Hardest working docs

[kduarte1]

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In America certain specialties are valued far more than others. Many people complain about radiologists, or dermatologists making much more than primary care docs. I just want to know what specialties you guys think deserve the most money. What kind of docs work the hardest? Which residency spots should be the most competitive? Is reimbursement system fair in america? What specialists are valued the most in Europe and other countries? Is their system fair over there?

 

[RySerr21]

as far as hardest working (most hours and difficulty) i've heard that general surgery is second to none.

 

[45408]

as far as hardest working (most hours and difficulty) i've heard that general surgery is second to none.

Eh, I'd say more like transplant surgery or CT surgery. General surgery also varies widely, based on what kind of hospital/practice you're working for.

 

[copperfrog09]

I shadowed an Orthopedic/ Trauma Surgeon one summer and I can't imagine anyone working harder or putting in any more hours than he did. It was unbelievable. And his nights were often spent in the ER on top of his days in the office and surgery.

 

[DrYoda]

Neurosurgeons have a reputation for working crazy-long hours.

 

[Live4Life]

Oncologists should earn way more money than any other doc, their job is way more taxing on one's psyche.

 

[Lukkie]

Oncologists should earn way more money than any other doc, their job is way more taxing on one's psyche.

not really

 

[Lukkie]

and if we are paying by 'hardest work', nurses should be millionaires

 

[Live4Life]

not really

Have you spent extensive time on an oncology ward following around an oncologist? The hours the attendings put in at my university are ridiculous, easily 80-100 hours a week.

 

[TexasPhysician]

I don't see how any physician really deserves more than another. We are all helping patients in one way or another.

 

[Lukkie]

Have you spent extensive time on an oncology ward following around an oncologist?

yes

 

[jr doctor in sd]

and if we are paying by 'hardest work', nurses should be millionaires

With 2 years experience working at an Infusion center, I can definitely say nurses should NOT be millionaires.

Oncologists work very hard, but they have some down time as well.

 

[DOCTORSAIB]

and if we are paying by 'hardest work', nurses should be millionaires

Are you smoking crack?

The quality of nurses these days is EMBARRASING. With the exception of maybe ICU nurses and few exceptions here and there, nurses these days are a bunch of fat (esp the night shift) and lazy people who think they know more "clinical medicine" than residents/young attendings. Sadly, they have more rights today than ever in the history of medicine. ANYWAYS...

The hardest working physicians are the ones who put their craft before everything else in life.

 

[footballrules]

In America certain specialties are valued far more than others. Many people complain about radiologists, or dermatologists making much more than primary care docs. I just want to know what specialties you guys think deserve the most money. What kind of docs work the hardest? Which residency spots should be the most competitive? Is reimbursement system fair in america? What specialists are valued the most in Europe and other countries? Is their system fair over there?

In general, surgeons work the longest hours. However, if you want to talk about who works the hardest, you can't just look at the number of hours a person works.

I know a cardiologist when I worked at a different hospital few years ago that I would call the hardest working doctor I've ever seen so far and he would always try his best to be out of hospital at a decent time every day to spend time with his wife and children.

There were a couple of surgeons at the same hospital that had to work long hours, but boy these couple of surgeons were lazzy as could be (naturally smart, but terrible work ethic).

 

[xanthomondo]

and if we are paying by 'hardest work', nurses should be millionaires

hahahaha

the nurses that I saw on my volunteering stint were experts in avoiding patients and killing time so that they could go home

 

[kduarte1]

I def disagree with the fact all doctors should be paid the same. Some residencies are so much tougher and longer than others. A psychiatrist def doesnt deserve as much as a surgeon. I hate the fact the anesthesiologists, dermatologists and radiologists make so much money, I personally don't think they deserve it at all. Internal medicine docs deserve much more, i personally think they work very hard. They need to know so much. I think all the surgical subspecialties are fair in reimbursements, anyone who goes through 6+ years of surgical residency def. deserves to make more than 400K. General sugreons on the other hand are unfairly treated

 

[footballrules]

I def disagree with the fact all doctors should be paid the same. Some residencies are so much tougher and longer than others. A psychiatrist def doesnt deserve as much as a surgeon. I hate the fact the anesthesiologists, dermatologists and radiologists make so much money, I personally don't think they deserve it at all. Internal medicine docs deserve much more, i personally think they work very hard. They need to know so much. I think all the surgical subspecialties are fair in reimbursements, anyone who goes through 6+ years of surgical residency def. deserves to make more than 400K. General sugreons on the other hand are unfairly treated

I know a married couple that are both CT surgeons and they own a house in a small city in the central part of the state of Wiscosnin that is worth 1.5 million dollars.

Sad thing is, they are never home to enjoy the house. The yard looks like garbage because they don't have any time to do yard work. So mom and dad moved into the house and they do all of the house work, yard work, and shopping.

 

[Ennis]

not really

Touché.

 

[Ennis]

I def disagree with the fact all doctors should be paid the same. Some residencies are so much tougher and longer than others. A psychiatrist def doesnt deserve as much as a surgeon. I hate the fact the anesthesiologists, dermatologists and radiologists make so much money, I personally don't think they deserve it at all. Internal medicine docs deserve much more, i personally think they work very hard. They need to know so much. I think all the surgical subspecialties are fair in reimbursements, anyone who goes through 6+ years of surgical residency def. deserves to make more than 400K. General sugreons on the other hand are unfairly treated

Maybe so, but a definite moral argument can be made that professional athletes don't deserve their millions. It comes down to supply and demand. If there were a ton of derms out there, their salaries would decline.

 

[TehDoc]

and if we are paying by 'hardest work', nurses should be millionaires

I did lol.

 

[kduarte1]

Maybe so, but a definite moral argument can be made that professional athletes don't deserve their millions. It comes down to supply and demand. If there were a ton of derms out there, their salaries would decline.

Yea Its so unfair. I hate how the best minds in medicine now a days are being wasted on cosmetics. It seems like the mroe you do for a patient now a days the lower your respect and salary gets.

 

[pancakesyrup]

and if we are paying by 'hardest work', nurses should be millionaires

 

[Terpskins99]

I don't see how any physician really deserves more than another. We are all helping patients in one way or another.

👍 I'll take it a step further. I don't think any physician deserves anything period. We all chose this profession and lifestyle. Nobody forced us into it. If you're not happy with the results, the only person you have to blame is yourself. I've always looked at medicine as being like any other job. If you provide a service that few others are capable of giving, you will be compensated accordingly. Thats it. Deserve has nothing to do with it.

What kind of docs work the hardest? Which residency spots should be the most competitive?

At the hospitals I've been around, the general and vascular surgeons seem to have the most demanding jobs. They are super busy and always stay late. I think the most competitive residency should be the one with the smallest margin for error. Imo, that is neurosurgery (which is an extremely competitive residency, fyi). For the same reason, I believe trauma and pediatric surgery should be the most competitive fellowships.

 

[nVictus]

sorry... after shadowing and working in a hospital and seeing how nurses treated my own family... i scoff at the comment that nurses should be millionaires. it's disgusting how some of these nurses behave and without remorse too. to act the way they do with the little training some of them have... it's mind boggling.

 

[xanthomondo]

👍 I'll take it a step further. I don't think any physician deserves anything period. We all chose this profession and lifestyle. Nobody forced us into it. If you're not happy with the results, the only person you have to blame is yourself. I've always looked at medicine as being like any other job. If you provide a service that few others are capable of giving, you will be compensated accordingly. Thats it. Deserve has nothing to do with it.



At the hospitals I've been around, the general and vascular surgeons seem to have the most demanding jobs. They are super busy and always stay late. I think the most competitive residency should be the one with the smallest margin for error. Imo, that is neurosurgery (which is an extremely competitive residency, fyi). For the same reason, I believe trauma and pediatric surgery should be the most competitive fellowships.

Not when the government steps in and gives you insultingly-low compensation, just because they can.

 

[Terpskins99]

Not when the government steps in and gives you insultingly-low compensation, just because they can.

Its a matter of perspective then. American docs still get compensated far better than docs anywhere else in the world.

And its up to you whether you want to work in an environment where most of your salary is made up by government compensation (disregarding the recent proposal that doctors "must provide services to medicare patients").

If you want to work in an environment where you only accept cash payments, you can do so (most of optho and plastics are conducted this way, and a growing number of pcp's are doing this as well). It just happens to be more convenient (i.e. lucrative) to get paid through medicare/insurance.

 

[patekpremed]

I know a married couple that are both CT surgeons and they own a house in a small city in the central part of the state of Wiscosnin that is worth 1.5 million dollars.

Sad thing is, they are never home to enjoy the house. The yard looks like garbage because they don't have any time to do yard work. So mom and dad moved into the house and they do all of the house work, yard work, and shopping.

Sounds like if they can afford to have a $1.5 house, they can afford to pay someone 6 months out of the year to do the yard? Just a thought...

 

[engineeredout]

I think premeds deserve to get the most money because lets face it, they obviously work harder than any physician and obviously know more about the medical system than any doctor who has forgotten what it is really all about. Pay the premeds six figures!!

 

[xanthomondo]

Its a matter of perspective then. American docs still get compensated far better than docs anywhere else in the world.

And its up to you whether you want to work in an environment where most of your salary is made up by government compensation (disregarding the recent proposal that doctors "must provide services to medicare patients").

If you want to work in an environment where you only accept cash payments, you can do so (most of optho and plastics are conducted this way, and a growing number of pcp's are doing this as well). It just happens to be more convenient (i.e. lucrative) to get paid through medicare/insurance.

Also another bad point of this is that while yes, we don't go into medicine for money, money is a part of our lives. While we are 90% happy with what we do (and 10% unhappy about the situation) you cannot just stick your head in the sand and let others take advantage of your skills. You will work for less than you're worth, but why should you have to?

The population wants perfection from you and they will sue your pants off if you don't deliver (and sometimes you'll even get sued when you deliver flawlessly). So in this case you're getting screwed, but you don't think we should expect a FAIR salary?

 

[kduarte1]

Also another bad point of this is that while yes, we don't go into medicine for money, money is a part of our lives. While we are 90% happy with what we do (and 10% unhappy about the situation) you cannot just stick your head in the sand and let others take advantage of your skills. You will work for less than you're worth, but why should you have to?

The population wants perfection from you and they will sue your pants off if you don't deliver (and sometimes you'll even get sued when you deliver flawlessly). So in this case you're getting screwed, but you don't think we should expect a FAIR salary?

Couldn't agree with this more. I hate how many people say you shouldn't be in medicine for the money. I do agree with this statement to a point but bottom line is its a job. You do it to get paid. If you tell all the doctors that they can take the year off and be paid i bet you 99 percent of them would take it in a heartbeat. I hate how people build up medicine, like the world is doing you a favor by letting you practice so you shouldn't worry about getting paid or your future. There is no profession out there that requires more training and more dedication than doctors. If doctors should not be the highest paid people in the society then who should? There not another profession out there that deserves more money than a doctor.

 

[ayushman80]

I'd say that ob/gyn have the hardest job. They get to work with cranky women, long hours, volatile situations, and get sued the most.

 

[xanthomondo]

I'd say that ob/gyn have the hardest job. They get to work with cranky women, long hours, volatile situations, and get sued the most.

Cranky = hormonal, go ahead, you can say it

 

[PermanentWaves]

All of the emergency docs I work with at the hospital unanimously declared it to be trauma surgery.

 

[45408]

and if we are paying by 'hardest work', nurses should be millionaires

Quite frankly, no. My wife's a nurse, and she can readily acknowledge that a number of the physicians work a lot harder than she does.

 

[JackInTheBox]

Couldn't agree with this more. I hate how many people say you shouldn't be in medicine for the money. I do agree with this statement to a point but bottom line is its a job. You do it to get paid. If you tell all the doctors that they can take the year off and be paid i bet you 99 percent of them would take it in a heartbeat. I hate how people build up medicine, like the world is doing you a favor by letting you practice so you shouldn't worry about getting paid or your future. There is no profession out there that requires more training and more dedication than doctors. If doctors should not be the highest paid people in the society then who should? There not another profession out there that deserves more money than a doctor.

Teachers. Maybe not the highest salaries, but they should definitely be paid more than what they earn now.

 

[Terpskins99]

Teachers. Maybe not the highest salaries, but they should definitely be paid more than what they earn now.

heheh, I tried to argue this in a prior sociopolitical thread... and got thoroughly ripped to shreds for doing so. 😛

 

[zbruinz]

I know a married couple that are both CT surgeons and they own a house in a small city in the central part of the state of Wiscosnin that is worth 1.5 million dollars.

Sad thing is, they are never home to enjoy the house. The yard looks like garbage because they don't have any time to do yard work. So mom and dad moved into the house and they do all of the house work, yard work, and shopping.

Try living as a doctor in my area where the average home price is $2.5million, guess doctors here have to work even harder. 🙄

 

[JackInTheBox]

heheh, I tried to argue this in a prior sociopolitical thread... and got thoroughly ripped to shreds for doing so. 😛

Haha, anybody who thinks that doctors deserve a raise more than teachers has obviously never spent a day trying to control, let alone teach, a room full of 6 year olds hopped up on fruit snacks and juice.

Seriously though, while we'll all graduate hundreds of thousands in debt and be earning peanuts during our residencies, our earning potential is much, much higher in the long run. Teachers, who are responsible for laying the foundations for the next generation of physicians, will be earning not much more than the average resident for the rest of their careers.

 

[footballrules]

Try living as a doctor in my area where the average home price is $2.5million, guess doctors here have to work even harder. 🙄

It is a matter of choice man, a matter of choice. The two doctors I'm talking about were doctors for a while before they got married. So they already had big bucks in the bank before they got married. About location, that is a matter of choice.

 

[jr doctor in sd]

Many people in my family (including immediate and extended) are teachers. It is not as bad as you think. Get bonus $ for having a master's degree, for teaching over 10 years, for working at a PUBLIC school, for working in an underserved area (remember 4 years in med school + maybe 4 years residency is 8 years and you leave with debt). Most of my family members pull in the ~80,000 range with the 10 years of experience and slightly higher education backgrounds, with all working for public high schools.

I agree that the job is tough and takes some hours outside of the classroom for tutoring and grading but I also know many of these family members who pick up something part time every summer to make extra $ so it is not rare for one to pull in six figures a year and still have a month of Christmas Break to have for themselves + a week for Spring Break + all those days off in between which are nice!!! 👍

Haha, anybody who thinks that doctors deserve a raise more than teachers has obviously never spent a day trying to control, let alone teach, a room full of 6 year olds hopped up on fruit snacks and juice.

Seriously though, while we'll all graduate hundreds of thousands in debt and be earning peanuts during our residencies, our earning potential is much, much higher in the long run. Teachers, who are responsible for laying the foundations for the next generation of physicians, will be earning not much more than the average resident for the rest of their careers.

 

[jr doctor in sd]

hahahaha

the nurses that I saw on my volunteering stint were experts in avoiding patients and killing time so that they could go home

Agree with this tons!!! hahaha. I was volunteering and one patient was talking to me for almost 30 minutes. Then, I politely said thank you so much for the conversation I enjoyed it (genuinely did) but I'll be back soon after I make my rounds and check on my other patients. Then the nurse came over and said "I feel SOOO bad for you she is SUCH a talker thank you for distracting her for a while" and I was standing there thinking wtf she didn't say anything rude or boring she talked about where she works and her family I don't mind hearing about it. And she wasn't one of those women who ONLY wants to talk about herself (lol if anyone wants to flame me for this but I had to say it), she asked me about my education, goals, etc.

The other most common thing I see nurses doing is ask me to please get all the charts ready for the next THREE days ready even though when I arrive they only have them pulled for one day in advance. I pull the charts while nurses celebrate last-minute cancellations and sit and talk about where they want to go on vacation, about hot dates (those ones I listen in on since a few nurses we have are hot), etc. I do think it is kind of crazy that a volunteer really does more than them in those 4 hours (delivering/retrieving blood and platelets, filing until the fingers are almost bleeding, getting the patients everything they want). The nurses just write down any problems the patients are having with their medications and start them on their drips and walk away back to conversation. 🙁 It's very disappointing but there are those that are truly amazing I just hope we train some more of the latter soon. And I agree with someone above who said they need to be better educated - I do not think they know enough. Another story for that but too long to type 👍

 

[footballrules]

Agree with this tons!!! hahaha. I was volunteering and one patient was talking to me for almost 30 minutes. Then, I politely said thank you so much for the conversation I enjoyed it (genuinely did) but I'll be back soon after I make my rounds and check on my other patients. Then the nurse came over and said "I feel SOOO bad for you she is SUCH a talker thank you for distracting her for a while" and I was standing there thinking wtf she didn't say anything rude or boring she talked about where she works and her family I don't mind hearing about it. And she wasn't one of those women who ONLY wants to talk about herself (lol if anyone wants to flame me for this but I had to say it), she asked me about my education, goals, etc.

The other most common thing I see nurses doing is ask me to please get all the charts ready for the next THREE days ready even though when I arrive they only have them pulled for one day in advance. I pull the charts while nurses celebrate last-minute cancellations and sit and talk about where they want to go on vacation, about hot dates (those ones I listen in on since a few nurses we have are hot), etc. I do think it is kind of crazy that a volunteer really does more than them in those 4 hours (delivering/retrieving blood and platelets, filing until the fingers are almost bleeding, getting the patients everything they want). The nurses just write down any problems the patients are having with their medications and start them on their drips and walk away back to conversation. 🙁 It's very disappointing but there are those that are truly amazing I just hope we train some more of the latter soon. And I agree with someone above who said they need to be better educated - I do not think they know enough. Another story for that but too long to type 👍

Nurses who are lazy people tend to move to the less demanding departments. Nurses who are in it for the money and are lazy try to get the highest level job that pays the most but requires the lowest amount of work. Nurses who want to work as a nurse and have a good work ethic tend to work in the more high demanding departments (ICU, CCU). Some nurses become a nurse because the pay is good and there is always a job (similar to how some pre-meds become doctors because the salary is good and there is a job at the end).

You will find lazy people all over the place and you will find people with a good work ethic around at some places. There are more lazy people then hard working people.

 

[Feli]

I don't see how any physician really deserves more than another. We are all helping patients in one way or another.

This is the bottom line IMO. It's very hard to make blanket statements, and anyone who does is going to be fairly inaccurate.

If I had to guess, I'd say that ortho, intensive care, OB, and some of the g-surg specialties are the hardest overall workers (hours, job difficulty, etc). Rads, derm, pod, anesth, psych, pharm, etc would be your "lazy" specialists if we are playing the stereotype game.

It all depends on the individuals, though. Some orthos work 40hr weeks in private practice clinics doing scopes... while others routinely work 100+ hours taking trauma call. Some g-surgeons are in a community hospital doing just appendectomies and minor issues while their colleagues are in in the big city doing transplants and research. There might be anesthesiologists who direct residencies, write research, and work 90hr weeks, and there might be others who work 8a-4p M-F with 6 weeks of vaca per year. etc etc etc

I'll take it a step further. I don't think any physician deserves anything period. We all chose this profession and lifestyle. Nobody forced us into it. If you're not happy with the results, the only person you have to blame is yourself. I've always looked at medicine as being like any other job. If you provide a service that few others are capable of giving, you will be compensated accordingly. Thats it. Deserve has nothing to do with it...

Good imput 👍

 

[xanthomondo]

Teachers. Maybe not the highest salaries, but they should definitely be paid more than what they earn now.

This is a myth.

Remember:
-Teachers only work 9 months out of the year (so their $44K per year starting salary (in my home school) converts to almost 59k per year)
-In addition to the three months off in the summer the teachers get government vacation days - many more than anyone will get in the private sector (MLK day, presidents weekend, etc)
-Teachers get excellent benefits, and in most areas nothing is deducted from their salary for it.
-Tenure. That's all I have to say

Not to mention the instant (and nice) raises they get if they earn a masters degree or Ed.D.

And before you berate me for the 44k quote, here's a link

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary

They claim the average falls anywhere between 39,200 - 42,600 depending what type of education, its not that far off.

 

[dienekes88]

zOMG. Don't you know that nurses perform all the real patient care!?

Doctors just hang out in their cushy on call rooms and look at their impersonal lists. They don't know the first thing about clinical medicine.

😉

 

[RySerr21]

sorry... after shadowing and working in a hospital and seeing how nurses treated my own family... i scoff at the comment that nurses should be millionaires. it's disgusting how some of these nurses behave and without remorse too. to act the way they do with the little training some of them have... it's mind boggling.

sorry... after shadowing and working in a hospital and seeing how doctors treated my own family... i scoff at the comment that doctors should be millionaires. it's disgusting how some of these doctors behave and without remorse too. to act the way they do with the training that they have... it's mind boggling.



It goes both ways. In every profession there will be people that don't work hard, perform well, or care about their jobs or the people they interact with. Thats just the way it is. There are fabulous nurses, just as their are fabulous doctors.

 

[footballrules]

sorry... after shadowing and working in a hospital and seeing how doctors treated my own family... i scoff at the comment that doctors should be millionaires. it's disgusting how some of these doctors behave and without remorse too. to act the way they do with the training that they have... it's mind boggling.



It goes both ways. In every profession there will be people that don't work hard, perform well, or care about their jobs or the people they interact with. Thats just the way it is. There are fabulous nurses, just as their are fabulous doctors.

Anyone that watched Hopkins on ABC this summer saw a few times where the doctors didn't show any remorse.

 

[Yuyukachoo]

Ugh, going to a school where nursing is the most popular major, all I hear is how tough their classes are (they only have to take one semester of orgo. and it's dumbed down) and how much money they will make once they get out and get a job. They all go on about how that while doctors saves patients, nurses save doctors from the mistakes they make. I guess I'll find out if that's true in two years.

 

[Narmerguy]

Anyone that watched Hopkins on ABC this summer saw a few times where the doctors didn't show any remorse.

Is there necessarily something wrong in not showing remorse? Perhaps that is the mechanism that some doctors use to handle the types of cases that they will see day in and day out for years. If they broke down after every case they had their bodies' wouldn't be able to take it 🙁

 

[footballrules]

Is there necessarily something wrong in not showing remorse? Perhaps that is the mechanism that some doctors use to handle the types of cases that they will see day in and day out for years. If they broke down after every case they had their bodies' wouldn't be able to take it 🙁

I takeit you didn't watch the show. If you did, you would be able to pick up what I'm refering to.