Head transplant..

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"Canavero points to Dr. Robert White, who transplanted the head of one monkey to the body of another at Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine in 1970."

OMG. I go to CWRU and while I was volunteering at the Cleveland Clinic a few years ago a patient told me about this experiment. I just thought he was crazy and didn't believe him, and my friends and I have been joking about the supposed experiments he told me about for two years. I can't believe it's real...
 
From what I remember the magi ingredient is just some sort of glycol no?

And it's only been shown to work in vivo......but the patient that is volunteering to do it is pretty desparate.
 
"Canavero points to Dr. Robert White, who transplanted the head of one monkey to the body of another at Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine in 1970."

OMG. I go to CWRU and while I was volunteering at the Cleveland Clinic a few years ago a patient told me about this experiment. I just thought he was crazy and didn't believe him, and my friends and I have been joking about the supposed experiments he told me about for two years. I can't believe it's real...

Yep, it was a thing. Others transplanted puppy heads onto larger dog bodies; these also eventually were dispatched by immune rejection. This guy seems to think that the main obstacle to those experiments (rejection) now being somewhat addressed, this will actually work. He doesn't seem to get that if his magic glue doesn't work perfectly, the patient's medulla simply won't be able to regulate the life functions of his new body, leaving him dependent on respirators and what have you just to live. That doesn't sound like a net gain as compared Werdnig-Hoffman disease.

I find this unethical in particular because there is a huge lack of experimental evidence to base this on. They haven't tried the procedure as constituted in any animal models at all, which is particularly necessary to assess the viability of using this neural glue to try and fuse the spinal cord. Besides this, the field of nerve regeneration is nowhere near where it needs to be to make head transplantation viable. Without this element, he's just going to be imprisoned in a similar fashion to what his current disease affords him. This doesn't even touch the potential identity issues, nor the ethics of using one donor to help multiple people via organs vs. to help one person via body transplant.
 
Ridiculous.

Citing studies from 50 years ago in which no (animal) subject survived more than a couple days means nothing. This is a bunch of science fiction being touted as science fact. (Although it would be a decent premise for a book.)
 
My main issue with it is research design. This experiment is not at all well designed.
I'm really just trolling.

Even if the procedure did work then what next? I can't see a new head meshing well with a foreign body.
 
I'm really just trolling.

Even if the procedure did work then what next? I can't see a new head meshing well with a foreign body.

Oh, guess I need to calibrate my sarcasm meter. lol.

When it comes to vasculature, the head can be transplanted and can perfuse.. the problem is nerve connections won't likely just regenerate. Because vital functions like breathing and heartbeat are regulated in the brainstem above the level of the cut, the new body wouldn't even be able to sustain basic vital functions for the head.
 
Oh, guess I need to calibrate my sarcasm meter. lol.

When it comes to vasculature, the head can be transplanted and can perfuse.. the problem is nerve connections won't likely just regenerate. Because vital functions like breathing and heartbeat are regulated in the brainstem above the level of the cut, the new body wouldn't even be able to sustain basic vital functions for the head.
I don't know what you talkin' bout fancy pants but okay.

Yeah that makes sense. Still, with a new body there would have to be a sh** load of problems that come with it. I guess those would eventually get worked out too.
 
This is going to happen. Is it going to happen (successfully) in 2 years? Probably not. Is it eventually going to happen? You better believe it. The technical aspects aside from the cord are not particularly difficult. The cord will get worked out. There will be body transplants in our lifetime.
What about penis transplants, Dr? That's the one I'm really looking forward to. :bookworm:
 
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This is going to happen. Is it going to happen (successfully) in 2 years? Probably not. Is it eventually going to happen? You better believe it. The technical aspects aside from the cord are not particularly difficult. The cord will get worked out. There will be body transplants in our lifetime.

I do believe we'll make it this far in medicine, I just believe this guy is majorly jumping the gun and is putting this guy at risk by doing it. Evidence doesn't suggest that the proposed method will work, and the patient will not get any substantial improvement in quality of life if his spinal cord can't be properly fused with restoration of function.
 
I do believe we'll make it this far in medicine, I just believe this guy is majorly jumping the gun and is putting this guy at risk by doing it. Evidence doesn't suggest that the proposed method will work, and the patient will not get any substantial improvement in quality of life if his spinal cord can't be properly fused with restoration of function.

If it doesn't get done in the US, it will be done elsewhere and the US will loose its leadership in yet another area of science.
 
I just wanna know if it actually works.

And you know what I mean by "works".
The article said he had sexual function..

Ironically, that's the question we all want the answer to and they didn't come out and say it. If they meant erection they should have used those exact words!
 
I just wanna know if it actually works.

And you know what I mean by "works".
The article said he had sexual function..

Ironically, that's the question we all want the answer to and they didn't come out and say it. If they meant erection they should have used those exact words!
I'm pretty sure "all sexual functions" includes erections...
 
The "magic ingredient" reference makes me feel like this is some elaborate Dr. Oz stunt to sell green coffee bean extract.

LOL. They should give him dr. oz a brain transplant, and by that, I mean a new brain, so he can see how questionable recommending that sort of crap is.
 
Agreed, it's probably not going to be this guy. However, that will probably be because he's gonna eventually get drummed out of the medical community once he actually does this and the guy dies.

However, I think I disagree about your characterization of the likely outcome here. The bony spine will be fused. Assuming that you can actually transplant a whole body and still suppress the immune system with a standard triple therapy regimen, this guy has some potential benefit even if no motor function actually occurs. When you look at the pictures, it is clear that he has significant issues with hygiene and seating owing to his intense contractures and posture. A supple, if flaccid, body would probably improve his overall quality of life.

That being said, I expect this guy will probably die. This procedure will be novel for many more reasons than just the "new head on body" thing. They're going to transplant an entire immune system and all organs, and for me at least I don't think it's clear that a brain can work with a completely foreign autonomic nervous system and endocrine system. The graft-vs-host would, I think, be enormous. And there are some serious questions about mental health in this setting.

No matter what happens, if he goes through with this, it's going to be interesting. Hopefully there will be multiple objective observers who can at least write this up.

That is an interesting factor I hadn't quite considered there - may make hygiene a bit easier for his caregivers (I assume he has one). I do still believe his CNS won't be able to regulate the functions in the new body, which his head could at least do for his old body. This will pose serious problems for life support and I do agree, I don't think he'll survive long if he does survive the procedure itself. I think true anastomosis of the spinal cord is the key missing piece here - we need some time to develop consistent knowledge, technology and technique to successfully fuse and repair spinal cords with restoration of major nerve functions before head/body transplantation is really viable.

If he must do it, I agree that it should be thoroughly documented and well characterized for use by the scientific community. At the very least it'll solidify what problems must be addressed before this can become clinically useful.

If it doesn't get done in the US, it will be done elsewhere and the US will loose its leadership in yet another area of science.

I see where you're coming from, but none of this was initiated by the American community of physicians and scientists.. It's an Italian neurosurgeon and a Russian patient, so providing the venue probably doesn't much bolster the United States' scientific clout, provided the procedure is more successful than expected.
 
is the head transplant restricted to other humans? Or can they put my head on, lets say, a giraffe? that would be pretty cool / useful
Is the brain able to be wired for an inter species transplant? (I know you're not serious, or maybe you are, but I'm genuinely curious if this would be possible).
 
is the head transplant restricted to other humans? Or can they put my head on, lets say, a giraffe? that would be pretty cool / useful

Is the brain able to be wired for an inter species transplant? (I know you're not serious, or maybe you are, but I'm genuinely curious if this would be possible).


I would assume not, primarily because different species have different blood chemistry. At least in a human-human transfer, the head is already acclimated to (er, evolved alongside) the suite of organs and their products.

It is interesting you mention giraffes specifically, as that is the species on Earth with the highest average blood pressure (~300 systolic at rest), and they have a number of adaptations which allow their organs to survive this pressure. Taking a human organ (of any kind) and subjecting it to such an increase in pressure cannot be good. Also, ruminants tend to have smaller RBCs than primates. The exact numbers escape me at the moment, but this is one more example of evolutionary divergence which would probably be a massive hurdle to inter-species transplants.

But that's enough Comparative Physiology for now. Back to your regularly scheduled Sci-Fi thread.👍
 
Is the brain able to be wired for an inter species transplant? (I know you're not serious, or maybe you are, but I'm genuinely curious if this would be possible).
I mean all the s
I would assume not, primarily because different species have different blood chemistry. At least in a human-human transfer, the head is already acclimated to (er, evolved alongside) the suite of organs and their products.

It is interesting you mention giraffes specifically, as that is the species on Earth with the highest average blood pressure (~300 systolic at rest), and they have a number of adaptations which allow their organs to survive this pressure. Taking a human organ (of any kind) and subjecting it to such an increase in pressure cannot be good. Also, ruminants tend to have smaller RBCs than primates. The exact numbers escape me at the moment, but this is one more example of evolutionary divergence which would probably be a massive hurdle to inter-species transplants.

But that's enough Comparative Physiology for now. Back to your regularly scheduled Sci-Fi thread.👍

It would be interesting to see a person react to their cud coming back up into their mouth though.
 
Even if you perfectly fuse the spinal cord do you think that there is little enough variability in people's autonomic/motor/sensory cortexes for the connections with the new body to be the appropriate ones? My guess would be no, which makes this pretty impractical.
 
I believe brain/computer interfacing will make this procedure more of a reality in the next ten-twenty years. We are likely closer to having mech-suits controlled via implanted electrodes skip over the whole spinal cord problem than we are to fixing spinal cord injury, IMO.

Eventually, the spinal cord issue will be solved as well. Probably around the same time in vitro organs/bodies will be grown.
 
I would assume not, primarily because different species have different blood chemistry. At least in a human-human transfer, the head is already acclimated to (er, evolved alongside) the suite of organs and their products.

It is interesting you mention giraffes specifically, as that is the species on Earth with the highest average blood pressure (~300 systolic at rest), and they have a number of adaptations which allow their organs to survive this pressure. Taking a human organ (of any kind) and subjecting it to such an increase in pressure cannot be good. Also, ruminants tend to have smaller RBCs than primates. The exact numbers escape me at the moment, but this is one more example of evolutionary divergence which would probably be a massive hurdle to inter-species transplants.

But that's enough Comparative Physiology for now. Back to your regularly scheduled Sci-Fi thread.👍

Wow, actually a fascinating tidbit there. A human head would surely stroke out under those pressures
 
well I'm surprised people are talking about rejection... the brain is supposed to be pretty much resistant to graft vs host disease (rare and controversial whether donor antibodies can attack brain), and on the other end of the token not sure how much a head could reject a new body since antibodies are made by plasma cells in bone marrow?? (i.e. why people with SCID can get organs or bone marrow without immunosuppresion cause they can't make antibodies to the donor organ). So I don't think rejection is gonna be an obstacle or at least not any more so than any other form of transplant we already do

But the neurology aspect of it is beyond me, my first intuition is that there are a lot of things that need to be thought through, on the other hand this guy is a neurosurgeon who says he has been thinking about this for 30 years and considering how much worse off the patient would be if this fails (ventilation, parenteral nutrition, etc...) I'd like to think the surgeon would not do it unless he was sure it was going to have a realistic chance of working.
 
Oh, guess I need to calibrate my sarcasm meter. lol.

When it comes to vasculature, the head can be transplanted and can perfuse.. the problem is nerve connections won't likely just regenerate. Because vital functions like breathing and heartbeat are regulated in the brainstem above the level of the cut, the new body wouldn't even be able to sustain basic vital functions for the head.

This is totally wrong. Heart has it's own pacemaker and continues to beat in brainstem death (if the patient is on ventilator)
 
well I'm surprised people are talking about rejection... the brain is supposed to be pretty much resistant to graft vs host disease (rare and controversial whether donor antibodies can attack brain), and on the other end of the token not sure how much a head could reject a new body since antibodies are made by plasma cells in bone marrow?? (i.e. why people with SCID can get organs or bone marrow without immunosuppresion cause they can't make antibodies to the donor organ). So I don't think rejection is gonna be an obstacle or at least not any more so than any other form of transplant we already do

But the neurology aspect of it is beyond me, my first intuition is that there are a lot of things that need to be thought through, on the other hand this guy is a neurosurgeon who says he has been thinking about this for 30 years and considering how much worse off the patient would be if this fails (ventilation, parenteral nutrition, etc...) I'd like to think the surgeon would not do it unless he was sure it was going to have a realistic chance of working.
Okay, if the brain is resistant, cool. What about the rest of the head? And the monkey who had it done died due to rejection. And even if, as you postulate, it will be the same rejection potential as say, a kidney transplant, the difference is that when you head is being rejected you will die. When your transplant kidney is being rejected you go back on dialysis.

I think if this guy really thought he could do this, he would be doing it on a monkey first...and he would tell everyone about his magic spinal glue as this would make so much money and help patients with traumatic spinal cord injuries. This is a publicity stunt.
 
This is totally wrong. Heart has it's own pacemaker and continues to beat in brainstem death (if the patient is on ventilator)

Sure, the heart can beat on its own. But the innervation that allows autonomic control of the rate wouldn't work correctly. Of course, if you're not running and jumping or otherwise exerting I suppose heart rate control isn't that big of a problem. I think the real problem lies with the lack of breathing control - I'm not sure living dependent on a vent represents a step up in quality of life.
 
I think if this guy really thought he could do this, he would be doing it on a monkey first...and he would tell everyone about his magic spinal glue as this would make so much money and help patients with traumatic spinal cord injuries. This is a publicity stunt.

I agree here, which is why I ultimately think the timing of this procedure is unethical. There weren't any studies on animal models that I'm aware of. They didn't demonstrate that this procedure would necessarily increase the quality of life for the patient - in all likelihood he won't gain any motor control of the donor body, leaving him right about where he is now, plus dependent on a ventilator. I don't think it's in the patient's best interest. And what studies has he done on his "secret ingredient" gel that shows promise of regenerating the spinal cord?
 
Okay, if the brain is resistant, cool. What about the rest of the head? And the monkey who had it done died due to rejection. And even if, as you postulate, it will be the same rejection potential as say, a kidney transplant, the difference is that when you head is being rejected you will die. When your transplant kidney is being rejected you go back on dialysis.

I think if this guy really thought he could do this, he would be doing it on a monkey first...and he would tell everyone about his magic spinal glue as this would make so much money and help patients with traumatic spinal cord injuries. This is a publicity stunt.

What will the body reject if not the brain?

He says the glue wouldn't work on traumatic spinal cord injuries because those break the cord unevenly like breaking a bunch of spaghetti, each stick breaks at a different spot so you can't just put it back together as it is a million different fibers broken at dif spots. If you listened to what he said you'd know this.

But I agree with you he needs to test the new knife on a monkey first.
 
I am not a doctor or a surgeon so I can't really comment on the medical aspect and what not..
I will say that I don't really think we have boundaries in medicine
I am pretty sure when someone first came up with heart transplants people probably thought the person was crazy.

Will this work? Who knows.. I am not a neurosurgeon,I don't know what he wants to do, etc

Do I hope it works? Yeah

We could create super soldiers then! Lol joking.. But hey more progress is cool with me.
 
What will the body reject if not the brain?

He says the glue wouldn't work on traumatic spinal cord injuries because those break the cord unevenly like breaking a bunch of spaghetti, each stick breaks at a different spot so you can't just put it back together as it is a million different fibers broken at dif spots. If you listened to what he said you'd know this.

But I agree with you he needs to test the new knife on a monkey first.

Even if they are all cut at the same level, that's still billions of neurons that need to line up perfectly on a microscopic level, so I think the likelihood of achieving that kind of alignment with a surgical approach is not likely. Additionally, assuming we do achieve the proper alignment, is the glue going to necessarily cause the cell membranes of the axons to fuse back together again?
 
ok you're right, GVHD will attack mucous membranes.
likely, yes? And with this situation we would have to delineate which part was the graft and which one was the host.

But nice you don't understand that organ rejections often involve the vasculature of the graft. But keep going with your stupidity. You're right. Bodies won't reject bones, vasculature, muscles, nerves, etc. of foreign nature. They will only reject parenchyma. Makes sense. You'll make a world-class head transplanter someday like this guy.
 
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You are your head so wouldn't it be a body transplant lol
 
likely, yes? And with this situation we would have to delineate which part was the graft and which one was the host.

But nice you don't understand that organ rejections often involve the vasculature of the graft. But keep going with your stupidity. You're right. Bodies won't reject bones, vasculature, muscles, nerves, etc. of foreign nature. They will only reject parenchyma. Makes sense. You'll make a world-class head transplanter someday like this guy.

oh I thought we were talking about graft vs host not organ rejection, does GVHD attack vasculature?
 
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