Has Anyone considered N.D. or Naturopathic schools?

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mclinkin94

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Most of us can admit that if we are interested in medicine (and not dentistry, optometry and podiatry) that we are stuck with MD and DO schools. That is not true. Has anyone ever even thought about ND schools. ND degrees are just like MD's and DO's and they require the same pre-medical pre-requisites. They are practically as well trained as MD and DO but they have separate focuses.

What do you think?

MOD NOTE: This is in the Pre-Medical forum because, ND can be an option for pre-meds. May I ask a question. Is there any reason that SDN does not have an ND forum? May I suggest one?

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Most of us can admit that if we are interested in medicine (and not dentistry, optometry and podiatry) that we are stuck with MD and DO schools. That is not true. Has anyone ever even thought about ND schools. ND degrees are just like MD's and DO's and they require the same pre-medical pre-requisites. They are practically as well trained as MD and DO but they have separate focuses.

What do you think?

MOD NOTE: This is in the Pre-Medical forum because, ND can be an option for pre-meds. May I ask a question. Is there any reason that SDN does not have an ND forum? May I suggest one?

That is not medicine. That is not an option for premeds. You're a horrible troll, go find a hobby.
 
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I have one friend who's in an N.D. program out west, and she loves it. I feel like in the US naturopathy is considered a "taboo" subject, and it's still pretty easy to pose as an N.D. by getting a certificate from some crackjob school online. While homeopathic or naturopathic practices are pretty common everywhere else in the world, it hasn't caught on in the US yet. Even DO degrees have yet to catch on quite as much as M.Ds
 
I have one friend who's in an N.D. program out west, and she loves it. I feel like in the US naturopathy is considered a "taboo" subject, and it's still pretty easy to pose as an N.D. by getting a certificate from some crackjob school online. While homeopathic or naturopathic practices are pretty common everywhere else in the world, it hasn't caught on in the US yet. Even DO degrees have yet to catch on quite as much as M.Ds

I do agree with you, but I'm looking for reasons as to why pre-meds dont even think to consider ND schools. Is it arrogance? is it salary-are they money driven? If you are interested in medicine N.D. school is definitely a choice!
 
That is not medicine. That is not an option for premeds. You're a horrible troll, go find a hobby.

It actually is an option for premeds. Do your research on the subject.
 
Most of us can admit that if we are interested in medicine (and not dentistry, optometry and podiatry) that we are stuck with MD and DO schools. That is not true. Has anyone ever even thought about ND schools. ND degrees are just like MD's and DO's and they require the same pre-medical pre-requisites. They are practically as well trained as MD and DO but they have separate focuses.

What do you think?

MOD NOTE: This is in the Pre-Medical forum because, ND can be an option for pre-meds. May I ask a question. Is there any reason that SDN does not have an ND forum? May I suggest one?

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P.S. -8/10
 
I do agree with you, but I'm looking for reasons as to why pre-meds dont even think to consider ND schools. Is it arrogance? is it salary-are they money driven? If you are interested in medicine N.D. school is definitely a choice!

Naturopathy has gained some widespread acceptance where I live (Seattle). I still would not consider getting an ND simply because of how limited the field is relative to allo/osteopathic medicine. I do, however, appreciate the emphasis on wellness and balance that is central to naturopathy. This same emphasis on prevention, wellness, whatever, can still be part of mainstream medicine, it's more that many patients don't give a **** about it. I think those that seek care from an ND are more likely to be healthy anyway...kinda goes with the whole "granola" crowd.
 
A lot of that crap they push is not based on any kind of evidence other than "personal experience".

Proof they patients they treat are NOT more healthy: http://www.springerlink.com/content/2mpl5g3480466684/

" Children were significantly less likely to receive each of the four recommended vaccinations if they saw a naturopathic physician. Children who saw chiropractors were significantly less likely to receive each of three of the recommended vaccinations. Children aged 1–17 years were significantly more likely to be diagnosed with a vaccine-preventable disease if they received naturopathic care. Use of provider-based complementary/alternative medicine by other family members was not independently associated with early childhood vaccination status or disease acquisition. Pediatric use of complementary/alternative medicine in Washington State was significantly associated with reduced adherence to recommended pediatric vaccination schedules and with acquisition of vaccine-preventable disease."
 
Before anyone replies in earnest (too late), I would suggest perusing OP's thread history.
 
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To answer the question of the OP I considered 3 options:

A. No
B. Hell No
C. F No

I went with C on this one.
 
A lot of that crap they push is not based on any kind of evidence other than "personal experience".

Proof they patients they treat are NOT more healthy: http://www.springerlink.com/content/2mpl5g3480466684/

" Children were significantly less likely to receive each of the four recommended vaccinations if they saw a naturopathic physician. Children who saw chiropractors were significantly less likely to receive each of three of the recommended vaccinations. Children aged 1–17 years were significantly more likely to be diagnosed with a vaccine-preventable disease if they received naturopathic care. Use of provider-based complementary/alternative medicine by other family members was not independently associated with early childhood vaccination status or disease acquisition. Pediatric use of complementary/alternative medicine in Washington State was significantly associated with reduced adherence to recommended pediatric vaccination schedules and with acquisition of vaccine-preventable disease."

Okay, about the article, the problem is not all alternative medicine providers are accredited / board certified ND's. There are currently 15 US states that require alternative medicine providers to be ND's and board certified and they must have graduated from ND School.

Second: an ND should not be a primary care physician!!! Instead they should be a referral form MD to receive natural care for stress reduction (for example). ND's should be more like podiatrists-a specialty.

Personally, I am in love with the philosophical view point of ND education as I am in love with Osteopathic Manipulative medicine.
 
I think that most premeds here are interested in 'evidence-based' careers, multiple practice options, and/or money. N.D. doesn't have enough of any of these yet. The stigma against therapies like homeopathy are also very well ingrained. So, good luck convincing anyone on here to start a forum..........

Don't feel bad, though, I don't think my 'faith-healing' forum idea is going to go over, either. Bummed..... ;(
 
I think that most premeds here are interested in 'evidence-based' careers, multiple practice options, and/or money. N.D. doesn't have enough of any of these yet. The stigma against therapies like homeopathy are also very well ingrained. So, good luck convincing anyone on here to start a forum..........

Don't feel bad, though, I don't think my 'faith-healing' forum idea is going to go over, either. Bummed..... ;(

Again, I think there is a ton of misconceptions on the subject. Yes ND's don't get paid much, yes they have a bad rep, but it is not by a long shot "not evidence-based". We have seen results of such alternative therapeutics and therapies.

Speaking of SDN, how do you urge for a thread on ND?- I think it would be good to have one.
 
Again, I think there is a ton of misconceptions on the subject. Yes ND's don't get paid much, yes they have a bad rep, but it is not by a long shot "not evidence-based". We have seen results of such alternative therapeutics and therapies.

Speaking of SDN, how do you urge for a thread on ND?- I think it would be good to have one.

oh wow, I could get paid "not much" and be looked down on by the medical community and public at large? SIGN ME UP!
 
how much lead is in those chinese herbs?
do you have a sale on plastic pyramids
 
oh wow, I could get paid "not much" and be looked down on by the medical community and public at large? SIGN ME UP!

Remember when D.O. was still like that (some may argue that it still is)? There is hope. This is the chance where you really can apply yourself and prove to the medical community an ND's legitamacy and then that could inturn increase the demand for ND which would increase salary.

I do understand what you mean, I understood that from the start, but what are people doing who fail or lose motivation to continously apply to MD or DO school or any professional school? They end up as something else or a master's degree or Ph.D which is different from M.D. DO etc because it is not a clinical application. How do you get this clinical application (if you are still interested) and the degree that goes with it (without being MD or DO or anything else)?

ND YOU FOOLS!😀
prove yourselves worthy.
 
With your 22 ACT, why don't you go back to studying instead of trolling? Oh wait, you already have a 33 or 34 MCAT or have you not taken it yet? You really have to make it clear since you've posted three different things.

On the other hand, you'll probably get easily accepted to an N.D. program since you are a URM, you Egyptian "African American."
 
Remember when D.O. was still like that (some may argue that it still is)? There is hope. This is the chance where you really can apply yourself and prove to the medical community an ND's legitamacy and then that could inturn increase the demand for ND which would increase salary.

I do understand what you mean, I understood that from the start, but what are people doing who fail or lose motivation to continously apply to MD or DO school or any professional school? They end up as something else or a master's degree or Ph.D which is different from M.D. DO etc because it is not a clinical application. How do you get this clinical application (if you are still interested) and the degree that goes with it (without being MD or DO or anything else)?

ND YOU FOOLS!😀
prove yourselves worthy.

Maybe the ease of which one gets into an ND school accounts for the bad rep and lack of pay?
 
Okay, about the article, the problem is not all alternative medicine providers are accredited / board certified ND's. There are currently 15 US states that require alternative medicine providers to be ND's and board certified and they must have graduated from ND School.

Second: an ND should not be a primary care physician!!! Instead they should be a referral form MD to receive natural care for stress reduction (for example). ND's should be more like podiatrists-a specialty.

Personally, I am in love with the philosophical view point of ND education as I am in love with Osteopathic Manipulative medicine.

That paper is not saying N.D.s are primary care providers. The paper is stressing that the naturopathic view point, which tends to be very anti-vaccine, leads to disease.

Also, here is the admission requirements for Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine, in Arizona. It is one of the schools that is "licensed", or whatever.
http://www.scnm.edu/apply-to-scnm.html

No MCAT required. ND =/= MD or DO.
 
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Well in all fairness you get what you pay for at an ND school!

Doctor of Naturopathy (N.D.)
Core Curriculum & Electives: 68 minimum to 194 total credit hours
Clinical Externship: 80 total credit hours Approx. $6,800-$19,400
 
PA, NP, DDS, DPM, DPT, R.D., O.D............or Caribbean............🙂

:laugh:

Why dont people just go to Caribbean schools just because they offer MD instead of DO? Wait, is it because of the decreased chance of residency, or is it the Spanish language?

As far as dentist, R.D etc., I said all the alike to MD and DO 😛

PA's will not have their sunshine and lollipops for a long time-they are not doctors.

R.D's however are necessary as opposed to PA ( in which clinical work can be done by physicians)
 
how much does it cost if i choose these from your menu:

Bachelor of Science with a Major in Nutrition and Culinary Arts
Certificate in Chinese Herbal Medicine
Master of Science in Midwifery
Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine/Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine

i don't want it extra spicy or anything.. and no msg
 
That paper is not saying N.D.s are primary care providers. The paper is stressing that the naturopathic view point, which tends to be very anti-vaccine, leads to disease.

The paper talked about how Naturopathic doctors don't let kids have their vaccines. An ND has no right to do this if they are not primary care. If they are primary care, it is a different story.

Can you only have a podiatrist as your doctor? In the same logic, you cant have naturopaths as your only doctor either.
 
Can you only have a podiatrist as your doctor? In the same logic, you cant have naturopaths as your only doctor either.

Yes, I would allow a podiatrist to be my doctor. They do residencies and they practice evidence based medicine.

I would never allow an N.D. to take "care" of me.

Show me your research displaying how evidence based their practice is.
 
granada is in spain
grenada is in the caribbean sea

did you finish high school?
 
With your 22 ACT, why don't you go back to studying instead of trolling? Oh wait, you already have a 33 or 34 MCAT or have you not taken it yet? You really have to make it clear since you've posted three different things.

On the other hand, you'll probably get easily accepted to an N.D. program since you are a URM, you Egyptian "African American."

This was uncalled for. If you have nothing useful to say then leave the thread.
 
This hippie LOL.

Explanation: I'm trying to imagine scenarios and see what people think-I guess that makes you a troll? :shrug:

This is what I do to gain confidence. And I'm sorry but I could give you an example. This thread right here: It is like a boost of confidence that I could pursue a job in medicine even if worse come to worst. That is all that I really need. This apparently leads to attacks on SDN. I thought this place was a forum where questions get answered.
 
keep smoking
don't be discouraged...
avoid noxious weeds. not everything natural is good for you
 
Explanation: I'm trying to imagine scenarios and see what people think-I guess that makes you a troll? :shrug:

This is what I do to gain confidence. And I'm sorry but I could give you an example. This thread right here: It is like a boost of confidence that I could pursue a job in medicine even if worse come to worst. That is all that I really need. This apparently leads to attacks on SDN. I thought this place was a forum where questions get answered.

Sorry, I didn't mean to insult you, really. I actually am into naturopathy (which is why I called myself a hippie) and wish people took it more seriously. However I also am a believer in and student-to-be of traditional medicine. For better or worse, most people do look at naturopathy like it's BS. It's simply a bias that exists.

I was LOLing because your post history is cute, I guess-- you're in HS and so motivated, and perhaps a touch naive. We joke around here on the forum, no offense intended! People ARE here to help you. Good luck to you, future doctor!
 
Dear OP,

You probably didn't realize you were walking into a hornets nest by simply bringing up Naturopathy. I am a premed and actually considered ND school for a long time. If you find an accredited 4-year program, the first two years of hard science (curriculum accredited regionally, at the doctoral level) is solid. I've actually met a few MDs who graduated and went through ND programs later at an accelerated pace, given their backgrounds. Their feeling was that the academic sciences were excellent and even on par with that of regular medical schools.

The problem with ND training, however, lies in two places: one is an additional heavy reliance on modalities that have either not been scientifically evaluated or have been evaluated and are not accepted by the mainstream. The debate here usually ends up somewhere between accusations of pseudo-scientific methods on one side and finger-pointing to Big Pharma and dogmatic rigidity on the other. Meh.

In my opinion, NDs have a lot to offer, but the absolute GIGANTIC deal-breaker is their lack of sufficient clinical training. They're required to make approximately 300 patient contacts during their clinical "internship" which occurs across 3 or 4 4-hour shifts per week. That's a "residency" of 12-16 hours per week (3 patients per 4 hour shift) for one year. That's all that's required to gain a license as a primary care provider in the states that license NDs. (In Oregon they can even prescribe narcotics.) Obviously pales in comparison to the 3+ years at 80 hours per week for a standard MD/DO residency.


That said, this is the direction medicine is taking in America. In states that license NDs, their scope of practice is roughly equivalent to that of a Nurse Practitioner or PA--often working autonomously, prescribing meds, diagnosing, billing insurance, etc. But they seem to work almost exclusively out of private practice due to their lack of clinical training and, therefore, acceptance into hospital settings. As a result, if you meet a recently graduated ND, in my experience, you will not be impressed. However, those who have managed to survive 20 years through active practice have attained the experience of most doctors and often have a lot to offer their patients. Those NDs, although rare, are brilliant individuals.

Another significant problem in the ND community is the current lack of competitiveness to enter ND school and, therefore, lower quality student body. Currently, admission to ND school is a cakewalk compared to MD/DO school. If NDs are licensed more widely and compensated better for their work, these schools will attract and graduate higher quality students. The trend is upward, but it seems like it might be some time before ND schools attain the level of integrity necessary to graduate competent physicians.

Finally, on a positive note, they actually study nutrition on a biochemical level for several years. Seems like a no-brainer for a medical school curriculum.

My two cents, even though I can sense the impending barrage for speaking a little truth...
 
dear op,

you probably didn't realize you were walking into a hornets nest by simply bringing up naturopathy. I am a premed and actually considered nd school for a long time. If you find an accredited 4-year program, the first two years of hard science (curriculum accredited regionally, at the doctoral level) is solid. I've actually met a few mds who graduated and went through nd programs later at an accelerated pace, given their backgrounds. Their feeling was that the academic sciences were excellent and even on par with that of regular medical schools.

The problem with nd training, however, lies in two places: One is an additional heavy reliance on modalities that have either not been scientifically evaluated or have been evaluated and are not accepted by the mainstream. The debate here usually ends up somewhere between accusations of pseudo-scientific methods on one side and finger-pointing to big pharma and dogmatic rigidity on the other. Meh.

In my opinion, nds have a lot to offer, but the absolute gigantic deal-breaker is their lack of sufficient clinical training. They're required to make approximately 300 patient contacts during their clinical "internship" which occurs across 3 or 4 4-hour shifts per week. That's a "residency" of 12-16 hours per week (3 patients per 4 hour shift) for one year. That's all that's required to gain a license as a primary care provider in the states that license nds. (in oregon they can even prescribe narcotics.) obviously pales in comparison to the 3+ years at 80 hours per week for a standard md/do residency.


That said, this is the direction medicine is taking in america. In states that license nds, their scope of practice is roughly equivalent to that of a nurse practitioner or pa--often working autonomously, prescribing meds, diagnosing, billing insurance, etc. But they seem to work almost exclusively out of private practice due to their lack of clinical training and, therefore, acceptance into hospital settings. As a result, if you meet a recently graduated nd, in my experience, you will not be impressed. However, those who have managed to survive 20 years through active practice have attained the experience of most doctors and often have a lot to offer their patients. Those nds, although rare, are brilliant individuals.

Another significant problem in the nd community is the current lack of competitiveness to enter nd school and, therefore, lower quality student body. Currently, admission to nd school is a cakewalk compared to md/do school. If nds are licensed more widely and compensated better for their work, these schools will attract and graduate higher quality students. The trend is upward, but it seems like it might be some time before nd schools attain the level of integrity necessary to graduate competent physicians.

Finally, on a positive note, they actually study nutrition on a biochemical level for several years. Seems like a no-brainer for a medical school curriculum.

My two cents, even though i can sense the impending barrage for speaking a little truth...

+1
 
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