environment? Bad teaching? Lack of good specimens/cases?
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You can get the training you need there, there's just a lot of headaches. I do not know of a single GW path alum that does not harbor *SOME* bitterness toward that place. It's a small place, so you tend to form tight personal relationships with your fellow residents and faculty for better or worse.
Biggest drawback is that the PD doesn't truly care about the residency program, it's just another thing on his CV. Attendings have high expectations that are sometimes unrealistic, so you sink or swim fast in that place. And God help you if you are viewed as someone who sinks.
Apply at your own risk.
Biggest drawback is that the PD doesn't truly care about the residency program, it's just another thing on his CV. Attendings have high expectations that are sometimes unrealistic, so you sink or swim fast in that place. And God help you if you are viewed as someone who sinks.
Apply at your own risk.
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We had 2 female residents give birth during my 2nd year of residency. Our program allowed you to combine your vacation & sick leave into 1 block (6 weeks) & take that as maternity leave. If you don't take any additional time off, you still finish the residency as scheduled. One of them needed more time, so she had to make it up at the end. Neither of them had any issues w/ the ABP.
Coincidentally, we also had 1 male resident whose wife gave birth. He took 4-6 weeks off for paternity leave. He wound up transferring, so I don't know what his status was w/ ABP.
----- Antony
Coincidentally, we also had 1 male resident whose wife gave birth. He took 4-6 weeks off for paternity leave. He wound up transferring, so I don't know what his status was w/ ABP.
----- Antony
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that's strange. i interviewed there this year and the PD was female (not male) and she seemed like she really wants to improve the program. i've heard these things before about the program but it does seem that they recently made changes based on resident feedback and have taken on some younger faculty who are alumni and hoping to make positive changes. seems they go on to good fellowships if you are into hemepath.
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I think pathology residency is a great time to have a baby, especially if you can use your vacation/sick time or elective time. Maybe in a smaller program it effects other residents more, but in a large program, it really shouldn't mean that other residents are picking up the slack. Whatever the case, having kids during residency and dealing with whatever consequences there are is a whole lot easier then dealing with the infertility, pregnancy loss, or health risks that come with age.
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Everyone should have a child if she/he wants to during residency or otherwise, I don't think corporations should dictate this aspect of an individual's life. Anyone who decides to have a child, man or woman, should be able to take responsibility for their decision within reason. The FMLA basically gives you 12 weeks of leave for this purpose and you may have to give up vacations and sick days (possibly) and combine it into your leave. It will probably affect the other trainees but there are ways to always work out a schedule to accommodate everyone. I know woman who weren't pregnant but their schedules were better than the women who decided to have the baby and put in extra months of heavy duty work to basically make for the time they needed to have the baby. Basically, a residency program has room to work with a resident or two, if the resident decides to have a child. Anyway, that's off topic.
The rules are determined by the government and law:
http://www.dol.gov/whd/fmla/
The hospital will also have it's policy regarding this matter. Not every institution or residency or department is very keen on these rules because let's face facts, it might affect the 'bottom-line' or rear the ugly heads from curmudgeons. The best thing to do is get a lawyer to help you with this process so, you don't screw yourself out of a job and know exactly what you should do. Be prepared to get back to work on time, and make sure you have the support needed to rear the child, especially, before you make the decision to have one.
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It's not necessarily the -job- of being a resident that's the biggest problem, it's the time "away from the program" restrictions by the ABP (I forget what it is, something like 80 days over 4 years? fairly long time, but it gets short a lot faster after 2..4..6..8 weeks, or whatever, of paternity/maternity leave) which can keep one from being able to sit the boards until it can be made up. Yeah, there are other problems having to do with the job, too, like making sure one still fulfills the programmatic requirements, and not burning bridges because someone else feels screwed out of an elective to help cover service requirements, or attendings have to cover something, or whatever (which is easier to alleviate by simple communication and reasonable planning, though surprises obviously happen), though the -job- almost certainly will -have- to be there by law or policy when one gets back from paternity/maternity leave -- at least through the end of June of one's final year as that's when the contract normally expires, after which one may or may not have an accredited position to finish their training requirements (if they still have any to finish or days to be at the program -- it's certainly possible to have a baby, maybe even 2, and avoid being away from the program too long over 3-4 years, but you may not have much vacation time; again not the -job's- vacation time, but the ABP's allowed time away from the program).
Again, it's something people can and do handle successfully when they understand what the real and potential problems are, just like people do before or after residency. Know what you're getting into, as with all things.. don't just assume it's going to work.
Again, it's something people can and do handle successfully when they understand what the real and potential problems are, just like people do before or after residency. Know what you're getting into, as with all things.. don't just assume it's going to work.
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American board of pathology has such specific requirements, really? Could you please point out where it states the 80 days rule you mentioned? Thanks.
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I believe the rule is that 48 weeks per year must be spent in training. Don't know if that's an average, or a minimum for each year.
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That's it. Basically it's a requirement to be able to take the boards. In the 2011 Booklet of Information ( http://www.abpath.org/2011BookletofInformation.pdf ) it says "1 year of approved training credit toward ABP certification requirements must be 52 weeks in duration, and the resident must document an average of 48 weeks per year of full-time pathology training over the course of the training program." The emphasis is native to the booklet. By my simplistic calculations that comes out to 16 weeks or 112 days over 4 years assuming a 7 day week; I think I must've heard 80 because of weekends not counting as work days since most of the time you're off weekends anyway? I dunno -- I don't recall a specific conversation with ABP about that detail, and programmatic interpretations may vary (since PD's essentially sign off on this number when you apply to the boards). Anyway. Again, it's a long time either way, and probably why most people don't know/think about it as they generally have no more vacation time than that (often less). But it can be bumped up against after 2-3 weeks of vacation for 2-3 years, then 6-8 weeks of baby leave. I just don't want people to walk into it blindly.
It's also worth noting that in the instructions for filling out the board application ( http://www.abpath.org/PATHwayAppInstructions.pdf ) the following language exists: "If you took more than 4 weeks vacation/leave in any one academic year, click Yes in the box. If you chose Yes, explain how the time was made up in the text box." I don't know if that represents a change from the previous quote which says "average" over the course of the training program rather than an absolute 48 weeks every single year. Were it me, I would want that to be very clear before finding out last minute I had to delay fellowship by a month to make up time, as not all fellowship programs may be understanding about it.
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I have personal experience with taking maternity leave during residency. I took 11 weeks off at the end of second year. Being at a larger residency, this luckily did not affect other residents. My program was very supportive of me taking time off. I was made aware from the beginning that I could only miss 16 weeks total over 4 years and still finish on time. This made the last two years tough as I had already taken my standard 3 weeks vacation my first year, leaving only 2 weeks vacation/sick time for the remaining two years of residency. In retrospect, I probably should have taken less maternity leave. As for applying for the boards, I did have to explain why I took more than 4 weeks vacation/leave, but I had no trouble qualifying for the spring boards in my 4th year.
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That is good to hear. Those rules by the abp sound so rigid, but let's face it, no reasonable person would ever say you are not eligible for the boards because of a couple extra weeks of maternity leave or time off for illness beyond 4 weeks per year. Aren't there federal laws about maternity leave that would override abp policies? But wow that must have been rough having to work 102 out of 104 weeks your last two years. Didn't you need a week off just to take the boards?
Another good option would be to follow up your allowed maternity leave time with some cp rotations which have minimal structured work time.
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Wait there's reasonable people at the ABP now? When did this happen?
Ha! Where do you think you live, Europe, Canada?
As an aside, check your local mat/pat leave policies. Most should conform with FEMLA regulations (the provisions of which in an of themselves are not that great). Some states have enacted somewhat better laws, notably CA and NJ, I believe. But, again the ABP has it's own procedural wording and presumably doesn't give a hoot about any of this.
Also, residency is akin to endangered servitude, and as such, some of these laws may not even apply.
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how can laws not apply to physicians in training?
I was being ironic. But, for example, the stipulation of FEMLA is that one has to work for the Man for at least 12 months before being eligible for potential benefits. Most residency contracts are renewable yearly. Therefore, one could argue that residents are therefore ineligible. Q.E.D.
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ABP isn't employing residents, just deciding whether they can take the boards. This is why residents generally still have a -job- at least until the end of their annual contract...most of the policies and laws apply to the -job-. But that's separate and apart from whether one has met the requirements to take the boards. Otherwise it's like saying someone can be licensed as a pilot despite not having the required hours -- why they don't have enough hours really doesn't matter, just as (as far as the ABP goes) why one doesn't have enough days at the program doesn't matter, merely that one has or hasn't met the quota (though you may have to answer questions about missing a bunch in one year, what matters is the total at the end). This is established even in elementary school -- miss too many days and get held back..though kiddies may get a little more fudge room and be able to test out of it.
The validity of what is basically a quota system is another matter altogether. The confusion, however, seems to consistently be in misunderstanding the difference between having a job with its benefits and days off, and having ABP training requirements that must be met.
The validity of what is basically a quota system is another matter altogether. The confusion, however, seems to consistently be in misunderstanding the difference between having a job with its benefits and days off, and having ABP training requirements that must be met.
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so basically if one takes a leave of absence for the maximum time, like 12 weeks. i don't think you can get paid because fmla is without pay, right? let's say one didn't use the sick days and vacation time for the year, and that gets depleted first when one is on the fmla (as per one's employers' policies). then, basically one has to complete or make up those 8 weeks as an addition to the four years of training or over the following years, for ex. if the leave was taken during the 2nd or 3rd year? there are times when people have to take fmla, and can't satisfy the ABP requirements, how are the abp requirement made up? let's say a 'non-favorite' resident has to go on fmla for like 3 months, what happens? does the medicare "pay per resident" fund get halted? does the non-favorite get a chance to finish the training as an addendum to the final year or can it be extended into a fellowship training? would the abp take explanations? will the program director find a way to ensure that the resident achieves competency? does it become punitive, 'it's too inconvenient for the other 20 residents to accommodate the one resident and the one resident has to be kicked out', then the schedule will be officially changed? let's say the program director is delighted that you requested a potential leave in the future, do they have to explain to you the abp requirements or that you have to explain your leave to the abp etc...? hmm...i hope it doesn't piss off people on this forum that i ask questions!
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Then it wouldnt apply to ANYONE in "at will" employment state because they are on "contracts" renewable DAILY.
Your logic is off a bit.
When did all laws start making logical sense?
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I heard 3 out of 4 PGY-1 last year either quitted or transfered away in GW pathology. And at least 3 out of 8-9 attendings are leaving this year. You really have to do some research before you apply these days, nothing is worse than trapped in a bad residency program.
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I took a maternity leave during residency. After a year of employment, FMLA allows up to 12 weeks, some states have separate maternity laws protecting employment up to 16 weeks.
So giving birth during the first year is a risky deal. ABP requires that you are in training at least 48 out of 52 weeks per year.
Yes, the board application asks the question about more than 4 weeks away from training - you just answer honestly. "I was on maternity leave for x weeks. When combined with vacation, this time did not exceed 16 weeks over 4 years." Should be no problem.
Potentially pregnant female residents should also be aware that federal law requires your employer to provide a non-bathroom, private area for lactation up to a year after birth. I "milked" this for all it's worth - what with human milk giving kids up to 8 IQ points, etc.
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FMLA requires that an empoloyer hold the job of an employee for 12 weeks (cumulative over one year) for health related purposes, be they for the individual or for the care of a family member (i.e. child, parent, spouse, etc). This is only if the employee has worked the job for 12 months, and if the employer has at least 60 (maybe 50) employees. So, it doesn't apply to small businesses. FMLA has nothing to do with whether or not the employee gets paid. It simply means that you can take up to 12 weeks in a calendar year for health-related issues for you or a family member without being fired.
An empoloyer may choose to pay you, or may require you to use up your vacation time before going on unpaid leave, or may provide short-term disability insurance to pay a part of your salary. All of that is up to the employer.
Now, this is my opinion, but I think a judge would have a hard time believing that an employee didn't qualify for FMLA after 12 months of work just because the contracts were in 12 month increments. I qualified for FMLA (as per my employer) in my 2nd year of training even though my contracts are for 12 months at a time.
As far as the training is concerned, the program is not required to allow you to return after your 3 or 4 years are over to finish your training. A decent program would allow it, but they're not required. The ABP will allow you to sit for the boards if you are within 1 month of finishing training by the time the boards are given (you can be up to 4 weeks off cycle). So, if you want to sit in June, you have to finish training requirements by the end of July.
We have had a baby boom in my program in the last 5 years. 5 babies from my class of 6 were hatched during my training, and plenty more were had by other residents/fellows. For each woman whose maternity leave put them off-cycle, the PD made arrangements for her to either start her fellowship a little later, or go off to fellowship and return to finish the extra months afterward. Two of the girls took 4 months of maternity leave which means they have to take the fall sitting of the boards.
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This is true in many GWU specialties - that place is bad news for all residency training. They LOVE firing residents and destroying medical careers if you dare cross anyone. It's a private hospital (so, no $ from district, and their programs are so small that residents take up the brunt of the scut work), I was told by an attending that ALL GWU residents are expected to violate ACGME duty hours routinely, attendings scream and curse/ get complaints from patients, there are absolutely no networking opportunities (difficult to find a job later), many PDs/ superiors just don't care about your education, and GWU just got off academic probation from the LCME accreditation board. There's a risk that you may not even get board certified if the ACGME decides to yank its accreditation on the next site visit. The fish rots from the head down at GWU, and every department STINKS.
This seems to be a pretty universal opinion. A book on GWU and Goergetown finances even quotes a former faculty member as saying GW takes young people, uses them up. and then spits them out. George Washington also lacks the funds (or is simply unwilling) to impliment ACGME hours rules. Which means they are always skirting losing accreditation. So, even after all the abuse, you may not be able to take the boards.
Evidently, things have not improved much since they came off accreditation probation. According to another thread, 3 of 4 pgy-1 path residents just bailed. As noted, the real danger is that GWU so blatantly breaks the rules that even the normally passive ACGME might use them to set an example and to show they are on the job..
The acting dean of medicine is a promoted GWU department chairman and so part of the problem. Do not even think of GW as a residency spot until these issues get resolved.
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The years already done were accredited years, so those aren't lost. You just have to check the effective date of loss of accreditation. Chances are that the institution would try to re-appropriate those positions to another program within the institution so the non-accredited positions might well just disappear. But they might be made available as a non-accredited position which I suppose one could treat like a non-accredited fellowship of sorts -- it wouldn't count towards boards and might be a waste of time, though in the perfect circumstances it might be just as good as a fellowship (during which time one could work out a transfer to an accredited program).
My recollection is that when a program has lost accreditation, or shut down for other reasons, other programs have worked with them to get the residents transferred -- it's not just a black hole those residents disappear into.
My recollection is that when a program has lost accreditation, or shut down for other reasons, other programs have worked with them to get the residents transferred -- it's not just a black hole those residents disappear into.
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good thing.
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... .There's a risk that you may not even get board certified if the ACGME decides to yank its accreditation on the next site visit. The fish rots from the head down at GWU, and every department STINKS.
To me, the big danger is that the next time the LCME flatly just takes GW's accreditation away, rather than merely putting them on probation. They did this for a school in Puerto Rico. This means everybody is just SOL. Students, residents, everybody. Not like an individual department losing ACGME accreditation.
E.g., according to an article in the GW student newspaper, after 20 months GW has still not put together a selection committee to pick a new dean of medicine. See: "Search stalls for medical school dean", GWU Hatchet, August 30, 2012 at: http://www.gwhatchet.com/2012/08/30/search-stalls-for-medical-school-dean
This is already in violation of a LCME rule that such jobs not go unfilled for extended periods. If they can't get it together long enough to pick a new dean to replace the one fired because of their last probation, who knows what else is going on? This place is seriously messed up.
