Harder to get a Neuroscience PhD or an MD?

[mednoob]

I don't know much about PhD's in general, but I'm deciding whether to get a PhD in Neuroscience or Public Health or if to just go for an MD.

Generally, what would be more difficult to acquire? A PhD in subjects like Neuroscience and Public Health or an MD?

Also, how long would a PhD in Neuroscience and a PhD in Public Health take? I researched this extensively, but haven't been able to find the length of training to obtain a PhD in either of these subjects.

Thanks

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[dl2dp2]

these are vastly different fields and have vastly different standards.

furthermore, the degree of difficulty for PhD programs vary greatly across different institutions.

MD programs are generally similar to each other, though highly ranked places are much harder to get into.

i suggest you figure out what you want to do first.

 

[JHopRevisit]

These three fields are so vastly different in what kind of skills, knowledge, and day-to-day activities they involve that you might want to back up a bit and ask some more general questions, or give us some info about your background and motivation so we can talk you through it. Are you a freshman, sophomore, or a bit older?

To answer your question, a typical PhD in neuroscience might take five or six years. That varies widely by school and the student/PI involved. A Public Health PhD can be shorter (4 years, maybe, even three if you're really good/lucky and have the right project) if a lot of usable data is already collected. If you're going to be doing extensive field work and data-gathering it can be quite a bit longer.

MD programs are generally harder to get into overall. Obviously, elite MD programs and elite PhD programs are more difficult than less prestigious counterparts in either field.

 

[URHere]

I think the first thing you need to figure out is what exactly you want to get out of your degree in the first place. If you want to do neuroscience research, you should be going for the PhD in neuroscience without even worrying about the other degree programs (the same goes for the MD and Public Health PhD).

That being said, overall it is easier to get into most PhD programs than MD programs. Many schools receive fewer applications for PhD programs, and I know that at least a few schools are willing to accept everyone they interview into the PhD program as long as the interview goes well. Some schools even struggle to fill their PhD classes (even for neuroscience), so odds are far better than one might expect. This is vastly different from MD admissions where more than half of the applicants who are interviewed may be rejected.

Obviously, this varies from school to school and top programs are more difficult to get into for both PhD and MD programs, but at some schools at least, chances are better as a PhD applicant.

 

[strangeglove]

Having completed both an MD and a PhD in neuroscience, I would say that it is harder to get into an MD program than a PhD program in neuroscience. However, I would say, and many will argue with me, that getting a PhD in any field is harder once you're in than getting an MD. A PhD requires you to think really hard, be creative, and to be self-directed. An MD, once you're in, requires a lot of hard work, but is not that intellectually challenging. You learn a lot of stuff in med school, more than you do during a PhD, but most of what you learn is not any harder in terms of complexity than what you learn in undergrad. In grad school, you learn how to think about a very specialized area of knowledge. In medical school, you learn how to cram huge quantities of stuff into your brain for the purposes of using a small fraction of it sometime later.

Another thing is that there is much more competition in terms of jobs for PhDs than for MDs. Even if you do complete the PhD, for it to be worth anything you have to accomplish a good deal, such as publish some good papers. Pretty much everyone who gets an MD (in the US, at least) will have a job waiting for them once they graduate.

 

[Neuronix]

However, I would say, and many will argue with me, that getting a PhD in any field is harder once you're in than getting an MD.

I won't argue. It's just... different. And PhDs are variable. Some people luck into or pick a working project and bang out a thesis in good working order. The PI tells them exactly what to do or sets them out in a direction and they graduate in a timescale they like (whether that's more leisurely or more quickly) without much hardship or setback. I would disagree that grad school requires a great deal of independent thought. It requirs a great deal of sales and data. Unfortunately, how you acquire the data is not much of a concern.

Some people, like the brightest guy I know, join a big name lab at a big name institution, get scooped by someone in their own lab, and then fight with a project that doesn't work for years. While you can try to set yourself up for success, you don't know which group you're going to be in when you start.

The MD is very specific. You do x y and z and bam you're done. The PhD is often very non-specific, which creates a lot of its own stress. How should I proceed? Will my committee let me go? Etc...

Another thing is that there is much more competition in terms of jobs for PhDs than for MDs. Even if you do complete the PhD, for it to be worth anything you have to accomplish a good deal, such as publish some good papers. Pretty much everyone who gets an MD (in the US, at least) will have a job waiting for them once they graduate.

This part is very true. There are not enough jobs for PhDs, though it depends on the PhD. The academic job market is extremely competitive if you want to continue doing research. If you don't mind teaching undergrads for a so-so salary, you'll be ok. Most of the PhDs graduating from my lab have gone into industry, but I'm in an engineering lab that lends itself well to medical imaging products. In cell/molecular biology (this includes most of Neuroscience) it's hard to get a job with that PhD you just earned, and you can try for jobs in pharma but even that pool of jobs is very competitive.

You can always be a post-doc for the rest of your life making $50k and working your tail off. The USA always needs good slave labor. Few Americans are willing to do it, especially considering the tenure track route is more or less like a pyramid scheme, so we import all our post-docs. Being a resident is as bad as being a post-doc, if not worse, but there's no pyramid. All the residents will become docs, mostly high paid.

 

[RxnMan]

I have a graduate degree and I am going through med school. I'll tell you that a PhD may harder to earn than a MD, but it doesn't have anything to do with "difficulty" of the curriculum (as stated above, PhD programs are much easier to get into, but there's also a big attrition rate). Both have big exams (PhDs have quals, MDs have the steps), both can say their stuff is harder (breadth vs. depth), but whatever.

I'll go out on a limb and say the PhD is probably harder on the student because of the politics involved. PhD candidates are often at the whim of funding agencies, whether their PI likes them, whether the post-doc likes them, at the whim of a stubborn solution/experiment that doesn't work after 6 mos of trouble-shooting, at the whim of their committee...the list goes on. If a PhD is harder, however that is defined, it is due to the nearly unending uncertainty, politics, and associated stress.

 

[Lokhtar]

I think that for a PhD, you really want to get into a great lab, or you can screw yourself over. If you can't get into a very good PhD school, you'll have a very tough time getting ahead in academia. A very tough time. Even from a great school, you'll have to navigate the wilderness of the post-doc world.

With a medical degree, you are generally guaranteed a very well paying job regardless of where you goto school. It could be MD, DO or Caribbean - if you pass the steps and finish residency, you'll make six figures almost guaranteed. PhD has no such guarantees. But it's a different degree - if you absolutely love basic science research - go for the PhD. PhD's create new knowledge, doctors apply it. That's basically the difference.

 

[Neuronix]

I think that for a PhD, you really want to get into a great lab, or you can screw yourself over. If you can't get into a very good PhD school, you'll have a very tough time getting ahead in academia. A very tough time. Even from a great school, you'll have to navigate the wilderness of the post-doc world.

I disagree with this. If you do a reasonably good job as a grad student, say 1-2 publications, and are a US citizen fluent in English, you will probably have your pick of post-docs. It is very hard to recruit post-docs except for the tip-top labs because everyone knows the academic pipeline is practically shut down, so who wants to work 5+ more years for little pay, high hours, and stress for a job that probably doesn't exist?

 

[undergrad101]

I am an undergraduate student graduated with a neuroscience degree from U of T in canada but my grades arent what the MD schools accept i was wondering has anyone studied MD overseas in Carribeans ? are they legit and if they are would i be able to practic in Canada after even if i dont do residency in Canada?

 

[K31]

I am an undergraduate student graduated with a neuroscience degree from U of T in canada but my grades arent what the MD schools accept i was wondering has anyone studied MD overseas in Carribeans ? are they legit and if they are would i be able to practic in Canada after even if i dont do residency in Canada?

You'll get much better answers if you post this in the pre-MD forum, but general advice around here is to avoid the Carribean unless it is absolutely your only option.

 

[bd4727]

I disagree with this. If you do a reasonably good job as a grad student, say 1-2 publications, and are a US citizen fluent in English, you will probably have your pick of post-docs. It is very hard to recruit post-docs except for the tip-top labs because everyone knows the academic pipeline is practically shut down, so who wants to work 5+ more years for little pay, high hours, and stress for a job that probably doesn't exist?

Yeah I think Neuronix is very right about this.

 

[Thioester]

The general consensus is that admission to M.D. programs is harder; and, completion of a Ph.D. is harder.

 

[Shifty B]

The general consensus is that admission to M.D. programs is harder;

In most situations, this is true. the number of applicants versus the number of spots is generally higher for MD spots.

and, completion of a Ph.D. is harder.

Now this, on the other hand, is just stupid.

I was going to build this whole analogy about how that was like trying to compare the difficulty of performing a face transplant or building a space shuttle from scratch. But then I realized that was wrong. It's actually more like comparing two different types of endurance races.

Medical school is like a triathlon. It's long and grueling, has well-defined stages, you know the course in advance, and you know exactly when you are going to finish.

Getting a PhD is like running indefinitely. You start running having no idea where you're going, with no idea of whether you're even getting closer to your destination. You might run for a while, only to have someone tell you that the race has even started yet and you have to go back to the start. You might run for a while only to realize you're exactly where you started and never left. There are going to be a bunch of people on your path pointing to different directions, none of which is necessarily the right way. Finally, there's going to be a guy behind you in a car. Every once in a while you can stop and ask him for directions, and show you a map. The problem is, every time you look at the map it's totally different. Plus, you actually have some opportunity to negotiate where you're actually going.

Is a PhD harder? Maybe. More people who start out trying to get PhD leave their programs without one. This probably has more to do with the intense pressure on medical schools to graduate their students because of the crushing debt they place on their students.

Also, it's heavily dependent on your mindset. If you're the kind of person who really can't tolerate uncertainty, the PhD is going to be much harder. If you're the kind of person who hates memorizing things, can't stand to sit down and study for five straight hours, and can't stand the hierarchy of having to do what your intern, senior resident, or attending says even when you disagree, then an MD Is going to be harder.

 

[TKeg4]

Medical school is like a triathlon. It's long and grueling, has well-defined stages, you know the course in advance, and you know exactly when you are going to finish.

Getting a PhD is like running indefinitely. You start running having no idea where you're going, with no idea of whether you're even getting closer to your destination. You might run for a while, only to have someone tell you that the race has even started yet and you have to go back to the start. You might run for a while only to realize you're exactly where you started and never left. There are going to be a bunch of people on your path pointing to different directions, none of which is necessarily the right way. Finally, there's going to be a guy behind you in a car. Every once in a while you can stop and ask him for directions, and show you a map. The problem is, every time you look at the map it's totally different. Plus, you actually have some opportunity to negotiate where you're actually going.

This is the best analogy of both programs I have heard. In fact it should be tacked and referred to anytime this forum gets the "should I do MD, PhD or MD/PhD?"

 

[ChemMed]

I don't know much about PhD's in general, but I'm deciding whether to get a PhD in Neuroscience or Public Health or if to just go for an MD.

Generally, what would be more difficult to acquire? A PhD in subjects like Neuroscience and Public Health or an MD?

Also, how long would a PhD in Neuroscience and a PhD in Public Health take? I researched this extensively, but haven't been able to find the length of training to obtain a PhD in either of these subjects.

Thanks

You are talking about a 180 degrees of difference in the training. Length (PhD) is program/adviser dependent. Pick wisely young one. They will make or break you. A PhD program is easier to get into and there is no guarantee of a job at the end of it. Your adviser provides connections (again adviser is key). MD/DO will give you more open doors and a secure income. The schooling is harder to get into, but the material isn't hard, its just that there is a LOT of it and it comes fast and furious. Take that as you will. Good luck.

 

[chidoman]

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