Has anyone started med school with upwards of $150,000 in undergraduate debt?

[Gauss44]

Has anyone started med school with upwards of $150,000 in undergraduate debt? If so, do you know if there is a danger of running out of funding before finishing medical school?

Just before graduation, I was told that I reached my limit on undergraduate private student loans ($110,000) and could not take out any more prior to graduate school. Sallie Mae told me that it was a debt to income ratio problem which makes no sense to me because I was a student at the time. I checked with certified financial planners who do not understand that. I don't get it either, but it seems like a sign that I might not make through medical school due to lack of funding.

Please advise if you can.

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[xXIDaShizIXx]

Woah how do you even do that? It is pretty high. They may feel that you won't be able to pay it back?

 

[Gauss44]

Woah how do you even do that? It is pretty high. They may feel that you won't be able to pay it back?

Well, I grew up as a "ward of the court" or unadopted foster child. I made it into college without any financial background. Everyone I asked at the time, including advisers, said student loan debt was good debt and not to worry about paying off loans. "College will allow you to get a higher paying job and pay back any loans." Obviously this is misinformation, but I didn't know that at the time. The private college I went to gave me a terrific financial aid package the first year, which I've been told they give students to attract them to the university. Then each consecutive year, I was asked to take out more and more private loans or transfer. Now, I am in debt and wondering if this will limit funding in medical school or even prevent me from finishing medical school?

 

[DrMidlife]

No, this debt load won't prevent you from paying for med school. Med school loans are federal. Different system. Part of the federal loans for med school include GradPlus, which require you to have reasonably good credit, but you're not evaluated on your existing debt load. Whether it's a good idea for you to also take on med school debt isn't something I'm going to get into.

The problem for you is that your $150k is private debt. If you can get the private loans deferred while you're in med school (which isn't assumed), then you will effectively have two separate debt loads to handle once you're in residency and beyond.

Debt load #1 will be your med school debt load, which will be federal, thus subject to lots of repayment options and consideration for your total income ratio. It's normal lately for med school to cost $250k for four years. Interest accrues on all of it all the time, so depending on your choices that $250k can easily pop to $400k before you're out of residency.

Debt load #2 will be your private debt load, which also accrues interest while you're in med school, and offers none of the considerations of federal student loans. Capitalization of that interest is daily or monthly, so the growth of the debt is faster than federal loans.

So debt load #1 can be $400k, and debt load #2 can be about the same, when you start residency. That's uncharted territory.

You can't get any of this debt discharged in a bankruptcy. You can't realistically get the $150k private load paid off if you work for a while before med school. You should hold out for a public med school, no question. If your grades/MCAT are not competitive, you very very very seriously need to consider another career, because there's no reasonable story here for funding for a GPA comeback.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Gauss44]

No, this debt load won't prevent you from paying for med school. Med school loans are federal. Different system. Part of the federal loans for med school include GradPlus, which require you to have reasonably good credit, but you're not evaluated on your existing debt load. Whether it's a good idea for you to also take on med school debt isn't something I'm going to get into.

The problem for you is that your $150k is private debt. If you can get the private loans deferred while you're in med school (which isn't assumed), then you will effectively have two separate debt loads to handle once you're in residency and beyond.

Debt load #1 will be your med school debt load, which will be federal, thus subject to lots of repayment options and consideration for your total income ratio. It's normal lately for med school to cost $250k for four years. Interest accrues on all of it all the time, so depending on your choices that $250k can easily pop to $400k before you're out of residency.

Debt load #2 will be your private debt load, which also accrues interest while you're in med school, and offers none of the considerations of federal student loans. Capitalization of that interest is daily or monthly, so the growth of the debt is faster than federal loans.

So debt load #1 can be $400k, and debt load #2 can be about the same, when you start residency. That's uncharted territory.

You can't get any of this debt discharged in a bankruptcy. You can't realistically get the $150k private load paid off if you work for a while before med school. You should hold out for a public med school, no question. If your grades/MCAT are not competitive, you very very very seriously need to consider another career, because there's no reasonable story here for funding for a GPA comeback.

Best of luck to you.

Thank you for your response. Yes, all $150,000 can be deferred while in school or residency. Only, $40,000 is federal (3% fixed), $110,000 is private sallie mae student loans (6.5% variable).

I tried to work and pay it off prior to medical school, which is why I'm now in the "non-traditional" category. It didn't work. My payments are over $1000 a month and I wasn't able to find a job (or combination of jobs) in this economy to make any reasonable progress on those loans.

My best bet, as I see it, is to go to either a relatively inexpensive medical school meaning the state school (that has an average gpa of 3.63 and average mcat of 33Q), Harvard (which provides great financial aid packages for people with parents that make under $200,000), or some other school with a large endowment which is suppose to translate to great financial aid packages.

I am feeling very discouraged right now since it's so difficult to get into medical school without the debt, and now I need to research my options with the debt, which is proving difficult and at least temporarily seeming impossible.

Does anyone know of any medical schools that have good financial packages for students with serious financial need?

I'll start:
Harvard
UMASS
What else?

Edit: Your sentence, "Part of the federal loans for med school include GradPlus, which require you to have reasonably good credit, but you're not evaluated on your existing debt load." might have just clued me in to the answer to one of the questions in the topic. I think debt to income ratio lowered my credit score. That must have been why I didn't qualify for any more private loans as an undergrad. Oh no, when I stop working the debt to income ratio problem might be back. That part might need to go to a financial adviser. (It's difficult to find a good financial adviser, but that's another problem.)

 

[anguisette]

I don't think I'm financially savvy enough to speculate on the potential med school debt on top of your current undergrad debt problem, but if you're struggling with your $1000 monthly payment now and the loans are deferrable while in school--I suggest taking some cheap community college classes. Take enough credits to qualify for deferring your loans and at least that's a temporary solution if you're living paycheck to paycheck and off cc's. I can't even imagine how you'll apply to med school if you don't make enough to have any savings left over after your loan repayment, living expenses, and etc. If you have a slight credit problem, slow repayment will help with that. If you default on your monthly payments though that will kill your credit score. May not hurt to actually find out what your credit score is. There are refinancing options too to lower your monthly repayments.

 

[Gauss44]

I don't think I'm financially savvy enough to speculate on the potential med school debt on top of your current undergrad debt problem, but if you're struggling with your $1000 monthly payment now and the loans are deferrable while in school--I suggest taking some cheap community college classes. Take enough credits to qualify for deferring your loans and at least that's a temporary solution if you're living paycheck to paycheck and off cc's. I can't even imagine how you'll apply to med school if you don't make enough to have any savings left over after your loan repayment, living expenses, and etc. If you have a slight credit problem, slow repayment will help with that. If you default on your monthly payments though that will kill your credit score. May not hurt to actually find out what your credit score is. There are refinancing options too to lower your monthly repayments.

My monthly payments are as low as they'll go without losing the in-school deferment options. There are no refinancing options with lower interest rates. (If I were to refinance my private student loans, interest would increase. Relatively speaking my rates are good.)

My current credit score is 720 which might take my income into consideration. During medical school I probably won't be working and that might lower my score. I am a very responsible person and am current on all of my bills, including student loan payments.

Regarding your community college comment, I am not sure what you mean. Why would it be beneficial to enroll in classes at a community college now? Sure, if I were enrolled in school loans would be deferred, but then I would have to pay for school. I have already completed my pre-med requirements at a private university. I am not living off of cc's as you commented. And yes, I did save a small retirement fund.

However, I am now considering using that retirement fund to study for a higher mcat score (and to pay for princeton review and living expenses while studying): The thinking is that a higher mcat might allow me to choose a less expensive or financially preferable medical school which MIGHT outweigh keeping the retirement fund. Good idea??? I still trying to figure out if that money should be saved as a future safety net INSTEAD... in case I am likely to have a financial short-fall during medical school or while studying for USMLE? I am still researching that part, but your input is welcome.

 

[DrMidlife]

I want to make sure that some of the issues here are laid out in a brutally crystal clear fashion.

1. Your undergrad school screwed you. You were swindled. For that school to accept you as a student, at all, knowing that you had no financial support from family, knowing that you would need 6 figures of private loans to get your bachelors, in addition to max federal loans, is detestable, unprofessional, and soon to be criminal. Hopefully as a Massachusetts resident you voted for Elizabeth Warren, who started the consumer finance bureau that is tasked with making this kind of con illegal.

2. Sallie Mae screwed you. You were swindled. Allowing an undergrad with no cosigner to get 6 figures in student loans is ridiculous. There is business sense in making those loans, because Sallie Mae has all kinds of insurance against your eventual default, just as the mortgage lending industry lost little in giving minimum wage workers jumbo mortgages. But you, the consumer, have no protection. None.

3. Admissions and financial aid are not connected. Admissions departments are under pressure to collect students who will pay top dollar. Really. Public schools are under real pressure to take more out of state students in order to bring in more money. Financial aid departments don't get a say in whether those students SHOULD be admitted. More to the point, financial aid offices are not tasked with the responsibility to make sense of a ridiculous debt load - they are only responsible for getting students to get money into the school. Don't confuse required exit counseling with common sense debt reduction planning.

4. A med school's endowment or its scholarship outlay has nothing to do with you as a premed who needs money for med school. If you get a full ride scholarship at Harvard, that does exactly nothing to help you with your private student loan burden. You are being naive to look at a school's full ride scholarships. You need to look at military and public health scholarships, and you need to look at cheap schools. If you don't get into UMass, then you need to either keep trying to get into UMass or move to a state where you have more choices.

5. Full-ride scholarships for med school are merit-based. Financial need is not a consideration in med school, because federal loans cover financial need in full fairness. If you are an incredibly competitive candidate, with top stats and pubs and Nobel LORs, then you'll get an acceptance and a scholarship package. Otherwise, you get jack.

6. There is currently no limit on borrowing for med school. No limit. A cost of attendance of $400k, $500k, $600k is covered by federal student loans. There is no max. When you hit the Stafford limit, GradPlus covers the balance.

7. You cannot transfer a private loan balance to a federal loan balance. You cannot consolidate your private loans in with federal loans to take advantage of federal repayment options. Your private debt load is very nearly the same as credit card debt, and you would do well to think of it that way.

8. You are not going to find a financial adviser who can help you with this. There's no money for a financial adviser in helping an overextended premed. No smart financial adviser is going to bet his or her mortgage on the odds that you are going to make it through med school and residency and pay all this off and start buying the financial instruments that pay the financial adviser's mortage. You have to own your financial problems and it would be dumb to keep trusting advisers to help you. Start doing exhaustive research from official sources like studentloans.gov. Get cozy with IBR, PSLF, HPSP and similar.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Gauss44]

I want to make sure that some of the issues here are laid out in a brutally crystal clear fashion.

1. Your undergrad school screwed you. You were swindled. For that school to accept you as a student, at all, knowing that you had no financial support from family, knowing that you would need 6 figures of private loans to get your bachelors, in addition to max federal loans, is detestable, unprofessional, and soon to be criminal. Hopefully as a Massachusetts resident you voted for Elizabeth Warren, who started the consumer finance bureau that is tasked with making this kind of con illegal.

2. Sallie Mae screwed you. You were swindled. Allowing an undergrad with no cosigner to get 6 figures in student loans is ridiculous. There is business sense in making those loans, because Sallie Mae has all kinds of insurance against your eventual default, just as the mortgage lending industry lost little in giving minimum wage workers jumbo mortgages. But you, the consumer, have no protection. None.

3. Admissions and financial aid are not connected. Admissions departments are under pressure to collect students who will pay top dollar. Really. Public schools are under real pressure to take more out of state students in order to bring in more money. Financial aid departments don't get a say in whether those students SHOULD be admitted. More to the point, financial aid offices are not tasked with the responsibility to make sense of a ridiculous debt load - they are only responsible for getting students to get money into the school. Don't confuse required exit counseling with common sense debt reduction planning.

4. A med school's endowment or its scholarship outlay has nothing to do with you as a premed who needs money for med school. If you get a full ride scholarship at Harvard, that does exactly nothing to help you with your private student loan burden. You are being naive to look at a school's full ride scholarships. You need to look at military and public health scholarships, and you need to look at cheap schools. If you don't get into UMass, then you need to either keep trying to get into UMass or move to a state where you have more choices.

5. Full-ride scholarships for med school are merit-based. Financial need is not a consideration in med school, because federal loans cover financial need in full fairness. If you are an incredibly competitive candidate, with top stats and pubs and Nobel LORs, then you'll get an acceptance and a scholarship package. Otherwise, you get jack.

6. There is currently no limit on borrowing for med school. No limit. A cost of attendance of $400k, $500k, $600k is covered by federal student loans. There is no max. When you hit the Stafford limit, GradPlus covers the balance.

7. You cannot transfer a private loan balance to a federal loan balance. You cannot consolidate your private loans in with federal loans to take advantage of federal repayment options. Your private debt load is very nearly the same as credit card debt, and you would do well to think of it that way.

8. You are not going to find a financial adviser who can help you with this. There's no money for a financial adviser in helping an overextended premed. No smart financial adviser is going to bet his or her mortgage on the odds that you are going to make it through med school and residency and pay all this off and start buying the financial instruments that pay the financial adviser's mortage. You have to own your financial problems and it would be dumb to keep trusting advisers to help you. Start doing exhaustive research from official sources like studentloans.gov. Get cozy with IBR, PSLF, HPSP and similar.

Best of luck to you.

This is extremely helpful. I have literally searched and searched and was unable to find much of what you included here.

If most or all medical schools really do cover students full "financial need" with grants and federal loans (as described in #6 above), then the worst case scenario is much better than I thought. If federal loans don't require a credit check (do they?), I would not need to worry about my total debt getting so large that my credit score would sink, which would then eliminate further funding in the loan category. If that's correct(?), then the worst case scenario of not being able to finish medical school due to lack of funding would not happen.

I will definitely apply to UMASS and to every large scholarship I can find. While my grades and mcat are okay (not terrific), I will probably have the best chance at getting either a human rights, community service, disadvantaged background, science grades, or busy body/doing-a-lot-at-once scholarship if there are such things. I am looking into this but there's like a million internet hits to sift through, plenty of people to ask (some of them helpful), guidebooks to read, etc. It will take a while. Suggestions are welcome.

I must complain about the IBR or income based repayment plan (offered only on federal loans). My complaint is that IBR does NOT take private student loan payments into consideration when they calculate your federal loan payment. Their formula is income minus expenses equals ability to pay. But they leave private student loan payments out of the expense category. This results in an inaccurate number, or payments so high that those with significant private student loan debt cannot participate in the income based repayment plan.

Thanks for your clarification and information. I have felt so overwhelmed, puzzled, and at times even hopeless and this really helps.

 

[DrMidlife]

I still see some misunderstandings here.

This is extremely helpful. I have literally searched and searched and was unable to find much of what you included here.

How do I know this stuff? I read. I read everything. I don't expect anybody to figure it out for me. So. Stop searching and start reading the very basic financial aid information that is available on studentloans.gov. If it is boring, too bad. If it doesn't seem to apply to you, too bad. If you aren't finding the exact precise answer for your exact precise situation, too bad. Be the grownup and take charge of your financial future. Nobody is going to hand you anything like convenient information. You need to get the equivalent of a PhD in personal finance and public finance by doing really difficult study of boring, dense information. Read studentloans.gov. Read the master promissory notes you signed for your existing loans. Go after this like your career depends on it, because your career depends on it.

You are in the bottom 1% of most financially screwed premeds, so you can't look at what anybody else is doing. You have to own this.

If most or all medical schools really do cover students full "financial need" with grants and federal loans (as described in #6 above), then the worst case scenario is much better than I thought. If federal loans don't require a credit check (do they?), I would not need to worry about my total debt getting so large that my credit score would sink, which would then eliminate further funding in the loan category. If that's correct(?), then the worst case scenario of not being able to finish medical school due to lack of funding would not happen.

Again, med school costs of $250k are normal for all students. Do you think that the US could keep making more doctors if med students had to cough up $250k, without any help? No. The US medical system depends on being able to pump out doctors, so the US medical system has ensured that med students can finance their education.

Your credit rating is going to fall because of your debt to income ratio. But this is not a factor in financing your medical education. It's a factor in what happens after med school.

I will definitely apply to UMASS and to every large scholarship I can find. While my grades and mcat are okay (not terrific), I will probably have the best chance at getting either a human rights, community service, disadvantaged background, science grades, or busy body/doing-a-lot-at-once scholarship if there are such things. I am looking into this but there's like a million internet hits to sift through, plenty of people to ask (some of them helpful), guidebooks to read, etc. It will take a while. Suggestions are welcome.

You are vastly underestimating the credentials of your competition, to the point of being disrespectful. UMass isn't going to hand you a scholarship for being interested in things. UMass is going to hand scholarships to the unbelievable premeds who have impeccable academic credentials as well as having outstanding leadership in extracurricular activities and who have published scientific papers along with being interested and possibly disadvantaged.

Which is why you need to look at scholarships like military and public health, which are less competitive.

And again, these scholarships do nothing for your private debt load.

I must complain about the IBR or income based repayment plan (offered only on federal loans). My complaint is that IBR does NOT take private student loan payments into consideration when they calculate your federal loan payment. Their formula is income minus expenses equals ability to pay. But they leave private student loan payments out of the expense category. This results in an inaccurate number, or payments so high that those with significant private student loan debt cannot participate in the income based repayment plan.

Let that be the last time you spend effort complaining. You get nothing for complaining. You were over 18 and you purchased a product after signing a disclosure that you didn't read. You are liable for that decision. Private loans are a product. The US is a country that prioritizes profit over almost everything else, thus Sallie Mae can sell you anything Sallie Mae wants to sell you, and the US will protect Sallie Mae but you're on your own.

It's your bed, you made it, and you have to lie in it. These are the breaks. Nobody is going to be interested, at all, in how unfair you think it is. If you want to turn this experience into good, then start deep diving into the details of private and public educational financing and become an expert on the factors that led to your situation so that others don't have to suffer as you will.

You could defer med school to start a class action lawsuit against your undergrad school. You could defer med school to volunteer for Senator Warren and to fight for her to get onto the Senate banking committee (which Senate Republicans are currently blocking). You could defer med school to write a book. You could do lots of things. If you're not going to do the work to change the system, then you have to accept the system. Plain and simple.

Best of luck to you.

 

[anguisette]

I tried to work and pay it off prior to medical school, which is why I'm now in the "non-traditional" category. It didn't work. My payments are over $1000 a month and I wasn't able to find a job (or combination of jobs) in this economy to make any reasonable progress on those loans.

1)Regarding your community college comment, I am not sure what you mean. Why would it be beneficial to enroll in classes at a community college now? Sure, if I were enrolled in school loans would be deferred, but then I would have to pay for school. I have already completed my pre-med requirements at a private university. I am not living off of cc's as you commented. And yes, I did save a small retirement fund.

2) However, I am now considering using that retirement fund to study for a higher mcat score (and to pay for princeton review and living expenses while studying): The thinking is that a higher mcat might allow me to choose a less expensive or financially preferable medical school which MIGHT outweigh keeping the retirement fund. Good idea??? I still trying to figure out if that money should be saved as a future safety net INSTEAD... in case I am likely to have a financial short-fall during medical school or while studying for USMLE? I am still researching that part, but your input is welcome.

1) So I took the first quote to mean that you were struggling with your $1000/month loan repayments with a combination of jobs. I was suggesting that if you were struggling, it might be a better option to continue working and then spend.. let's say ~$500 for a semester worth of community college classes for half a year (that's about how much I paid), compared to $1000 per month in loans for those six months. This wasn't for pre-reqs or anything--you can even take fun classes! It was just a way for you to activate your deferment and have less monthly expenses. If I misunderstood your current financial situation, then maybe you don't need the deferment and can handle the $1000/month payment plan.

2) If by retirement fund you mean borrowing from your 401k or IRA or something along those lines--that's almost always a bad idea because the penalties are large and you have to repay it anyways. If you're saying you currently have a "rainy day fund" in a savings account somewhere that you can access at any time without penalties... I would still hesitate to rely on that now. Especially since the process of applying to medical schools can be expensive.

What is your current GPA and MCAT score? As DrMidlife said, most full-ride scholarships are merit-based, so those numbers are important to know before you decide to retake the MCAT. Generally though, it seems that the likelihood of receiving a merit-based scholarship is hard to predict even for applicants with super star stats. Getting into medical school is difficult enough, I don't think you can rely so much on getting into medical school AND getting a full-ride scholarship. Assume that you will have the average medical student debt upon graduation... can you handle that ON TOP of your current undergrad debt? You have to decide that for yourself.

3) If most or all medical schools really do cover students full "financial need" with grants and federal loans (as described in #6 above), then the worst case scenario is much better than I thought. If federal loans don't require a credit check (do they?), I would not need to worry about my total debt getting so large that my credit score would sink, which would then eliminate further funding in the loan category. If that's correct(?), then the worst case scenario of not being able to finish medical school due to lack of funding would not happen.

3) Let me qualify by saying that I'm only starting the med school financial aid process now--but every financial aid talk on interview day has mentioned that a good credit score is important. I don't think that it's for the federal loan, but more so as a quick gauge of credit worthiness and ability to pay back med school debt. At least one school said that a large amount of debt prior to medical school can be a red flag to the admissions committee. All of the med school financial aid advisors have encouraged paying off all consumer debt, including car loans (which are NOT factored into cost of living expenses even if the school recommends that you own a car), prior to applying for financial aid because the student's credit score/debt may come into play.

 

[Gauss44]

I still see some misunderstandings here.

How do I know this stuff? I read. I read everything. I don't expect anybody to figure it out for me. So. Stop searching and start reading the very basic financial aid information that is available on studentloans.gov. If it is boring, too bad. If it doesn't seem to apply to you, too bad. If you aren't finding the exact precise answer for your exact precise situation, too bad. Be the grownup and take charge of your financial future. Nobody is going to hand you anything like convenient information. You need to get the equivalent of a PhD in personal finance and public finance by doing really difficult study of boring, dense information. Read studentloans.gov. Read the master promissory notes you signed for your existing loans. Go after this like your career depends on it, because your career depends on it.

You are in the bottom 1% of most financially screwed premeds, so you can't look at what anybody else is doing. You have to own this.

Again, med school costs of $250k are normal for all students. Do you think that the US could keep making more doctors if med students had to cough up $250k, without any help? No. The US medical system depends on being able to pump out doctors, so the US medical system has ensured that med students can finance their education.

Your credit rating is going to fall because of your debt to income ratio. But this is not a factor in financing your medical education. It's a factor in what happens after med school.

You are vastly underestimating the credentials of your competition, to the point of being disrespectful. UMass isn't going to hand you a scholarship for being interested in things. UMass is going to hand scholarships to the unbelievable premeds who have impeccable academic credentials as well as having outstanding leadership in extracurricular activities and who have published scientific papers along with being interested and possibly disadvantaged.

Which is why you need to look at scholarships like military and public health, which are less competitive.

And again, these scholarships do nothing for your private debt load.


Let that be the last time you spend effort complaining. You get nothing for complaining. You were over 18 and you purchased a product after signing a disclosure that you didn't read. You are liable for that decision. Private loans are a product. The US is a country that prioritizes profit over almost everything else, thus Sallie Mae can sell you anything Sallie Mae wants to sell you, and the US will protect Sallie Mae but you're on your own.

It's your bed, you made it, and you have to lie in it. These are the breaks. Nobody is going to be interested, at all, in how unfair you think it is. If you want to turn this experience into good, then start deep diving into the details of private and public educational financing and become an expert on the factors that led to your situation so that others don't have to suffer as you will.

You could defer med school to start a class action lawsuit against your undergrad school. You could defer med school to volunteer for Senator Warren and to fight for her to get onto the Senate banking committee (which Senate Republicans are currently blocking). You could defer med school to write a book. You could do lots of things. If you're not going to do the work to change the system, then you have to accept the system. Plain and simple.

Best of luck to you.

What I meant by "BEST" in the part about scholarships: I meant "best" relative to other subject areas, not "best" relative other people. For instance, "Out of all these categories, I would do best in..." Similar to: "Out of reading, writing, and math, I would do best at math (regardless of how anyone else performs)." Maybe I wasn't clear, but I was NOT attempting to compare myself to others.

Changing subjects, I do not lack motivation, effort, or ownership when it comes to solving this financial problem. So MUCH MORE than my career depends on this (here's what motivates me)... My entire life, I've wanted one thing, a family - which would now mean a wife and kids. As a teenager, I thought that going to college would enable me to have a career, qualify for a good job, and to support a family. I was wrong. Now, I am stuck with so much debt, that I cannot in good conscience financially bind myself to another person. This means no marriage, no kids, and no family for me until I find a solution. This is my cross to bare. I work on solving this problem every day, sometimes all day. (And I am aware of the fact that I may never get out of debt. I would like to. I will try to. There are no guarantees in life.)

I have spoken with multiple education and financial attorneys who say unequivocally that legal action is not the solution. I take ownership and only reluctantly spoke with attorneys after learning that they can help people explore all of their options. Suing is not the only thing attorneys do (in case anyone thought it was). I also continue to use ALL sources of information almost every day: books, websites, forums, experts, etc. Obviously, these are not mutually exclusive.

Your fourth paragraph about $250k seems typical of the useless information abundant on the internet. Without knowing the financial situations of the medical students described, how could this information help anyone who is not typical? "I think I will get money because he did," doesn't work for me. And it shouldn't.

Your next paragraph says that credit score will not be a factor in financing my medical school education. I hope so, but am still putting the pieces together. I don't quite get that part yet. I will read the entirety of multiple financial aid websites as I do every week. This often leaves a lot to be desired. Websites tend to have old conflicting incomplete information. As someone who worked in finance for several years, I am aware that many of them really oversimplify important information as well or just get it wrong. It's always important to supplement this sort of research with human communication, or to corroborate it whenever possible.

When it comes to IBR (income based repayment), it is not selfish to complain, and complain loudly. That IS how things get changed. (While I am impacted by the IBR policy, I am not the only one. Being impacted is not a reason to be quiet.) When you complain to the right people, society becomes aware, and laws change. Politicians frequently complain about rotten malfunctioning policies on TV and that's how voters get educated. I hope you can appreciate that. You seem like you would. You seem like an informed and conscious person.

 

[herbiederbie]

Perhaps you've already considered this option, but here goes:

I would check out the posts on this forum regarding getting residency in Texas and trying to apply to the Texas schools with their very reasonable in state tuition. There are a lot of Texas med schools--7 or 8, I believe. You'll want to research very carefully on how to go about establishing residency there. From what I understand, you have to be employed in the state for a year before even applying to a med school. Honestly, since you don't yet have family commitments tying you down, it seems like a good option. Now there's no guarantee you'll get in, of course, but there's no guarantee anyway on this path to becoming a doctor, so why not?

If you really wanted to pay down that debt first, and you're still quite young (20s-early 30s), I would consider doing a cheap 2 year community college nursing program, where you could pay your way through school, without racking up any debt. Then after graduation, work your tail off to pay down that undergrad debt, taking two jobs, working overtime, etc. Could you conceivably do this for 10-15 years or however long it takes to pay it off or at least a good chunk of it off? Are you ok with living very, very simply while doing this? It would be a heck of a lot of work, but if you want to be a doctor badly enough, you'll do whatever it takes to make it happen right?

Best wishes to you!

 

[QofQuimica]

I would advise you not to go to medical school at all. The amount of debt you have taken on (and will continue to take on) is so astronomical that it will affect your other life goals for decades to come, and maybe even the rest of your life. You want a family and kids; is being a doctor really worth giving all that up, or not being able to give them the kind of life that you would like to provide for them?

That being said, you are almost certainly going to ignore this extremely practical advice because you want to follow your dream. In that case, what is your ultimate goal in medicine? Especially considering your background, would you be interested in working as a PCP in an underserved community? If so, I'd recommend checking out the NHSC. While the military would be an option as well, it's really not a good idea to join up just for the money, unless you are ok with ending up working in a combat zone, or otherwise in a location (and maybe in a specialty) not of your choosing.

 

[jjbodean]

i'd strongly consider some type of underserved population with loan forgiveness or a military route if i were in your shoes.

 

[mspeedwagon]

Here is what I would do in your shoes (and what I have done to some extent, but didn't have debt to the same extent as you)

1 - Get out of this mindset that work is hard to find (I hate when people say that b/c it's an excuse... I got 3 job offers within a few weeks after being laid-off in 2009). If a job is hard to find you are doing something wrong (it is true to state you have to work a little harder to find jobs in a bad economy). There is not a state in the US with more jobs in health care than MA. There are a literally thousands of jobs available. I just visited the Dana-Farber website looking for clinical research coordinator jobs and there are several listed. I would look for this type of a position that will start you at 40k with no experience. I'd work the hospital for a year and then look for a pharma job that will likely pay you 65k-80k. That will really help make a dent in your loans.

2 - Get out of the mindset that you have to go to medical school now. I looked at your past posts and couldn't figure out your age, but I'm leaning toward the fact that you are young (around 25). The biggest mistake you'll make is taking on even more debt without clearing a good portion of your private loans.

3 - Get INTO the mindset that your GPA needs to improve and you have to score high on the MCAT and that MA is not a great state. I strongly recommend working to bring your GPA up to a 3.5 and scoring above 30 on the MCAT. Also, you may want to consider NY or TX residency (don't know how flexible moving is for you, but you want a state with a lot of state schools and ones where you won't add substantially to your debt).

Good luck!

I tried to work and pay it off prior to medical school, which is why I'm now in the "non-traditional" category. It didn't work. My payments are over $1000 a month and I wasn't able to find a job (or combination of jobs) in this economy to make any reasonable progress on those loans.

 

[Chuchunezumis]

Really disheartening to see how an 18-20 year old can pretty much be scammed by the educational institution he's been trained to trust.

I'm not sure if you want life advice, but it seems odd to me people are giving it to you without knowing your current income/job unless I missed it somewhere. That seems pretty relevant for what you should do.

 

[ChE04]

I would advise you not to go to medical school at all. The amount of debt you have taken on (and will continue to take on) is so astronomical that it will affect your other life goals for decades to come, and maybe even the rest of your life. You want a family and kids; is being a doctor really worth giving all that up, or not being able to give them the kind of life that you would like to provide for them?

That being said, you are almost certainly going to ignore this extremely practical advice because you want to follow your dream. In that case, what is your ultimate goal in medicine? Especially considering your background, would you be interested in working as a PCP in an underserved community? If so, I'd recommend checking out the NHSC. While the military would be an option as well, it's really not a good idea to join up just for the money, unless you are ok with ending up working in a combat zone, or otherwise in a location (and maybe in a specialty) not of your choosing.

Man... I was thinking the same thing. Not a chance I'd go to med school with that much debt, given how much more debt it would put me in. Add that to the fact that the OP's primary motivation is to gain financial stability to start a family, and not medicine itself? Forget about it. Do you know how long it will be before you can even start thinking about paying down your debt? Thinking about med school is just crazy to me. Not trying to be a downer, but I don't think medicine is the answer. I'm very sorry you're in this predicament though, I can't even imagine how it must feel. Whatever you do decide (like Q said, probably med school) I wish you much success.

 

[Back 5]

Is the advice to not attend medical school, as given to the OP, solely because he stated a few times that he wants to start a family eventually and is feeling as if he cannot due to his debt?

I'm curious if the advice will remain the same for everyone who carries a substantial school loan debt prior to medical school?

 

[DrMidlife]

Is the advice to not attend medical school, as given to the OP, solely because he stated a few times that he wants to start a family eventually and is feeling as if he cannot due to his debt?

I'm curious if the advice will remain the same for everyone who carries a substantial school loan debt prior to medical school?

I suggest, family issues aside, that the uncharted territory of a high six figure, mixed student loan debt load should scare the pee out of a rational person.

Dreamy confidence that as a doctor, every need will surely be met...this is not rational. Your elected officials, who determine the terms of federal loans, and the AMA, which chooses lobbying issues, are still thinking that your family will help you out with money, that $100k is an above average MD debt load, that public service and military programs are stopping the gaps, and that med schools are responsibly considering the long term and/or personal impact of tuition costs. So as your elected officials decide what stays and what goes in the current and future fiscal cliff fiascos, the stability of IBR/ICR/PSLF/HPSP/NHSC and the basic funding of residency (which comes directly from Medicare) should not be assumed stable.

Please, please look at what you're in for after med school. Sanity should be questioned if there is an unwillingness to exert diligence to find and comprehend the terms of existing loans, and to exert the diligence to find and comprehend the facts of additional med school borrowing.

I refer you to a couple of posts from yesterday which should serve as a cautionary tale of immaturity and lack of comprehension. Don't be this guy.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=13381438&postcount=4
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=13381427&postcount=105

Best of luck to you.

 

[Back 5]

I suggest, family issues aside, that the uncharted territory of a high six figure, mixed student loan debt load should scare the pee out of a rational person.

Dreamy confidence that as a doctor, every need will surely be met...this is not rational. Your elected officials, who determine the terms of federal loans, and the AMA, which chooses lobbying issues, are still thinking that your family will help you out with money, that $100k is an above average MD debt load, that public service and military programs are stopping the gaps, and that med schools are responsibly considering the long term and/or personal impact of tuition costs. So as your elected officials decide what stays and what goes in the current and future fiscal cliff fiascos, the stability of IBR/ICR/PSLF/HPSP/NHSC and the basic funding of residency (which comes directly from Medicare) should not be assumed stable.

Please, please look at what you're in for after med school. Sanity should be questioned if there is an unwillingness to exert diligence to find and comprehend the terms of existing loans, and to exert the diligence to find and comprehend the facts of additional med school borrowing.

I refer you to a couple of posts from yesterday which should serve as a cautionary tale of immaturity and lack of comprehension. Don't be this guy.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=13381438&postcount=4
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=13381427&postcount=105

Best of luck to you.

So the choices are as follows:

A) Remain miserable in a career that pays less than public high school teachers and discharge my current $200k loans through IBR in 20 years

OR

B) Go through MD/DO school, accrue an additional $200k of debt and at least enjoy my poverty while I pay off $400k in loans over 20 years?

I'll take B.

 

[DrMidlife]

So the choices are as follows:

A) Remain miserable in a career that pays less than public high school teachers and discharge my current $200k loans through IBR in 20 years

OR

B) Go through MD/DO school, accrue an additional $200k of debt and at least enjoy my poverty while I pay off $400k in loans over 20 years?

I'll take B.

I did too.

 

[MedPR]

So the choices are as follows:

A) Remain miserable in a career that pays less than public high school teachers and discharge my current $200k loans through IBR in 20 years

OR

B) Go through MD/DO school, accrue an additional $200k of debt and at least enjoy my poverty while I pay off $400k in loans over 20 years?

I'll take B.

I'm doing B too.

 

[45408]

You need to look at military and public health scholarships, and you need to look at cheap schools.

I'd agree with this. If my financial situation had been as grim as Gauss's, I think I would have gone the military route. You almost literally could not become a pediatrician or similarly low-paying specialty if you owed over half a million in loans. They pay you well enough during med school that you could also make a dent in your undergrad loans too.

Agree 110% that universities and Sallie Mae are swindling the uninformed.

5. Full-ride scholarships for med school are merit-based. Financial need is not a consideration in med school, because federal loans cover financial need in full fairness. If you are an incredibly competitive candidate, with top stats and pubs and Nobel LORs, then you'll get an acceptance and a scholarship package. Otherwise, you get jack.

That may be the case for full-ride scholarships, but there were some pretty significant (up to 50%) scholarships offered to minorities at my school. Being raised as a ward of the state might open up some scholarship opportunities.

I would advise you not to go to medical school at all. The amount of debt you have taken on (and will continue to take on) is so astronomical that it will affect your other life goals for decades to come, and maybe even the rest of your life. You want a family and kids; is being a doctor really worth giving all that up, or not being able to give them the kind of life that you would like to provide for them?

That being said, you are almost certainly going to ignore this extremely practical advice because you want to follow your dream. In that case, what is your ultimate goal in medicine? Especially considering your background, would you be interested in working as a PCP in an underserved community? If so, I'd recommend checking out the NHSC. While the military would be an option as well, it's really not a good idea to join up just for the money, unless you are ok with ending up working in a combat zone, or otherwise in a location (and maybe in a specialty) not of your choosing.

One of the few times I'll completely disagree with Q, but being a physician is one of the only ways you are going to pay off >$150K in undergrad student loans. There are a pretty small number of jobs out there that would let anyone else pay that monthly payment, which would be something like $1700, by my calculation. That's brutal.

If he's in competitive shape to go to med school (and soon), then now is the time. I'd still definitely consider the military option.

2 - Get out of the mindset that you have to go to medical school now. I looked at your past posts and couldn't figure out your age, but I'm leaning toward the fact that you are young (around 25). The biggest mistake you'll make is taking on even more debt without clearing a good portion of your private loans.

He's not going to make a meaningful impact on his loans while making $40,000 per year and delaying the future of becoming a physician/surgeon and making north of $200,000/year.

 

[QofQuimica]

One of the few times I'll completely disagree with Q, but being a physician is one of the only ways you are going to pay off >$150K in undergrad student loans. There are a pretty small number of jobs out there that would let anyone else pay that monthly payment, which would be something like $1700, by my calculation. That's brutal.

If he's in competitive shape to go to med school (and soon), then now is the time. I'd still definitely consider the military option.

It doesn't sound like he is in competitive shape; he didn't tell us what his stats were, but he did say they were only "ok," which I interpret to mean (maybe wrongly?) that they are lower than the average stats of his state school. He's also planning to take out more loans to pay for MCAT prep and living expenses, so things are going to get worse before they get better in terms of how much debt he's starting with. Then there are app expenses (maybe he'll qualify for financial assistance?) and the cost of living during his gap year. And if it takes him a few cycles to get accepted all while living on loans, or he only gets into an expensive private school? The more you think about the potential pre-med school debt accumulation, the scarier it seems.

DrM basically sums up where I'm coming from. It's not in any way practical to go to med school when it requires that much debt, especially for older applicants; especially given that physician reimbursements, while still high compared to many other jobs, are declining; and especially given that odds are good that most nontrad premeds are going to end up as PCPs earning on the low end of the spectrum. That being said, if being a physician is your dream, then so be it, and there are some ways to make the debt pill less bitter to swallow depending on how well your future career goals match up with programs in place to train physicians for underserved areas or the military. I do think though that joining the military just for the money (and assuming you even meet their age requirements, which some older nontrads won't) is not something to undertake lightly. The military has its own goals for its physicians, which, if not in line with your life goals, could make you feel pretty darn trapped and miserable too.

 

[Chip N Sawbones]

As a military brat I hate to say this, but I think military/NHS is the only way to go for the OP. It would hold his debt down, and if he did a military residency afterward they pay enough that he could get a substantial chunk of his debt knocked out before he was an attending. Granted the commitment after that wouldn't be fun, but he wouldn't necessarily end up in a combat zone. He certainly wouldn't with the air force. The coast guard gets doctors from NHS, which might be another good option. In any case, his time spent as an indentured servant with the military would be substantially shorter than it would as an indentured servant to half a million in student loans. That being said, if the OP is only interested in medicine for money/stable family life, he will probably end up being unhappy in a medical career, and will be doubly unhappy in a military medical career.

 

[Braun7713]

If you're determined to go to medical school, you should seriously consider doing Army/Navy/Air Force HPSP. They pay 100% of tuition, fees, books, etc. plus a $2,000+ stipend per month while in med school. You would owe 4 years back after residency. There's a lot more details to it than this so do some research (check out the other threads on this or contact a recruiter... but beware that there is a lot of negativity on SDN). I know there are downsides to it and some people hate the military, but it may be a good option for you in your situation. Good luck with everything.

 

[MedPR]

If you're determined to go to medical school, you should seriously consider doing Army/Navy/Air Force HPSP. They pay 100% of tuition, fees, books, etc. plus a $2,000+ stipend per month while in med school. You would owe 4 years back after residency. There's a lot more details to it than this so do some research (check out the other threads on this or contact a recruiter... but beware that there is a lot of negativity on SDN). I know there are downsides to it and some people hate the military, but it may be a good option for you in your situation. Good luck with everything.

I've done very little research, but from what I've heard, the HPSP stuff really doesn't help all that much. I've read that, depending on your specialty, you end up making less in your time "repaying" the military. So much less that civilians in your specialty end up pocketing more per year than you even while they repay their loans.

 

[Chip N Sawbones]

I've done very little research, but from what I've heard, the HPSP stuff really doesn't help all that much. I've read that, depending on your specialty, you end up making less in your time "repaying" the military. So much less that civilians in your specialty end up pocketing more per year than you even while they repay their loans.

Probably true for the repayment period, but it would still be enough money for the OP to meet his goal of financial stability sooner. OP, care to weigh in on whether you would consider the military/NHS programs?

 

[MedPR]

Probably true for the repayment period, but it would still be enough money for the OP to meet his goal of financial stability sooner. OP, care to weigh in on whether you would consider the military/NHS programs?

If it's true for the repayment period then being a civilian would help OP (and anyone else) meet financial stability sooner...

What I'm saying is military salary-taxes=$A net income, civilian salary-taxes-loans=$B net income and $B>$A.

 

[Back 5]

If it's true for the repayment period then being a civilian would help OP (and anyone else) meet financial stability sooner...

What I'm saying is military salary-taxes=$A net income, civilian salary-taxes-loans=$B net income and $B>$A.

I would seriously consider the HSPS if I qualified and they were willing to cover some of my previous loans and I actually pass the medical (9 surgeries so far, mostly Ortho).

I tried to go the military route after Chiro school, but every branch had filled their quota on Chiros....of course, their quota was 0, so it was easy to hit the mark.

 

[Chuchunezumis]

This whole situation is disgusting (how an 18-20 year old can get into so much debt which shouldn't be allowed) and while I wish I had some useful advice I just want to say best of luck to you OP.

 

[45408]

It doesn't sound like he is in competitive shape; he didn't tell us what his stats were, but he did say they were only "ok," which I interpret to mean (maybe wrongly?) that they are lower than the average stats of his state school. He's also planning to take out more loans to pay for MCAT prep and living expenses, so things are going to get worse before they get better in terms of how much debt he's starting with. Then there are app expenses (maybe he'll qualify for financial assistance?) and the cost of living during his gap year. And if it takes him a few cycles to get accepted all while living on loans, or he only gets into an expensive private school? The more you think about the potential pre-med school debt accumulation, the scarier it seems.

Yes, it is crucial to know how competitive he is to give appropriate advice.

If he only gets into an expensive private school, then he should definitely go the military route.

I've done very little research, but from what I've heard, the HPSP stuff really doesn't help all that much. I've read that, depending on your specialty, you end up making less in your time "repaying" the military. So much less that civilians in your specialty end up pocketing more per year than you even while they repay their loans.

1. It depends on your specialty.
2. It depends where you go to school.

If you go to a Texas school that only charges $10,000/year and you become an orthopedic surgeon, you will not come out ahead financially. If you go to Tufts for $55K/year + living expenses, and you'd like to become a pediatrician, then you will certainly come out ahead. The military pays a given salary + differential for your specialty. Your military salary and private sector salary will become more disparate the higher paid the specialty is.

For the average applicant going to an average cost school with plans for a mid-range paying specialty, I'd say not to go into the military for financial reasons.

 

[yossarian444]

No, this debt load won't prevent you from paying for med school. Med school loans are federal. Different system. Part of the federal loans for med school include GradPlus, which require you to have reasonably good credit, but you're not evaluated on your existing debt load. Whether it's a good idea for you to also take on med school debt isn't something I'm going to get into.

The problem for you is that your $150k is private debt. If you can get the private loans deferred while you're in med school (which isn't assumed), then you will effectively have two separate debt loads to handle once you're in residency and beyond.

Debt load #1 will be your med school debt load, which will be federal, thus subject to lots of repayment options and consideration for your total income ratio. It's normal lately for med school to cost $250k for four years. Interest accrues on all of it all the time, so depending on your choices that $250k can easily pop to $400k before you're out of residency.

Debt load #2 will be your private debt load, which also accrues interest while you're in med school, and offers none of the considerations of federal student loans. Capitalization of that interest is daily or monthly, so the growth of the debt is faster than federal loans.

So debt load #1 can be $400k, and debt load #2 can be about the same, when you start residency. That's uncharted territory.

You can't get any of this debt discharged in a bankruptcy. You can't realistically get the $150k private load paid off if you work for a while before med school. You should hold out for a public med school, no question. If your grades/MCAT are not competitive, you very very very seriously need to consider another career, because there's no reasonable story here for funding for a GPA comeback.

Best of luck to you.

150,000 will not turn into "about 400K" by the start of residency. Assuming DAILY compounding and capitalization of interest at a rate of 10%, and assuming he did 4 years of med school and a 4 year residency, that 150K will only turn into 334K after 8 years. {150000 * [1 + .10/365]^(365*8)} =333,795.

I too have Sallie Mae private loan (called "Signature Sallie Mae Loan") from undergrad (fortunately, less than 10K in my case). For me, my terms for that loan are better than most of my stafford and direct plus loans from med school. (I guess I probably acquired it during a borrower-friendly year) The interest rate is less than 5% and it capitalizes quarterly (not daily). I had the private loan in forebearance throughout medical school and now again during residency. If the OP's private loan is similar in terms to mine, the 150k will grow to about 210K after 8 years of med school / residency, far less than 400k.

I do think some people are scaring the OP a little too much. There are not many careers where one can make a guaranteed 6-figure income with steady employment. So what if he starts 150K less than the rest of us? Instead of buying a 300,000 house after residency like most doctors, the OP may just have to settle for a 100,000 single-bedroom condo and then he's right back in line with the rest of us. (True, he'll be living a no-frills lifestyle, but that'd be his same lifestyle he'd have if he tried paying off that 150K without an MD) I think he has more of a chance at a debt-free life if he does get into medical school rather than get some normal paying job of 50K that may or may not suffer through bouts of unemployment and stagnated wages.

Bottom line, going to medical school still is a good investment assuming you get in. This is true whether you start medical school as a millionaire or owe a million dollars. This IU finaid director estimates the ROI to be 46% (admittedly, way too optimistic, but it does illustrate some good points) http://blogs.medicine.iu.edu/med-mo...-is-a-medical-education-worth-the-investment/ .
If one could guarantee a successful career in business or law, then sure, in comparison medicine would be a poor investment. However, nobody can guarantee success and high incomes in any field except medicine. This argument assumes he gets in. If one figures in the expected value with the probability of getting accepted vs not getting accepted into the equations, then the whole argument of medicine being a good investment falls apart. I guess that is the biggest flaw in my reasoning.

I think the military route as others have suggested is a fantastic option for OP. The military really is a pretty decent deal for certain situations, especially if one has few family ties anchoring you to any place in the country and don't mind moving and being told where to go; given the OP's unique upbringing, this likely is the case.

Also, admissions and financial aid offices aren't entirely separate. Some medical school admissions offices require proof that you can afford the tuition or at least are eligible for adequate loan coverage or they will rescind your acceptance offer , eg georgetown http://som.georgetown.edu/docs/2012 - Certification of Finances.pdf

 

[MedPR]

Yes, it is crucial to know how competitive he is to give appropriate advice.

If he only gets into an expensive private school, then he should definitely go the military route.


1. It depends on your specialty.
2. It depends where you go to school.

If you go to a Texas school that only charges $10,000/year and you become an orthopedic surgeon, you will not come out ahead financially. If you go to Tufts for $55K/year + living expenses, and you'd like to become a pediatrician, then you will certainly come out ahead. The military pays a given salary + differential for your specialty. Your military salary and private sector salary will become more disparate the higher paid the specialty is.

For the average applicant going to an average cost school with plans for a mid-range paying specialty, I'd say not to go into the military for financial reasons.

👍

 

[45408]

150,000 will not turn into "about 400K" by the start of residency. Assuming DAILY compounding and capitalization of interest at a rate of 10%, and assuming he did 4 years of med school and a 4 year residency, that 150K will only turn into 334K after 8 years. {150000 * [1 + .10/365]^(365*8)} =333,795.


So what if he starts 150K less than the rest of us?

You just made the case that he's going to be starting much further behind than $150K in your first paragraph. That interest will continue to accrue through the entire repayment period as well, and assuming a 10-year repayment plan will end up being $460,000. It's a little more serious than "so what if he...."

 

[Gauss44]

Yes, it is crucial to know how competitive he is to give appropriate advice.

.

sgpa and cgpa average to about 3.55
sgpa much greater than cgpa
cgpa is kind of low but greater than 3 (because I did poorly my 1st year only)

retaking mcat, current score = 30 (with sciences > 10)

highlights
-graduated with honors, cum laude
-double major and minor (graduated on time)
-one of the 1st organizers of an event that has now been recognized internationally and by the white house
-helped start a successful 501c3 organization (I was one of about 7 people during fall/winter/spring, and one of two people who ran the business over it's 1st summer)
-co-founded a club
-completed several 30+ page papers

extracurriculars
-premed club, science club, drummer of local band/performed at clubs, school ensembles, played sports (helped organize competitions), assisted local businesses with advertising and event organizing as part of a pr club (several events were televised or took place at large corporations and were up to standards), maintained a part-time job, worked internships every summer, worked as a freelance journalist published in several local newspapers, tutored, advocated for human rights (disability, lgbt, heritage) everywhere/college/community/workplace by speaking/participating/organizing,
-volunteered for over 500 hours in surgery and emergency (I just love it there and don't want to leave.)
-worked in a medical laboratory analyzing blood and urine specimens
-wrote my own patent for some medical equipment

class work (in addition to typical stuff)
-2 years of medical laboratory classes, analyzing patient specimens and diagnosing under the supervision of nurses
-in high school, I took went to school all day completing the same amount of work as my classmates, then in addition to that, I took 12 credits at a local college, and maintained an A average everywhere (I kept doing a similar amount of work after high school which took the form of extracurriculars, community service, and classes)

multiple hardships in college which I won't get into here

-grew up in a state run foster home where kids came and left every few months. as children we shared stories about everything. in this environment I learned about all sorts of people (classes, subcultures, heritages), and situations (positive, negative, and neutral). kids share stuff adults don't. long story short some of the abuse, addiction, sacrifice for others, etc. that I have witnessed or heard about has left me with an appreciation of human life and background that makes so many people and situations familiar in the emergency department where I volunteer. the diversity created by those situations and everyone else, including highly intelligent peers/patients, helps make the environment something I really like.

I'm sure there's more to the above lists. I'll update them.

 

[Chip N Sawbones]

Gauss, would you be willing to do a military or NHSC program? I'm sorry, but with your stats you are not going to get into programs like Harvard. Since your numbers are below average for your state school, you will have to apply broadly, which means applying to expensive private or OOS schools. With some work you may be able to scare up a few thousand in scholarships, but nothing that will come close to the 200,000 or more of tuition alone that you will need. As TheProwler and Yossarian pointed out, your undergrad debt load is going to keep growing through medical school and residency. Unless you can find a way to radically reduce your medical school debt, such as joining the military or moving to Texas, you are going to remain under that debt load for a long time, even on an attending's salary.

 

[Dr.Tao]

B) Go through MD/DO school, accrue an additional $200k of debt and at least enjoy my poverty while I pay off $400k in loans over 20 years?

I'll take B.

What I don't understand is this panicked attitude toward debt as a future physician. Any other career, than this makes much more sense to me. As a Physician, there are MANY ways to manage the debt including loan forgiveness programs, practicing in underserved areas, joining the military, ect.

FWIW, most Docs I know in Metro DC live in homes that cost FAR more than 400K, so the real question here is can you manage 400K in debt in a high paying career?

I'd say the answer is easily yes!

 

[Chip N Sawbones]

What I don't understand is this panicked attitude toward debt as a future physician. Any other career, than this makes much more sense to me. As a Physician, there are MANY ways to manage the debt including loan forgiveness programs, practicing in underserved areas, joining the military, ect.

FWIW, most Docs I know in Metro DC live in homes that cost FAR more than 400K, so the real question here is can you manage 400K in debt in a high paying career?

I'd say the answer is easily yes!

No one is panicking yet. It is possible to take on a massive debt load for medical school on top of a massive debt load of undergrad loans. DrMidlife and others have done that. However, the OP said that his goal was to become financially stable as soon as possible, so we're looking at the best options to help him achieve that goal.

Mortgages and student loans are very, very different kinds of debt. I would much rather owe 400k on a mortgage than 150k in student loans. If you decide you want out of your house, you can sell it and be debt free. If the house is no longer worth what you owe, you can try a short sale or worst case, get foreclosed on. You will lose any money you put into the house and your credit will be ruined, but you will still be debt free. Someone like me will come along and buy the house, fix it up and sell it again, but that's not important. Student loans, on the other hand, are essentially impossible to default on. If you try, the government will seize your assets and garnish your paychecks and do everything short of breaking your kneecaps to get you to pay up. Now that there are no subsidized loans, student loan interest rates are higher than mortgage interest, and the interest will keep compounding through medical school and residency. The OP could easily find himself over half a million dollars in debt before he starts to collect a doctor's salary. That's enough to severely limit his choices of a specialty and location. It's better to nip the problem in the bud now and find ways to avoid the extreme expense of medical school.

 

[DrMidlife]

What I don't understand is this panicked attitude toward debt as a future physician.

Which part is the panicky part? This is a discussion of serious stuff. I realize you grew up in an America where people don't discuss - they just yell at each other. Well, this is a "discussion". It's what people do to figure things out. Panicking is what happens when discussion didn't.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Dr.Tao]

Which part is the panicky part? This is a discussion of serious stuff. I realize you grew up in an America where people don't discuss - they just yell at each other. Well, this is a "discussion". It's what people do to figure things out. Panicking is what happens when discussion didn't.

Best of luck to you.

Please substitute the word "panicked" for "snippy".😎

 

[Dr.Tao]

Mortgages and student loans are very, very different kinds of debt. I would much rather owe 400k on a mortgage than 150k in student loans.

And I'd rather do both, this doesn't have to be the either or proposition you've made it out to be. . 😀 Having a bill to pay IS having a bill to pay no matter where that bill comes from. It's all about perspective.

The OP could easily find himself over half a million dollars in debt before he starts to collect a doctor's salary. That's enough to severely limit his choices of a specialty and location. It's better to nip the problem in the bud now and find ways to avoid the extreme expense of medical school.

It seems that you're suggesting the OP not go to med school due to the expense involved. And I'm suggesting the OP go to med school, but not feel compelled to compete with his or her Doctor friends as far as lifestyle is concerned when they're done. One choice will very likely end up the OP having regret about the choices he/she made while the other path with get the OP a chance to pursue what's probably a life long dream. And with a couple of life threatening medical situations under my belt, I'm going for it!

PS- Not once did the thought of my debt cross my mind during those illnesses, but the thought of having not finished medical school DID. I didn't think about my super mortgage at the time either.😛

 

[ChE04]

What I don't understand is this panicked attitude toward debt as a future physician. Any other career, than this makes much more sense to me. As a Physician, there are MANY ways to manage the debt including loan forgiveness programs, practicing in underserved areas, joining the military, ect.

FWIW, most Docs I know in Metro DC live in homes that cost FAR more than 400K, so the real question here is can you manage 400K in debt in a high paying career?

I'd say the answer is easily yes!

Medical school is not getting any cheaper. People you know who are already doctors paid a lot less for medical school than we do today (I'm assuming that they are not recent grads here). Add cost of living on top of this:

1981 average public/private school tuition: ~$3,000/~$9,000
2003 average public/private school tuition: ~$15,000/~$31,000
2010 average public/private school tuition: ~$21,000/~$41,000

I know you can be more than comfortable working as a doctor (ie, $400k mortgage), but I think the ultra rich doctor stereotype is going to get played out real soon, if it's not already. And as was mentioned before: mortgage vs. school debt are totally different.

...the other path with get the OP a chance to pursue what's probably a life long dream...

Also, unless I misread, there was nothing in the OP's post about it being a lifelong dream to be a doctor. The goal was financial stability.

I guess it's worth it to some people to take on massive debt to be a doctor. But for me personally, not so much.

http://www.amsa.org/AMSA/Homepage/About/Committees/StudentLife/TuitionFAQ.aspx
https://services.aamc.org/tsfreports/report_median.cfm?year_of_study=2012

 

[Chip N Sawbones]

And I'd rather do both, this doesn't have to be the either or proposition you've made it out to be. . 😀 Having a bill to pay IS having a bill to pay no matter where that bill comes from. It's all about perspective.

There is a big difference between bills if you're unable to pay them and want to stop. If I ran out of money it would be very easy for me to cancel my internet service and stop paying that bill. If I had student loans then I would have no option but to pay the bill or go back to school, in which case interest would still be accumulating, leaving me with a bigger bill when I'm done.

It seems that you're suggesting the OP not go to med school due to the expense involved. And I'm suggesting the OP go to med school, but not feel compelled to compete with his or her Doctor friends as far as lifestyle is concerned when they're done. One choice will very likely end up the OP having regret about the choices he/she made while the other path with get the OP a chance to pursue what's probably a life long dream. And with a couple of life threatening medical situations under my belt, I'm going for it!

PS- Not once did the thought of my debt cross my mind during those illnesses, but the thought of having not finished medical school DID. I didn't think about my super mortgage at the time either.😛

If you read his first few posts, it's clear that the OP's goal is to attain financial stability as quickly as possible. To help him meet this goal, I'm suggesting that he either reconsider the idea of going to medical school or find a way to substantially reduce tuition costs, such as by establishing Texas residency and going to school there or by joining a military/NHSC program. Unless he is able to get very large scholarships, which I consider unlikely, the cost of medical school tuition and living expenses combined with his existing loans will leave him so deep in debt that he will either be severely limited in his career options or will remain in a financially unstable situation for a long time.

 

[BrianK0220]

HPSP, Netflix and sandwiches, cheapest apartment, target clothing, junk car, etc. until finished with medical school, residency, and military commitment. You'd be fine.

 

[grt398]

You'll need full pubmed to access this (I'm not sure what SDN policy is about posting or I'd post the full article) but I would highly recommend you read the following article titled:

Can Medical Students Afford to Choose Primary Care? An Economic Analysis of Physician Education Debt Repayment.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23165279

It's a well done article by a very good economist and others and it provides tangible numbers for what your monthly income will look like depending on your debt load, choice of repayment plan and starting salary. Most of the assumptions underlying their model are fairly reasonable, other than their assumed rate of return and possibly underestimating urban housing expenses.

 

[ChE04]

You'll need full pubmed to access this (I'm not sure what SDN policy is about posting or I'd post the full article) but I would highly recommend you read the following article titled:

Can Medical Students Afford to Choose Primary Care? An Economic Analysis of Physician Education Debt Repayment.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23165279

It's a well done article by a very good economist and others and it provides tangible numbers for what your monthly income will look like depending on your debt load, choice of repayment plan and starting salary. Most of the assumptions underlying their model are fairly reasonable, other than their assumed rate of return and possibly underestimating urban housing expenses.

This article also assumes married with kids, and $40k/yr (+1%/yr) spousal income through medical school, residency, etc...

HPSP, Netflix and sandwiches, cheapest apartment, target clothing, junk car, etc. until finished with medical school, residency, and military commitment. You'd be fine.

Sounds like fun. Not sure if you're being serious...

 

[Dr.Tao]

HPSP, Netflix and sandwiches, cheapest apartment, target clothing, junk car, etc. until finished with medical school, residency, and military commitment. You'd be fine.

Home - reasonably low mortgage, and almost PAID off (Assuming no move for med school and with 5 to choose from this could likely work out)

Car- Luxury, PAID off

Netflix - no problemo, got over 500 CD's of the best movies EVER!

Target clothing - Consignment shops/ eBay offer quality for a great deal!

Military commitment - substitute NIH or PHS commitment

What was left off list? Spouse that makes WELL into six figures.

Next question/problem?

Like I said, perspective is EVERYTHING!!!!

 

[45408]

FWIW, most Docs I know in Metro DC live in homes that cost FAR more than 400K, so the real question here is can you manage 400K in debt in a high paying career?

I'd say the answer is easily yes!

This is a highly fallacious comparison. Your mortgage is over 30 years, on an actual asset that can appreciate in value, be sold to repay the debt, with tax-deductible interest. If interest rates drop, you can refinance at a new rate. If all else fails, walk away and claim bankruptcy.

A federal student loan is fixed at 6.8%, cannot be consolidated at a lower rate, cannot be expunged for any reason other than death or total permanent disability, represents no physical asset, and the tax deduction on its interest fades away as your income increases. Plus, it's acquiring interest (maybe capitalizing) during a phase in your life when you can't pay it off or pay much.

And I'd rather do both, this doesn't have to be the either or proposition you've made it out to be. . 😀 Having a bill to pay IS having a bill to pay no matter where that bill comes from.

That's simply wrong.