Has been put on Probation or unfiarly terminated..Gather here

[Chalo1986]

Not trying to add fuel to the fire, but as an IMG I felt the playing field was equal between all residents in my program; I invite gypsy16 to name another country which provides the same amount of opportunities in addition to a transparent process for residency application, such as is the USMLE.

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[chicagochildpsych]

I'm an IMG, my malignant program treated AMGs and IMGs equally crappy


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[npappasan]

You haven't actually displayed a single instance of unfair treatment as you say. It seems like you just want to believe it's unfair because it happened to you. I also don't see why you refuse to acknowledge your role in this. To you, PDs have all been racist and mean. I think you sound a little nuts, to be honest.

I've noticed a trend in these types of posts. There seem to be quite a few; a resident or medical student post on here how they are being treated unfairly from their POV, but never, ever give any SPECIFIC details as to the situations. It's always "I don't want to get into any details" but then expect us to give advice on what they should do with regard to a situation that we have no clue about. Insight seems to mostly be lacking with these folks.

 

[pulmoblast]

I'm going to disagree, somewhat, with this.

First of all, I have heard 100's of stories of people working at WalMart or similar, being fired, and having their lives unravel. They live paycheck to paycheck, and missing a single paycheck --> rent / car payment missed --> Homeless / transport problems --> chronic joblessness. So, in fact, a fired medical resident probably has more resilience than someone at WalMart.

Next, the fact that some medical students have lots of debt is not really my problem. I care very much about my residents and I work hard to ensure they get good training and get treated well. But if I do have to let one of them go, which happens infrequently, their financial situation isn't my responsibility. In most cases I do try to negotiate with GME to pay the resident for an extra month with benefits -- I'm not cold hearted. But I won't keep someone on because of debt, or perhaps more importantly I won't fire someone who has no debt because "well, it doesn't matter".

Perhaps most importantly, just because you graduated from a US medical school doesn't mean that you've been "guaranteed" to be trainable. In many cases, when we have a resident with problems we discover that similar problems occurred in school, and were either "glossed over" or the school "remediated" the problems and thought they were "fixed enough". In fact, if you graduate from my program I am putting my good name behind you, and I am unwilling to do that unless I am comfortable recommending you for your next position. If you don't meet my standards, then you do not graduate from my program.

I do agree that there is a power imbalance that can be abused by programs. I expect there are some programs that are malignant, where the program administration can get rid of anyone they want. That said, I also think it's likely that many people whom are terminated for "interprofessional" issues blame their programs for being malignant, when in fact the problem is that they can't get along with peers / nursing / students. They think that as long as they "prescribe the right treatment", they are a good doctor. Gregory House, from that TV show, is a great example. He's super smart. Always seems to make the right diagnosis. (Except when the show is really wrong). Yet, if he was a resident in my program, he would be fired for his performance.

You remind me of almost every single conceited and self righteous ivory tower academic who won't survive a day in the real world of clinical medicine, and won't be able to justify a wRVU based salary. Glad to never know you...

Or maybe I do ?




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[NotAProgDirector]

You remind me of almost every single conceited and self righteous ivory tower academic who won't survive a day in the real world of clinical medicine, and won't be able to justify a wRVU based salary. Glad to never know you...

Or maybe I do ?

Not sure what you mean by "won't survive a day in the real world of clinical medicine". I have wRVU targets that I need to meet. ALL of my RVU's are generated by me alone -- no residents, all private service. My clinical salary is absolutely dependent upon my RVU production. Sure, I get paid to be the PD, but that seems fair. If I don't make my clinical RVU targets, my salary is cut.

But, regardless, personal attacks aside: What about my comment irks you so? I'm honestly interested in your opinion, not trolling. Although I'd prefer an answer without vitriol.

 

[npappasan]

Wait!!! Before you answer, let me get some popcorn...

 

[Nephro critical care]

My first 2 months on residency were an absolute nightmare. I am an IMG and had no practical experience or US clinical experience prior to coming here. On top of that my visa / residency start was delayed 2 months (thanks to Homeland Security/USCIS) and my residency was almost cancelled before I even started. On top of it when I got here the immigration officer at the airport logged me in on a visitor visa rather than a work visa meaning I was unable to apply for SSI card meaning I couldn't get paid in residency or get a credit card or a drivers license or even be covered by malpractice insurance. My 2nd month was in ICU and I remember 1/2 the month I spent at immigration offices or at the SS office or even at another city trying to get my visa status corrected. Constant threats from my program secretary in ICU warning me I needed to get my visa corrected . Finally corrected it at the the end of the ICU month by then my senior was pissed off to complain to my attendings about my delayed notes and bang I am on probation and residency extended 2 months.

Anyway I worked hard came in every day at 5 am and left at 9 or 10 pm. Totally aced in-service . Got great evaluations especially from PD who had placed me on probation and who was now GME chief. In 3rd year my PD wrote to ACGME shortened my 3rd year to 10 months to compensate for the 2 months I had to repeat in 1st year and I graduated on time. They also gave me a great letter explaining my probation in very nice terms I could almost tempted to use it in place of a LOR, looks so nice. And ironically 3 AMGs were fired from my program during my residency.

But I still have PTSD from it all. And my program doesn't hire people from my country anymore as they think they will not get a visa on time .

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

My first 2 months on residency were an absolute nightmare. I am an IMG and had no practical experience or US clinical experience prior to coming here. On top of that my visa / residency start was delayed 2 months (thanks to Homeland Security/USCIS) and my residency was almost cancelled before I even started. On top of it when I got here the immigration officer at the airport logged me in on a visitor visa rather than a work visa meaning I was unable to apply for SSI card meaning I couldn't get paid in residency or get a credit card or a drivers license or even be covered by malpractice insurance. My 2nd month was in ICU and I remember 1/2 the month I spent at immigration offices or at the SS office or even at another city trying to get my visa status corrected. Constant threats from my program secretary in ICU warning me I needed to get my visa corrected . Finally corrected it at the the end of the ICU month by then my senior was pissed off to complain to my attendings about my delayed notes and bang I am on probation and residency extended 2 months.

Anyway I worked hard came in every day at 5 am and left at 9 or 10 pm. Totally aced in-service . Got great evaluations especially from PD who had placed me on probation and who was now GME chief. In 3rd year my PD wrote to ACGME shortened my 3rd year to 10 months to compensate for the 2 months I had to repeat in 1st year and I graduated on time. They also gave me a great letter explaining my probation in very nice terms I could almost tempted to use it in place of a LOR, looks so nice. And ironically 3 AMGs were fired from my program during my residency.

But I still have PTSD from it all. And my program doesn't hire people from my country anymore as they think they will not get a visa on time .

IMHO sounds like a perfect example of your program doing right by you.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

IMHO sounds like a perfect example of your program doing right by you.

No kidding. Starting 2 months late, being gone during an ICU month... they were quite tolerant seems to me

 

[Nephro critical care]

Yes , I think my program was very fair to me. They even figured out independently I was depressed from all the reverses and counselled me which helped me tremendously as I had no family or friends in the US at that time. Got me a mentor who was from my background. But showing that you have a hardworking and willing to learn attitude helps. Those 3 AMGs all had a "me versus them " attitude with the program which never helps.

The point is that sometimes probation can be for reasons entirely unconnected to competency, attitude or hard work i.e pure bad luck.

 

[dorothyntoto]

So what can a resident do if they are fired? Besides suing the program, which won't get your job, back and even if it did it would suck a thousand times more.
Is it possible to recover from this? I am wondering because a senior of mine was terminated this week, and was disliked by the PD and his wife. Not sure about all the ins and outs and how much was her fault versus them hating her. The whole residency felt she was treated unfairly by them, so it wasn't her imagination. Her advisor recently quit and basically as soon as he did, they fired her.

 

[QofQuimica]

So what can a resident do if they are fired? Besides suing the program, which won't get your job, back and even if it did it would suck a thousand times more.
Is it possible to recover from this? I am wondering because a senior of mine was terminated this week, and was disliked by the PD and his wife. Not sure about all the ins and outs and how much was her fault versus them hating her. The whole residency felt she was treated unfairly by them, so it wasn't her imagination. Her advisor recently quit and basically as soon as he did, they fired her.

If I can give a piece of very kindly meant advice, you and the rest of "the whole residency" should mind your own business. Seriously. There is undoubtedly more to this story than you know, and your focus should be on doing well in the program yourselves rather than on getting involved with what other people are or are not doing when it doesn't directly concern you.

Since you probably aren't going to take my advice, then you should tell your friend to start by talking to her advisor (or another sympathetic faculty member) regarding options. She won't be able to get another residency position elsewhere without support from faculty (and the PD) at your current program. So she should start there, by attempting to find and drum up that support.

 

[Crayola227]

Does anyone know a single resident who was terminated and actually insight to their shortcomings, or took any responsibility?

I don't

I know several

 

[LutGholein]

NOT SURPERISING TO WATCH ALLLLL THE RACIST COMMENTS HERE

What race is being commented on?

The FMG/IMG race clearly. Check your AMG privilege!

 

[Shinken]

These threads are always amusing.

As other posters already noted, these stories are always one-sided and always seem to involve a resident that was great, with great rotation evals, who all of a sudden and without any warning whatsoever were served with a non-renewal of contract or suddenly dismissed for no apparent reason other than the PD was malignant. Once we find out the rest of the story, it becomes obvious why the resident was terminated, and we find out also that all the proper steps were taken by the PD.

 

[Lessisless]

I've not been in this situation but my buddy has. If you're just on probation, your best bet is to go to your PD's office and set out a concrete and measurable plan on how you can fix any shortcomings that are perceived. You can disagree with them but you need to come up with a plan of action that is clear for addressing this - whatever their concerns may be.

You can appeal a probation based on the fact that it doesn't outline your deficiencies or the ways to address the perceived deficiencies clearly. In an academic setting, you cannot be held accountable for coming up with your own remediation plan. None of this should be a guessing game; if it is, your PD isn't doing his/her job.

The issues brought to your attention need to be clearly delineated. Similarly, there needs to be a clear outline with checkpoints allowing you to gauge your own progress in addressing the alleged deficiencies.

When a program director tells you that you have a "communication" problem, then asks you to fix it, it is in essence tantamount to telling a patient he has cancer, then walking out the door assuming he is going to come up with a plan to treat the cancer by himself.

Make sure to put your PD's feet to the fire. If he says you have a deficiency, force him to lay it out on paper with ways to address it. You may be surprised to note that the alleged deficiency suddenly ceases to be an issue.

 

[Shinken]

Make sure to put your PD's feet to the fire. If he says you have a deficiency, force him to lay it out on paper with ways to address it. You may be surprised to note that the alleged deficiency suddenly ceases to be an issue.

Actually I don't think there's a need to "force" the PD to lay it out on paper with ways to address it. This is standard procedure for any residency program that places a resident on probation.

The PD can't casually tell the resident he's on probation. They need to meet, discuss this (sometimes with a third party present), and the PD presents the resident with a document listing the deficiencies with an action plan (and what happens after X amount of time if the deficiency is not corrected). This document is prepared in advance of the meeting with the resident. The resident then signs this document in the presence of the PD and the witness, if present. This is how we do it in our program. Any PD that does not create a paper trail is not doing his/her job properly.

 

[gutonc]

This troll thread has more than run it's course. Closing.