Healthcare Bill

[Drad18]

What is going to happen is....they will pass this with an amendment to hold doctors salaries...BUT then the Republicans will repeal that when they regain the majority in November and cause a significant decline in our salary.

What makes you think Republicans will repeal to instead decline doctors' salaries?

IMO that will not occur, aren't the majority of doctors republican?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[casualremark]

Umm.. ok.. My point was that the person who posted that socialism has brought us nowhere is dead wrong...

So your point was based on something not even said? Yikes.

I don't have time to go through your little story point by point, so I'll just summarize things with this: for every example of the federal government doing a good job of babysitting its citizens, there are ten examples of the federal government doing a bad job of babysitting its citizens - none of which even addresses the issue of how things might have been without such government intrusions in the first place!

I have a problem with the concept of public education. In fact, my medical school application is on hold while I do my best to give my children a firm educational footing at home. I pay taxes to fund public education. However, not only is the public educational system not made sustainable only by the failure of the private educational opportunities in this country, but I am not fined (yet ) for not sending my children to be taught by the public educational system.

I have a problem with many practices of mainstream medicine: advocating aerobics, the government's food guide pyramid, routine hospital childbirth, routine vaccination, many physical therapy protocols, mainstream cholesterol medication, routine fever-reducing treatment, routine infection control (or the lack thereof), pre-surgery antibiotic prophylaxis, mainstream infant reflux treatment plans, etc. So despite my disagreement, my taxes will fund these practices (they already do), and I will be fined if I don't buy into the entities that perpetuate them?!?! Double yikes.

 

[Tutmos]

Four words: Hire as Independent contractors, it avoids all these silly taxes penalties.

Easier said than done sadly. There is an IRS test for whether or not a person qualifies as an independent contractor or if they are actually an employee and required to contribute FICA, SS, Medicare withholding and matching by the employer for the latter two. The gist of it is if you control when and where they work you are an employer and required to withhold. As an employer it is really annoying to have a person randomly leave in the middle of the day to do something else, which is the price of people being actual contractors. We used to use it heavily for people doing sales work for us but I shifted them back to employee status because I got annoyed by the lack of control. It's also a red flag to the taxman. They don't like it and they like to nail people doing it when they shouldn't, not worth the trouble.

 

[link2swim06]

What makes you think Republicans will repeal to instead decline doctors' salaries?

IMO that will not occur, aren't the majority of doctors republican?

This is historically what the republicans have tried to do in the past 5 years (drop Medicare payouts but democrats stopped republicans from doing that). While I identify myself as conservative and did not vote for Obama, this has been what the past years have shown.

Remember the entire point of Republicans is too lessen government, lower taxes, etc. They will cut wherever possible....

This is how we will ultimately get screwed.

 

[wjdghks]

Tsk, tsk, silly conservatives. I'm laughing my ass off reading all of you acting like a bunch of chickens with its head cut off (or brains removed).

 

[casualremark]

...Companies with more than 50 employees that don't offer coverage would be fined up to $750 per worker if any employees rely on government subsidies to buy coverage.

um. Problems w/ this, anyone? ...anyone? ...Bueller?

 

[sewcurious]

Tsk, tsk, silly conservatives. I'm laughing my ass off reading all of you acting like a bunch of chickens with its head cut off (or brains removed).

OMG that is amazing.

 

[Tutmos]

Tsk, tsk, silly conservatives. I'm laughing my ass off reading all of you acting like a bunch of chickens with its head cut off (or brains removed).

Ignoring the troll that's begging for attention at the bottom, did anyone else notice the name of the artist that did the picture? Hehe how's that for funny that an artist named Wuerker was drawing pro-socialist cartoons!

 

[JaggerPlate]

This is historically what the republicans have tried to do in the past 5 years (drop Medicare payouts but democrats stopped republicans from doing that). While I identify myself as conservative and did not vote for Obama, this has been what the past years have shown.

Remember the entire point of Republicans is too lessen government, lower taxes, etc. They will cut wherever possible....

This is how we will ultimately get screwed.

It's a double edged sword with regards to medicare and conservatives ...

Republicans don't like big government, and most of the people arguing against the HC bill in this thread feel the same. Since Repubs don't like big government, they aren't going to want to do things like boost medicare (big government in their minds). However, since Medicare drives the insurance market ... this is going to hurt doc salaries. It's a catch 22 ... you can either feed the beast because it won't go away, or try and kill it, and waste away yourself in the meantime.

Just my .02, and I won't even share what I'd like to do.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Tsk, tsk, silly conservatives. I'm laughing my ass off reading all of you acting like a bunch of chickens with its head cut off (or brains removed).

Checklist ...

American public education = awesome (we're ranked best in the world, right?)
Roads = great (these are never broken down, jacked up, and half finished)
Water = couldn't tell you ... we all drink bottled water imported from European countries or made by Coca-Cola (private company). Guess it works okay for my grass and dog.
Parks = Awesome ... I often utilize those safe havens in LA and NY

(flash forward 20 years)
Healthcare ... same category of inefficiency and mockery.


Funny cartoon though dude ... I remember when I started college too.

 

[sewcurious]

I don't have time to go through your little story point by point, so I'll just summarize things with this: for every example of the federal government doing a good job of babysitting its citizens, there are ten examples of the federal government doing a bad job of babysitting its citizens - none of which even addresses the issue of how things might have been without such government intrusions in the first place!

I'm not sure that is really "evidence", no such list would be possible

I have a problem with the concept of public education. In fact, my medical school application is on hold while I do my best to give my children a firm educational footing at home. I pay taxes to fund public education. However, not only is the public educational system not made sustainable only by the failure of the private educational opportunities in this country, but I am not fined (yet ) for not sending my children to be taught by the public educational system.

isn't it just semantics, you were taxed for something u didn't use, isn't that a fine? Just because one happens before the fact and one happens after it is hugely different?

I have a problem with many practices of mainstream medicine: advocating aerobics, the government's food guide pyramid, routine hospital childbirth, routine vaccination, many physical therapy protocols, mainstream cholesterol medication, routine fever-reducing treatment, routine infection control (or the lack thereof), pre-surgery antibiotic prophylaxis, mainstream infant reflux treatment plans, etc. So despite my disagreement, my taxes will fund these practices (they already do), and I will be fined if I don't buy into the entities that perpetuate them?!?! Double yikes.

Um, how do you not buy into healthcare? Unless you and your entire family are incredibly lucky (and immaculately healthy) at some point one of you will likely need a "traditional" doctor, even if only in emergencies (*knocks on wood*). Since so many going to the emergency room/ getting care w/o insurance (or undercovered) is what is causing a lot of this whole problem (a cost that then gets diverted on to those that do have insurance by hospitals) this just seems like u are defraying yours costs onto us (since by US law that no one argues with, we are REQUIRED to treat anyone that needs acute treatment at a hospital).


I agree with a lot of what you say but to fix everything you disagree w/ we'd have to break it down and build it up again. That is not feasible. It sucks to support things you don;t agree with but that it what government is sometimes. I don't support the war previously known as War on Terror, but I cant just not pay that percentage of my taxes.

HC passed. You guys lost. Maybe SCOTUS will redeem you, maybe not. If not, your tax payer dollars will go to this. Sometimes politics doesn't work in your favor. Today seems like that day for you. Trust me us (proud) liberal socialist (minority) hippies have had our fair share too.

 

[FlowRate]

I feel like there are a few "posters" in this thread who are actually one poster... Drad has to be a troll, no joke.

 

[sewcurious]

I feel like there are a few "posters" in this thread who are actually one poster... Drad has to be a troll, no joke.

its slightly amusing though

 

[7starmantis]

Since so many going to the emergency room/ getting care w/o insurance (or undercovered) is what is causing a lot of this whole problem (a cost that then gets diverted on to those that do have insurance by hospitals) this just seems like u are defraying yours costs onto us (since by US law that no one argues with, we are REQUIRED to treat anyone that needs acute treatment at a hospital).

The massive merge of these threads killed any conversation or debating I was doing (great job). I'm not reading through this monster to find replies. however, I do have to respond to this.

This is a common point that is rooted in false truth. The only people who "defray their cost" are those who do not pay their bill. While its true there are many who do not pay (no one is saying there is not) to say all those who go to the ER without insurance contribute to the problem is disingenuous.

 

[sewcurious]

The massive merge of these threads killed any conversation or debating I was doing (great job). I'm not reading through this monster to find replies. however, I do have to respond to this.

This is a common point that is rooted in false truth. The only people who "defray their cost" are those who do not pay their bill. While its true there are many who do not pay (no one is saying there is not) to say all those who go to the ER without insurance contribute to the problem is disingenuous.

Many people are unable to pay their entire bill and many do not pay. Hospitals defray these costs by charging more to patients with insurance (since they can't charge the govt more).

Even if you don't agree with that u must admit that people who don't get primary care otfen use ERs which then crowds them and makes them incredibly ineffcient when you get into a car accident. Additionally most who can't afford/don't buy health insurance do not have th spare funds to completely pay for medical care. When that happens, maybe ur right they do pay, and then go bankrupt (which s why the #1 cause of bankruptcy in this country is...MEDICAL COSTS)

 

[7starmantis]

Many people are unable to pay their entire bill and many do not pay. Hospitals defray these costs by charging more to patients with insurance.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4118164/er-frequent-fliers/?playlist_id=87249

Reading comprehension fail.... read my post before responding please, saves us all time.

 

[7starmantis]

Many people are unable to pay their entire bill and many do not pay. Hospitals defray these costs by charging more to patients with insurance (since they can't charge the govt more and most independent individuals are not).

Re: Your edit.

You have some sources showing different sets of prices for people with and those without insurance?

 

[JDissere]

the passage of this bill is a win for morality

 

[sewcurious]

Re: Your edit.

You have some sources showing different sets of prices for people with and those without insurance?

honey, I am not a child, I can read. I disagree with you sorry that was unclear but do not disregard me like an idiot. I am not. I have thought about this issue a lot just like you. My views are valid just like yours.

Back to the convo.

 

[UTMBstudent]

Re: Your edit.

You have some sources showing different sets of prices for people with and those without insurance?

My professor said that in general people without insurance have to pay higher prices than those who do have insurance. That's what I had always heard too because the insurance companies get better deals with hospitals.

 

[sewcurious]

My professor said that in general people without insurance have to pay higher prices than those who do have insurance. That's what I had always heard too because the insurance companies get better deals with hospitals.

my professor told me the opposite. The point is the cost of those who can't pay are defrayed on to those who can. Most people without in surenace CANNOT afford any serious health issue.

 

[7starmantis]

honey, I am not a child, I can read. I disagree with you sorry that was unclear but do not disregard me like an idiot. I am not. I have thought about this issue a lot just like you. My views are valid just like yours.

Back to the convo.

Sweetie, your passive aggressive response fails to correspond to your faux humility. I didn't say your opinion wasn't valid (nice knee jerk reaction there) I said you didn't really read my post. Your response was actually covered in my original post. I said there were people who didn't pay, lots of them, to respond by saying there are people who dont pay shows a lack of either comprehension or actually reading my post. (I'm going with the latter).

I'm not saying there aren't people who do not pay, but (once again) to say everyone who goes to the ER without insurance is adding to the problem is disingenuous at best. Thats what my last post said.

 

[7starmantis]

My professor said that in general people without insurance have to pay higher prices than those who do have insurance. That's what I had always heard too because the insurance companies get better deals with hospitals.

my professor told me the opposite. The point is the cost of those who can't pay are defrayed on to those who can. Most people without in surenace CANNOT afford any serious health issue.

Actual sources (outside of "my professor said so") would solve this issue quickly.

Edit: As a side note, most people with insurance can't afford any serious health issue. Catastrophic coverage is not something addressed by any of the bills including the one that passed.

 

[UTMBstudent]

Actual sources (outside of "my professor said so") would solve this issue quickly.

Edit: As a side note, most people with insurance can't afford any serious health issue. Catastrophic coverage is not something addressed by any of the bills including the one that passed.

What's my professor, a doctor with 15 years of experience, know?

Insurance companies negotiate for better prices from hospitals and other providers. I'm not going to take the time to look up a source to something that most people know. I'm studying neuro as I post so I don't want to add to my "homework".

 

[JaggerPlate]

My professor could beat up your professor.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Children you should all relax

 

[7starmantis]

What's my professor, a doctor with 15 years of experience, know?

Insurance companies negotiate for better prices from hospitals and other providers. I'm not going to take the time to look up a source to something that most people know. I'm studying neuro as I post so I don't want to add to my "homework".

My professor could beat up your professor.

UTMBstudent, I'm not trying to upset you, chilax. I'm just sayin. Appeals to authority (or numbers) dont go far in these kinds of debates. I just used your response to reiterate my request for some sources earlier on.

 

[UTMBstudent]

UTMBstudent, I'm not trying to upset you, chilax. I'm just sayin. Appeals to authority (or numbers) dont go far in these kinds of debates. I just used your response to reiterate my request for some sources earlier on.

I'm as chillaxed as someone can be given the circumstances.

I'm not even sure where one would find a source expressing this fact.

 

[JDissere]

My professor said that in general people without insurance have to pay higher prices than those who do have insurance. That's what I had always heard too because the insurance companies get better deals with hospitals.

insurance companies negotiate prices per service. they don't negotiate prices per patient. the price of an MRI is fixed. the problem is who will pay for it.

 

[sewcurious]

Children you should all relax

helpful

Reading comprehension fail.... read my post before responding please, saves us all time.

yup not condescending at all.

we've sidetracked, happy to be proud of my government process/politicians today. I'm probably wrong about a lot if not everything but I have the naivete of youth (apparently shared by 219 Democrats in the house) to be happy that (if it works) today was one small step to more people being able to get better, more efficient, less expensive care. I'm sure I'll learn eventually, but for today I like my idealism (its like a fuzzy warm coat)

 

[JaggerPlate]

proud of my government process/politicians today.

Honestly ... you can be glad the bill passed, you can like Obama for pushing so hard for it, etc, BUT

If you can tell me, 100% honestly that you are happy with the manner in which this bill was pushed along and passed ... then you are seriously, seriously drinking the koolaid. This was one of the sickest, most repulsive processes I have ever witnessed in my life. The closed door meetings? The scare tactics? The blatant bribes? E T freaaaking C.

Swear to God ... I'm clearly a Republican, and I'd be 'happy' if some right wing agenda bill passed too, but I can say for a fact, if it was passed this dirty ... I wouldn't ever, ever claim to be happy with the 'process.' The process is everything, and I mean everything wrong with government.

 

[JDissere]

Honestly ... you can be glad the bill passed, you can like Obama for pushing so hard for it, etc, BUT

If you can tell me, 100% honestly that you are happy with the manner in which this bill was pushed along and passed ... then you are seriously, seriously drinking the koolaid. This was one of the sickest, most repulsive processes I have ever witnessed in my life. The closed door meetings? The scare tactics? The blatant bribes? E T freaaaking C.

Swear to God ... I'm clearly a Republican, and I'd be 'happy' if some right wing agenda bill passed too, but I can say for a fact, if it was passed this dirty ... I wouldn't ever, ever claim to be happy with the 'process.' The process is everything, and I mean everything wrong with government.

i dont understand how this is different than any other controversial bill.

 

[UTMBstudent]

insurance companies negotiate prices per service. they don't negotiate prices per patient. the price of an MRI is fixed. the problem is who will pay for it.

Yes, but only the patients with that insurance gets that price. The price varies depending on which, if any, insurance plan a patient has.

Okay, enough of that mini debate.

 

[sewcurious]

Honestly ... you can be glad the bill passed, you can like Obama for pushing so hard for it, etc, BUT

If you can tell me, 100% honestly that you are happy with the manner in which this bill was pushed along and passed ... then you are seriously, seriously drinking the koolaid. This was one of the sickest, most repulsive processes I have ever witnessed in my life. The closed door meetings? The scare tactics? The blatant bribes? E T freaaaking C.

Swear to God ... I'm clearly a Republican, and I'd be 'happy' if some right wing agenda bill passed too, but I can say for a fact, if it was passed this dirty ... I wouldn't ever, ever claim to be happy with the 'process.' The process is everything, and I mean everything wrong with government.

It's the political process. Do I wish it could have been bettr of course. But to suggest that this is somehow new is simply untrue, those projects are a time-honored part of US govt, Republicans and Dems use it ALL THE TIME.

 

[JDissere]

Yes, but only the patients with that insurance gets that price. The price varies depending on which, if any, insurance plan a patient has.

Okay, enough of that mini debate.

the price being negotiated isnt the price of service. its the cost of reimbursement.

 

[JaggerPlate]

To both posters ... I'm not arguing that the Republicans don't use it. It's wrong when they do, and it's wrong now. It just feels so dirty to me. HOWEVER, I do feel like this bill was much, much messier than usual.

 

[sewcurious]

To both posters ... I'm not arguing that the Republicans don't use it. It's wrong when they do, and it's wrong now. It just feels so dirty to me. HOWEVER, I do feel like this bill was much, much messier than usual.

and you don't think that has anything to do with the fact that you personally disagree with it?

 

[JDissere]

To both posters ... I'm not arguing that the Republicans don't use it. It's wrong when they do, and it's wrong now. It just feels so dirty to me. HOWEVER, I do feel like this bill was much, much messier than usual.

whats the usual? you mean it was on television more?

 

[7starmantis]

I'm probably wrong about a lot if not everything but I have the naivete of youth (apparently shared by 219 Democrats in the house) to be happy that (if it works) today was one small step to more people being able to get better, more efficient, less expensive care. I'm sure I'll learn eventually, but for today I like my idealism (its like a fuzzy warm coat)

And a vast minority of the american people. I dont think even Pelosi has claimed the bill will give "better, more efficient, less expensive care". Thats a little far even for this bill. Dumping 30 million patients into a static market never increases efficiency or lowers expense. I guess we'll see, eh?

Yes, but only the patients with that insurance gets that price. The price varies depending on which, if any, insurance plan a patient has.

Reimbursement is what your referring to. I've worked in the hospital for years and the ER for many years, never seen patients getting different prices. Ever.

Edit: I have seen patients getting "dumped" so to speak if they dont have insurance though. but not sure that supports this specific bill.

 

[JDissere]

And a vast minority of the american people. I dont think even Pelosi has claimed the bill will give "better, more efficient, less expensive care". Thats a little far even for this bill. Dumping 30 million patients into a static market never increases efficiency or lowers expense. I guess we'll see, eh?

the economics is normative. when you say "lowers expense," for whom do you mean? for the government or for the patient?

 

[FlowRate]

and you don't think that has anything to do with the fact that you personally disagree with it?

Maybe because it was such a hotly contested, overarching piece of legislation?

Different spins on the same idea...

 

[7starmantis]

the economics is normative. when you say "lowers expense," for whom do you mean? for the government or for the patient?

Well now that the government has made healthcare its business we are talking about "expense" for the government. Paying for the healthcare of 30 million people (who live and eat in America) is a daunting task even for the fed.

 

[sewcurious]

And a vast minority of the american people. I dont think even Pelosi has claimed the bill will give "better, more efficient, less expensive care". Thats a little far even for this bill. Dumping 30 million patients into a static market never increases efficiency or lowers expense. I guess we'll see, eh?

I know Obama has said it. The bill goes beyond the 30 mil. It also (at least in previous iterations) attempts to put restrictions on costs and get more people into primary care, which will definitely help the minority communities that are suffering for lack of it.

 

[JDissere]

Well now that the government has made healthcare its business we are talking about "expense" for the government. Paying for the healthcare of 30 million people (who live and eat in America) is a daunting task even for the fed.

Paying for the education of 300 million people is also a daunting task.

 

[sewcurious]

Well now that the government has made healthcare its business we are talking about "expense" for the government. Paying for the healthcare of 30 million people (who live and eat in America) is a daunting task even for the fed.

haha agreed. That is why I didn't like the bill its like we're paying for it twice. We subsidize corn so that junk food/fast food costs less than fruits and veggies, then when everyone (esp. the poor) get fat (and sick because they're fat) they decide to pay for the medical bill.

Around and around we go.

 

[JaggerPlate]

and you don't think that has anything to do with the fact that you personally disagree with it?

Do you think the fact that you agree with the bill on an ideological level has anything to do with the fact that you are 'proud' of the process/think it's part of the political norm???

I think, at heart, we both know the answers to our respective questions.

 

[7starmantis]

I know Obama has said it. The bill goes beyond the 30 mil. It also (at least in previous iterations) attempts to put restrictions on costs and get more people into primary care, which will definitely help the minority communities that are suffering for lack of it.

Ok, would love to see that quote, but Obama has said lots of things, even Pelosi says that.

Actually the bill leaves out lots of people, so I'm not sure what you mean by "goes beyond the 30 million" (which is a bogus number to begin with). Long term, chronic, and catastrophic illness will turn this bill on its ear. Throwing money at the problem just doesn't solve it.

 

[JaggerPlate]

BTW ...

In the 'topics in healthcare' forums, there is a grad student named Lokthar who had to read all 2,500 pages of the bill for a class, and is answering questions and giving really, really well-informed insight. Worth checking out.

 

[7starmantis]

Paying for the education of 300 million people is also a daunting task.

Not sure you point here.

haha agreed. That is why I didn't like the bill its like we're paying for it twice. We subsidize corn so that junk food/fast food costs less than fruits and veggies, then when everyone (esp. the poor) get fat (and sick because they're fat) they decide to pay for the medical bill.

Around and around we go.

 

[sewcurious]

Do you think the fact that you agree with the bill on an ideological level has anything to do with the fact that you are 'proud' of the process/think it's part of the political norm???

I think, at heart, we both know the answers to our respective questions.

I never claimed it didn't. I thought the process as a whole was atrocious (when i saw sausage being made i became vegetarian), but I like it today because it was in my favor today.