Harvard, So What!!!

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DocEasyCheesy

DocEasyCheesy

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What's really the big deal with Ivy league schools, Honestly. Do they really produce better doctors than someone who goes to (Ex: FSU or UM)
Do they just care about HIGH MCAT scores and GPA's. What makes them "Ivy League Material", or is it because most of these schools have been around for a very long time.
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I would go to Harvard Med over UCSF, Mayo, WashU, just because it has name brand appeal.

Unfortunately I am no where near getting into any of the above schools.
 
smarter doctors, relatively.Harvard is seriously made up of some of the amazing geniuses. Not to say they're not only prevalent there, but definitely much higher percentages than say, FSU
 
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I think maybe what you are asking is do Ivy league schools produce better doctors? They obviously get smart kids, based on MCAT, GPA, etc, etc. However, is that what makes a good doctor? I would be tempted to say no. It is a good system to get qualified people into the field, but I think there are undisputedly a number of other important factors in producing great doctors.
 
I say that there will be geniuses at every school and there will be *****s too. Even in undergrad it's true, so I expect it to be true for graduate programs and professional schools.

My anecdotal evidence: I never thought that Stanford was very special since I grew up so close to it, but now I can look at it and honestly say that the people I know there tend to be smarter than most people. Maybe they aren't book smart (though a lot are) but they think differently from the average person. They simply don't work through problems like the rest of us do and they're very unique individuals, typically. I assume these types of pre-meds are typical at Ivy Leagues as well.

I think that you can be bitter about the numbers game--I am too--but they were good enough to get the grades, unique enough to pass the interview, and gifted enough in some ECs to gain acceptance where many other magna cum laude applicants couldn't. Will that make them better doctors? Probably. Will it make them better clinicians? Probably not since that depends more upon their residency placement where they'll be interacting closer with other brilliant (or not so brilliant) clinicians.
 
You guys are forgetting that a huge part of being a good doctor comes from experience, learning from mistake, humanism, and listening skills. A lot of these skills may correlate with being a genius, but not necessarily. If you are a stuck up genius who doesn't know how to interact and read into his or hre patients, then I wouldn't think you are a good doctor. In fact, I read a statistic in a book that far many more mistakes in health care come from cognitive and interpersonal errors (like not asking the right questions, not paying attention, etc) than medical knowledge. In that case, I would chose a doctor who knows how to communicate and listen before one who doesn't but came from harvard. my opinion.
 
I know we all like to think we are going to be these incredible genius people as MD's. Let's all be honest, how much different of a person are you from when you entered college.

Will that make them better doctors? Probably. Will it make them better clinicians? Probably
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Because we like to see what we are becoming as superior and intelligent, of course it would make sense to say "smarter" people will be better doctors. Although logistically linear, really what you are saying is not so simple. Someone better at taking the MCAT or tests, then as a doctor will be better at interacting with patients, extracting necessary information, and then diagnosing and treating them. This is no longer clear argument.
 
I really don't give a hoot about Ivies to say the truth. I think you can find smart people at every school (well, almost every) and dumb people too. my brother goes to harvard and there is nothing special about him really...in fact i would say i'm smarter than him and he turns to me for help on most things. i actually never thought to apply to any ivies (barring harvard to appease the parents and even then my app was ridiculously late (verified a month after deadline) for med and thrown together in h.s.) b/c i don't really care for their locations and plus i personally feel that a lot of schools are on par with them and just don't have the age factor to abet in getting name recognition throughout the country and world. i got into WashU med and i honestly would have gone there over harvard if i felt more at home there. as long as i think its a good school, i will willingly go to a #17 undergrad over a #4 as i did and a #15 med school over a #4 because i feel that apart from the name and perhaps the test scores of the people matriculating with me, in my personal opinion, i found my schools to be better for me.
 
JRockdown said:
I know we all like to think we are going to be these incredible genius people as MD's. Let's all be honest, how much different of a person are you from when you entered college.



Because we like to see what we are becoming as superior and intelligent, of course it would make sense to say "smarter" people will be better doctors. Although logistically linear, really what you are saying is not so simple. Someone better at taking the MCAT or tests, then as a doctor will be better at interacting with patients, extracting necessary information, and then diagnosing and treating them. This is no longer clear argument.
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No, what I meant was that they will probably make a better doctor in terms of medical knowledge, keeping up to date with research, staying informed as academic doctors tend to do.

What you are saying about interacting with patients, diagnosing them and treating them fall in the realm of being a clinician and I agree with you. After all, I was saying that you CAN'T say an Ivy Leaguer will make a better clinician since I believe that has more to do with residency.
 
Where would you most like to be a patient?

As far as med school goes, the big names are great at producing researchers. If you have no interest in research and are set on private practice, the importance of your academic background becomes diminished. And as has been hammered to death on this board, you don't have to go to a top name school to become a great doctor.
 
I have a friend doing his residency in Philly and he says that the Harvard grads in his residency class don't know jack when it comes to clinical skills. He went to Penn for his MD, so I think most of that might come from professional jealousy? :laugh:

The big deal with Ivies is the prestige factor. Name brand recognition. Joe schmoe has heard of Harvard, but he has not heard of Rush. We live in a society obsessed with social climbing, is it really all that surprising that Harvard gets all the attention that it does?

I suscribe to the philosophy that if you are going to be successful in life (and in being a doctor), then you will be successful regardless of where you go to school. It's about the person, not the name on the diploma.
 
ecking said:
No, what I meant was that they will probably make a better doctor in terms of medical knowledge, keeping up to date with research, staying informed as academic doctors tend to do.

What you are saying about interacting with patients, diagnosing them and treating them fall in the realm of being a clinician and I agree with you. After all, I was saying that you CAN'T say an Ivy Leaguer will make a better clinician since I believe that has more to do with residency. More anecdotal evidence to show that I agree with you: my Stanford physicians have all been terrible with patients.
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Haha, my fault on the miss read. Yes, we agree with eachother and your first post was correct. My fast reading at work led me awry.
 
totally agree with ssquared, it is about the person, not where they went to school. you can suceed going anywhere. BUT the name on the diploma can open a lot of doors because you have already been "screened," Harvard thought you were good enough, so there must be something to you...a person from a random state school will have to work harder to be recognized than the kid from harvard...especially when you are trying to get into certain power circles...I am working right now and I feel like my undergrad institution has opened a lot of doors for me...I would have been able to achieve the same things without the name behind me, but it would have been just a little bit harder...people wouldn't be as quick to assume that I am smart.
 
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I was talking to one of the trustees from my undergrad who was a UMich MD, with a Harvard Residency and now is a researcher at Penn, and he described Harvard's med school this way: "they don't look for the best students. There are loads of "best" students out there applying. Harvard looks for the world class violin players, the former olympic gymnasts and the internationally known sculptors."

one of the doctors in my extended family is in a small practice with a grad of a certain Ivy League school in NY and calls bringing her into the practice a "major mistake." She's a very competent physician, has excellent manner with patients, but still has some serious professionalism issues, especially in that the rest of the staff flat out hate her and her condesending attitude toward everyone else in the building. It has gotten to the point where he's wanted to remove her from the practice. It's just one example, but medicine isn't law. Individual skill and experience trumps degree any day.

again to be fair, I doubt I'd even have a shot at such schools if I'd applied there. I actually didn't even expect to go to school in the northeast.
 
i think what makes ivy schools different from other schools is that they want someone more wellrounded
at least thats what the MD/MDPhD students at my school have been telling me when i ask them for advice, (since im applying this year)
like sure... every school wants students with good gpa and mcat scores, but i think the ones in ivy schools can really pull off their gpa and scores while doing all those other crap (whether it's artsy or not)
 
Remember in Good Will Hunting, when M Damon totally shuts out the Harvard history guy when theyre in the bar hitting on the pre-med girl, and he says something to the effect that "you could have learned all that knowledge at your local library and saved a couple hundred thousand dollars?"

I think there is some truth to that. The USMLE and all those other exams ensure that all the docs trained in america are kept to the same standard. if i saw two docs in a hosp, i dont think i could tell which one went to harvard or which went to X State Univ.

nevertheless, if the avg lay person hears that someone went to HMS, you know that the first thing theyll think is how good/smart he "must be."

Also, most (but not all) of the cutting edge research has historically been in the power house med schools. And many (but not all) of the global leaders in public health attended hopkins, or harvard, etc. Do they reach these high positions because of what was on their diploma, or are they simply that good? IDK, but I think thats something youve got to consider if you want to become a "leader in medicine." If you just want to be a clinician, Id say go the cheapest route. Every med school will produce derms, orth surg, etc. Maybe not in the same numbers as the ivy leagues, but its still possible....just like people go from state univ to ivy league med school each year. Education wise, I dont think you can go wrong with any american med school.
 
DocEasyCheesy said:
What's really the big deal with Ivy league schools, Honestly. Do they really produce better doctors than someone who goes to (Ex: FSU or UM)
Do they just care about HIGH MCAT scores and GPA's. What makes them "Ivy League Material", or is it because most of these schools have been around for a very long time.
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Benefits of graduating from a big name place:
1) Connections; being a part of the old boys' club
2) Looks good on paper. A degree from Harvard means that somewhere along the way someone thought you were hots#it and chose you over thousands of others.

Nonetheless, the experience is gonna be similar at whatever med school you go to.

Once you're in medicine, you only care about the opinions of the people in your specialty. And no, Harvard does not have a monopoly on the giants of medicine.
 
Some of the research-heavy schools like the Ivies and UC's enable you to be taught by world-class faculty and exposed to cutting edge research. This doesn't necessarily train better doctors per se. In the end, the best doctors are those who work incredibly hard and are driven to be great.
 
cgscribe said:
Some of the research-heavy schools like the Ivies and UC's enable you to be taught by world-class faculty and exposed to cutting edge research. This doesn't necessarily train better doctors per se. In the end, the best doctors are those who work incredibly hard and are driven to be great.
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I agree with this. It's not at all that top med schools produce better or more personable doctors, but I think there is something to be said about having some of the prominent experts in a given field at the school or university hospital. And those experts draw in patients from all over the country with some really rare diagnoses. I think in this way, top schools can offer a somewhat more unique or varied experience. But it's not an "ivy league" school thing...that overall prestige is more for college than for med school.
 
btw, just because I know it will come up once in this thread:

ivy league= Harvard, Yale, Penn, Columbia, Dartmouth, Brown, Cornell, and Princeton Plainsboro...
 
maestro1625 said:
btw, just because I know it will come up once in this thread:

ivy league= Harvard, Yale, Penn, Columbia, Dartmouth, Brown, Cornell, and Princeton Plainsboro...
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Are you KIDDING ME?!!?!?!?! Leaving out MIT Med?!?! And Standorf!??!?!
 
omegaxx said:
MIT med? I believe you are referring to Harvard HST🙄
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Actually, I believe I was joking.

You'll also notice the selective spelling of Stanford, which is clearly not in the Ivy L. either.
 
GuitarHero1 said:
In that case, I would chose a doctor who knows how to communicate and listen before one who doesn't but came from harvard. my opinion.
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There seems to be a stereotype of Harvard/Hopkins/etc. students as "book smart" introverts (for the record I'm still an undergrad at a State U). I really don't understand why people assume this...one CAN be a frickin' genius AND have great interpersonal skills. Just because someone doesn't meet the EXtrovert doctor mold does not mean he/she can't communicate or listen. The people I know at top 10 institutions affirm this fact. Bad communication is a problem that a portion of graduates from all med schools experience, struggle with, and (hopefully) overcome.
 
I got into a high ranked undergrad and didn't give much thought to the whole ranking thing once I was in - though I have to say that I looked closely at the average stats when I applied, because I wanted to be surrounded by people who challenged me. Then I took one class at another school, ranked much lower, and realized that yes, those differences do exist. I went from being very average at my home school to some sort of class god in a week, it was actually quite a disturbing experience. I honestly never thought there'd be such a disparity. So, based on my personal experience with this, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that yes, I think the caliber of people in Harvard med can be quite different. And I can say it considering I'll never get into Harvard med, and that's fine with me - I've met many people smarter than me in college, and it doesn't particularly bother me that I'm not the best-read, most eloquent, and smartest of them all. Being at the top is lonely, as they say. I like being able to learn not just from my prof, but also from my peers.

Also, highly selective institutions look not just for academic powerhouses when it comes to applicants. My school had a very diverse undergrad population, from the kids of investment bankers who went to private high school, to kids who grew up in the trailer park, and we all learned from each other in the classroom.
 
Regardless of if the schools are better by themselves, the top schools get better students, which means they will produce (on average) better doctors.
 
RogueNine said:
Regardless of if the schools are better by themselves, the top schools get better students, which means they will produce (on average) better doctors.
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That's if you're assuming that a high MCAT/high GPA individual is what accounts for a good doctor. I'd say there are many other factors to consider.
 
jlamacc1 said:
There seems to be a stereotype of Harvard/Hopkins/etc. students as "book smart" introverts (for the record I'm still an undergrad at a State U). I really don't understand why people assume this...one CAN be a frickin' genius AND have great interpersonal skills. Just because someone doesn't meet the EXtrovert doctor mold does not mean he/she can't communicate or listen. The people I know at top 10 institutions affirm this fact. Bad communication is a problem that a portion of graduates from all med schools experience, struggle with, and (hopefully) overcome.
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I never said that all people in Harvard are bad communicators. I just said I'd take a doctor who is good at interpersonal skills from a lower tier school before I'd take a doctor who is arrogant and bad at communication from Harvard. There are doctors from Harvard that are great communicators and are also geniuses, and there are doctors from lower tier that are bad communicators and dumb. But I wouldn't judge the doctor by where he went to med school.
 
GuitarHero1 said:
That's if you're assuming that a high MCAT/high GPA individual is what accounts for a good doctor. I'd say there are many other factors to consider.
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I don't think you need to assume that at all. If a school has a good reputation the way Harvard does, then it has the ability to handpick the "best" students: *not* just the students with the best numbers, but the students with the best credentials overall. That means the students with high MCAT, high GPA, great extracurriculars, good character, high motivation, excellent communication skills, etc. If a student with such characteristics gets into both HMS and a school of much lesser reputation, he/she is quite likely to choose HMS, which is why HMS ends up being populated by some all-around cool people.

I mean, there are plenty of applicants with great numbers who get rejected by Harvard and its ilk. Harvard gets so many great applications that they are able to do a pretty good job of weeding out people who have great numbers but not much else. It is fallacious, therefore, to equate "top schools" with "numbers schools."
 
I've never questioned or wanted to know what medical school my family doctor went. I believe that nearly everyone agrees that an individual can become an excellent physician regardless of which medical school he/she went. I guess it also depends on how you define an excellent physician. For myself, the definition of an excellent physician is someone who cares about his/her patients and is happy. The prestige of a school predicts nothing about these.
 
Don't they just want to pump out researchers at 160+ per year?
 
Keep in mind that you need more than just a great MCAT/GPA to get into some of the top tiers. There comes a point where the distinguishing trait might something ridiculous e.g. those having saved African babies and those that have not.
 
smeagol said:
Keep in mind that you need more than just a great MCAT/GPA to get into some of the top tiers. There comes a point where the distinguishing trait might something ridiculous e.g. those having saved African babies and those that have not.
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Lol, I've been to Africa and te saving babies line is BS. Now if you were to say "educate them about AIDS", then go right ahead. That'll be accurate for the next few years.
 
A joke 😀 I meant for the African baby cliché to come off as a joke.
 
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