Harvard Ortho?

[fupi09]

Is the Harvard ortho residency program all its cracked up to be? I mean, can you basically walk away from that program with more career options than you could from other less well-known schools? Also, does anyone know what kind of step 1 scores are usually accepted? Thanks.

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[darrvao777]

haha...I'm not completely sure about this

but we did have a kid match into that program this year

and everyone in his class revered him like a God! haha

 

[Orthodoc40]

Well, I've seen a lot of the ortho residents working in the OR and was really UNimpressed. But I have little to compare that to. One person in the program told me its hard b/c they have you rotating through so many hospitals all the time, so you never see that many cases of the same type, and therefore, don't get that much experience with them. (For example, you might get to be in on just a few TKR's throughout your time there...)

 

[BUmmedic]

I interviewed there this year, and in all honesty (at least on my interview day), the only people that were psyched about the program were those that openly admitted they had been planning to rank them #1 all along and would regardless of the interview experience because they were dying to get into "Harvard," as if it was the end all be all of the ortho world. I (and I should use the term we, because I was definitely not alone... and it was a large group) was not very impressed with the program. They spent many minutes debunking the myths of their program and explaining what they weren't, without spending so much time on explaining what/who they were. That was left to the residents via a powerpoint presentation, and even that wasn't impressive (it came across as boasting). They seemed to not really be trying to recruit the candidates that would be the best fit, but more like presenting a product in the light that you would be crazy not to buy it, because it's just so good. I felt like I was listening to a door-to-door salesman without the ability to close the door. It was in this that I was most disappointed... because this actually proved that they - at least in part - are what people say they are. Not to mention that I have worked with many other staff who also have the opportunity work alongside the Harvard residents, and their described operative and clinical skills are not up to par.

 

[amojan99]

I interviewed there this year, and in all honesty (at least on my interview day), the only people that were psyched about the program were those that openly admitted they had been planning to rank them #1 all along and would regardless of the interview experience because they were dying to get into "Harvard," as if it was the end all be all of the ortho world. I (and I should use the term we, because I was definitely not alone... and it was a large group) was not very impressed with the program. They spent many minutes debunking the myths of their program and explaining what they weren't, without spending so much time on explaining what/who they were. That was left to the residents via a powerpoint presentation, and even that wasn't impressive (it came across as boasting). They seemed to not really be trying to recruit the candidates that would be the best fit, but more like presenting a product in the light that you would be crazy not to buy it, because it's just so good. I felt like I was listening to a door-to-door salesman without the ability to close the door. It was in this that I was most disappointed... because this actually proved that they - at least in part - are what people say they are. Not to mention that I have worked with many other staff who also have the opportunity work alongside the Harvard residents, and their described operative and clinical skills are not up to par.

Bet you still ranked em #1.

 

[BUmmedic]

Ranked them #9 (of 9). I don't know a single person (of those that I've talked to from the interview... and not the one's who had a hard-on for them going in) who ranked them higher than 4 or 5.

 

[LuckyMD2b]

Ranked them #9 (of 9). I don't know a single person (of those that I've talked to from the interview... and not the one's who had a hard-on for them going in) who ranked them higher than 4 or 5.

This sounds like pure hater-ation to me.

I'm sure Harvard's really missin' out on top candidates such as you and your homies.
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I doubt Harvard Ortho has to go far down on its match list.

 

[BUmmedic]

Quote: I doubt Harvard Ortho has to go far down on its match list.

Reality: At my interview session this year, the program chairs did state that they've had to go farther down their rank list in recent years (including years into the 30's and 40's) to fill their program.

So while it may be true that don't have to go down far some years, others are another story. But like I said, there are definitely those out there that rank them #1 no matter what because it's Harvard, and if they're good candidates that are wanted, then Harvard won't have to go far down. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a hater of Harvard (I'm honored to have a graduate degree from the institution), but the post above is of my honest "opinion" of their orthopaedics program.

Much along the same note, you're response could be classified as pure adore-ation and a perception that all things Harvard are #1 (with childish attacks on those that happen to voice their "opinions" otherwise).

Also... of those that I know who interviewed... matches at Columbia, NYU, UCSF, Minnesota, Rush, UPMC, and the list could go on... Harvard's program just isn't the end-all-be-all of orthopaedics programs and more should go into your ROL decision than the name.

Now this is a childish flame war that has been started around multiple people's opinions... it's time to act like grown-ups and just get back on the subject of the OP's questions surrounding opinions of the residency program from personal experience of working with them, interviewing, etc. (which I noticed amojan99 and LuckyMD2b have yet to post).

 

[LuckyMD2b]

adoration? -- I don't think so. I'm just keepin' it real bro.

As for the Harvard program:

Pluses: I really like a lot of the residents; really cool and intelligent people that you could hang out with outside of the hospital -- with all that free time you have during residency. Some folks really love Boston. Then you have the reputation and prestige of Man's Greatest Hospital; Best Women's Hospital; and Hahvahd

Minuses: I hear that they really work the PGY2s a lot more than many other programs. I don't think it is one of the more "cush" programs -- if there actually exist such a thing (if so please let me know where). A lot of fellows, so there's competition for good cases.

Honestly I feel like there are good surgeons come out of every program. Just like anything in life how well you do is based 95% on YOU.

I think folks are always asking: Is (insert any name here) what its cracked up to be? and it's kind of a stupid question. I agree that Harvard is not the end all and be all of orthopaedics; but did anyone really think that?

I hope not.
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Oh yeah and for the average Step I score; The residency director told me it was 528

that's right it's not a typo 528.

 

[mysophobe]

What's with the passive aggressive attitude? The OP wanted an opinion, and he gave it. Why are you taking his opinion personally?

 

[BUmmedic]

adoration? -- I don't think so. I'm just keepin' it real bro.

hater-ation? -- I don't think so. I'm just givin' my opinion... bro.

Now that's it... enough of this.

To the OP, I apologize that your thread has turned into this, but remember to always take opinions with a grain of salt. The true test is to see, listen, and experience for yourself. Good luck.

 

[dawg44]

All of the credentials in the world don't make a damn, if when you get out in the real world you can't cut.

 

[Pisces]

As you can imagine, certain residency programs are distinguished based on general as well as subspeciality. Anecdotal as the rest of these posts, my opinion from a well informed sample is Harvard might sneek into the top 15 programs. Mayo seems to be alone at the top.

 

[Nagar]

Why do you think that residency place matters so much, if eventually you do what you were taught during your fellowship ?
In other words- what is the difference between 2 ortho surgeons (assuming they have the same capabilities and motivation) who have done residency in two different hospitals (let us say even that one of them did it outside the US) and graduated from the same fellowship program ?

 

[BUmmedic]

Those two surgeons (let's say they are both fellowship-trained spine surgeons) happen to work at the same group practice in the same community with privileges at the same hospital (and both have contracts which require them to take general call). The exact same "general" case comes in at 2AM to the ED on two separate nights (say a displaced femoral neck fracture requiring DHS fixation... trying to make it somewhat complicated, but not too much), with one of the two surgeons on call each night. One trained at a "distinguished" name program with relatively little general orthopaedics experience during residency (due to lots of residents/fellows/attendings, subspecialty focus, name-protecting, etc etc.) compared to the other, who trained at a - for lack of a better term - non-name program, but was performing multiple DHS fixations starting his 2nd year of residency. If you were the patient, who would you want to fix your leg.

The short response is that, no matter where you complete your residency training and what fellowship you complete, you'll most likely end up taking general call and you want to be comfortable handling what's going to come into the ED in the middle of the night (not all places can Med-Flight a patient out), and the truth is that the great majority (some 95%) of physicians are in a private practice environment versus an academic setting.

 

[Nagar]

so what you mean is to generally stay away from the big gllamourous places and prefer a medium size hospitals (in the US and outside) ?

 

[BUmmedic]

Okay, so this is where things get a bit tricky... my best advice here, talk at length with your faculty/field-specific advisor. Let him know what your goals/interests are, and he/she should be able to steer you in the right direction. In general, if a residency program is accredited by the AAOS and GME, the training is more than adequate to expose you to all aspects deemed requisite for training in general orthopaedics. In essence, it doesn't matter where you train when it comes to the curriculum. However, that being said (and I know it sounds opposite of what I've said in the past), there is a lot more that goes into training than the curriculum. For example, case load per resident per subspecialty (joint, spine, sports, hand, general/trauma, pediatrics, oncology, etc.) can differ widely from program to program. For example, Ortho Onc is not included in many programs, but those are cases that are far and away from general ortho. The principles that a general orthopod will need to know when it comes to oncology will be covered (hence, it is part of the curriculum).

When it comes to big names versus non-names, community-based versus academic center, etc etc... it all depends on your personal preference and what you envision your future goals to be. If you care about having a name on your resume (and it can help, I'm not denying that), then apply to the big name places. But realize these big names may not have anything to do with their training (which, of course, is perceived differently from person to person). The Mayo Clinic - regarded by many to be #1 in ortho - has a ton of faculty (80+), but also a ton of fellows (60+) and 50/60 residents. Sure, there are cases a plenty, but you may be triple/quadruple scrubbed in a room with an attending, fellow, senior resident, then you (and maybe even a junior resident in front of you, too). I had a senior resident (who is going to Mayo for a joints fellowship) tell me that during his interview there, he realized that Mayo is a less than ideal place for residency (for the reasons mentioned above), but a great place for a fellowship. The case load is mostly joints (so unless you're going into residency knowing that you want to do joints) so your exposure may be skewed into certain areas.

Just realize that there's more than just the name... look at resident treatment/support, benefits, breadth of exposure (fellowship trained subspecialty faculty on staff), family-friendliness (if this matters to you... I have a wife and soon to be two children, so this was a very important factor), resident/faculty relationships (hierarchical or collegial), etc etc. When I was interviewing, I realized how many of the little things mattered to me, such as resident work rooms (Pit/ED rooms are great because the resident has a little retreat nearby with books, computer, etc. to get things done rather than fighting for space in the ED or needing to relocate a floor and come back later), didactic schedules (and resident involvement in teaching), MIS/Radiology/Order entry access from home (especially for programs that have home call... I had residents at one interview boast about home call starting second year, but when I asked if they could see x-rays at home to assess the situation before deciding whether to come in or not, they said they didn't have it... so essentially, they had to come in regardless), dress code (do you want to be walking around in a shirt/tie/suit or scrubs/white coat all day?), and benefits such as books/educational allowances/journal subscriptions.

When you meet faculty, do they treat you like a peasant who doesn't know anything, or do they exude a feeling of wanting to take the time to educate you? Speak to residents and ask how comfortable they are with general procedures and would they be able to finish residency and enter private practice right away. Does your program include some private practice experience, or is it all academic center-based? Look at past residents and look at the fellowship versus private practice ratios (are all of them doing fellowships or vice versa?). I had a faculty member (who graduated from a big name program mentioned in this thread) tell me that he had about a one-year, extremely steep learning curve when he came to his particular institution because he was required to take general call as a faculty member and he didn't feel he was well-prepared in his residency. Another told me that had he known he would end up at an academic, non-big name program, he would have chosen his residency differently to gain more case exposure and experience.

In the end, try to have a good idea of what you want out of your education, and what will make your five/six years ideal for your training experience. Talk with faculty advisors and department chairs/program directors. Everyone knows everyone, and they can give you the best advice. And finally, get a wide array of opinions, because some people will come off sounding like a walking advertisement no matter what you're asking, etc. (you'll know them when you meet them).

Good luck.

 

[BUmmedic]

I can't say this enough... www.orthogate.com... go to the forums and look for the "orthopaedic surgery residency" forum.

 

[LuckyMD2b]

Hey guys, I've been hearing some great things about Mayo for residency. But I just gotta know, Is it all it's cracked up to be?

 

[Bull's eye]

Those two surgeons (let's say they are both fellowship-trained spine surgeons) happen to work at the same group practice in the same community with privileges at the same hospital (and both have contracts which require them to take general call). The exact same "general" case comes in at 2AM to the ED on two separate nights (say a displaced femoral neck fracture requiring DHS fixation... trying to make it somewhat complicated, but not too much), with one of the two surgeons on call each night. One trained at a "distinguished" name program with relatively little general orthopaedics experience during residency (due to lots of residents/fellows/attendings, subspecialty focus, name-protecting, etc etc.) compared to the other, who trained at a - for lack of a better term - non-name program, but was performing multiple DHS fixations starting his 2nd year of residency. If you were the patient, who would you want to fix your leg.

The short response is that, no matter where you complete your residency training and what fellowship you complete, you'll most likely end up taking general call and you want to be comfortable handling what's going to come into the ED in the middle of the night (not all places can Med-Flight a patient out), and the truth is that the great majority (some 95%) of physicians are in a private practice environment versus an academic setting.

Hopefully said orthopedic surgeons from both named and unnamed hospital(s) would not be treating a displaced femoral neck fracture with a DHS......... Just giving you a hard time I know you just matched.

 

[BUmmedic]

he he... three months of ortho under my belt... thanks for the correction...

 

[Firebird]

adoration? -- I'm just keepin' it real bro.

Thank you Randy Jackson.

 

[LuckyMD2b]

Who's Randy Jackson?

 

[Firebird]

The judge on American Idol. Every time he says something bad about a performance he says, "Hey man, just keepin it real."

It was just a joke.