Half URM advantage?

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LizzyM said:
Have you applied yet? There is a section to describe childhood disadvantage and even if you don't self-identify as such, your application will be assessed and tagged if your parents attended school in the US but did not attend college or they attended college but work in clerical jobs.
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Yes ma'am and I used that prompt to talk about some of my experiences. And while I do have acceptances to medical school, I also have competitive stats for a non-URM applicant. Some of the stories on here of URM students getting into medical school with 3.2/503 getting 6 MD II, I can't help but think that many non-URM but heavily disadvantaged students would not get the same treatment. Which I think is why some people get so up in arms about URM being used in admissions, as it seems they value some disadvantage much more over others. Again, I have nothing to complain about as I've been fortunate enough to be accepted, but I also feel the road I traveled was much more winding than some of my peers to get to the same place (which I imagine is how many URM students feel as well). In my opinion, low-SES should be URM as I feel the process inherently weeds them out.
 
Jaigantic said:
. There is no one size fits all trajectory in life for every person of color or minority. That's why I asked you what is it about the experience that is desirable. It's a vague generalization you're making.
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A black man regardless of socioeconomic status goes through life experiencing interactions with others that take into account his race and sex. Whether he is driving down the street, responding to an emergency, or opening his own front door (remember Henry Louis Gates being arrested on his own front porch in Cambridge Mass?), his interactions with others create life experiences that can be stressful, challenging and sometime even fatal. ('Good guy with a gun' comes to rescue; police kill him) It doesn't matter if one is rich or poor, black men get judged every day in a way that provides them with a life experience that is under-represented in medicine and that we need to better understand if we are to provide good care to patients who are black men.

To understand why SES can't be substituted for race, see https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/full/10.1377/hlthaff.24.2.343
 
LizzyM said:
A black man regardless of socioeconomic status goes through life experiencing interactions with others that take into account his race and sex. Whether he is driving down the street, responding to an emergency, or opening his own front door (remember Henry Louis Gates being arrested on his own front porch in Cambridge Mass?), his interactions with others create life experiences that can be stressful, challenging and sometime even fatal. ('Good guy with a gun' comes to rescue; police kill him) It doesn't matter if one is rich or poor, black men get judged every day in a way that provides them with a life experience that is under-represented in medicine and that we need to better understand if we are to provide good care to patients who are black men.

To understand why SES can't be substituted for race, see https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/full/10.1377/hlthaff.24.2.343
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Yep, I agree with all of that 100%. But I never cited SES once. I'm saying there are countless instances where people who are technically URM don't go through even those experiences. Say, because they don't look black or like a minority. Why does that black man go through these stressful, discriminatory experiences? By default, because of the color of his skin. But say an individual is half black and they don't look like a traditional black person in America. Do you think they would experience that same sort of discrimination driving down the street, responding to an emergency, or in front of their own home? How about someone who is from one of the many regions of mexico where they are predominantly white skinned? Those people haven't experienced those same struggles and discriminations in America, yet still benefit from the URM advantage.

So would a school actively filter out those "technically URM" individuals, since they haven't gone through those experiences? Or would they receive a boost same as any other URM? It seems to me like a dark skinned African American man with a lower MCAT and GPA who has gone through those experiences based on his race, that you mentioned would be put to the side in comparison to a white skinned ethnic minority who is URM with higher stats, but has lived a life void of those racial experiences
 
Jaigantic said:
Yep, I agree with all of that 100%. But I never cited SES once. I'm saying there are countless instances where people who are technically URM don't go through even those experiences. Say, because they don't look black or like a minority. Why does that black man go through these stressful, discriminatory experiences? By default, because of the color of his skin. But say an individual is half black and they don't look like a traditional black person in America. Do you think they would experience that same sort of discrimination driving down the street, responding to an emergency, or in front of their own home? How about someone who is from one of the many regions of mexico where they are predominantly white skinned? Those people haven't experienced those same struggles and discriminations in America, yet still benefit from the URM advantage.

So would a school actively filter out those "technically URM" individuals, since they haven't gone through those experiences? Or would they receive a boost same as any other URM? It seems to me like a dark skinned African American man with a lower MCAT and GPA who has gone through those experiences based on his race, that you mentioned would be put to the side in comparison to a white skinned ethnic minority who is URM with higher stats, but has lived a life void of those racial experiences
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It's not about how one looks. We don't have a paper bag test to assess skin pigment. We look at the app and what they've done. And like it or not, there are too many people who try to game the system to take advantage of URM status. That's why we ask that people walk the walk, not merely talk the talk.
 
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tradkeke said:
I think using URM as part of the admissions process is great, but I wish there was the same push to recruit/accept applicants from low-SES as well. On average I am shocked at how bad most privileged kids, regardless of race, are at communicating is poor/undeserved/uneducated populations.
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Whoa whoa whoa I didn’t know I had to be fluent in dumb*ss
 
tradkeke said:
I know it sucks :/ I have to learn how to be fluent in privileged ass-hat, but you seem to be a great tutor.
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I charge $20 an hour but here’s a free trial:

Lesson 1: Privilege isn’t a bad thing.
 
doctorcocter said:
I charge $20 an hour but here’s a free trial:

Lesson 1: Privilege isn’t a bad thing.
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Of course it isn't, I hope my kids are privileged. However, I also hope they are able to be aware of that and see what advantages they have had that aren't afforded to others. Being open-minded only helps you and will help you serve your future patients, why wouldn't you want that experience and skill set?

Very few people have issues with privilege, they have issues with the close-minded-ness that seems to come with it.
 
Goro said:
In addition to this, only some four hundred African American men applied to medical school last year. This is about the same it was one or two decades ago
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I've been thinking about this statistic for the past couple days and what it means. How many people apply to medical school each year?
 
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tradkeke said:
Of course it isn't, I hope my kids are privileged. However, I also hope they are able to be aware of that and see what advantages they have had that aren't afforded to others. Being open-minded only helps you and will help you serve your future patients, why wouldn't you want that experience and skill set?

Very few people have issues with privilege, they have issues with the close-minded-ness that seems to come with it.
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I always ask everyone how much they make in a year to gauge how terribly I’m going to treat them.
 
doctorcocter said:
I always ask everyone how much they make in a year to gauge how terribly I’m going to treat them.
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I think you're confused. I'm not saying you (or other privileged individuals) are purposely going out of your way to treat people badly. If someone simply doesn't have experience with certain populations their communication is going to be hindered. Given the nature of the common paths to medical school, there is little motivation for someone of privileged background (outside of someone who is astutely aware/caring) to learn how to effectively communication disadvantaged populations. This can lead to huge issues with patient compliance and outcomes simply because of poor communication (note: not focused and cognizant prejudice, although that can be a separate issue). Considering close to 70% of the US population isn't college educated and that many health issues disproportionately effect low-SES populations, this seems like an important skill for a provider to have.

Stop feeling targeted. No one is attacking you because your parents have money. People just want good doctors.
 
tradkeke said:
I think you're confused. I'm not saying you (or other privileged individuals) are purposely going out of your way to treat people badly. If someone simply doesn't have experience with certain populations their communication is going to be hindered. Given the nature of the common paths to medical school, there is little motivation for someone of privileged background (outside of someone who is astutely aware/caring) to learn how to effectively communication disadvantaged populations. This can lead to huge issues with patient compliance and outcomes simply because of poor communication (note: not focused and cognizant prejudice, although that can be a separate issue). Considering close to 70% of the US population isn't college educated and that many health issues disproportionately effect low-SES populations, this seems like an important skill for a provider to have.

Stop feeling targeted. No one is attacking you because your parents have money. People just want good doctors.
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Experience with underserved populations is already valued.
 
tanbrucewayne said:
Looking through the AAMC tables, ~400 AA men matriculated, ~1500 AA men applied, and 50000+ people applied over the past few years
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Ah okay so slightly better than I initially thought. 400 matriculated, not applied.
 
LizzyM said:
Have you applied yet? There is a section to describe childhood disadvantage and even if you don't self-identify as such, your application will be assessed and tagged if your parents attended school in the US but did not attend college or they attended college but work in clerical jobs.
Click to expand...

Both of my parents dropped out of college and both have been disabled since I was 13. They aren't "gaming the system," they both have some serious medical issues that would make employment pretty impossible. One had pretty severe complications during brain surgery for an anuersym, while the other is a disabled veteran with a whole plethora of issues including untreated mental health, chronic pain, neuro stuff, and a legal opiate addiction.

I'm not sure if it's right for me to do the childhood disadvantage thing though. Yeah age 13-18 was hell, but I never was hungry or poor. I luckily have a well off family member who helped tremendously during that time and continues to help today. It sounds like my app might get flagged regardless though?
 
Maybedoc1 said:
Both of my parents dropped out of college and both have been disabled since I was 13. They aren't "gaming the system," they both have some serious medical issues that would make employment pretty impossible. One had pretty severe complications during brain surgery for an anuersym, while the other is a disabled veteran with a whole plethora of issues including untreated mental health, chronic pain, neuro stuff, and a legal opiate addiction.

I'm not sure if it's right for me to do the childhood disadvantage thing though. Yeah age 13-18 was hell, but I never was hungry or poor. I luckily have a well off family member who helped tremendously during that time and continues to help today. It sounds like my app might get flagged regardless though?
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Applying to med school under the disadvantaged category isn't like the old TV show Queen for a Day, where the winner was the contestant who had the most horrible life.

The fact that you had a benefactor is wonderful, but appears to me to push you out of the disadvantaged pool. The latter accounts for things that would have affected your ability to enter college.
 
Med Ed said:
If the AMCAS pools perfectly represented the 2010 census, we would have 3,150 black/African American male applicants and 1,260 matriculants each year.
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Those are still surprisingly small numbers.
 
Maybedoc1 said:
Both of my parents dropped out of college and both have been disabled since I was 13. They aren't "gaming the system," they both have some serious medical issues that would make employment pretty impossible. One had pretty severe complications during brain surgery for an anuersym, while the other is a disabled veteran with a whole plethora of issues including untreated mental health, chronic pain, neuro stuff, and a legal opiate addiction.

I'm not sure if it's right for me to do the childhood disadvantage thing though. Yeah age 13-18 was hell, but I never was hungry or poor. I luckily have a well off family member who helped tremendously during that time and continues to help today. It sounds like my app might get flagged regardless though?
Click to expand...

I wouldn't suggest that your parents are gaming the system. Here's the way that AMCAS classifies students according to parental SES:

https://www.aamc.org/download/351766/data/amcassesdisadvantagedindicator.pdf

Don't shoot the messenger. I don't know anything more about it than what's in the link so I can't tell you how a specific situation would be classified.
 
RNtoMD87 said:
You think I’ve never been discriminated against because I’m white? I literally had a black nurse coworker that I thought I was pretty cool with the other day say “One day I wanna start a school for poor kids. Especially black kids. That’s my life dream.” Then she looks dead at me, and says “you cool and all, no offense, but I only really care about black people getting ahead, no offense I guess I’m a little racist but oh well.”

I was in shock, it really put me on the spot, and I imagined what would have happened if the roles had been reversed.

I deal with this kind of bs on an almost daily basis because “well white people run stuff”, Uh I don’t run jack. My family was dirt poor before my dad who was middle class, and I am now upper middle class because I worked my ass off.

All to be disrespected to my face often and it’s socially acceptable.


Not to mention, I had a girl I dated that was very poor (this is 10 years ago, both broke ass college students right out of high school) and lived in a predominantly black rough area of town. Every time I came and visited her, she had several guys that would follow her aggressively pursuing her, as well as asking me “what the f I was doing around there”.

In my OWN neighborhood I live in right now (Midcity BR) I can’t go for a walk down MY street without people flipping me off and cussing me out when I politely nod at them.


Racial discrimination happens both ways.

I’ll add- I can understand if you have a GOOD story of why being a POC challenged you, but it irks me that it’s just blanketly accepted “oh you’re black, man you’ve sure had a hard time here ya go”

I guarantee you that you can’t accurately assume how difficult someone’s life is based on skin color.
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I been tryna stay silent but I want to help you out some, especially since you live practically in my neighborhood.


First of all- that nurse is a brave poc. You should be honored to work with her. In the face of discrimination, she got the courage to tell you what we all thinkin, but she actually do.

Lemme try to make it understandable for you. We not worried bout y’all. It like when you have a popular kid and a kid that isn’t and struggles in school. Just because you helpin the other one doesn’t mean you hate the one doin well. You just not worried about them. Nobody worried about white ppl.

And like other ppl sayin, it isn’t about wealth. When Obama walk near a bunch of white folk, they smiling to his face but they thinking n***er to themself. That’s the way you been trained, it will take generations to break that.

We don’t need a story of how being a poc challenged us. Everybody just know.
 
doctorcocter said:
Whoa whoa whoa I didn’t know I had to be fluent in dumb*ss
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Wow, your statement is shocking. I hope you don’t become a doctor because you racist af homie. Some ppl like MD87 might can be trained, but you just cold hearted and evil. *micdrop
 
TJinDaHouse said:
Wow, your statement is shocking. I hope you don’t become a doctor because you racist af homie. Some ppl like MD87 might can be trained, but you just cold hearted and evil. *micdrop
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lmao.

How’s that racist? Nowhere is race mentioned.

And trained? To think like you do? No thanks.

Personally, I reserve “evil” for serial killers, pedophiles, your mom, etc. and not people that make mildly offensive jokes or just people I disagree with.
 
TJinDaHouse said:
I been tryna stay silent but I want to help you out some, especially since you live practically in my neighborhood.


First of all- that nurse is a brave poc. You should be honored to work with her. In the face of discrimination, she got the courage to tell you what we all thinkin, but she actually do.

Lemme try to make it understandable for you. We not worried bout y’all. It like when you have a popular kid and a kid that isn’t and struggles in school. Just because you helpin the other one doesn’t mean you hate the one doin well. You just not worried about them. Nobody worried about white ppl.

And like other ppl sayin, it isn’t about wealth. When Obama walk near a bunch of white folk, they smiling to his face but they thinking n***er to themself. That’s the way you been trained, it will take generations to break that.

We don’t need a story of how being a poc challenged us. Everybody just know.
Click to expand...

Checking in as a white person that has never done this lol. Must have skipped this day of training.
 
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