H&P completion

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Iamnew2

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Hello all,
There is some discussion in my area regarding when an H&P has to be completed. Some say that the entire document has to be completely done within 24 hours of admit. Others say that the document has to be started/time stamped within 24 hours of patient admission.

Thoughts?

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I always operated under the assumption in training that the admission H&P needed to be completed in 24 hours from time of admission. I don't do inpatient anymore so I may be wrong. Primarily so any other consultants on the team know what is going on with the patient. Secondarily for billing and being able to start follow up notes for subsequent days.
 
My understanding is the H&P has to be signed within 24hrs of arrival. If not, it’s noncompliant and Medicare could deny the entire stay based on that alone, which means the hospital has to pay back the big chunk of change Medicare gave them.

At all the rehab units I’ve worked at, that’s been the rule—H&P signed within 24hrs. And attending had to co-sign the admit order in that timeframe too.

So I finish my H&Ps and make sure admit orders are all signed well ahead of 24hrs.
 
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I've never heard of merely started within 24 hours. But you might get lucky if whoever if reviewing your charts only looks at the initial time stamp of when the note was started. But my understanding is that the note needs to be completed within 24 hours of admission.
 
I know this is an old thread, but what level are most of your H&Ps for coding purposes?
 

Speaking of H&P's, can midlevels (ie nurse practitioners) do the H&P? my understanding is that they can and my former group the midelvels did the H&P's all the time. I recently had a midlevel start and someone told me that nurse practitioners can't do H&Ps which I think it's nonsense. While I have to cosign stuff it makes no sense. Any thoughts on this?
 
A rehab physician must do admission orders, H&P, IPOC, weekly and at least 3 face to face visits per week if I remember the wording correctly per Medicare. If you have a NP or resident work with you then you still have to verify their note, make any changes to the plan and co-sign the note within the allotted time.

My thought is why do you want NPs to do all that for you. That’s how creep starts.

I think level 2 or 3 is appropriate for H&Ps. I was just wondering if that was standard or not.
 
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A rehab physician must do admission orders, H&P, IPOC, weekly and at least 3 face to face visits per week if I remember the wording correctly per Medicare. If you have a NP or resident work with you then you still have to verify their note, make any changes to the plan and co-sign the note within the allotted time.

My thought is why do you want NPs to do all that for you. That’s how creep starts.

I think level 2 or 3 is appropriate for H&Ps. I was just wondering if that was standard or not.
Because I can’t work 7 days a week. I do all my notes including H&Ps during the week but can’t work every single day of the week.
 
Because I can’t work 7 days a week. I do all my notes including H&Ps during the week but can’t work every single day of the week.
The doc I knew who covered a 14-bed unit solo had internal medicine cross-coverage over the weekend plus nights. So he only worked 8-5 M-F, and call a few weekends per year. IM did all admits on Sunday and the rehab doc did the rehab H&P on Monday. No admits Saturday, so all were seen by a rehab doctor within 24hrs. It was the only rehab unit for a few hours' drive, so they could be a bit pickier (plus half the admits came from the attached hospital, the other half came from the other hospital in town)

He may have had standing orders for the Sunday admits. Or he prepped them on Friday. I thought IM did admit orders and maybe even saw the patient/put in an IM note, but I'm not too sure--it was during my intern year that I worked with him.

Were I to be alone on my unit (for more than short-term), I'd request a similar arrangement.

I do believe one of the three face-to-face visits by rehab can now be done by a midlevel. It's not relevant for us as we don't have midlevels though.
 
The doc I knew who covered a 14-bed unit solo had internal medicine cross-coverage over the weekend plus nights. So he only worked 8-5 M-F, and call a few weekends per year. IM did all admits on Sunday and the rehab doc did the rehab H&P on Monday. No admits Saturday, so all were seen by a rehab doctor within 24hrs. It was the only rehab unit for a few hours' drive, so they could be a bit pickier (plus half the admits came from the attached hospital, the other half came from the other hospital in town)

He may have had standing orders for the Sunday admits. Or he prepped them on Friday. I thought IM did admit orders and maybe even saw the patient/put in an IM note, but I'm not too sure--it was during my intern year that I worked with him.

Were I to be alone on my unit (for more than short-term), I'd request a similar arrangement.

I do believe one of the three face-to-face visits by rehab can now be done by a midlevel. It's not relevant for us as we don't have midlevels though.

My unit is a 40bed unit, and I do have IM team but as I posted before the way things are done creates some issues. I do H&P on Mondays for any Sunday admits, but we admit every day including Saturdays and Friday evenings frequently late into the night, so that's the day that gets tricky in particular. Im trying to figure out a workable set up for Saturdays. I do all the face to faces and H&P except for Saturday admits.
 
Sounds like a busy job, but potential for great income.

I do weekend coverage and H&Ps 2 times per month, but I don’t admit for Sunday H&Ps. I’m not really sure if there is really that much of a financial benefit for the hospital to do admissions on Sunday instead of just waiting a few hours and have the patient arrive after noon on Sunday for a Monday H&P. But we also don’t have full therapy coming in on sundays to do evaluations either.

Hopefully you can find a way to work it out. I would personally be burned out if I had to work 7 days per week and it doesn’t sound like you get any coverage or Locums and maybe no weekends off. Physician well being is important and if you are working too much your productivity and quality of care could always go down. Usually people are more productive at work if they get adequate time off.

But I don’t think there is any way around the current Medicare guidelines. Often they try to change the rules to let NPs do the H&Ps and those rules have not been accepted. AAPMR has been against that. But that is always my fear having a mostly inpatient practice that eventually they will allow NPs to take over.
 
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BTW , if you don’t follow Medicare guidelines it doesn’t necessarily mean you don’t get paid. It may not come up unless those charts get audited. If your Sunday admits are coming with private insurance it may not matter if an NP does the note either. Just really hard to find out and above my knowledge.
 
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BTW , if you don’t follow Medicare guidelines it doesn’t necessarily mean you don’t get paid. It may not come up unless those charts get audited. If your Sunday admits are coming with private insurance it may not matter if an NP does the note either. Just really hard to find out and above my knowledge.

I do all the H&P's including Sundays (which are done on Monday) myself except for the Saturday ones. It is a busy place at this time. I'm having some issue with my collections either taking forever or getting rejected at times and billing having to re-submit which is annoying.

I am off on weekends, I work M-F. i did some research and indeed NPs can do H&Ps they just need to be cosigned.
 
My unit is a 40bed unit, and I do have IM team but as I posted before the way things are done creates some issues. I do H&P on Mondays for any Sunday admits, but we admit every day including Saturdays and Friday evenings frequently late into the night, so that's the day that gets tricky in particular. Im trying to figure out a workable set up for Saturdays. I do all the face to faces and H&P except for Saturday admits.
You manage a 40-bed unit on your own? That's a ton of work. What's your ADC? I assume you're not seeing everyone daily? 40 patients/day is a lot. But even 20 patients everyday is quite a bit (in addition to answering calls/pages for all 40).

I'm glad you have Sa/Sun off, but that's still a really busy job. Must pay really well though!

It's common for my billers to have to re-bill things to insurance as well. After a year or two though the delays become moot (since you catch up, and now new delays are offset by those prior delays finally coming through) and your income stream stabilizes. If your biller issues are really that bad though, it might be worthwhile to find a new billing agency.
 
You manage a 40-bed unit on your own? That's a ton of work. What's your ADC? I assume you're not seeing everyone daily? 40 patients/day is a lot. But even 20 patients everyday is quite a bit (in addition to answering calls/pages for all 40).

I'm glad you have Sa/Sun off, but that's still a really busy job. Must pay really well though!

It's common for my billers to have to re-bill things to insurance as well. After a year or two though the delays become moot (since you catch up, and now new delays are offset by those prior delays finally coming through) and your income stream stabilizes. If your biller issues are really that bad though, it might be worthwhile to find a new billing agency.

We are not full to 40 beds :) The unit wasn't doing very well when I first took this job, we are nearing 30 patients more recently, and I don't see everyone every day - most people I see 5 days/week, less acute patients 3-4 times so it's doable. it's busy for sure. I have a medicine team so that helps. it pays well yes. insurance payers are not that great in the area though but still I am making more than I ever thought I would. the hospital has gone from a really poorly performing one to a really well performing one so referrals flow in very generously.
 
We are not full to 40 beds :) The unit wasn't doing very well when I first took this job, we are nearing 30 patients more recently, and I don't see everyone every day - most people I see 5 days/week, less acute patients 3-4 times so it's doable. it's busy for sure. I have a medicine team so that helps. it pays well yes. insurance payers are not that great in the area though but still I am making more than I ever thought I would. the hospital has gone from a really poorly performing one to a really well performing one so referrals flow in very generously.
30 is still a lot for just one person! On my days where I cover for my partner and see 18-22 patients it's a busy day, but still manageable enough I'm generally home in time for dinner.

Payor mix is something unfortunately you don't have much control over. Though if you've turned the unit around that much, hopefully you're getting a large medical director stipend.

I am also making much more than I ever thought. Residents (and employed docs) underestimate how much they can make in solo practice, (particularly with SNF/IRF where overhead is minimal), and how much director stipends can pay as well.

I used to think $250k as a new grad was a great salary...
 
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30 is still a lot for just one person! On my days where I cover for my partner and see 18-22 patients it's a busy day, but still manageable enough I'm generally home in time for dinner.

Payor mix is something unfortunately you don't have much control over. Though if you've turned the unit around that much, hopefully you're getting a large medical director stipend.

I am also making much more than I ever thought. Residents (and employed docs) underestimate how much they can make in solo practice, (particularly with SNF/IRF where overhead is minimal), and how much director stipends can pay as well.

I used to think $250k as a new grad was a great salary...

Yeah we are nearing 30, so typically in the high 20's, and as mentioned, I don't see everyone every day. I would say typically 23-26 is what I see daily, but everyone at least 3 times weekly. But yes you are correct it's still a lot of work but at least I get weekends off, and I can take time off as needed which is great. Stipend is pretty generous to be honest.

The issue with solo practice is the ups and downs with waiting for collections mostly - i have learned a lot aobut collections though so i can anticipate most nonsense by insurance companies. Aside from that it is overall the best way to work - employed inpatient not so great. and you are right overhead is minimal. But sometimes it does get frustrating to deal with insurance and having things rejected then having to be resubmitted etc.
 
Yeah we are nearing 30, so typically in the high 20's, and as mentioned, I don't see everyone every day. I would say typically 23-26 is what I see daily, but everyone at least 3 times weekly. But yes you are correct it's still a lot of work but at least I get weekends off, and I can take time off as needed which is great. Stipend is pretty generous to be honest.

The issue with solo practice is the ups and downs with waiting for collections mostly - i have learned a lot aobut collections though so i can anticipate most nonsense by insurance companies. Aside from that it is overall the best way to work - employed inpatient not so great. and you are right overhead is minimal. But sometimes it does get frustrating to deal with insurance and having things rejected then having to be resubmitted etc.
How long have you been practicing?

If you have a lot of private insurance that can obviously skew things too. We're probably 20% commercial, 10-20% Medicaid and the rest Medicare (usually straight Medicare, which I appreciate since you get paid within two weeks of submitting charges).

I find my monthly collections are generally within a few thousand of each other, unless I was on vacation the prior month. Then I see a dip. But otherwise at this point the early-on dips caused by the delay in private insurance reimbursement have been now been evened out since now we're catching up to the delays from 6mo-1yr ago, etc. So I'm generally able to budget/plan, and with estimated taxes there's a little wiggle room if needed, though I just prefer to over-save and set additional funds aside in a high-interest savings account and then "pay myself back" once I have a more final idea of what my tax burden will be for the year. So I give myself a bonus around Sept, and again around February when I do my taxes :)
 
Yes, like I mentioned earlier NPs or residents can write the note. You still have to co-sign and see the patient in 24 hours. I don’t see how you will get around that.

Maybe I am over interpreting the requirements, but I’m more of a safe than sorry kind of person.
 
How long have you been practicing?

If you have a lot of private insurance that can obviously skew things too. We're probably 20% commercial, 10-20% Medicaid and the rest Medicare (usually straight Medicare, which I appreciate since you get paid within two weeks of submitting charges).

I find my monthly collections are generally within a few thousand of each other, unless I was on vacation the prior month. Then I see a dip. But otherwise at this point the early-on dips caused by the delay in private insurance reimbursement have been now been evened out since now we're catching up to the delays from 6mo-1yr ago, etc. So I'm generally able to budget/plan, and with estimated taxes there's a little wiggle room if needed, though I just prefer to over-save and set additional funds aside in a high-interest savings account and then "pay myself back" once I have a more final idea of what my tax burden will be for the year. So I give myself a bonus around Sept, and again around February when I do my taxes :)
I’ve been having issues w Medicare taking a long time to pay and it’s frustrating me not sure what the deal is I have some bills dating back to last year. I’ve also had some issues w people not paying their deductibles and getting nothing for some inpatient stays - how do you deal w those patients?
Also how do you do taxes - do you pay them quarterly or all in one bunch? Do you have an accountant that does that for you?
 
I’ve been having issues w Medicare taking a long time to pay and it’s frustrating me not sure what the deal is I have some bills dating back to last year. I’ve also had some issues w people not paying their deductibles and getting nothing for some inpatient stays - how do you deal w those patients?
Also how do you do taxes - do you pay them quarterly or all in one bunch? Do you have an accountant that does that for you?
Straight Medicare is required to pay you within two weeks of receiving charges. If you're not getting paid by then, either the patient has a managed plan, your billers are doing something wrong, or the patient doesn't have Medicare B to cover your charges. I have plenty of patients with pending "Medicare" balances on our monthly report, but they don't have part B so what it really means is they're uninsured from my perspective. So we rarely get paid by them.

If patients don't pay their deductible they don't pay their deductible. I'm not going to go after my patients and send them to collections (which rarely works) unless they're just flat out hostile.

Some patients we just won't get paid for--it's the downside of traditional fee-for-service. It's just part of the cost of doing business, and always has been in medicine--some patients just won't be able to pay. On the upside, we still generally make significantly more than an employed doc in the same circumstance, where the hospital eats that loss (but also takes a large cut of the physician's profitability).

I find it best to just take a brief look at my monthly reports from my billers, then file them far and away. Perhaps once a year I ask about delinquent accounts, but my billers seem to be competent and are motivated to collect where it's feasible (it's how they get paid after-all).

I pay my taxes quarterly. Paying on one bunch either means forking too much money over way too early, or at tax time and getting hit with a lot of late fees, as quarterly payments are required unless you're paying taxes elsewhere (and to a substantial degree).

I used to have an accountant. The first one charged about $1000k/yr, but he wasn't very responsive. Then I went with a recommended one who charged $2k, but very responsive. Then they increased their rates to $3k. I felt I was doing most of the work anyway with filling out their "packet," and I don't have a complex revenue stream (just collections + director stipend, a little bank interest). I'm also a sole proprietor which keeps things very simple. So I did taxes on my own this year with Turbo Tax back in Feb, and will probably continue to do so. Much more simple, and gives me a better understanding of my tax situation.
 
Straight Medicare is required to pay you within two weeks of receiving charges. If you're not getting paid by then, either the patient has a managed plan, your billers are doing something wrong, or the patient doesn't have Medicare B to cover your charges. I have plenty of patients with pending "Medicare" balances on our monthly report, but they don't have part B so what it really means is they're uninsured from my perspective. So we rarely get paid by them.

If patients don't pay their deductible they don't pay their deductible. I'm not going to go after my patients and send them to collections (which rarely works) unless they're just flat out hostile.

Some patients we just won't get paid for--it's the downside of traditional fee-for-service. It's just part of the cost of doing business, and always has been in medicine--some patients just won't be able to pay. On the upside, we still generally make significantly more than an employed doc in the same circumstance, where the hospital eats that loss (but also takes a large cut of the physician's profitability).

I find it best to just take a brief look at my monthly reports from my billers, then file them far and away. Perhaps once a year I ask about delinquent accounts, but my billers seem to be competent and are motivated to collect where it's feasible (it's how they get paid after-all).

I pay my taxes quarterly. Paying on one bunch either means forking too much money over way too early, or at tax time and getting hit with a lot of late fees, as quarterly payments are required unless you're paying taxes elsewhere (and to a substantial degree).

I used to have an accountant. The first one charged about $1000k/yr, but he wasn't very responsive. Then I went with a recommended one who charged $2k, but very responsive. Then they increased their rates to $3k. I felt I was doing most of the work anyway with filling out their "packet," and I don't have a complex revenue stream (just collections + director stipend, a little bank interest). I'm also a sole proprietor which keeps things very simple. So I did taxes on my own this year with Turbo Tax back in Feb, and will probably continue to do so. Much more simple, and gives me a better understanding of my tax situation.
Thank you, that information helps. I might PM you in the future to ask more questions. :)
 
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I do all the H&P's including Sundays (which are done on Monday) myself except for the Saturday ones. It is a busy place at this time. I'm having some issue with my collections either taking forever or getting rejected at times and billing having to re-submit which is annoying.

I am off on weekends, I work M-F. i did some research and indeed NPs can do H&Ps they just need to be cosigned.
So who does your Saturday admissions? The medicine folks that you work with? There are models where the IM docs are admitting and discharging and PM&R is consulting only.

From my understanding NPs can do H&Ps. Some hospitals they rotate call coverage on weekends. As far as cosigning I don't think you have to see the patient just approve of their treatment plan.

It's 3 notes in first week, 2 of which have to be a physician including H&P and 3rd can be midlevel then after 1st week 2 notes can be midlevel. At least that's what I have been told.

Who manages when you are off for vacation?

What kind of stipend are you all getting for medical directorship? From what I understand can vary between 90k-150k depending on size of unit.
 
I was looking at the CMS guidelines I have.

Regarding H&Ps, says a rehabilitation physician does the H&P within 24 hours of admission. If resident or physician extender completes the note then the rehabilitation physician is not required to repeat the history and physical exam, but must visit the patient within 24 hours.
 
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