Harvard vs. NYU

[roundgarlic]

Hi!! Thought I knew what I wanted but now feeling really really conflicted and not sure what the right choice in this situation is. For context I'm pretty set on OB/GYN, have lived in TX my whole life, and want to work in academic medicine with focus on public health and policy in the future.

Harvard:
Pros:

• P/F for pre-clinical and clerkships, graded for post-clerkships (sub-Is, electives, etc)
  • Controversy about this though?? With some schools going back and some students liking ability to distinguish with grades
• Already connected with a physician there who seemed to be open to being a mentor, really strong faculty in my area of interest
• Harvard name / prestige factor - this would follow me and give a boost for my entire career
• Lived in Boston before and loved it, know I would be happy in the city, one of my good friends is going to Harvard Law next year
• Loved the current students that I met and appreciated sense of advocacy, justice, diversity at second look
• 95% of students match at their first choice according to their career advising

Cons:

• 280k more expensive - is it worth it for the Harvard name? Some people have told me yes, some people have told me no. I did try to get more aid here by leveraging offers and they did not bite. I wouldn't have to take loans but still important for me to consider if it's necessary for my family to finance that and if the money could be better used elsewhere
• Less flexibility with class attendance - I don’t mind going to class but some give might be nice since SO/family are in TX
• Admin seems less approachable, more of a “come here if you want but we don’t care” vibe
• COL might be higher moving into an apartment after M1
• Vanderbilt Hall - not horrible but not ideal
• None of their clinical sites are safety-net hospital/FQHC (unless you opt in to CHA, which I wouldn’t want to do)
• They don’t match you for research post-M1, more self-directed project setting up than NYU

NYU:
Pros:

• More flexible class attendance
• Built in research year - I think I would want to take this regardless as I'm going straight through from undergrad and the idea of a slight break seems nice
• Dean Rivera is very approachable and involved, overall school admin seems very hands on and supportive of students
• Clinical sites include safety net hospital, patient population I am very drawn to
• Shadowing is extremely accessible first year, would be a nice way to make connections
• Strong emphasis on QI and patient safety, which I loved hearing about
• New York!! I really enjoyed the city, have a few friends here, could be fun to be here while I’m young and experience city life
• On same note, student culture seems fun (events after every single exam)

Cons:

• Graded clinicals - they did say 75% of people get honors but I don’t know how much that is to be believed
• AOA
• 1 year pre-clinical seems fast for some people (?)
• Heard bad things about OB/GYN department culture from current student here - but she said she reported to admin and they worked on it
• Also talked to M4 who said she didn’t match where she wanted to because OB was super competitive this year and that spooked me, but n=1
• Less of a prestige factor
• Seemed to me like less student diversity at second look but that is maybe hard to tell
• No free clinic for M1s to get involved with

My main concerns about picking NYU over Harvard is that the 1 year preclinical seems really fast, I'm worried that I would have extreme regret about my decision if things don't work out with the match especially knowing how strong Harvard is, and if being at NYU will close doors that Harvard may have opened. I'm also worried about recency bias since I'm on the way home from NYU's second look right now and Harvard was two weeks ago and I remember being really excited and happy while I was there. It's also just a little heartbreaking to come from state school and feel uncertain the whole application cycle about how my undergrad may hold me back, and then get into Harvard, but turn it down - but ultimately that's a personal and emotional thing that I probably need to get over. Thank you all in advance for help and advice

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[Egg-Benedict]

I chose Harvard over another top school, with a similar cost difference, and I massively regret it. The layman's prestige reeled me in at the time, but now, having graduated and having several friends other schools like NYU, WashU, etc., I can tell you that Harvard really isn't going to open any doors that those schools won't.

As to your points:

• P/F for pre-clinical and clerkships, graded for post-clerkships (sub-Is, electives, etc)
  • Controversy about this though?? With some schools going back and some students liking ability to distinguish with grades

In talking to my friends at NYU, Penn, UMich, etc., pretty much all of them have reported that they like the opportunity to distinguish themselves and didn't seem to think the grading introduced all that much stress. So, it seems like everyone likes what they have.

Another thing to consider is that, with P/F, residencies are going to place more weight on your research, LOR, etc. That could be good or bad, depending on your strengths and how good you are at making connections.

Also, I know one of the deans of a top med school, and I recently spoke with them about the graded clinicals. They said that residency directors pretty universally are wanting grades, and that a lot of other top schools are going to change back to graded in the next two years. That surprised me, but I suppose it makes sense.

So, when I was applying, I thought P/F was a huge plus, but knowing what I know now, I would say I'm pretty neutral on it and I definitely wouldn't pay more for it.

• 280k more expensive - is it worth it for the Harvard name?

If we were comparing Harvard and Kentucky, maybe there would be a debate to be had (no offense to Kentucky), but we're talking about NYU here. I know it's hard to recognize as a pre-med, but I promise you that in the future you will laugh at yourself for even considering this question.

• Less flexibility with class attendance - I don’t mind going to class but some give might be nice since SO/family are in TX

I will say that the in-person class requirement did suck. That wasn't even on my radar when I was considering schools. At first, it was kind of nice to see my classmates all the time, but pretty soon it just became really annoying having to be in person so often.

• Admin seems less approachable, more of a “come here if you want but we don’t care” vibe
• They don’t match you for research post-M1, more self-directed project setting up than NYU

Yes, it definitely felt like there was very little support from the administration, so we were essentially expected to be pretty independent.

• Vanderbilt Hall - not horrible but not ideal

You actually don't have to live there at all. The only thing is that if you live elsewhere, it may be a little harder socially since most of the M1 class is there.

My main concerns about picking NYU over Harvard is that the 1 year preclinical seems really fast

I don't know about NYU's in particular, but what I have always heard about the 1-year preclinicals is that it's not two years squished into one. They've removed some redundancy and kept only the most important things

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

In talking to my friends at NYU, Penn, UMich, etc., pretty much all of them have reported that they like the opportunity to distinguish themselves and didn't seem to think the grading introduced all that much stress. So, it seems like everyone likes what they have.

I guess the grass is always greener, but I think it's important to put this into context. Firstly, I imagine there is a selection bias in that your friends probably did well in clinical grading, so of course they're going to advocate for it. Relatedly, there is definitely a personality type in med school that enjoys competition and being on top. Also relatedly, there is a personality type that does not mind playing the game, including sucking up to attendings and residents for good evals. Personally, I feel like this gets in the way of actual learning.

Whether you decide that p/f at Harvard is worth the premium is up to you. Personally, between the two, I'd go with NYU as well for 280k. However, I do think there is a premium. You look at the match list and the conservative observation is that Harvard is no worse at matching--to any school, period. I bet if you surveyed the students at Harvard and whether they liked their p/f grading, you'll find a larger percentage like it more than if you asked another school if they liked their graded clinical year. Egg-Benedict's perspective is important to note that p/f grading does not benefit everyone--e.g. if you have more limited options in standing out in your EC's. But I think this is the minotirty. Their point that there are other people at other schools who enjoy the graded clerkship is also true--but I suspect this is not the majority (unless the majority get good grades).

Essentially, there are people who are gonna have trouble standing out at Harvard in their ECs for sure. But there's no way of knowing if they would stand out in clinical year if it were graded, either.

I'm surprised that schools are considering switching back to a graded system, and will be curious to see what these "criterion" or "competency" grading are. If there's a way to remove the B/S from it, then I'm all for it.

 

[MercifulCamper]

I guess the grass is always greener, but I think it's important to put this into context. Firstly, I imagine there is a selection bias in that your friends probably did well in clinical grading, so of course they're going to advocate for it. Relatedly, there is definitely a personality type in med school that enjoys competition and being on top. Also relatedly, there is a personality type that does not mind playing the game, including sucking up to attendings and residents for good evals. Personally, I feel like this gets in the way of actual learning.

Whether you decide that p/f at Harvard is worth the premium is up to you. Personally, between the two, I'd go with NYU as well for 280k. However, I do think there is a premium. You look at the match list and the conservative observation is that Harvard is no worse at matching--to any school, period. I bet if you surveyed the students at Harvard and whether they liked their p/f grading, you'll find a larger percentage like it more than if you asked another school if they liked their graded clinical year. Egg-Benedict's perspective is important to note that p/f grading does not benefit everyone--e.g. if you have more limited options in standing out in your EC's. But I think this is the minotirty. Their point that there are other people at other schools who enjoy the graded clerkship is also true--but I suspect this is not the majority (unless the majority get good grades).

Essentially, there are people who are gonna have trouble standing out at Harvard in their ECs for sure. But there's no way of knowing if they would stand out in clinical year if it were graded, either.

I'm surprised that schools are considering switching back to a graded system, and will be curious to see what these "criterion" or "competency" grading are. If there's a way to remove the B/S from it, then I'm all for it.

I agree. I don’t really have much to add to this conversation. 280 K is steep + the opportunity cost of not graduating earlier by attending Harvard makes it an even more expensive decision. I personally don’t think P/F alone is worth that cost. I would go with NYU in your situation.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Honestly if you're absolutely set on academics money isn't the biggest issue since you'll just PSLF anyway.

Probably Harvard. I think this could go either way.

Does that $280,000 Harvard number include cost of living? Cause you'll probably spend that living in NY anyway.

Edit: actually, the Harvard guy up further in the thread is telling you not to go to Harvard. That's everything you need to know, go NYU, take the money and run.

And honestly...... OB/Gyn seems to be a malignant specialty almost everywhere. You'll survive.

 

[roundgarlic]

Honestly if you're absolutely set on academics money isn't the biggest issue since you'll just PSLF anyway.

Probably Harvard. I think this could go either way.

Hey! Thanks for weighing in. I talked to someone about PSLF and she said it ended up not being realistic for her financial situation and it was better for her to hold onto her loans. Regardless, I don’t think I would graduate with loans either way. Harvard is solely tuition, I would be paying for COL at either school. With cheap-ish housing at NYU and good financial habits I think I could keep my COL way lower than $280k over 4 years!

Anyway - I think I’m feeling pretty good about NYU at the moment! Talking it over this weekend with my parents and finalizing .

 

[roundgarlic]

Decided NYU! Thanks everyone!