Has the sentiment between 4-year and 6-year OMFS residencies changed in recent years?

[Roy Williams]

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Reading lots of old threads and remembering things I've been told in the past, everything seems to point to there being no difference between going to a 4 year program and 6 year program. However, speaking with faculty at my school and other practicing oral surgeons, the general consensus seems to be that if you are planning on going into OMFS, going to a 6 year program and getting an MD seems to be the better route and is more promising for the future of your career.

Assuming I wouldn't want to work in academics, is this still the case?

Thoughts?

 

[Likkriue]

I would love to know as well.

 

[321931]

Reading lots of old threads and remembering things I've been told in the past, everything seems to point to there being no difference between going to a 4 year program and 6 year program. However, speaking with faculty at my school and other practicing oral surgeons, the general consensus seems to be that if you are planning on going into OMFS, going to a 6 year program and getting an MD seems to be the better route and is more promising for the future of your career.

Assuming I wouldn't want to work in academics, is this still the case?

Thoughts?

Personally, as a referring GP, I don't really care behind the credentials as long as they do a good job with my patients. For anyone to achieve an OMFS degree, they are all competent in my opinion.

That being said, I can "see" how an MD behind the name could be used for extra marketing, academia.

But for the most part, most of my patient's never really noticed that. They just say that OS guy was great and took out my tooth in 5 minutes.

 

[GoldenDomer11]

Our program head is of course biased but he really pushes for us to apply to 6-years. I think the main argument is that MDs have more hospital privileges in most states. So unless you just want to be doing implants and exos, 6 year is probably a better bet.

 

[sbdento]

Attend a dual degreee program if you’d like to pursue a fellowship or academia otherwise it doesn’t really matter.

 

[Roy Williams]

Attend a dual degreee program if you’d like to pursue a fellowship or academia otherwise it doesn’t really matter.

Can orthognathic, clefts, trauma, etc. still be done without a fellowship?

 

[Eli Manning]

Our program head is of course biased but he really pushes for us to apply to 6-years. I think the main argument is that MDs have more hospital privileges in most states. So unless you just want to be doing implants and exos, 6 year is probably a better bet.

Not true. I’d venture to bet you’re still in dental school. Or maybe just got accepted?

 

[Roy Williams]

Not true. I’d venture to bet you’re still in dental school. Or maybe just got accepted?

Would you mind commenting on the average scope of a practicing OMFS in private practice from one that went to a four year program?

 

[vellnueve]

Can orthognathic, clefts, trauma, etc. still be done without a fellowship?

Of course.

More research you should do.

 

[Roy Williams]

Of course.

More research you should do.

I mean I know it can be done. But are most private practice surgeons doing this or are they mainly doing dentoalveolar?

 

[sgv]

A 6 year OMFS will tell you to do a 6 year. A 4 year OMFS will tell you do a 4 year. You will find this to be universally true if you extern around the country.

I mean I know it can be done. But are most private practice surgeons doing this or are they mainly doing dentoalveolar?

You'd have to gauge their motive. If they really enjoy practicing full scope and are comfortable practicing full scope, most will practice full scope even if it means they're making less money. If they're trying to make as much money as possible, then it's T+T all the way to the bank. Some are in between and keep the cool cases to minimum just as a hobby. Honestly, I think if this keeps up, OMFS as a profession will eventually be the same as that in Europe where oral surgeons do T+T and maxillofacial surgeons go to the OR. You can play with labels and semantics all you want but effectively a dual degree limiting his/her scope to T+T would essentially be equivalent to an oral surgeon in Europe and a single degree practicing full scope would be equivalent to a maxillofacial surgeon in Europe. We would have effectively divided our profession into two and the important question would no longer be DDS vs DDS, MD, rather it would be oral surgeon vs. maxillofacial surgeon. If that's not concerning to you, it should be because honestly, you don't need this rigorous of a training to just place implants and take out thirds. We would just be five months of anesthesia training away from being *barf* periodontists.

It's my opinion that this existential question of to be an MD or not to be an MD is so hotly debated and confusing because of the aforementioned self-imposed limitation of scope. The whole integrated MD program came about during OMFS heyday where the pioneers were gaining ground in the hospital and the OR, breaking ground in trauma management and orthognathic surgery and applying principles gained during general surgery training that an MD degree became very much relevant in the management of patient care in the OR/hospital setting. If we limit our scope to outpatient thirds and implants, it's of no wonder that people begin to question the utility of the MD education today.

I would view the MD for what it is and that is formal standardized medical education. If you want to go for it, go for it as it guarantees fellowship programs an expected level of medical knowledge from you. But it does not necessarily mean it will provide you more or less money. At the very least for the continued relevancy of this specialty in the hospital, acquire hospital privileges, take call, and practice as broad a scope as comfortable regardless of whether you're single or dual degree.

 

[BluntForceTrauma]

I'm still only a D1, but from the OS that I've met, both 4-year and 6-year, there is one common thread: You get the MD because your ego requires it.

Whether this is true or not idk, I admittedly have limited experience/knowledge here, but I do know both can do the same procedures and neither are locked in to one thing or the other.

I know an MD I used to work with who only did extractions, with the occasional implant. He made bank. I know another MD who did orthognathic surgery every Tuesday and Thursday and did very well. I know a 4-year who does orthognathic once a week and EXT mornings of three other days a week.

TL;DR doesn't matter except to the person getting the certification

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[Roy Williams]

I'm still only a D1, but from the OS that I've met, both 4-year and 6-year, there is one common thread: You get the MD because your ego requires it.

Whether this is true or not idk, I admittedly have limited experience/knowledge here, but I do know both can do the same procedures and neither are locked in to one thing or the other.

I know an MD I used to work with who only did extractions, with the occasional implant. He made bank. I know another MD who did orthognathic surgery every Tuesday and Thursday and did very well. I know a 4-year who does orthognathic once a week and EXT mornings of three other days a week.

TL;DR doesn't matter except to the person getting the certification

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Yeah I feel you. I just didn't know if the field was headed in a new direction in the near future or if things were staying similar to how they have been the past 10-15 years.

 

[Eli Manning]

Would you mind commenting on the average scope of a practicing OMFS in private practice from one that went to a four year program?

The money is made doing 3rd molars, implants, ect. Someone who went the 6 year-MD route may have a fancy MD behind their name but that doesn't mean they are going to go do anything any different than the 4 year guy when they get out and go into private practice. They will do the same procedures that make the money (3rds and implants). Additionally, if you work in private practice then you are responsible for running the business and making it successful. And if you know anything even slightly about the business world then you should know that you can't keep the lights on and your employees paid without one small thing (money). You can have 15 letters behind your name and have done 12 fellowships but the result will be the same if you go into private practice... you have to make money and run a successful business or you won't last, you won't keep employees, and you wont be able to put food on the table.

So to answer your question.. the scope of practice is dependent on a few things and 1 is where you trained. If you do a 6 year but only did 1 TMJ surgery the time you were there then you're probably not going to do TMJ surgery in private practice, regardless of your fancy MD degree. There are a lot of really good 4 year programs and they prepare you well to do full scope OMFS, so having an MD won't make you a better surgeon necessarily. The other thing is money. And you're not going to do a ton of "cool" and "full scope" procedures if they don't pay you. And that's bc of what I mentioned above.

So it really doesn't matter about having an MD degree. General dentists don't care that you spent X amount of months delivering babies on your OB/GYN rotation. They also don't care about the fact that you assisted on 15 lap choles on your surgery rotation (most dentists don't even know what that is!). Your referral base (general dentists) only care that you did a good job with their patient's wisdom teeth or implant and that you helped bail them out when they sent you something they didn't know how to do.
When you're in private practice you will do the procedures you learned to do (so go to a good program) and you will have to make money doing it so you don't end up on the streets begging for loose change. So that means swallowing your pride, forgetting about the neck dissection or the frontal sinus repair you did in residency, and start shucking wizzies and slamming implants like the dentist that you are!!

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

So that means swallowing your pride, forgetting about the neck dissection or the frontal sinus repair you did in residency, and start shucking wizzies and slamming implants like the dentist that you are!!

Might as well just become a periodontist and be done in 3 years if that’s your end game. Right?

Big Hoss

 

[321931]

The money is made doing 3rd molars, implants, ect. Someone who went the 6 year-MD route may have a fancy MD behind their name but that doesn't mean they are going to go do anything any different than the 4 year guy when they get out and go into private practice. They will do the same procedures that make the money (3rds and implants). Additionally, if you work in private practice then you are responsible for running the business and making it successful. And if you know anything even slightly about the business world then you should know that you can't keep the lights on and your employees paid without one small thing (money). You can have 15 letters behind your name and have done 12 fellowships but the result will be the same if you go into private practice... you have to make money and run a successful business or you won't last, you won't keep employees, and you wont be able to put food on the table.

So to answer your question.. the scope of practice is dependent on a few things and 1 is where you trained. If you do a 6 year but only did 1 TMJ surgery the time you were there then you're probably not going to do TMJ surgery in private practice, regardless of your fancy MD degree. There are a lot of really good 4 year programs and they prepare you well to do full scope OMFS, so having an MD won't make you a better surgeon necessarily. The other thing is money. And you're not going to do a ton of "cool" and "full scope" procedures if they don't pay you. And that's bc of what I mentioned above.

So it really doesn't matter about having an MD degree. General dentists don't care that you spent X amount of months delivering babies on your OB/GYN rotation. They also don't care about the fact that you assisted on 15 lap choles on your surgery rotation (most dentists don't even know what that is!). Your referral base (general dentists) only care that you did a good job with their patient's wisdom teeth or implant and that you helped bail them out when they sent you something they didn't know how to do.
When you're in private practice you will do the procedures you learned to do (so go to a good program) and you will have to make money doing it so you don't end up on the streets begging for loose change. So that means swallowing your pride, forgetting about the neck dissection or the frontal sinus repair you did in residency, and start shucking wizzies and slamming implants like the dentist that you are!!

Good summary. I think if one wanted to do more facial reconstruction that kind of thing then ent/md would be up their alley. Most of the omfs I work with stick to private practice and just do iv sedation/wizzies/ext and are paid well for it. If I have a case that requires hospital surgery kind of thing, they and I refer to the dental school where residents take care of it.

 

[Muggsy Bogues]

Doesn’t matter if you’re in private practice. Your referrals dictate the vast majority of your practice and dentists are your referral base so obviously dentoalveolar will be the largest component of your practice. Anything beyond that scope depends mostly on one’s willingness to incoporate poorly reimbursed procedures, patients who require significant chair time, or time away from your office, all of which come at the expense of the well compensated, less stressful, well oiled dentoalveolar practice. Beyond that, I would say scope of residency matters more than degrees conferred. Some programs obviously prepare surgeons to better handle pathology, trauma, cosmetics, etc etc. My experience is that, in general, six year programs incorporate more of these things into their programs (except for trauma, which is pretty universal) but that’s not a hard and fast rule. And I would say that, in general, “scope of training” has much less of an influence on a private practice than the desire to have a “well compensated, less stressful, well oiled” practice.

As far as academics are concerned, I’m sure there are many, many more OMFS academicians without MDs that wish they had MDs than the opposite case. And, with little exception, an MD is almost requisite to a fellowship-trained scope of practice, in academics or otherwise.

With all of that said, I would argue that the simplest answer to all of this is, regardless of your interest in an OMFS private practice or academic life, train at the program that offers you the broadest scope. It’s much easier to limit your scope than it is to expand it.

 

[PhansterZ]

Very hard to explain to my parents why I’m doing the 6-year MD route vs the 4-year certificate.

“So you’re spending 2 extra years to do the MD so you can make more money?”
-No mom, the medical procedures do not pay as well as the dental procedures, specifically implants and wisdom teeth extractions. But the MD will help me get into a craniofacial fellowship.

“Oh, you must get paid well with the craniofacial procedures?”
-Actually, it’s more like a hobby. You don’t get paid much doing craniofacial. The market is very tough to penetrate with OMFS since the plastics have a very good hold on it. Also, the US has the most craniofacial surgeons in the world combined with the lowest incidence of kids with craniofacial deformities. Most of my experience would be in doing mission trips in third world countries, which will cost me time and money from my regular job.

“So you’re going to 3-4 years of extra schooling/training to make less money”
- It doesn’t matter what you do as an oral surgeon, you make enough to be extremely comfortable, but pulling teeth and placing implants will be so monotonous that you want to have cool hobbies like fixing cleft lip and palate. But yeah, I’m doing it so I can make less money if money was the only factor.

 

[Van Der Woude]

Very hard to explain to my parents why I’m doing the 6-year MD route vs the 4-year certificate.

“So you’re spending 2 extra years to do the MD so you can make more money?”
-No mom, the medical procedures do not pay as well as the dental procedures, specifically implants and wisdom teeth extractions. But the MD will help me get into a craniofacial fellowship.

“Oh, you must get paid well with the craniofacial procedures?”
-Actually, it’s more like a hobby. You don’t get paid much doing craniofacial. The market is very tough to penetrate with OMFS since the plastics have a very good hold on it. Also, the US has the most craniofacial surgeons in the world combined with the lowest incidence of kids with craniofacial deformities. Most of my experience would be in doing mission trips in third world countries, which will cost me time and money from my regular job.

“So you’re going to 3-4 years of extra schooling/training to make less money”
- It doesn’t matter what you do as an oral surgeon, you make enough to be extremely comfortable, but pulling teeth and placing implants will be so monotonous that you want to have cool hobbies like fixing cleft lip and palate. But yeah, I’m doing it so I can make less money if money was the only factor.

What about the chicks, power, and chicks though?! Please tell me Dr. Cox is at least somewhat rooted into reality. /s

 

[Localnative]

I'm still only a D1, but from the OS that I've met, both 4-year and 6-year, there is one common thread: You get the MD because your ego requires it.

Whether this is true or not idk, I admittedly have limited experience/knowledge here, but I do know both can do the same procedures and neither are locked in to one thing or the other.

I know an MD I used to work with who only did extractions, with the occasional implant. He made bank. I know another MD who did orthognathic surgery every Tuesday and Thursday and did very well. I know a 4-year who does orthognathic once a week and EXT mornings of three other days a week.

TL;DR doesn't matter except to the person getting the certification

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Nah.

Anyhow, I've been practicing for several years. I have an MD because the program I went to was a 6 yr and it was a requirement. Not the other way around. Went to my program because I wanted to be comfortable doing A to Z without necessarily pursuing a fellowship afterward. After my first few years of private practice during which I took call at several hospitals and did it all, I got burned out on the really low reimbursements and the potential liability. Very little ROI. Now, I do the same thing 4 yr guys do. Come to think of it, back then I also did the same thing the local 4 yr guys did. Ultimately, it makes no difference whatsoever. Unless of course you are thinking oncology or being SuperOMS. Actually I remember an onc fellow or two that graduated from my program who were single degree. And there are a bunch of practicing/academic guys that are FACS. So maybe it makes no difference whatsoever.

Just do your due diligence, figure out what your MO is, and get on with it. Life's too short for this sort of mental masturbation.

 

[GoldenDomer11]

Not true. I’d venture to bet you’re still in dental school. Or maybe just got accepted?

True. I am just a D2. But that's mostly what I've gleaned from reading on here and from talking to/shadowing oral surgeons in private practice. However, the guy I shadowed who did exos/implants all day (single degree grad), also worked call every few weeks even though he's working in a small city. I remember him telling me he helped fix some old lady's face (she had fallen on it earlier that week) at the OR.

 

[caffeine jitters]

The discussion y’all had about the relevance of an MD in academia seemed pretty 50/50. On the other hand, it appears an MD confers benefits associated with hospital privileges and fellowship training.

Now, I fully understand I am putting the cart before the horse because I will only be starting Dental School this fall, but academic oral surgery sounds very rewarding. I just have some concerns about military residencies:

6-year programs are currently not authorized by the Navy. I’m afraid a single degree residency (which the Navy does authorize) might limit my ability to apply for fellowship training and faculty positions.

Do any of you know of an MD path after completing a single degree oral surgery residency? Other than 4 years of medical school, of course... Am I crazy for even asking this?​

The Navy offers fellowship traing of their own - which is awesome. However, it incurs Active Duty Obligations (ADO) that are served consecutively to the ADO incured by dental school/residency. How reasonable would it be to apply for a civilian fellowship after a 4 year gap between residency and the fellowship?​

Apologies for the long-winded post. Any help is greatly appreciated.

 

[deleted923283]

Does anyone know a 4-year who regret the decision, instead wishing they did 6?

The one OS I know personally said she originally planned to do the 6-year, ended up doing a single degree program - but looking back, she doesn't see how it would have changed anything in her career.

 

[vellnueve]

The discussion y’all had about the relevance of an MD in academia seemed pretty 50/50. On the other hand, it appears an MD confers benefits associated with hospital privileges and fellowship training.

Now, I fully understand I am putting the cart before the horse because I will only be starting Dental School this fall, but academic oral surgery sounds very rewarding. I just have some concerns about military residencies:

6-year programs are currently not authorized by the Navy. I’m afraid a single degree residency (which the Navy does authorize) might limit my ability to apply for fellowship training and faculty positions.

Do any of you know of an MD path after completing a single degree oral surgery residency? Other than 4 years of medical school, of course... Am I crazy for even asking this?​

The Navy offers fellowship traing of their own - which is awesome. However, it incurs Active Duty Obligations (ADO) that are served consecutively to the ADO incured by dental school/residency. How reasonable would it be to apply for a civilian fellowship after a 4 year gap between residency and the fellowship?​

Apologies for the long-winded post. Any help is greatly appreciated.

The military has no issues getting people into fellowship. And there are plenty of 4-year fellowship-trained surgeons out there.

There is no generic MD path that I know of for someone to get an MD.

Going for fellowship after 4 years in practice would probably be much more difficult given the number of spots and the number of highly qualified applicants right out of residency.

 

[vellnueve]

Does anyone a 4-year who regret the decision, instead wishing they did 6?

The one OS I know personally said she originally planned to do the 6-year, ended up doing a single degree program - but looking back, she doesn't see how it would have changed anything in her career.

I suspect you'll find more 6 year people saying they wish they'd done the 4 than the other way around. Probably not a ton, but I doubt there's many if any 4 years out there who wish they'd done a 6 year.

 

[shaomfs]

It's a little disheartening that the discussion revolves purely around $ and reimbursements, I don't think you can put a price on knowledge- it is never wasted, and inevitably it'll help you one day when you don't expect it. One of the residents at Case explained it very well to me- he said "as an intern I would put postop patients on IV fluids and it always worked out fine.. then in medical school I had 7 dedicated lectures on fluid management and then I began to have a clue about what I was doing."

I felt the same way during my intern year (and my 4th year chiefs were blindly doing most of what they did too I might add)

You can throw any intelligent person into a dental clinic and they'll figure out how to place composites and prep crowns just as good if not better in most cases than their educated counterparts. However, you don't know what you don't know and when **** hits the fan, deeper understanding is critical. I don't think it's acceptable to be referring anything that gets slightly complicated to ENT (as I've seen with a lot of OMFS programs) and I also think MDs will be the ones pushing the boundaries of our specialty more and more in coming years, as you can see with guys like GE Ghali.

Regarding reimbursements- once upon a time ENT would absolutely destroy financially with tonsillectomies then one day insurance said sorry we aren't paying any more. They got hit, HARD. If we begin losing 3rd molars our scope and training has to be broad enough to accommodate such losses. Also, the anesthesia pushback for non-MDs. I'm not saying it'll happen but it's worthy of consideration.

 

[PhansterZ]

Does anyone a 4-year who regret the decision, instead wishing they did 6?

The one OS I know personally said she originally planned to do the 6-year, ended up doing a single degree program - but looking back, she doesn't see how it would have changed anything in her career.

The grass is always greener on the other side. During residency, the 6-year guys will sometimes moan about not starting their career 2 years earlier, especially in programs that have both 4 and 6-year tracks. You see a resident come in 2 years after you, but then graduate at the same time. But after they are done, they are all glad they did the MD.

There are some pretty big names that did the MD after they finished their residencies, including the Chairs at LSU-Shreveport and Knoxville, and the program directors at Parkland and NYU, among many others. It's a very powerful degree and it's another card you can play hospital politics with.

But doing the MD after finishing residency is a much tougher task. Cincinnati and VCU OMFS programs have that option, and not many people take it up. You would do the last 2 years of med school and then 1 year of an ACGME accredited residency program, such as surgery or anesthesia.

 

[vellnueve]

It's a little disheartening that the discussion revolves purely around $ and reimbursements, I don't think you can put a price on knowledge- it is never wasted, and inevitably it'll help you one day when you don't expect it. One of the residents at Case explained it very well to me- he said "as an intern I would put postop patients on IV fluids and it always worked out fine.. then in medical school I had 7 dedicated lectures on fluid management and then I began to have a clue about what I was doing."

I felt the same way during my intern year (and my 4th year chiefs were blindly doing most of what they did too I might add)

You can throw any intelligent person into a dental clinic and they'll figure out how to place composites and prep crowns just as good if not better in most cases than their educated counterparts. However, you don't know what you don't know and when **** hits the fan, deeper understanding is critical. I don't think it's acceptable to be referring anything that gets slightly complicated to ENT (as I've seen with a lot of OMFS programs) and I also think MDs will be the ones pushing the boundaries of our specialty more and more in coming years, as you can see with guys like GE Ghali.

Regarding reimbursements- once upon a time ENT would absolutely destroy financially with tonsillectomies then one day insurance said sorry we aren't paying any more. They got hit, HARD. If we begin losing 3rd molars our scope and training has to be broad enough to accommodate such losses. Also, the anesthesia pushback for non-MDs. I'm not saying it'll happen but it's worthy of consideration.

You should probably start an actual residency before you try lecturing people.

It’s ironic that you mentioned not knowing what you don’t know...

 

[jiggapigga2]

I have never come across a graduate of a 6 year program who has regretted the MD.

I often come across a 4 year graduate, telling me how they "would have " done the MD, or that there is no difference.

Being in the "academic" world, and mingling with the community guys, there IS a difference between the two.

In the end, you need to ask yourself whether or not you want the additional education that comes with a MEDICAL Degree, and whether or not you care about leveling the playing field when you enter the hospital arena.

If you have it in you , i would do the 6 year . you won't regret it.
if you don't care - then do the 4 year , but don't expect everyone to think of your training as equivalent.

 

[jiggapigga2]

The military has no issues getting people into fellowship. And there are plenty of 4-year fellowship-trained surgeons out there.

There is no generic MD path that I know of for someone to get an MD.

Going for fellowship after 4 years in practice would probably be much more difficult given the number of spots and the number of highly qualified applicants right out of residency.

That is because they are all funded.. who wouldn't want to take a person who is free???

 

[deleted923283]

In the end, you need to ask yourself whether or not you want the additional education that comes with a MEDICAL Degree, and whether or not you care about leveling the playing field when you enter the hospital arena.

I've seen this alluded to before, but I don't quite understand. What exactly is the playing field in the hospital? Are you talking about negotiations between doctor and hospital, or hierarchy among doctors?

 

[vellnueve]

I've seen this alluded to before, but I don't quite understand. What exactly is the playing field in the hospital? Are you talking about negotiations between doctor and hospital, or hierarchy among doctors?

He’s trying to argue that you have more difficulty getting hospital privileges with a single degree.

Even though DDSs/DMDs built the OMS hospital model, and continue to work in that role in countless hospitals across the country.

 

[Localnative]

He’s trying to argue that you have more difficulty getting hospital privileges with a single degree.

Even though DDSs/DMDs built the OMS hospital model, and continue to work in that role in countless hospitals across the country.

No more difficult than a dual degree guy getting privileges. I practice in the southeast. Most of the local guys are single degree, bit older and have been on staff at the local hospitals for at least a few decades. FACS now recognizes single degree guys. Just another subspecialty at most of the hospitals here.

 

[GimmeTheScalpel]

I have never come across a graduate of a 6 year program who has regretted the MD.

I often come across a 4 year graduate, telling me how they "would have " done the MD, or that there is no difference.

Being in the "academic" world, and mingling with the community guys, there IS a difference between the two.

In the end, you need to ask yourself whether or not you want the additional education that comes with a MEDICAL Degree, and whether or not you care about leveling the playing field when you enter the hospital arena.

If you have it in you , i would do the 6 year . you won't regret it.
if you don't care - then do the 4 year , but don't expect everyone to think of your training as equivalent.

Many MDs do not see you as their equivalent regardless. There will always be those who say that taking the 6 year track is a shortcut to the MD since many programs will grant the degree after around 24 months. Lots of physicians still view OMS’s as dentists first and foremost unfortunately. Also, some of the most prominent academicians are single degree holders: Drs. Dodson, Troulis, Le to name a few.

 

[vellnueve]

No more difficult than a dual degree guy getting privileges. I practice in the southeast. Most of the local guys are single degree, bit older and have been on staff at the local hospitals for at least a few decades. FACS now recognizes single degree guys. Just another subspecialty at most of the hospitals here.

I really don't think most hospitals or physicians care one way or the other. A board-certified OMS is a board-certified OMS.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Many MDs do not see you as their equivalent regardless.

This a big concern for you?

Big Hoss

 

[GimmeTheScalpel]

This a big concern for you?

Big Hoss

No I don’t think that future candidates should worry about it honestly. No reason to feel the need to validate one’s qualifications.

 

[PhansterZ]

Many MDs do not see you as their equivalent regardless.

Even the Caribbean MDs? What do the DOs think of us?

 

[GimmeTheScalpel]

Even the Caribbean MDs? What do the DOs think of us?

It’s wrong to try to establish some sort of hierarchy. There’s no need for an OMS to “prove themself” to other providers. There will always be physicians that think less of OMS’s regardless of qualifications. It’s a sad truth but it shouldn’t matter one bit.

 

[PhansterZ]

It’s wrong to try to establish some sort of hierarchy. There’s no need for an OMS to “prove themself” to other providers. There will always be physicians that think less of OMS’s regardless of qualifications. It’s a sad truth but it shouldn’t matter one bit.

Not trying to argue with you. Just be careful about painting broad strokes.

 

[DentistScientist]

Many MDs do not see you as their equivalent regardless. There will always be those who say that taking the 6 year track is a shortcut to the MD since many programs will grant the degree after around 24 months. Lots of physicians still view OMS’s as dentists first and foremost unfortunately. Also, some of the most prominent academicians are single degree holders: Drs. Dodson, Troulis, Le to name a few.

Dr. Le’s work was amazing. At the AADR meeting, I saw her student’s research project on taste bud cell regeneration and i was asking a lot of questions.

Too bad that it’s hard to find dentist/oral surgeon scientists capable of mentoring PhD students at my school....


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[doctor201026]

That is so true! Most of these faculties are just hungry for papers and making names for themselves but they actually do not know anything about research and science. What a shame!

 

[DentistScientist]

That is so true! Most of these faculties are just hungry for papers and making names for themselves but they actually do not know anything about research and science. What a shame!

I don’t think that’s true. I met several academic oral surgeons at the AADR meeting and learned that it’s extremely difficult for faculty members to generate revenue for their department by just doing research. One of them told me that he is not contributing to the department enough and he could only do research because his department is supportive of his research work.

One must have his or her own NIH RO3 or RO1 grant and also be able to treat patients.


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[ProspectivePostPreDent]

Many MDs do not see you as their equivalent regardless. There will always be those who say that taking the 6 year track is a shortcut to the MD since many programs will grant the degree after around 24 months. Lots of physicians still view OMS’s as dentists first and foremost unfortunately. Also, some of the most prominent academicians are single degree holders: Drs. Dodson, Troulis, Le to name a few.

I too, as a member of the .1% working in a field where people trust me to cut them open to repair their bodies, like to spend my spare time wondering if other people think I'm smart enough.


Dear MD, do u think I'm kool: check [yes] [no]
-DMD

 

[Localnative]

Many MDs do not see you as their equivalent regardless. There will always be those who say that taking the 6 year track is a shortcut to the MD since many programs will grant the degree after around 24 months. Lots of physicians still view OMS’s as dentists first and foremost unfortunately. Also, some of the most prominent academicians are single degree holders: Drs. Dodson, Troulis, Le to name a few.

1. wife happy - check
2. kids happy - check
3. work steady - check
4. live in the greatest country in the world - check
5. worry about MD colleagues marginalizing myself and my brethren - deez nuts.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

4. live in the greatest country in the world - check

Big Hoss

 

[jiggapigga2]

He’s trying to argue that you have more difficulty getting hospital privileges with a single degree.

Even though DDSs/DMDs built the OMS hospital model, and continue to work in that role in countless hospitals across the country.

When it comes to credentialing, the committee will likely scrutinize you alittle more if you are requesting "broad " scope procedures and you are a single degree...THis will always be the case - only now, residency training provides people with a respectable case log to obtain the desired procedures.. - although there are still alot of residency programs that do not offer much in experience if you are looking for "broad scope"

Ultimately, if you are joe dentist, walking into an established medical center asking to do a rhinoplasty - dick the doctor will likely put you under a may try to block you citing that you are a dentist. if you are joe the dentist doctor , likely they will fling some dumb joke at you and still look at your case log, but feel more obligated to give you the privileges to do your ****.

Again, - for bread and butter OMS stuff - single vs dual doesn't matter
for playing the academic hospital game - politics - opportunities - the dual degree is the easier way to go.

Obviously, much respect to the single degree guy or girl who becomes a superstar and establishes themselves - but nowadays - new generation oms fellow**** trained people are dual degree goin off and establishing something.

again these are my 2 cents, and what i've observed thru out the 15 years in this profession.

 

[jiggapigga2]

Many MDs do not see you as their equivalent regardless. There will always be those who say that taking the 6 year track is a shortcut to the MD since many programs will grant the degree after around 24 months. Lots of physicians still view OMS’s as dentists first and foremost unfortunately. Also, some of the most prominent academicians are single degree holders: Drs. Dodson, Troulis, Le to name a few.

Yes, i agree. MD's in general do not see each other as equivalent - there will always be inequality within the profession - however, in the absolute sense, if you are a licensed MD, as they are, you still live on the same planet. If you are a DDS only, and visiting planet MD - sure they may make you feel comfortable, and give you a nice place to stay, even have you over for dinner. But you are still a guest who lives by rules defined by planet DDS, and in Planet DDS - they really don't know what the f you do..

I'd say aside from dentoalveolar - everything else OMS do - are more aligned with how things are run in Medicine - in terms of patient care, surgery.

 

[jiggapigga2]

Many MDs do not see you as their equivalent regardless. There will always be those who say that taking the 6 year track is a shortcut to the MD since many programs will grant the degree after around 24 months. Lots of physicians still view OMS’s as dentists first and foremost unfortunately. Also, some of the most prominent academicians are single degree holders: Drs. Dodson, Troulis, Le to name a few.

OH and regarding prominent academicians - that is relative.

 

[DentistScientist]

o.

but nowadays - new generation oms fellow**** trained people are dual degree goin off and establishing something.

again these are my 2 cents, and what i've observed thru out the 15 years in this profession.

What are these things? Are you referring to fellowship programs?