Harvard MSTP: NE vs HST

[garandoo]

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I finally recieved the Harvard secondary application package and started filing it out but I was not aware that MD/PhD applicants have to apply concurrently to the New Pathway and/or HST. My understanding of NE vs HST is quite limited, I only know that HST involves MIT and that it is desinged to prepare students for interdisciplinary research careers. I've heard of people accepting Harvard HST position over other institution's MSTP acceptance (supposedly re-applying in the second cycle). I am not one of those people, I will take mstp position elsewhere over HST.
I get the feeling that if you can get accepted for a MD/PhD position at Harvard, the applicant should be competitive enough for HST. HST's mission parallels that of MDPhD and so I felt like application through HST may appear as an indication of "strong interest/commitment in biomdeical research". But as long as I get accepted to the PhD program of my interest (DMS), I will be happy with NP, so I am wondering whether applying to NE will be a better strategy for my MDPhD applicantion. Any advice would be much appreciated.
Thanks.

 

[agp4]

When I applied last year, I decided that if I went to Harvard MD/PhD I only wanted to do the HST part for medical school. I ended up getting rejected for the MD/PhD interview, but did interview HST out of curiousity. The program is great for those people who want to be able to do medical research without the extra years for a PhD. The thing everybody kept telling me was that after two years at HST, it was "easy" to get into a PhD program and take a leave of absence from medical school. I was frightened off by both my interview (it was pretty hostile) and the attitude of the students. Maybe I just got a bad look at the school, but it wasn't for me (which is good, since I ended up getting rejected there later anyway). To me, it made sense for a MD/PhD to go for HST since it's meant for hardcore scientists. You should definitely take a look at the program if you get a chance - they've churned out some of the brightest minds in science in recent years.

 

[Habari]

I get the feeling that if you can get accepted for a MD/PhD position at Harvard, the applicant should be competitive enough for HST. HST's mission parallels that of MDPhD and so I felt like application through HST may appear as an indication of "strong interest/commitment in biomdeical research".

Firstly, I would apply to both programs if you aren't sure which would be 'right' for you at this point. Secondly, in many years the split between HST vs NP MSTP's can be 50/50 - even though many tend to think that there is an HST bias. Finally - there are people who only applied to NP, or applied to both and only got into NP, that are doing the MSTP there (or elsewhere) - so you needn't feel obligated to apply to HST in order to provide an implicit sign of committment to the medical-scientist process. HST most certainly isn't for everyone (definately wasn't for me), even if your background indicates that you would do well in that program.

 

[garandoo]

thanks for the input agp4 and Habari,
I was surprised to hear that students had hostile atmosphere at Harvard, I myself come from a not-so-friendly institution both at Undergrad/grad and the medical school(where I do my research), but even the snakes at my place talk about the hostility of Harvard med...mainly about the struggling postdocs and assistant profs...I hope I get an interview to see whether I get the same impression. Anyways, I will apply through both programs and see what happens.

 

[huxley]

For question 10 "Essay for Applicants Wishing to Combine the MD degree with another graduate program", if you are an MSTP applicant (biomedical sciences), do you also answer this question differently from question 14 (statement of intent) of the MD-PhD supplemental information? I'm just curious since they seem to overlap.

 

[Habari]

Thanks for the input agp4 and Habari,
I was surprised to hear that students had hostile atmosphere at Harvard, I myself come from a not-so-friendly institution both at Undergrad/grad and the medical school(where I do my research), but even the snakes at my place talk about the hostility of Harvard med...mainly about the struggling postdocs and assistant profs...I hope I get an interview to see whether I get the same impression.

I hope I didn't give that impression, it wasn't my intention. There are up and downsides to all programs; it's important to think about what you want to get out of it. Also, realize that what may apply to a post-doc/junior faculty level position may not for students at different institutions [different places may have different 'sweet spots' for training] - just something to think about, I'm not speaking about any place in particular.

 

[garandoo]

I didn't get the "scary" impresson of Harvard from your reply Habari, it's just that I've heard lots of nasty stuff going on at Harvard from my PI/other post-docs that know people there...I was just surprised that agp4 got that impression from students there (+ interviewer). It comes down to what I want out of the rogram and institution, like you said. again, I just hope I get to pick

I also felt that question 10 on the secondary application was redundant with question 14, I was thinking that MD/PhD applicants may not need to answer 10 since NP applicant is asked to write 1-8 and HST applicant for 1-9.
Does anybody know what is expected?

 

[agp4]

I didn't mean to say to that the students at Harvard were hostile at all. I admit that I probably played a large part in my bad faculty interview at Harvard, but I certainly felt like I was being tested rather than having a civil conversation. As for the students, the impression I got (and please, don't flame me HMS students) was that they were unhappier than the students at many other schools I visited. That, and the crazy average MD/PhD time (I was told to expect to be in Boston for 11+ years) seemed unacceptable to me. I guess for me, Harvard was not the place to be. But I must stress that I would encourage anyone that gets the chance to visit HMS, especially the HST program, to give a try - I certainly envy those folks sometimes (I miss math!).

 

[pureofheart]

I'm currently a student at HMS. I'm doing NP. I think you should apply to both, and interview for both to max. your chances. You can decide on the exact program when you get in.

Things to consider: HST has a heavier course load, which may or may not be a good thing. If you choose NP, would you be self-motivated enough to make good use of the extra free time? Also, because HST is a much smaller program, and students taken entirely separate classes - it can be a little bit isolating. In the current MD/PhD class, only two are doing NP, however.

That said, you're really choosing between diamonds and rubies here - either program will sufficiently prepare you as a clinician. Don't sweat this decision too much.

Also, the students here are not 100% gunners and hostile. Most people are pretty down-to-earth and genuine.

The average of MD/PhD here is around 9-10 years.

 

[stillsmilin]

The average of MD/PhD here is around 9-10 years.

why so long?

 

[leverp2000]

Yeah, I had the same question. Do we need to come up with something new for why we want to pursue a combined degree, even though we have that as part of the statement of intent?

For question 10 "Essay for Applicants Wishing to Combine the MD degree with another graduate program", if you are an MSTP applicant (biomedical sciences), do you also answer this question differently from question 14 (statement of intent) of the MD-PhD supplemental information? I'm just curious since they seem to overlap.

 

[huxley]

Yeah, I had the same question. Do we need to come up with something new for why we want to pursue a combined degree, even though we have that as part of the statement of intent?

Actually, I just submitted my secondary this past weekend and realized that if you check that you are an MD/PhD applicant, you are not prompted to answer question 10.

 

[leverp2000]

Great. One less essay to worry about 😳.

Actually, I just submitted my secondary this past weekend and realized that if you check that you are an MD/PhD applicant, you are not prompted to answer question 10.

 

[garandoo]

ahhh...if the online question automatically directed you I should have just done so...well, I kept calling thier office and finally found out that mdphd applicants need not to fill out question 10...confirming what other smart people found out already.
thanks for the feedback agp4 and pureofheart, can I ask what you do in your sparetime? Do you self-motivate yourself to hit the books or go to the lab?
I'm also wondering why it takes 9-10 years there, I read a review on the interviews at Harvard - there it said that the new director was really trying to cut the time down to 8 years, changing the start of the class to July and all.

 

[pureofheart]

thanks for the feedback agp4 and pureofheart, can I ask what you do in your sparetime? Do you self-motivate yourself to hit the books or go to the lab?

I spend time w/ fam. and friends, work-out, do music, etc... The way I see, my life is only going to get busier and harder from this day on - I'm going to do all the things I love while I still have quite a bit of free time.

 

[garandoo]

pureofheart, I like your philosophy and cannot agree more that the mdphd path will keep getting busier-damn glad to hear you are able to balance between work and social life. I hope I can balance them too...that is if I get accepted somewhere 😱

 

[agp4]

thanks for the feedback agp4 and pureofheart, can I ask what you do in your sparetime? Do you self-motivate yourself to hit the books or go to the lab?
I'm also wondering why it takes 9-10 years there, I read a review on the interviews at Harvard - there it said that the new director was really trying to cut the time down to 8 years, changing the start of the class to July and all.

Sorry if I muddled the conversation earlier. I think I misspoke in my first post, but I'm glad it seems to be sorted out. First year anywhere (especially the first 4-5 months) is pretty intense. My life sort of revolves around gross anatomy at the moment (and by that I don't mean in the stereotypical med- student-freaking-out-in-front-of-the-textbook sort of way). It's just a lot of material and a different way of looking at things, so I spend a considerable time studying for it. I spend the rest of my time goofing off with classmates (going camping, shooting pool, ...) I've decided that it'd be better to concentrate on being a med student for at least the first few months and worry about lab later - some of my MD/PhD classmates do go in for benchwork every now and then, but I can't really do that right now. I don't know very much about the changes going on at Harvard, but I think its nice that they're working on the problem with the length of their MD/PhD program. I wish you the best of luck, and if you have any other questions, PM me!

 

[Habari]

just a note (again, not specific to H/NP/HST): many programs claim that they are 'working' on reducing their graduation time down to 7-8 years (average). realize that this isn't always very easy, as structural changes to the graduate program philosophy or ease of changing the medical-graduate school dynamic would be required and can be rather difficult. there are certainly things that can be done (such as starting the summer before - as the harvard program has done) that have been shown to be quite effective. however, most programs that still have graduation times of 8-10 years won't be able to significantly reduce them during our tenures.

there is a balance required from the program to make sure you get the highest quality training, and understanding that taking 9/10 years is simply unecessary/wasteful. programs with these graduation times have the highest rate of 'burnout' amongst their students, according to a prominent program director, who is now dean of a graduate school. on the other hand, the program can't control everything; some pi's or graduate school departments may have a tradition of keeping their graduate students for a long time. but it is the role of a good program to advise you in these matters.

think about this when you choose a program; though quibbling about graduating in 7.5 years vs 8.5-9 may not seem like a big deal, it reflects an institutional mindset, for better or for worse.

 

[platybat]

<snip> HST most certainly isn't for everyone (definately wasn't for me), even if your background indicates that you would do well in that program.

So, for what it's worth, I'm in HST right now. I've experienced quite a bit of it, though I won't specify the number of years lest I suffer some sort of unpredicted wrath from who-knows-where.

I could rant for hours (ok, maybe one hour before I have to go sit in the corner and/or wipe the foam from the corners of my mouth) on the merits of the program as I understood it when I started, and the merits and DEmerits of the program as I understand it NOW. But I won't. I will, however, try and answer any questions you might have that would help you to decide if HST is for you. Of course, I'm a little distracted by some requirements of this year, so I can't promise to check in every day. That being said, what I say isn't worth much. I remember (vaguely) the hellish world you guys must be in now, and my words really won't matter in the end -- you're going to figure out what's right or wrong for yourself, and you may or may not be right (which is giving some sort of false impression that such a classification is valid), and you'll go where you go. And it will be good. And bad. And in between.

In summary -- I applied to both NP and HST, and didn't even receive an interview for NP. I guess I had "HST" written across my forehead. That's also how I felt at the time -- I figured I was the freaking posterchild of HST, albeit a slightly old one. I'd double majored in engineering, and done graduate work in engineering, amongst some other stuff. I lived and breathed for applied science. I eschewed "touchy-feely" tutorials and yearned for some hard-core technical this-that-and-the-other in the lab and lecture hall.

Now, I feel the best things about HST are the pedigree, and the dual citizenship I get with Harvard and MIT. The former, is, well, pathetic, but I like to think it might help someday (please?). The latter just gives me all sorts of options, many of which I don't have time to use -- gym privileges, library stuff, extra cool research labs, free residential options, etc. Oh, one more thing -- I don't have to deal with relentless tutorials/problem-based group learning sessions, for which I have little patience at times.

I'm sorry for any of you who felt your interviews were harsh or otherwise nasty/bad. I can tell you that for HST -- few people have time to be on the committee, and the rest of us worry about the limited impression you must get from those few. People are generally quite nice here. Your class, and the class above you, will really be the main personalities you sense on a regular basis -- certainly for the first two years. The HST class is small. If you don't live in the dorm and/or make an effort to be social with the NP class, you won't recognize them much more than you will the dental students. That being said, many people stay quite connected. Your entering MD class will be supplemented in the lecture hall by MIT grad students here and there, and some out-of-sequence MD students, but you'll be a pretty compact group -- the dynamics of your class will determine your sense of things. For example -- certain classes are known for being serious-gunners/insane-question-askers, and others are proudly on the slacker side of things.

Things I think about now, that didn't occur to me while applying --

*The effects of mixing graduate students and medical students in required first and second year courses.
*Fitting a thesis in if you're MD-only; finding the right lab -- esp for a phd. On our first day, I think I heard a phrase that went something like this: "30-something of you are in this room. 4 of you will graduate in 4 years." (!I might be wrong about the specific numbers, but it's something to think about.) For some stupid reason, I was suprised by this.
*It's great to get these super-fancy cutting edge researchers giving us MANY of our lectures, but for some reason, everyone seems to want to impress us with the latest, most advanced work -- and we're left to teach ourselves the basics sometimes.

OK, I'll stop babbling now, but I just wanted to say if there's anything I can tell you to help you decide on the whole HST package, I'd really like to try to help. The decision will affect you deeply for at least 2 intense years.

One thing to keep in mind when you go to your interviews -- and I'm sure many people say this all the time (but listen!) -- TALK to as many students as possible. You'll be nervous, then you'll be tired, and nervous, and worried about the next interview, but track down students. Introduce yourself, and ask all the questions you think are too stupid/ridiculous/<insert other adjective here> to ask.

(didn't I say I was going to stop babbling?)

Be as happy with your path as possible. The vision of the end goal may not always be enough to pull you through. That's a big change from all that pre-med jockeying and application-box-checking.

Now go have a beer. Or whatever you like. Or watch TV.

 

[BDavis]

programs with these graduation times have the highest rate of 'burnout' amongst their students, according to a prominent program director, who is now dean of a graduate school.

I strongly agree with this statement; our MSTP takes between 8-10 years (although those that interview here seem to get the impression that it is a 7 year program). Half of my class has dropped out (we started with 13, now there is 6) and it is unclear whether the remaining members are even going to pursue research ever because Baylor has burned us out. I feel like the attrition here is unusually high, but I don't know how our stats measure up. Our graduate school takes about 5.5-6 years for the Ph.D. (graduate students and MSTP students) so there is very little room to reduce the time for graduation. Medical school is already shortened to 3 years (although they reduce it by cutting the vacation time that medical students have). We have to take graduate classes and are exempt out of maybe 1 or 2 classes so I don't really know how our program will reduce the time to graduation. I think MSTP programs that have little or few graduate school requirements (classes) tend to be faster; the engineers here also seem to get out faster (but many are from Rice and are already familiar with the engineering faculty).

 

[platybat]

So, for what it's worth, I'm in HST right now. (snipped near-endless drivel)

Hey -- see my post above? My apologies -- that's what happens when you don't sleep for days. Well, that's apparently what happens when *I* don't sleep for days. Mindless self-important drivel. Sorry!


Seriously though, if you want to know about one person's impressions of HST, I promise to sleep before I reply.

 

[indigoblue]

Hi yall. Sounds like some cool discussion on Harvard's md/phd programs. I just applied, but AMCAS is still waiting for my transcripts. I called the admissions office and heard that as long as my AMCAS gets sent in, they will send a secondary, even if it is past the october 15 deadline. As far as I know, the deadline for receipt of all materials is November 15.

 

[milliardo_L]

Can someone post or PM me the questions of Harvard's secondary? At least the(if any) essay questions. Its getting late, and I am still waiting for AMCAS to process my app.