Hard Classes

[ilovechemistry]

Hello everyone,
I am very interested in science and am wanting to take extremely hard science courses at my university and I am worried they might bring down my gpa. Im talking about graduate level classes in chemistry and biology such as Organic Synthesis, Advanced Analytical Chemistry, Molecular Biology, Cancer Biology, Bio-organic phenomena, Endocrinology Mechanisms, Advanced Eukaryote Genetics, and Medical Psychology. I go to UofL and I currently have the unfortunate gpa of 3.46 because some semesters I had a little too much fun being in a fraternity while I decided to take the engeneering physics version and I really struggle with general education classes and I ended up getting a C in history (I will never retake that, that class was hell) and I have many B's thanks to humanity courses. When I graduate I will have a degree in biology (cellular concentration), chemistry with biochemistry emphasis, and hopefully a math minor. I have five years paid for so im going an extra year so I can take those difficult graduate courses. My advisors want me to graduate in four years but I cant resist to take those classes when there free. Ive already taken some graduate classes and did great. But how would medical schools judge me if I ended up getting C's in those classes and ended up killing my gpa. I hate that I have such a strong interest in these things and it could kill my gpa while many students have 4.0's because they had easier majors. My dream medical school is at NYU. I want to be a doctor that works mainly with the poor who cannot afford health insurance. I could care less about money, never had any. I currently do research in organic synthesis and I believe im about to be co-author for a paper that hopefully will get published. In a few months I will be a certified pharmacy technician. And im trying to find time to do some community service. Any advice would be much appreciated. I havent taken the MCAT but my goal is at least a 12 in each science and I pray to get at least a 7 on the verbal reasoning (If I could get a 10 id probably hyperventilate and die).

(Sorry for any horrible grammar. English grammar is not my strong suit and I owe that to the redneck town I was raised in).

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[LuciusVorenus]

Medical schools won't care (at all) that the classes you took were harder. A C is a C, and your GPA should be your main priority. Right now you should be focused on raising your GPA not lowering it, particularly since you're aiming for NYU. If you care about these subjects so much, check out some books and learn about them on your own during your free time. You don't need tests and grades to tell you you've learned something.

As for the MCAT, a 12, 12, and 7 isn't going to help you any with NYU either. You shouldn't be aiming for a 7, buy some verbal books and practice your ass off to raise it to at least a 9.


EDIT: In case you weren't aware, the average GPA for incoming med students last year at NYU was a 3.75 and the average MCAT was a 33Q.

 

[romanjetfighter]

take easy classes. adcoms will not see how hard classes are for you. adcoms will not care about the B you got in OchemII and think of it as an A just because you say "the teacher was a super hard grader!!!!!"

 

[JESSFALLING]

I'm sorry that you hated US History...it's my all-time favorite class. I guess it depends, like anything, on the prof. I would have majored in history if every prof. was as good.

Anyway, I agree with above poster - focus on your GPA and MCAT if MD is your goal!! I strongly suggest saving the graduate coursework for graduate school. If you try and perform poorly, it will show every adcom that you can't handle rigor. That is not the message that you likely want to convey.

On that note, I also think it's ridiculous to enroll in advanced coursework unless you have steller (35+) MCAT scores. Why would you want to take advanced coursework unless you have solidified your foundation?

Maybe you can do an MD/MS program if your future school offers one and you insist on taking advanced science course work? If, instead of classes, you want some good reading... buy a copy of the Feynman lectures. QED by Feynman is a classic too.

 

[NickNaylor]

I disagree with some of the above comments; most adcoms do consider academic rigor when looking at your course history. While that doesn't mean you can average Bs and Cs, the occasional B+ or B might be forgiven given the difficulty of the courses.

Like someone else said, you might want to consider focusing on research in medical school if you're interested in it (MS, MD/PhD programs).

 

[kexy]

I'm confused. What year are you in? Your 3rd? 4th? When are you applying, at the end of your 4th year? If I were you, I would take easier classes to raise your GPA up until the semester before the summer in which you're applying. Resist the urge to take your hard classes until after your AMCAS app is turned in. (So if you're applying to enter in 2013, take easy classes until June 2012). Then, in your 5th year (which I am assuming will be the year during which you apply), take your hard classes to your heart's content. As long as you apply early and are fortunate enough to get an acceptance before winter grades come out, no one will care if you get a C or two.

 

[ilovechemistry]

Im just finishing up my third year. I have considered MD/PhD but I wont get it because of my gpa but I think I might take a leave from medical school after 2nd year to get a PhD (the director of the MD/PhD program told me that a few students have done that).

 

[NickNaylor]

That's certainly an option. U. Chicago has a program for MD students that provides a fully-funded MD/PhD that you begin after the second year (i.e., you pay for the pre-clinical years of the MD, but the PhD and clinical years are fully paid for). Since it's a federally funded program I'm guessing other schools probably have it, but that's something to also look into.

 

[gettheleadout]

I disagree with some of the above comments; most adcoms do consider academic rigor when looking at your course history. While that doesn't mean you can average Bs and Cs, the occasional B+ or B might be forgiven given the difficulty of the courses.

Like someone else said, you might want to consider focusing on research in medical school if you're interested in it (MS, MD/PhD programs).

When you say the occasional B might be forgiven, are you saying that adcoms will look so closely at your grade history that a particular B (in a prereq, for example) will stand out as a negative in itself even if one's GPA is 3.8+?

 

[obscurehero]

whoa, whoa, whoa. Brakes!

Your dream school is NYU, but you have no idea of what the typical medical students' stats are. Your GPA is ok, but arguably not ideal. You've decided to take five years to graduate despite your advisers' advice, and you want to now tackle graduate level courses. Finally, you blame your 'red-neck' town for your poor grammar, but you're now almost a senior in college.

Yes, yes, I know SDN is full of over-achievers. However, I need to caution you. Try to graduate in four years, and if you really want to take graduate courses then enroll in a masters program. You haven't really said why you've paid for a fifth year of undergrad, but I'm assuming there's a good reason. Try to follow your advisers' advice.

As for the grammar, you REALLY need to work on that. Good communication is incredibly important as a doctor and as a future professional (wherever your life might take you). This includes 'grammar'. There are plenty of people who grew up in the inner city or the deep south with heavy accents who can still communicate effectively and intelligently. You should shoot for at least a 10 on your MCAT verbal. Might I suggest you tackle another English class or an upper level literature class?

Finally, these forums are great. But, you also need to really do your own research. You need to know what kind of stats top med schools require. You should also realize that there are plenty of students with lower GPA's ~3.4-3.5 who still make it into MSTP programs.

 

[n3xa]

Depends on the graduate class. I found that taking grad classes as an undergrad wasn't so terrible because my grad student classmates were too busy with research/work/teaching/life to really sit down and nail the material.

 

[Lil Mick]

I took a mixture of grad/upper division classes in a few areas as an undergrad. I thought many of them were easier (more concepts, less memorization for exams/papers) than the lower division classes I took. If you love it, go for it, especially if you're thinking of doing an MD/PhD program. Some programs will let you transfer credits or be excused from prerecs...

As for the GPA, it probably needs to be higher, although we tend to have more ranges in MD/PhD programs than straight MD programs (MCAT and research can help counteract that). If you apply to a few MD/PhD programs in addition to MD, you might not have the debt that you'd accrue if you took a break after MS2. Most schools look for students who would be willing to do what you're thinking of doing when they interview MD/PhD applicants...

 

[slatermd]

When you say the occasional B might be forgiven, are you saying that adcoms will look so closely at your grade history that a particular B (in a prereq, for example) will stand out as a negative in itself even if one's GPA is 3.8+?

I wouldn't get too wrapped up in this, gtlo. "The occasional B" won't shipwreck you regardless of what class it's in, especially with a 3.8.

I don't think Mr. N is trying to make a case that all B's are scrutinized, just that some are ignored/forgiven, or at the very least Adcoms understand why you wold get a B in a difficult class.


Also, OP, do you think you could ace the classes? I know you don't know exactly how hard they'll be/what they'll be like, but do you have reason to believe you'll do well? Do you have reason to believe you'll do poorly?

 

[munchymanRX]

Hello everyone,
I am very interested in science and am wanting to take extremely hard science courses at my university and I am worried they might bring down my gpa. Im talking about graduate level classes in chemistry and biology such as Organic Synthesis, Advanced Analytical Chemistry, Molecular Biology, Cancer Biology, Bio-organic phenomena, Endocrinology Mechanisms, Advanced Eukaryote Genetics, and Medical Psychology. I go to UofL and I currently have the unfortunate gpa of 3.46 because some semesters I had a little too much fun being in a fraternity while I decided to take the engeneering physics version and I really struggle with general education classes and I ended up getting a C in history (I will never retake that, that class was hell) and I have many B's thanks to humanity courses. When I graduate I will have a degree in biology (cellular concentration), chemistry with biochemistry emphasis, and hopefully a math minor. I have five years paid for so im going an extra year so I can take those difficult graduate courses. My advisors want me to graduate in four years but I cant resist to take those classes when there free. Ive already taken some graduate classes and did great. But how would medical schools judge me if I ended up getting C's in those classes and ended up killing my gpa. I hate that I have such a strong interest in these things and it could kill my gpa while many students have 4.0's because they had easier majors. My dream medical school is at NYU. I want to be a doctor that works mainly with the poor who cannot afford health insurance. I could care less about money, never had any. I currently do research in organic synthesis and I believe im about to be co-author for a paper that hopefully will get published. In a few months I will be a certified pharmacy technician. And im trying to find time to do some community service. Any advice would be much appreciated. I havent taken the MCAT but my goal is at least a 12 in each science and I pray to get at least a 7 on the verbal reasoning (If I could get a 10 id probably hyperventilate and die).

(Sorry for any horrible grammar. English grammar is not my strong suit and I owe that to the redneck town I was raised in).

You're going to be fine. If you're seriously interested in the subject material comprising the classes you want to take, you will do well in them.

As for adcoms considering the difficulty of the courses, they don't. They're going to notice if you have a C or a B in prereq courses, but the breadth of courses taken by the applicant pool at large makes it impossible to take into account things like the difficulty of one bio class over another at every university in the country. This is why it's such a big numbers game until you get to the interview stage--there's simply too many applicants and too many variables. They have to standardize at some level.

 

[estradiol9]

I advise against taking 5 years to graduate. If you want to take graduate level classes then just graduate on time in 4 years and apply to a masters program. I'm sure that medical schools would rather see you with a bachelors degree and masters degree that you earned in average time rather than a bachelors degree that took an extra year? Plus what's wrong with more letters next to your name?

If you decide that you don't want to do a masters program, I still don't recommend taking the graduate level classes if there is any doubt in your mind that you wouldn't do well in them. If anything, you should be looking into easier classes that will raise your GPA or begin preparing for the MCAT.

 

[estradiol9]

Oh and totally random but I'm pretty sure biology of cancer, molecular biology, and endocrinology are all undergraduate level classes at my school.

 

[ilovechemistry]

I'm sure I will get either an A or B in the classes. I am aware that bad things could happen and I could get a C in the class. I don't want to get a masters degree because I don't want to have to pay for it. I have five years paid for because of scholarships and financial aid. Those classes are graduate classes. Molecular Biology and Cancer Biology are graduate classes which have the prerequisite of Advanced Biochemistry II. Yes, endocrinology is a undergraduate course I have already had, the one I want to take is endocrinology mechanisms. Taking another English class would be suicidal for my gpa and would be much harder for me than a science graduate class. And I asked my chemistry undergraduate advisor about the MD/PhD program and she laughed in my face and said that one needs nearly a 4.0 to get into a program like that.

 

[slatermd]

Would you be taking these classes during your application year? Or would you be putting off applying to take these classes?

 

[Narmerguy]

Unfortunately there's a very poor "difficulty:reward" ratio for classes when applying to medical schools. Sure, like Naylor said they may forgive the B but that's if they care to look. What if you already have other B's? What if your GPA isn't too hot and that class could have helped build an upward trend for you?

I don't at all want to advocate shying away from difficult courses but just remember not to fill your transcripts with them if you don't think you can perform at a similar level to your competition.

This unfortunate reality really robs a lot of premeds of a good, enlightening college experience because they're all so concerned with the bigger picture and making sure they position themselves for the next phase. I can't criticize them too much...not everyone has the luxury of knowing they can get into medical school and take all the interesting/challenging courses they want.

 

[ilovechemistry]

Many of you do sound like my premed friends who tell me that I'm crazy for wanting to take hard classed. I have noticed that in my school, that many of the premedical students that are biology majors with strong GPA's are not really that smart. Many of the students rely on oldtests and labs to pull them through. Unfortunately, in my school there are several teachers who teach the same classes at different levels. I always take the harder class to get smarter instead of looking to get the easy A. I have a feeling im going to kill them on the MCAT in the science section. In my school the physiology class is what really shows the rankings of the intelligence of students. Many of the same students that now have a 4.0 gpa that are in the class have C's because they don't know how to study for the exam because the professor never gives back the exams and he chooses to make the difficulty level of the class very hard. I was one of eleven people in my class of 126 to get an A in that class. I can honestly say that if I don't do well in those graduate classes then I probably don't deserve to go to medical school. I would feel morally wrong to just "take easy classes," I have to challenge myself and make my life extremely difficult. I don't want to go to Medical School with only knowing how to cheat my way through with tests, I want to know everything possible. I don't want to be an incompetent doctor, I want to be "Dr. House". What are your feelings on this? Do you feel like your selling yourself short because your afraid to challenge yourself with the hard classes?

 

[Lil Mick]

I definitely need to challenge myself. I'm the sort who will act out in class if the material is too easy/rote memorization without mechanisms explaining why/too slow of pace. I usually don't do so well in those classes (or, early in my schooling, got lots of detentions or kicked out of class because of that) unless I have a teacher who's willing to differentiate for me or tolerate asking about the outside reading I've done (like Feynman diagrams or tunneling in our intro physics class).

With respect to MD/PhD programs, most of us don't have 4.0s or 40s on our MCAT (programs at which I interviewed anywhere from 3.6 and 33 to 3.9 and 38). We also tend to be more into challenging ourselves and independent learning than the MDs in school (grad classes in undergrad, crazy triple majors...). I'd peruse some of the program websites for stats on admissions or what else you'd need to do to be competitive for such a program (non-MSTPs usually have lower stats).

 

[slatermd]

I don't want to be an incompetent doctor, I want to be "Dr. House". What are your feelings on this?

Facepalm. You don't want to know our feelings on this.

Regarding the rest of your post, take a breath, buddy. If you get too worked up and lash out against the advice that YOU asked for, this whole thread will go incendiary.

So far, here's the track you're on:

OP: Hey SDN. Here's my situation, should I do this?
SDN: Hmm. Think about it. You might not want to.
OP: Ok, well, you're wrong.

Where does your critical thinking tell you that track leads?

Just to tidy up a bit:

1. Saying "protect your GPA" is not advising you to cheat.
2. I don't think anyone has called you "crazy" yet. It's not crazy to want to challenge yourself with great courses; it could, however, be self-sabotage if it destroys your GPA
3. Finally, this would be a VERY different discussion if you were sitting on something prettier than a 3.46. If you had a higher GPA and wanted to risk a few B's and C's it would give a lot less pause. Right now you need to weigh how badly you want to take ONE year of classes against how badly you want admission to medical school.

Also, fill us in on the timing. Are you going to apply this summer and take those classes next year? Or are you going to take those classes and then apply after you have completed them?

If they are listed under "future coursework" on you application, a bunch of B's would have a much different effect than if they get verified into your AMCAS GPA.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

Many of you do sound like my premed friends who tell me that I'm crazy for wanting to take hard classed. I have noticed that in my school, that many of the premedical students that are biology majors with strong GPA's are not really that smart. Many of the students rely on oldtests and labs to pull them through. Unfortunately, in my school there are several teachers who teach the same classes at different levels. I always take the harder class to get smarter instead of looking to get the easy A. I have a feeling im going to kill them on the MCAT in the science section. In my school the physiology class is what really shows the rankings of the intelligence of students. Many of the same students that now have a 4.0 gpa that are in the class have C's because they don't know how to study for the exam because the professor never gives back the exams and he chooses to make the difficulty level of the class very hard. I was one of eleven people in my class of 126 to get an A in that class. I can honestly say that if I don't do well in those graduate classes then I probably don't deserve to go to medical school. I would feel morally wrong to just "take easy classes," I have to challenge myself and make my life extremely difficult. I don't want to go to Medical School with only knowing how to cheat my way through with tests, I want to know everything possible. I don't want to be an incompetent doctor, I want to be "Dr. House". What are your feelings on this? Do you feel like your selling yourself short because your afraid to challenge yourself with the hard classes?

I don't know what you want to hear from us exactly. During our engineering orientation they specifically told us that schools don't care how "difficult" your major or classes were, and that if were looking to be as competitive as possible for med school engineering probably wasn't the best path. So no, it REALLY doesn't matter if your classes were harder. The help you'll get from these classes while taking the MCAT is also pretty minimal.

I still don't understand why you need to take a class to feel like you've learned something. Why don't you just audit it or learn it on your own.

Also, House is a fake doctor practicing a fake specialty on fake patients in a fake hospital.

P.S: YOU'RE YOU'RE YOU'RE YOU'RE YOU'RE AFD;LKASJF;LKJAS;DLFKJAL;SKJFDDF

 

[circulus vitios]

The blind leading the blind.

"Medical schools don't care about difficulty."
"Actually they do care about academic rigor."
x100000

 

[sc4s2cg]

I don't understand, people have been telling me that (in my situation) adcoms will see that my GPA is low because of my previous nursing classes. Do they not care about my previous major when they see my (MD) cGPA went from 3.8 to 3.2 before I switched from Nursing? My sGPA is around 3.4-3.5ish.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

The blind leading the blind.

"Medical schools don't care about difficulty."
"Actually they do care about academic rigor."
x100000

I'm pretty sure this is something LizzyM has talked about before, particularly in regards to double majors/engineering majors/etc. If you can't keep a 3.5 or above, then you probably shouldn't be doing it in the first place seemed to have been the advice.

 

[slatermd]

Hate to be the Debbie Downer, but this is a classic question with an easy (but difficult to hear) answer.

I'll paraphrase an FAQ for MIT's undergrad I read ages ago:

Q: Is it better take difficult courses and get B's, or easier courses and get A's?
A: The majority of our competitive applicants take difficult courses and get A's.

Set yourself a higher bar, and rise to the occasion if you can.

From another thread, about 40 minutes ago.

 

[circulus vitios]

I'm pretty sure this is something LizzyM has talked about before, particularly in regards to double majors/engineering majors/etc. If you can't keep a 3.5 or above, then you probably shouldn't be doing it in the first place seemed to have been the advice.

People who work on admissions committees are...people. Some might appreciate harder majors and harder classes. Some might not. LizzyM is a good source of information and she is on an admissions committee, but she's just one of hundreds.

 

[LizzyM]

I'm one of more than a dozen on a team. We review applications together, we discuss, we come to decisions.

A low gpa is going to screen you out at some places such that no one will ever know that you took some impressive grad course.

Educate yourself. Only 10% of the applicants offered admission at NYU had gpa <3.55. And you can almost bet that they had MCATs that were at or above NYU's average of 11, 12, 12.

You are trying to get an education which is admirable but that will not get you into medical school. Sad to say but gaming the system and playing the game is how people get into medical school. With the buyers market we have (more than twice as many applicants as seats) it is hard to be merely average and expect to achieve your goal.

With regard to MD/PhD, you need bench experience in research, not just classes. Publications are a plus. Your gpa and MCAT need to be as good or better than average for that school. The big advantage is that tuition is covered and there's a stipend but you'll work for it and be many years delayed in gettng the MD. On the other hand, if you want to be a physician scientist, who spends more than 50% time in the lab, it is a good deal.

 

[ilovechemistry]

Ok, I will probably take easier courses then for the higher GPA. Would I be looked down upon if I decided to take those graduate classes as pass/fail or if I audited them.

 

[LizzyM]

Ok, I will probably take easier courses then for the higher GPA. Would I be looked down upon if I decided to take those graduate classes as pass/fail or if I audited them.

Unless you taking the maximum number of credits possible and pulling a 4.0, taking pass/fail or auditing courses is not helping your gpa.

If you have to take a course, expect the course to pull down your gpa, and can take it P/F then do so but if your other option is to take an easier class in which you can earn an A- or A, then that's a better choice for your gpa.

That said, there will be those people who major in engineering, take many difficult courses, and manage a 3.96. Those folks will be ahead of those who earn a 4.0 taking baby courses.

 

[gettheleadout]

Unless you taking the maximum number of credits possible and pulling a 4.0, taking pass/fail or auditing courses is not helping your gpa.

If you have to take a course, expect the course to pull down your gpa, and can take it P/F then do so but if your other option is to take an easier class in which you can earn an A- or A, then that's a better choice for your gpa.

That said, there will be those people who major in engineering, take many difficult courses, and manage a 3.96. Those folks will be ahead of those who earn a 4.0 taking baby courses.

Not that I disagree with you at all (because I don't) but how easily can someone actually go through 3/4 of their college career taking "baby courses?"

 

[LizzyM]

Not that I disagree with you at all (because I don't) but how easily can someone actually go through 3/4 of their college career taking "baby courses?"

You need about 30 credits in your major, intro courses in chem, bio, calculus and physics. O-Chem which is a second level course. Other than that, depending on the school, you can fill your gen ed requirements with 101 classes and ditto for the electives. Rather than a 201 and 301 level course after 101, some people will take more 101 courses.