Medical Have 2 Infractions - Do I have a shot at medical school?

[Goro]

I have a slightly above average GPA (3.74) with a similar sGPA
I am pursuing an MS in Biotech, with a current GPA of 4.0
I have Nonmedical research experience ~110 Hours
I Have Shadowing experience ~ 160 Hours
I have Volunteer experience ~158 Hours
I have Community service experience ~ 35 Hours
I have not taken the MCAT yet


Unfortunately...

I have 1 academic integrity violation marked on my undergraduate career (During my sophomore year) (Caught using a phone during an exam, I got an F in the class, and I took re-took the class next semester)

And 1 other violation where I downloaded a TV show without the copyright (Junior year) (I was not informed that this was even on my record until recently, there was no hearing of formal "punishment" given out verbally or even in written form) (I found out because my undergrad university informed my graduate university via a dean letter)

Both infractions do not show on my transcript, but if a dean letter is requested by any school, both violations will be detailed on that

I was wondering what people thought in regards to whether or not I can still get into an MD/DO program, specifically what my chances were. (let's assume a 505 on my MCAT)

Any honest feedback will be greatly appreciated. I do understand that these infractions hurt my application to medical school

The problem you are facing is that while the phone violation is normally a trivial event, the fact that it occurred after you got caught and sanctioned for cheating telegraphs that you apparently believe the rules don't apply to you.

The phone cheating is a bigger issue even without the piracy violation. You knew what you were doing...and this kind of malice aforethought is something Adcoms have very little tolerance for.

I can't sugar coat this, as of right now, your medical career is over. If not actually over, then it's in a state of deep stasis. And rest assured that med schools do due diligence, and they will find out about your IAs, if you were foolish enough to not disclose them on your applications.

Yes, we understand the cheating doesn't define you as a person, but one mistake CAN keep you out of medical school.

And absent all of this, without an MCAT score, we can't do hypotheticals anyway.

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[TheBoneDoctah]

I am not sure what you mean "The problem you are facing is that while the phone violation is normally a trivial event, the fact that it occurred after you got caught and sanctioned for cheating telegraphs that you apparently believe the rules don't apply to you."

I am not sure what you mean by "the phone violation". The 2nd violation was not related to academics at all, I simply downloaded a TV show without the appropriate copyrights. The first violation involved my phone and I was found guilty of cheating after the hearing that was needed to be done, was done.

I am just trying to be clear is all, thank you for taking the time to write this post. What about Caribbean Medical Schools?

We really don’t recommend ever going to Caribbean as it ends poorly too much of the time to risk

 

[Goro]

I am not sure what you mean "The problem you are facing is that while the phone violation is normally a trivial event, the fact that it occurred after you got caught and sanctioned for cheating telegraphs that you apparently believe the rules don't apply to you."

I am not sure what you mean by "the phone violation". The 2nd violation was not related to academics at all, I simply downloaded a TV show without the appropriate copyrights. The first violation involved my phone and I was found guilty of cheating after the hearing that was needed to be done, was done.

I am just trying to be clear is all, thank you for taking the time to write this post. What about Caribbean Medical Schools?

You did two wrong things.

The first was was lethal by itself

The second one by itself was non-lethal.

Are you aware that such downloading is, in fact, illegal?

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

I am not sure what you mean "The problem you are facing is that while the phone violation is normally a trivial event, the fact that it occurred after you got caught and sanctioned for cheating telegraphs that you apparently believe the rules don't apply to you."

I am not sure what you mean by "the phone violation". The 2nd violation was not related to academics at all, I simply downloaded a TV show without the appropriate copyrights. The first violation involved my phone and I was found guilty of cheating after the hearing that was needed to be done, was done.

I am just trying to be clear is all, thank you for taking the time to write this post. What about Caribbean Medical Schools?

The cell phone incident is not gonna be good for ADCOM. It looks real bad as it’s literally you making a conscious decision to cheat and obviously calls your integrity into question which is HUGE as a physician. Your patients, staff, employer, and the public needs to be able to put their trust in you.

If I were sitting on the committee, the first thing I would think about is “well, we have candidate 1 who cheated and did on purpose, and we have candidates 2-10,000 who didn’t. Let’s go with one of the other 9,999.”

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

I understand, absolutely, what do you recommend I do now assuming I want to continue trying to pursue a career as a physician?

This is a personal decision YOU have to make with the information we have provided you. We are basically just telling you how ADCOM is going to react (since there are ADCOM on this site they kinda know). Is there a chance a school will take a chance with you? Yes, your chances aren't 0%.

Some people would say even if I have a 0.1% chance of getting accepted, I would go for it since it's all I want.
Others would say that it isn't worth the extra years in school, stress, etc to apply with that low of a chance and move on with life.
You need to figure out where you fall on that continuum. We can't tell you what you should do.

Keep in mind no one on this site is trying to be a jerk about this. We are just not going to sugar coat things cause that doesn't help you.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

I understand, thank you for. your time

This is why I had asked about Caribbean schools, the 4 best ones have 90%+ match rates for residencies, that is why I am confused when you say "end poorly"

Because they are shady and don't report the ACTUAL match rates, drop out rates, or board scores.

I will give you the quick and dirty. Caribbean schools are money mills. They take in close to 1000 students and then a fraction of those students are even "allowed" to take Step 1. They have to take a pre-test to make sure they can pass so the school doesn't look bad. After Step 1, you then have to figure out where you're going to rotate and set up your clinicals yourself. You are flying all over the US spending thousands of dollars and clinicals are crap (a lot of the time). For US schools, you have all your clinicals in one hospital usually (or close). For the Caribbean, sometimes you are going to a different state EVERY MONTH and having to figure out housing. If you made it through and finally are eligible to apply for the match, only about 1/4 of the students who START in the Caribbean actually match. So of 1000, only ~250 become doctors (and these are usually in FM/IM/peds).

Short story: I know multiple people in the Caribbean right now. One is gonna be screwed because they scored super low on Step. One other did very well and am curious to see how they do, but they are still only applying FM/IM with a 265+ Step. Another person I know went to "the best" Caribbean school and is now 550k in debt (4th year) which will accrue a ton of interest and will most likely be 650k-700k by the time they finish residency. Multiple people they knew were attacked (and even murdered) on the island. If you go to the Caribbean and don't score WELL on Step, you are basically screwed and will have 700k in debt and not have a job. Doesn't sound like something I want to invest my time/money in...

Does this mean that if you do go Caribbean you aren't going to match? No. But the chances are high and that's why I say it "ends poorly" much of the time.

Watch this video here for a good review. Like I said, the remarks in this video echo the other three people I know at these schools.

 

[Goro]

The point isn't that there are successful Carib grads. The point is how many additional obstacles to success you face by going to a Carib school.

The pool of US applicants from the Caribbean is viewed differently by Program Directors. The DDx for a Caribbean grad is pretty off-putting: bad judgment, bad advice, egotism, gullibility, overbearing parents, inability to delay gratification, IA's, legal problems, weak research skills, high risk behavior. This is not to say that all of them still have the quality that drew them into this situation. There is just no way to know which ones they are. Some PD's are in a position where they need to, or can afford to take risks too! So, some do get interviews.

Bad grades and scores are the least of the deficits from a PD's standpoint. A strong academic showing in a Caribbean medical school does not erase this stigma. It fact it increases the perception that the reason for the choice was on the above-mentioned list!

Just about everyone from a Caribbean school has one or more of these problems and PDs know it. That's why their grads are the last choice even with a high Step 1 score.

There was a time when folks whose only flaw was being a late bloomer went Carib, but those days are gone. There are a number of US med schools that will reward reinvention.

It's likely you'll be in the bottom half or two thirds of the class that gets dismissed before Step 1. The business plan of a Carib school depends on the majority of the class not needing to be supported in clinical rotations. They literally can't place all 250+ of the starting class at clinical sites (educational malpractice, really. If this happened at a US school, they be shut down by LCME or COCA, and sued.

The Carib (and other offshore) schools have very tenuous, very expensive, very controversial relationships with a very small number of US clinical sites. You may think you can just ask to do your clinical rotations at a site near home. Nope. You may think you don't have to worry about this stuff. Wrong.

And let's say you get through med school in the Carib and get what you need out of the various clinical rotation scenarios. Then you are in the match gamble. I don't need to say a word about this - you can find everything you need to know at nrmp.org.

You really need to talk to people who made it through Carib threshing machine into residency, and hear the story from them. How many people were in their class at the start, how many are in it now? How long did it take to get a residency, and how did they handle the gap year(s) and their student loans? How many residencies did they apply to, how many interviews did they get, and were any of the programs on their match list anything like what they wanted?

A little light reading:

The PD's guide tells you how how leery PDs are at even considering Carib grads:

https://mk0nrmp3oyqui6wqfm.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2020-PD-Survey-1.pdf



Million $ Mistake

"Why didn't I Match?"

The ugly truth about Caribbean medical schools | Pamela Wible MD

 

[Goro]

@lord999
@Mr.Smile12

Could you kindly comment?

These are two more Adcom members.

 

[Goro]

So far, this is the near identical mindsets of the Adcom members of SDN that I've asked:

Downloading a TV show might not be a deal breaker but using a phone to cheat on an exam and taking an F for the course would make me want to toss the application aside unless the infraction was 10 years ago and the applicant had been a model citizen. I'd recommend finding another career and coming back to medicine at age 30 if the itch is still there.

Sharoo, try to engage in lots of service to others less fortunate than yourself, and also obtain positions of responsibility.

 

[Goro]

The link does not work, it gives a 405 error

try this:

https://mk0nrmp3oyqui6wqfm.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2020-PD-Survey.pdf

 

[Goro]

This is a reply to both this post as well as your discussion of the Carib Schools

1) For the Carib schools, you are essentially saying that I have to be "the best of the best" in order to make it and eventually get matched?

2) In regard to both violations, what means/route/angle should I take with my university in an attempt to get either/any of those violations expunged?

1) Yes.
2) On applications you still have to report these, even in expunged. And don't think about trying ot hide it; my school has rejected applicants who got outed by LOR writers.

 

[Goro]

Can you please clarify what you mean here? Are you saying that students who apply/chose to go into these programs may/may not have these qualities, and this is how program directors for residencies see students who have an MD from a Caribbean school?

The pool of US applicants from the Caribbean is viewed differently by Program Directors. The DDx for a Caribbean grad is pretty off-putting: bad judgment, bad advice, egotism, gullibility, overbearing parents, inability to delay gratification, IA's, legal problems, weak research skills, high risk behavior. This is not to say that all of them still have the quality that drew them into this situation. There is just no way to know which ones they are. Some PD's are in a position where they need to, or can afford to take risks too! So, some do get interviews.

Bad grades and scores are the least of the deficits from a PD's standpoint. A strong academic showing in a Caribbean medical school does not erase this stigma. It fact it increases the perception that the reason for the choice was on the above-mentioned list!

Just about everyone from a Caribbean school has one or more of these problems and PDs know it. That's why their grads are the last choice even with a high Step 1 score.

 

[Goro]

Are you certain that I would still need to report it? If it is expunged, it is no longer on the "dean letter" that my undergrad would send to any/all medical schools, I understand the event still occurred, yet if the school doesn't report it, there is nothing for me to hide from a technical standpoint

Both primary and secondary apps have questions about IAs.

Read this:
Legal Matters: Institutional Action Basics • Student Doctor Network

especially the second paragraph.

Do you really want to risk going through medical school with this sword hanging over your head? If the school finds out about this, you can have an acceptance rescinded, or you could be expelled after matriculating.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

Are you certain that I would still need to report it? If it is expunged, it is no longer on the "dean letter" that my undergrad would send to any/all medical schools, I understand the event still occurred, yet if the school doesn't report it, there is nothing for me to hide from a technical standpoint

Don’t risk it. How would you feel going through all the work of medical school to be found out and then have it taken away from you? Do it right the first time.

 

[Goro]

Lastly, although this is something that was done in undergrad, would I need to report this when I apply for residency, after medical school?

Nope.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Disregarding the discussion on Caribbean programs. If you don't get our point by now... good luck to you.

When making some amends in being contrite, there are some things that are usually involved in the process of forgiveness:
1) Confession
2) Repentance
3) Accepting Consequences
4) Humble Reflection
5) Change in motivation and behavior

(I'm sure there are better models than these phases that I just described here.) I don't get where any of these phases are addressed in the description. Consequently I cannot comment more except to agree that without these elements, your potential application would be DOA at most schools.

Forgiveness does not mean begin completely absolved. Nor does it mean that you have "done your time" and all is wiped clean.

You are kicking ass in your MS Biotech program. I strongly suggest that you follow that path than torture yourself in trying to get into medical school at all costs and ultimately finding yourself in more misery.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

Let us say I choose the IMG route, I know they (Specifically the Caribbean) are usually more forgiving when it comes to admission into an MD program. I understand that IMG students are already at a disadvantage when applying for US residencies, but will these violations add onto the difficulties? I know you had said "no" already, but I just wanted to make sure we are on the same page

 

[Goro]

Let us say I choose the IMG route, I know they (Specifically the Caribbean) are usually more forgiving when it comes to admission into an MD program. I understand that IMG students are already at a disadvantage when applying for US residencies, but will these violations add onto the difficulties? I know you had said "no" already, but I just wanted to make sure we are on the same page

My answer is there's a reason why CARS is on the MCAT

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

No need for this, I am simply asking a question. Have a great day...I hope to one day prove you all wrong

What was the point of asking for advice if you are going to literally ignore all the advice?

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

I am not ignoring your advice sir, I am simply taking all things into consideration before moving forward. And I have done so respectfully, I should add.

That’s fair. Good luck!

 

[GoSpursGo]

So far, this is the near identical mindsets of the Adcom members of SDN that I've asked:

Downloading a TV show might not be a deal breaker but using a phone to cheat on an exam and taking an F for the course would make me want to toss the application aside unless the infraction was 10 years ago and the applicant had been a model citizen. I'd recommend finding another career and coming back to medicine at age 30 if the itch is still there.

Sharoo, try to engage in lots of service to others less fortunate than yourself, and also obtain positions of responsibility.

So I know I'm coming in at the very tail end of the discussion here, but I would really just like to highlight this part of what @Goro recommended.

You did something bad. At this point, it's impossible for anyone reading your story to know if you did it because you were young and dumb, or if there is truly an intrinsic problem with your character. The only way to prove that it was the former and not the latter is to build an immaculate track record of impeccable professionalism over the course of 5-10 years. At that point, if this is the one blemish on your record and you have also built a set of life experiences that all of the early-20-somethings don't have, I think you would stand a chance.

Yes, that is a much longer road than going to the Caribbean. It's also much safer. In addition to all of the excellent advice you've been given above, I would add 2 points:

1) By the time you are applying for residency, USMLE step 1 will be graded on a pass/fail basis. Right now, the one place where an IMG can prove they are on-par with a US grad is by crushing step 1, and they are removing that opportunity for you. Nobody knows how that will affect IMGs--maybe it will simply shift the focus to USMLE step 2, maybe it will make things much worse than they already are for IMGs, but regardless I wouldn't want to be a guinea pig risking tens of thousands of dollars to find out.
2) Even if you pass all of your licensing exams, you will have a much narrower set of specialties open to you than you would have had coming from a US school. Sure, now you might think all you want is to be any kind of doctor, but it sucks to have a bunch of doors closed to you even before you start med school.

In summary, I strongly advise you find a different career, show strong character, have success in that venture, and then revisit in 5-10 years if you still want to be a doctor. You have already seen what happens when you try to cut corners to get ahead, and that's essentially what going to the Caribbean is--maybe this time it would work out for you, but I just wouldn't risk it.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

So I know I'm coming in at the very tail end of the discussion here, but I would really just like to highlight this part of what @Goro recommended.

You did something bad. At this point, it's impossible for anyone reading your story to know if you did it because you were young and dumb, or if there is truly an intrinsic problem with your character. The only way to prove that it was the former and not the latter is to build an immaculate track record of impeccable professionalism over the course of 5-10 years. At that point, if this is the one blemish on your record and you have also built a set of life experiences that all of the early-20-somethings don't have, I think you would stand a chance.

Yes, that is a much longer road than going to the Caribbean. It's also much safer. In addition to all of the excellent advice you've been given above, I would add 2 points:

1) By the time you are applying for residency, USMLE step 1 will be graded on a pass/fail basis. Right now, the one place where an IMG can prove they are on-par with a US grad is by crushing step 1, and they are removing that opportunity for you. Nobody knows how that will affect IMGs--maybe it will simply shift the focus to USMLE step 2, maybe it will make things much worse than they already are for IMGs, but regardless I wouldn't want to be a guinea pig risking tens of thousands of dollars to find out.
2) Even if you pass all of your licensing exams, you will have a much narrower set of specialties open to you than you would have had coming from a US school. Sure, now you might think all you want is to be any kind of doctor, but it sucks to have a bunch of doors closed to you even before you start med school.

In summary, I strongly advise you find a different career, show strong character, have success in that venture, and then revisit in 5-10 years if you still want to be a doctor. You have already seen what happens when you try to cut corners to get ahead, and that's essentially what going to the Caribbean is--maybe this time it would work out for you, but I just wouldn't risk it.

Absolutely. This is a key point. I think DO students are going to feel this impact as well, but Caribbean students will definitely feel it. Do not risk it.