Harvard vs Duke vs Yale vs Mayo AZ/UCLA/WashU (all full tuition)

[deleted1065184]

Many people would give a kidney to go to Harvard.

I think this is the one school on the list that COULD be worth paying more, at least if they had any entrepreneurial aspirations.

Then again, the most popular doc online nowadays is a DO family med x]

Ya know, people say that a lot wrt non-medical careers, but it has always kinda bothered me because it's impossible to prove or disprove. It just makes sense to people that since it's Harvard, it has to give some sort of additional advantage. And I just struggle to believe that.

But even more so, it overestimates the amount of people who go into medicine and choose to do something other than medicine. The vast majority of medical students will go on to become residents, who will then go on to become attendings in an academic, community, or private practice setting. Then a small subset will choose to pursue non-medical endeavors. Is that small likelihood worth taking on much more debt to choose Harvard, esp when we don't even know if it actually helps?

I personally don't think so, but you're right that a lot of folks would sell a kidney to get into Harvard, so I'm sure any bit of justification is helpful in that case lol

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[EndureVascular]

Ya know, people say that a lot wrt non-medical careers, but it has always kinda bothered me because it's impossible to prove or disprove. It just makes sense to people that since it's Harvard, it has to give some sort of additional advantage. And I just struggle to believe that.

But even more so, it overestimates the amount of people who go into medicine and choose to do something other than medicine. The vast majority of medical students will go on to become residents, who will then go on to become attendings in an academic, community, or private practice setting. Then a small subset will choose to pursue non-medical endeavors. Is that small likelihood worth taking on much more debt to choose Harvard, esp when we don't even know if it actually helps?

I personally don't think so, but you're right that a lot of folks would sell a kidney to get into Harvard, so I'm sure any bit of justification is helpful in that case lol

It 100% does give an advantage. It is just a name that every single person in the country, medical or not, can sink their teeth into. It is synonymous with elite education in literally any field- business, law, medicine, engineering etc.
It is impressive to patients, its impressive to the non medical MBA holders who will be all of our bosses. Sure Perelman, NYU, Hopkins etc are equally as hard to get into, but their names lack that same punch without a doubt.
That punch will make it easier to be accepted into first choice residency, fellowship of preference, hired at your top pick of private practice/academic medical center. There are a lot of lay people who will touch your career over the decades and the Harvard name impresses them all in way no other school would.
And that is not even considering the alumni network that Harvard offers, which pales any other school in comparison. That network to the elites in medicine (and outside of medicine) is arguably the biggest reason to choose HMS.

I get that for some people there are better options out there (aka full rides at other schools) but I don't understand how someone could actually say "we don't even know if it actually helps".

 

[deleted1065184]

It 100% does give an advantage. It is just a name that every single person in the country, medical or not, can sink their teeth into. It is synonymous with elite education in literally any field- business, law, medicine, engineering etc.
It is impressive to patients, its impressive to the non medical MBA holders who will be all of our bosses. Sure Perelman, NYU, Hopkins etc are equally as hard to get into, but their names lack that same punch without a doubt.
That punch will make it easier to be accepted into first choice residency, fellowship of preference, hired at your top pick of private practice/academic medical center. There are a lot of lay people who will touch your career over the decades and the Harvard name impresses them all in way no other school would.
And that is not even considering the alumni network that Harvard offers, which pales any other school in comparison. That network to the elites in medicine (and outside of medicine) is arguably the biggest reason to choose HMS.

I get that for some people there are better options out there (aka full rides at other schools) but I don't understand how someone could actually say "we don't even know if it actually helps".

Not gonna debate this because I'm not that invested..will just reiterate what I said at the beginning of my last comment. Impossible to prove or disprove.

 

[deleted1161481]

had to make an account for this lool

not sure you answered what @I'mInDer! was mentioning, which is what are the actual verifiable benefits in medicine that going to Harvard over other top tier schools would provide? can you prove that going to Harvard med is the only one that packs a punch? only one that lets you get first choice residency, fellowship, job, etc.? I dont think anyone can prove that, because it is not true

a look at any top residency program (regardless of speciality), will show that people match anywhere from anywhere, with ofc a bias for the T20s but its not like Harvard is the only program with their kids getting all the top picks.

im not even sure the same (Harvard being the giga chad you claim) can be said for other fields like law (eg Yale) or engineering (eg MIT)

what @EndureVascular is talking about is LAYMAN prestige. it's powerful to tell people you go to Harvard, I get it. but it doesn't correlate to real life outcomes, its just ego

 

[ElTacoGrande]

You don't deserve to get into WashU.
Not only is it grimy as hell to be telling everyone to choose another school since you're on the waitlist, its extremely low IQ to go about it in such a blatant and obvious manner haha

And I even said in my post above Harvard/UCLA seemed like the top two choices to me (and I'm on none of these waitlists), so I have no dog in this fight

Chuckle, No just my completely honest opinion, spent a good portion of my life in the cambridge educational ecosystem with friends at hms/ teaching there there and have seen the opportunites that arise there compared to other places I've observed. I shouldv'e added the caveat of if you're the slightly ambitious/outgoing type to avail yourself of the opportunities at hms/their hospitals/whitehead etc. and/or want to do Academics and get the loans PSLF dismissed. Also I firmly believe people here put too much stock in the loans/scholarship amounts and that if you're considering schools like this the extra $250k+interest won't be meaningful to you in 20 years when you look back whereas having attending hms will be. Didn't realize it would raise such a kerfluffle. I could see doing UCLA for weather/family though, Boston winters wear you down.

full disclosure: whereever premedasaurus goes it frees up spots on one or more WL here. (WashU being the lowest odds one I believe)

 

[deleted1158770]

had to make an account for this lool

not sure you answered what @I'mInDer! was mentioning, which is what are the actual verifiable benefits in medicine that going to Harvard over other top tier schools would provide? can you prove that going to Harvard med is the only one that packs a punch? only one that lets you get first choice residency, fellowship, job, etc.? I dont think anyone can prove that, because it is not true

a look at any top residency program (regardless of speciality), will show that people match anywhere from anywhere, with ofc a bias for the T20s but its not like Harvard is the only program with their kids getting all the top picks.

im not even sure the same (Harvard being the giga chad you claim) can be said for other fields like law (eg Yale) or engineering (eg MIT)

what @EndureVascular is talking about is LAYMAN prestige. it's powerful to tell people you go to Harvard, I get it. but it doesn't correlate to real life outcomes, its just ego

It is prestige for layman and for medicine and all other fields. I agree with the point that it is difficult to show just how much weight a degree from Harvard carries, but I strongly disagree with the point about it being “just ego” and not affecting real life. N=1 but The people that I have known that went to Harvard for undergrad, med, or law school have been able to secure top notch opportunities unlike the majority of other people that I have seen. That’s not to say that it isn’t possible to achieve the same level of success at other top schools, but the reputation of Harvard definitely does help quite a bit. There are so many avenues within medicine as well and those extra connections could prove to be significant in the long run and worth the investment.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

It 100% does give an advantage. It is just a name that every single person in the country, medical or not, can sink their teeth into. It is synonymous with elite education in literally any field- business, law, medicine, engineering etc.
It is impressive to patients, its impressive to the non medical MBA holders who will be all of our bosses. Sure Perelman, NYU, Hopkins etc are equally as hard to get into, but their names lack that same punch without a doubt.
That punch will make it easier to be accepted into first choice residency, fellowship of preference, hired at your top pick of private practice/academic medical center. There are a lot of lay people who will touch your career over the decades and the Harvard name impresses them all in way no other school would.
And that is not even considering the alumni network that Harvard offers, which pales any other school in comparison. That network to the elites in medicine (and outside of medicine) is arguably the biggest reason to choose HMS.

I get that for some people there are better options out there (aka full rides at other schools) but I don't understand how someone could actually say "we don't even know if it actually helps".

Again, unless you are planning to go beyond just practicing medicine in non-academic setting, Harvard tag won’t help much. May be helps with securing first job.

 

[deleted1065184]

It is prestige for layman and for medicine and all other fields. I agree with the point that it is difficult to show just how much weight a degree from Harvard carries, but I strongly disagree with the point about it being “just ego” and not affecting real life. N=1 but The people that I have known that went to Harvard for undergrad, med, or law school have been able to secure top notch opportunities unlike the majority of other people that I have seen. That’s not to say that it isn’t possible to achieve the same level of success at other top schools, but the reputation of Harvard definitely does help quite a bit. There are so many avenues within medicine as well and those extra connections could prove to be significant in the long run and worth the investment.

To add a counter to this, and emphasize why it's kinda pointless to debate...there was a recent Harvard MD/PhD grad who did not match anywhere despite having a good publication record and doing well academically. There's more nuance to it, but the fact remains that he applied, interviewed, and tried to match but did not. I also have friends who went to Harvard and aren't doing much with their lives.

Another big debate that cannot and will not ever be solved is if the cause for a relative increase in success among Harvard grads is the Harvard name or the fact that you *usually* have to already be exceptional to get into Harvard in the first place. Exceptional people tend to go on to continue doing exceptional things.

I got into multiple Ivy League and non-Ivy elite institutions for undergrad, but chose to attend a public state school on full ride. I just had no desire to be at an Ivy, and having a full ride + proximity to family meant much more to me than name...even as a teenager. When I applied to med school, I got into multiple Ivies and numerous other "T10" and "T20" medical schools. Going to an Ivy League medical school would not have made any difference in my success. But if I had gone to an Ivy, I would most likely attribute my success, at least in part, to attending an Ivy.

Look, y'all go wherever you want for school. People value different things. I do not believe that going to Harvard will open any more doors inside or outside of medicine than any of its peer institutions, and there's no data to support that it will...but that won't stop plenty of people from believing that it will. And that's fine.

 

[premedasaurus]

Thank you all for your comments and help through this process. I have been quiet on my own thread because I wanted to walk into my second looks with an open mind. After visiting all these schools, I can say that I liked HMS and UCLA the most, followed by WashU and Yale, and liked Duke the least (surprisingly). I also have been updated with an offer of 50% tuition at Duke (although I have not tried negotiating for more).

I again come back to how hard it will be for me to click that withdraw button at HMS. I realize that much of what HMS offers are intangible benefits -- hence why this thread is so split. I still do not have a clear vision for my life, but I am interested in potentially branching out to other things besides strictly clinical medicine. Research, public speaking, serving on advisory boards for the NIH/CDC/etc, medical journalism or becoming an author, medical leadership (becoming a department chair, dean, etc). I don't know 100% what I want to do because honestly, a year ago, even getting accepted to one medical school, let alone a top 20, seemed like a dream. At HMS's second look, the alumni network is what really stood out to me.

However, I am also a woman and want a family someday. While I am okay with being more of a secondary parent compared to my partner, I do unfortunately have to deal with the biological realities of my sex.

So I am still very much conflicted.

 

[deleted1065184]

Thank you all for your comments and help through this process. I have been quiet on my own thread because I wanted to walk into my second looks with an open mind. After visiting all these schools, I can say that I liked HMS and UCLA the most, followed by WashU and Yale, and liked Duke the least (surprisingly). I also have been updated with an offer of 50% tuition at Duke (although I have not tried negotiating for more).

I again come back to how hard it will be for me to click that withdraw button at HMS. I realize that much of what HMS offers are intangible benefits -- hence why this thread is so split. I still do not have a clear vision for my life, but I am interested in potentially branching out to other things besides strictly clinical medicine. Research, public speaking, serving on advisory boards for the NIH/CDC/etc, medical journalism or becoming an author, medical leadership (becoming a department chair, dean, etc). I don't know 100% what I want to do because honestly, a year ago, even getting accepted to one medical school, let alone a top 20, seemed like a dream. At HMS's second look, the alumni network is what really stood out to me.

However, I am also a woman and want a family someday. While I am okay with being more of a secondary parent compared to my partner, I do unfortunately have to deal with the biological realities of my sex.

So I am still very much conflicted.

I'm glad that you've been able to see differing viewpoints. Best of luck go you with whatever you decide. I'm confident that you will do well and succeed wherever you go! 😊

 

[deleted1161395]

Good luck with your decision! Now that you mention your aspirations beyond clinical medicine I think that HMS fits perfectly with that and will set you up the best b/c of its elite connections/alumni network. I second that you will succeed at any of the schools however!

 

[reinforced]

Thank you all for your comments and help through this process. I have been quiet on my own thread because I wanted to walk into my second looks with an open mind. After visiting all these schools, I can say that I liked HMS and UCLA the most, followed by WashU and Yale, and liked Duke the least (surprisingly). I also have been updated with an offer of 50% tuition at Duke (although I have not tried negotiating for more).

I again come back to how hard it will be for me to click that withdraw button at HMS. I realize that much of what HMS offers are intangible benefits -- hence why this thread is so split. I still do not have a clear vision for my life, but I am interested in potentially branching out to other things besides strictly clinical medicine. Research, public speaking, serving on advisory boards for the NIH/CDC/etc, medical journalism or becoming an author, medical leadership (becoming a department chair, dean, etc). I don't know 100% what I want to do because honestly, a year ago, even getting accepted to one medical school, let alone a top 20, seemed like a dream. At HMS's second look, the alumni network is what really stood out to me.

However, I am also a woman and want a family someday. While I am okay with being more of a secondary parent compared to my partner, I do unfortunately have to deal with the biological realities of my sex.

So I am still very much conflicted.

Hi! 120,000% disclosure; I am on the waitlist at both WashU and Mayo, lol, but I intend to be objective.

Your decision really seems to hinge on what you want your career to look like. If, as you said, you want to do things outside/beyond medicine, I could see a world where leveraging Harvard’s intangibles opens doors, especially with non-medical people. My GF is in law school, and she always talks about the fact that the Warren court in the 60s-70s was the last time a Supreme Court justice from a public school was on the bench. And I know it’s not one-to-one, but I think that fact applies to becoming an author, to science leadership, or being a science communicator. To people outside of medicine, prestige does matter. It basically does the talking for you. Lay people won’t need your entire CV to know what you’re about, to them, Harvard is your CV. Heuristics are weird like that, I guess.

If your goals are within medicine, like medical science or clinical care, then I don’t see the reason to spend half a milli at Harvard when Washu, mayo, Duke, and UCLA are all world class hospitals and medical schools. If your goal is to be the best you can at your “craft”, then I think those are great choices, and considering cost, probably better ones.

It’s seems like you do genuinely want to pull the trigger on HMS, but feel it’s financially
irresponsible. If that’s the case, maybe reframe it as a bet on yourself? That if you go to HMS you’ll try your hardest to extract 400k of value out the relationships and connections you can make.

Regardless of where you end up, be proud! You mf did it, you made it to the majors or got drafted to the NFL. You made it to the top! And more importantly, you’re going to help countless people no matter the path you choose.

 

[deleted1158770]

Hi! 120,000% disclosure, I am on the waitlist at both WashU and Mayo lol, but I intend to be objective.

Your decision really seems to hinge on what you want your career to look like. If, as you said, you want to do things outside/beyond medicine, then I could see a world in which leveraging Harvard’s intangibles opens doors, especially with non-medical people. My GF is in law school and a fact she always talks about is that the warren court in the 60s-70s was the last time a justice from a public school was on the bench. And I know it’s not one to one, but I would think that fact is applicable to becoming an author, to science leadership, or being a science communication. To people outside of medicine, prestige does matter. It basically does the talking for you. Lay people won’t need your entire CV to what you’re about, to them, Harvard is your CV. Heuristics are weird like that, I guess.

If your goals are within medicine, like medical science or clinical care then I don’t see the reason to spend half a milli at Harvard when Washu, mayo, Duke, and UCLA are all world class hospitals and medical schools. If your goal is to be the best you can at your “craft”, then I think those are great choices, and considering cost, probably better ones.

It’s seems like you do genuinely want to pull the trigger on HMS, but feel it’s financially
irresponsible. If that’s the case, maybe reframe it as a bet on yourself? That if you go to HMS you’ll try your hardest to extract 400k of value out the relationships and connections you can make.

Regardless of where you end up, be proud! You mf did it, you made it to the majors or got drafted to the NFL. You made it to the top! And more importantly, you’re going to help countless people no matter the path you choose.

Agree with this analysis. Harvard could really help you, especially in the realm beyond medicine, so I think that it could definitely be worth it. Plus, compared to the other schools it’s not the full 400 and instead roughly 200-250 k more (and there’s the loan forgiveness that was previously mentioned).

 

[lmarq7973]

Likely going to a UC this fall, so I'm a little biased. But, I have to say that being at UC does grant a lot of benefits. UCLA may not be as much of a complete powerhouse as HMS, Yale, WashU and so on, but it isn't a pushover. I went to UCLA for my undergrad and I think it has a lot of good people both in the student and faculty side of the school. I made some of my greatest friends there. Also LA traffic does suck, I will admit. But at UCLA would you be doing your rotations at Reagan and Harbor? The 405 sucks but it's possible to shave a decent chunk of time off your schedule by taking city streets. Also, consider that Cedars Sinai, where I did my undergrad research, has plenty of med students doing research there and is quite the place to build connections at. I am fairly certain I would have not gotten where I did if I hadn't gotten so close to Cedars Sinai faculty.

It's your choice to make. If you want to match in CA, UCLA will never hold you back. The Reagan medical center can stand with the best and the UCLA Health system is well respected and sprawls throughout SoCal. I worked with some UCLA DGSOM faculty in my undergrad years and they came from the best backgrounds (Harvard, UCSF, etc). You won't be held back by a degree there. None of these schools will prevent you from going anywhere. But if you are looking to have a career in CA UCLA can help you network from early on. If you can make it to these places you'll be in good company no matter where you go.

 

[Max2022]

UCLA not much price difference at all
Huge Plus of nice weather

 

[hopefulmd2022]

Thank you all for your comments and help through this process. I have been quiet on my own thread because I wanted to walk into my second looks with an open mind. After visiting all these schools, I can say that I liked HMS and UCLA the most, followed by WashU and Yale, and liked Duke the least (surprisingly). I also have been updated with an offer of 50% tuition at Duke (although I have not tried negotiating for more).

I again come back to how hard it will be for me to click that withdraw button at HMS. I realize that much of what HMS offers are intangible benefits -- hence why this thread is so split. I still do not have a clear vision for my life, but I am interested in potentially branching out to other things besides strictly clinical medicine. Research, public speaking, serving on advisory boards for the NIH/CDC/etc, medical journalism or becoming an author, medical leadership (becoming a department chair, dean, etc). I don't know 100% what I want to do because honestly, a year ago, even getting accepted to one medical school, let alone a top 20, seemed like a dream. At HMS's second look, the alumni network is what really stood out to me.

However, I am also a woman and want a family someday. While I am okay with being more of a secondary parent compared to my partner, I do unfortunately have to deal with the biological realities of my sex.

So I am still very much conflicted.

Which school did you end up picking?