Hearing many residency programs will take their own students this cycle due to no aways. Do you think this is likely to affect Internal Medicine?

[deleted1016251]

Hello all, I'm an incoming M4 at a D.O. school planning to apply for Internal Medicine in the fall, with the goal of matching to the best academic university program I can get. You may have seen me post here in this forum recently

I know that there exists a stigma against D.O applicants at very competitive academic programs, and so I was initially planning to do several audition rotations at university programs so that I can impress them in person and improve my chances of receiving an invitation to interview.

With the ongoing pandemic, it is now very unlikely that I end up being able to do any auditions, which is a bummer for me, but I understand the necessity of doing this.

Anyways, what I have been hearing through the med student grapevine is that many programs for a variety of specialties intend to mostly accept the graduates from their own affiliated med school since they are now unable to see applicants in person via auditions, and would therefore prefer to go with the known commodity of their own graduates.

I was hoping the people here could give me their insight on how this trend may affect internal medicine applicants such as myself. I had been advised in the past that for IM there is no need to do any audition rotations (even though I was planning to do them anyways because of the DO thing and the belief that I could do well enough on the audition to improve my odds rather than hurt them). Based on this, it would seemingly not matter for an IM applicant whether or not aways and auditions are canceled because they are normally not much of a factor for the specialty anyways.

I was wondering what current residents and attending here might think about this issue. Any insight is of course appreciated!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[InternistDO]

Auditions really don't matter for IM, pandemic or not. My friends who matched at good places didn't rotate there, I didn't rotate anywhere. MD students don't audition for IM either.

Many university programs in less competitive places (the south, the midwest, etc) will be fine with taking a DO. A few in competitive places will, you should research the programs in your areas of interest. The ones that aren't going to take DOs are extremely unlikely to change their minds because of an audition.

Right now there's not much you can do except apply broadly and see what happens. Since IM programs almost never relied on auditions, I doubt this will impact how programs evaluate applicants. It's much more of an issue for EM and the surgical programs where students are expected to do multiple aways.

 

[deleted1016251]

Auditions really don't matter for IM, pandemic or not. My friends who matched at good places didn't rotate there, I didn't rotate anywhere. MD students don't audition for IM either.

Many university programs in less competitive places (the south, the midwest, etc) will be fine with taking a DO. A few in competitive places will, you should research the programs in your areas of interest. The ones that aren't going to take DOs are extremely unlikely to change their minds because of an audition.

Right now there's not much you can do except apply broadly and see what happens. Since IM programs almost never relied on auditions, I doubt this will impact how programs evaluate applicants. It's much more of an issue for EM and the surgical programs where students are expected to do multiple aways.

Thanks for your input, that’s really a relief to hear.

 

[gutonc]

Good news! COVID-19 is going to prevent you from wasting your time and money doing aways at programs that weren't going to interview, or rank you, anyway.

If you all won't listen to us here, maybe you'll listen to Dr. Fauci.

Seriously though, the "aim high" away rotation in IM is a fantasy. Sure, there are exceptions, but they basically prove the rule.

 

[deleted1016251]

Good news! COVID-19 is going to prevent you from wasting your time and money doing aways at programs that weren't going to interview, or rank you, anyway.

If you all won't listen to us here, maybe you'll listen to Dr. Fauci.

Seriously though, the "aim high" away rotation in IM is a fantasy. Sure, there are exceptions, but they basically prove the rule.

Could you elaborate a bit more on what you mean by "the aim high away rotation in IM is a fantasy"? I'm not fully sure I understand what you mean

 

[InternistDO]

Could you elaborate a bit more on what you mean by "the aim high away rotation in IM is a fantasy"? I'm not fully sure I understand what you mean

He means the idea that a DO could go to Columbia or UCLA and wow the faculty so much that they give you an interview. It's not going to happen. In fact, I knew a student who rotated at a similar place and was told "wow, you're great and we'd love to have you, but there's no way we can take a DO. We'll just write you a really good letter." He did fine in the match, but still--aways aren't magic.

 

[gutonc]

He means the idea that a DO could go to Columbia or UCLA and wow the faculty so much that they give you an interview. It's not going to happen. In fact, I knew a student who rotated at a similar place and was told "wow, you're great and we'd love to have you, but there's no way we can take a DO. We'll just write you a really good letter." He did fine in the match, but still--aways aren't magic.

What s/he said.

Could UCSF/Stanford/NW/Duke/ETC give you an away spot as a DO? Sure.
Are they going to offer you an interview? Maybe...a courtesy interview if you're there during interview season.
Are they going to rank you? Not even if you single-handedly run the MICU 24h a day for 4 weeks and save the lives of the Dean, the IM chair and PD and the CMO of the hospital. It's just not happening.

Is that "fair"? Probably not. But it's reality.

Assuming your app generally looks good, you've got scores of great programs to choose from. But the "Top X" aren't among them. Accept that and save your time, money and energy.

 

[deleted1016251]

What s/he said.

Could UCSF/Stanford/NW/Duke/ETC give you an away spot as a DO? Sure.
Are they going to offer you an interview? Maybe...a courtesy interview if you're there during interview season.
Are they going to rank you? Not even if you single-handedly run the MICU 24h a day for 4 weeks and save the lives of the Dean, the IM chair and PD and the CMO of the hospital. It's just not happening.

Is that "fair"? Probably not. But it's reality.

Assuming your app generally looks good, you've got scores of great programs to choose from. But the "Top X" aren't among them. Accept that and save your time, money and energy.

I see. It’s unfortunate and frustrating, but I guess your advice at the end is the most important part here. That’s the reality and it seems there is not much I can do about it, so I suppose there’s no point in getting worked up

 

[blub1212]

Realistically, you stand more of a chance of hurting yourself with an away rotation than you do helping yourself. The inefficiency of not knowing the system and the "players" is easily interpreted as you being a poor performer.

Also, I do think more applicants will end up at their home institutions for both fellowship and residency this year. First off, as an applicant, it is hard to move across the country and commit the future of your career to a place that you have never been to. Popular programs (ie places ranked high on those super helpful rankings) are going to be fine, but other programs will have a harder time getting people to come to them. And, on the flip side, if you are a program that cares about the culture of your residents it is almost impossible to figure out if someone is going to fit in or not over Zoom.

Programs that have a very good online and social media presence will fair well, programs that don't will struggle this year.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

What s/he said.

Could UCSF/Stanford/NW/Duke/ETC give you an away spot as a DO? Sure.
Are they going to offer you an interview? Maybe...a courtesy interview if you're there during interview season.
Are they going to rank you? Not even if you single-handedly run the MICU 24h a day for 4 weeks and save the lives of the Dean, the IM chair and PD and the CMO of the hospital. It's just not happening.

Is that "fair"? Probably not. But it's reality.

Assuming your app generally looks good, you've got scores of great programs to choose from. But the "Top X" aren't among them. Accept that and save your time, money and energy.

I get what you're saying, but then what would you suggest an average DO student with minimal research experience to do to land a Uni IM program in a location they absolutely have no ties or connections to? I can't imagine them just leaning heavy on letters of interest or luck or something similar. I would think 1 or 2 away/audition rotation(s) at Uni program(s) that they actually have a chance at landing would be a pretty healthy amount even if they only get good letters out of it and nothing else (not even a courtesy interview).

 

[gutonc]

I get what you're saying, but then what would you suggest an average DO student with minimal research experience to do to land a Uni IM program in a location they absolutely have no ties or connections to? I can't imagine them just leaning heavy on letters of interest or luck or something similar. I would think 1 or 2 away/audition rotation(s) at Uni program(s) that they actually have a chance at landing would be a pretty healthy amount even if they only get good letters out of it and nothing else (not even a courtesy interview).

You apply. Like everyone else. By the time 4th year rolls around, your die is cast and you make the most of the application you have.

A random LOR from an institution you clearly have no connection to is going to raise more eyebrows than it will puff up your app.

 

[InternistDO]

I get what you're saying, but then what would you suggest an average DO student with minimal research experience to do to land a Uni IM program in a location they absolutely have no ties or connections to? I can't imagine them just leaning heavy on letters of interest or luck or something similar. I would think 1 or 2 away/audition rotation(s) at Uni program(s) that they actually have a chance at landing would be a pretty healthy amount even if they only get good letters out of it and nothing else (not even a courtesy interview).

Several of my classmates matched at impressive IM programs. They didn't do any aways, they didn't have particularly impressive research, and they didn't have letters from brand name places, but they did have good board scores and otherwise excellent applications.

I had less impressive apps than they did and about half my interviews were bigger university programs.

 

[tantacles]

I see. It’s unfortunate and frustrating, but I guess your advice at the end is the most important part here. That’s the reality and it seems there is not much I can do about it, so I suppose there’s no point in getting worked up

I'm just finishing residency.l Please reframe this in your mind. A prestigious residency might have more money, but it doesn't necessarily give you better clinical training. You will still be a practicing physician who can do awesome clinical work whether you train at MGH or community hospital X in Idaho. Your patients know what a doctor is. If you do research you will have an opportunity to do the fellowship you want.

Going to a community hospital or a lesser known academic hospital is not "mediocrity." It is still medicine, and you still come out able to treat patients well if you put in the work. I was disappointed when I didn't match at UPenn, and it took me a lot of time to realize that my residency did an amazing job training me. I'm prepared to do anything.

 

[sanfran256]

xx

 

[deleted1016251]

I did an away because I was told the region I wanted to go to was very competitive (CA). Despite normally being strong clinically, I underperformed due to the already stated reasons, and attending was one of the APDs. I ended up not getting an IV to that program .. and ended up getting interviews at most of the other CA programs I applied to . Ended up at a more competitive/ stronger program in CA than the one I did an away at. No one knew or cared that I did an away on the interview trail.

So essentially the away was a complete waste of time and just hurt me. Don't do one!

Are you a DO too? And if so, can I DM you?

 

[sanfran256]

Are you a DO too? And if so, can I DM you?

I am not (MD) , but feel free!

 

[deleted480308]

What s/he said.

Could UCSF/Stanford/NW/Duke/ETC give you an away spot as a DO? Sure.
Are they going to offer you an interview? Maybe...a courtesy interview if you're there during interview season.
Are they going to rank you? Not even if you single-handedly run the MICU 24h a day for 4 weeks and save the lives of the Dean, the IM chair and PD and the CMO of the hospital. It's just not happening.

Is that "fair"? Probably not. But it's reality.

Assuming your app generally looks good, you've got scores of great programs to choose from. But the "Top X" aren't among them. Accept that and save your time, money and energy.

I had a friend with a completely absurd 99% percentile score go audition at one of these places. They were crazy brilliant with a cv 4 pages long with research. Sitting around half way through the rotation the fellows were chatting with them and saying they were flat killing it, you’re amazing, you’re gonna be a great resident blah blah blah. They asked him where he was planning on going to residency.

“I’m auditioning to go here”

awkward pause....

dude we think you are great and we think you can absolutely do the job but we don’t rank DOs. hopefully the letter from here will help you Somewhere you have a chance at.

They were crushed. It sucks

 

[sanfran256]

I had a friend with a completely absurd 99% percentile score go audition at one of these places. They were crazy brilliant with a cv 4 pages long with research. Sitting around half way through the rotation the fellows were chatting with them and saying they were flat killing it, you’re amazing, you’re gonna be a great resident blah blah blah. They asked him where he was planning on going to residency.

“I’m auditioning to go here”

awkward pause....

dude we think you are great and we think you can absolutely do the job but we don’t rank DOs. hopefully the letter from here will help you Somewhere you have a chance at.

They were crushed. It sucks

That's awful . But if you go look at their residents , they haven't had a DO in years , if ever. What would he expect ? Hope the letter did good though

 

[cookiegrub]

That's awful . But if you go look at their residents , they haven't had a DO in years , if ever. What would he expect ? Hope the letter did good though

let's just state it for what it is...discrimination.
I know plenty of people who went to easy colleges who got into great MD schools. I also know ppl who went to hard colleges and get into DO despite an average or above average app. If this is how medical intellects see a hard-working medical student who arguably goes through more or less of the same education (unlike college where you pick a multitude combination of easy/hard classes), it makes me wonder where are we in medical education evolution and unity. Is it just the looks that matter? If fellowship isn't an issue for DOs at top institutes, why is residency? Does the impact of rotating through 3rd year clerkships for simply a month or 2 in a mediocre setting really make students incompetent despite strong scores? These are all excuses because the bigger the hospital the more shadowing someone does (ie the top 10 programs all go through this). An MD preceptor once told me that residency is where you get trained, medical school is to learn what you want to train in. I am far from being the brightest but I do think that supporting our hardworking and intelligent classmates is a trait we must carry as physicians (not saying it's a DO vs MD thing anymore).

 

[bobow98]

My program didn't take DOs either. We took some foreign MDs from high power institutions abroad who probably had a ton of research and crazy step scores.
I work with plenty of smart DO's now at one of my hospitals and I usually forget who's MD and who's DO because in the end it doesn't really matter - we are all doctors taking care of patients and trying to do our best.

However, there will always be discrimination when people look at you on paper and they don't know the real you. How else will they separate out people from 5000 applications? I remember being called into my PD's office and shown the list of applicants and PD said hey let's sort by by step failure, and let's get rid of the DO's. Then we added a sort by step score and by school, and then we (myself and a few senior residents) had to go through and say if we remembered any names or knew anyone personally that we should review closely. The process is so arbitrary though and through.

What I've learned is: if you want the best shot to go to a top tier place, go to Harvard, then Harvard med, then Harvard/Penn/Stanford residency, then same for fellowship, and then you can grovel making half wage in return for prestige. OR you can go to the right med school with the best financial deal for you, do your best with testing, learn everything you can, and try to enjoy it and other things along the way, and you'll probably still match somewhere decent and you'll get to take the same stupid boards that cost the same ungodly amount of money to take, and go practice some good medicine and have a good life!

It depends what you're chasing after I suppose. Watching ASCO now and thinking "****, imagine these young investigators trying to toil on some Phase II for the last 3 years and now the culmination of their work is giving a video conference instead of being on the podium like they imagined and dreamed, glad that's not me in that position" really reaffirms my preferences for no longer chasing the prestige.

As I stated above, there is plenty of good medicine outside of the top 5-10 institutions in this country.
Disclaimer: I am at what I would consider a "high" tier institution in this country.

 

[cookiegrub]

My program didn't take DOs either. We took some foreign MDs from high power institutions abroad who probably had a ton of research and crazy step scores.
I work with plenty of smart DO's now at one of my hospitals and I usually forget who's MD and who's DO because in the end it doesn't really matter - we are all doctors taking care of patients and trying to do our best.

However, there will always be discrimination when people look at you on paper and they don't know the real you. How else will they separate out people from 5000 applications? I remember being called into my PD's office and shown the list of applicants and PD said hey let's sort by by step failure, and let's get rid of the DO's. Then we added a sort by step score and by school, and then we (myself and a few senior residents) had to go through and say if we remembered any names or knew anyone personally that we should review closely. The process is so arbitrary though and through.

What I've learned is: if you want the best shot to go to a top tier place, go to Harvard, then Harvard med, then Harvard/Penn/Stanford residency, then same for fellowship, and then you can grovel making half wage in return for prestige. OR you can go to the right med school with the best financial deal for you, do your best with testing, learn everything you can, and try to enjoy it and other things along the way, and you'll probably still match somewhere decent and you'll get to take the same stupid boards that cost the same ungodly amount of money to take, and go practice some good medicine and have a good life!

It depends what you're chasing after I suppose. Watching ASCO now and thinking "****, imagine these young investigators trying to toil on some Phase II for the last 3 years and now the culmination of their work is giving a video conference instead of being on the podium like they imagined and dreamed, glad that's not me in that position" really reaffirms my preferences for no longer chasing the prestige.

As I stated above, there is plenty of good medicine outside of the top 5-10 institutions in this country.
Disclaimer: I am at what I would consider a "high" tier institution in this country.

true but this digs far deeper than having to join academia after residency/fellowship. There are private practice groups that won't select you based on where you've gotten your training from (ie residency is main). I've talked with several DOs in my field who despite having met credentials did feel they were made to work much harder in their group initially to prove their worth. While this is anecdotal, and most people brush it off as perhaps a part of circumstance and such, it is prevalent even in fields that are DO friendly. I can't offer a solution but just that the more the average DO nowadays is representing low-mid tier MD applicants, it is time that there be major changes in the ways we address board examinations. I for one am still confused why DOs taking both sets of medical exams aren't able to get recognition as dual MDs if they sit for Step 3 as well if the difference between DO and MD degree is so significant that it is easier for a low tier MD to enter high tier programs but not a DO from a similar caliber school. Even though at the end my experience tells me that patients can't even tell the difference between a physician and an NP/PA, it matters for highly trained individuals like DOs because at the end of the day we are working towards a medical degree and we often have to work much harder for that. Training extends anywhere from 3-10 years for many, that's a long time to live with "just how things are". It doesn't mean we are trying to get the easy way in to obtain the MD title; sitting for steps isn't a joke.

 

[bobow98]

true but this digs far deeper than having to join academia after residency/fellowship. There are private practice groups that won't select you based on where you've gotten your training from (ie residency is main). I've talked with several DOs in my field who despite having met credentials did feel they were made to work much harder in their group initially to prove their worth. While this is anecdotal, and most people brush it off as perhaps a part of circumstance and such, it is prevalent even in fields that are DO friendly. I can't offer a solution but just that the more the average DO nowadays is representing low-mid tier MD applicants, it is time that there be major changes in the ways we address board examinations. I for one am still confused why DOs taking both sets of medical exams aren't able to get recognition as dual MDs if they sit for Step 3 as well if the difference between DO and MD degree is so significant that it is easier for a low tier MD to enter high tier programs but not a DO from a similar caliber school. Even though at the end my experience tells me that patients can't even tell the difference between a physician and an NP/PA, it matters for highly trained individuals like DOs because at the end of the day we are working towards a medical degree and we often have to work much harder for that. Training extends anywhere from 3-10 years for many, that's a long time to live with "just how things are". It doesn't mean we are trying to get the easy way in to obtain the MD title; sitting for steps isn't a joke.

Just to play the counterpoint, and not that I personally believe this, but what if someone asks - if you want to be an MD why not just go to an MD school?
You are preaching to the choir with me here because I say the same to DNPs and other degrees - if they want to be called doctor, they should go get doctor training, and in my book DO = doctor and MD = doctor.

To equalize things, there has to be 1 governing board for both.
There has to be the same rigor for acceptance to both. There has to be the same screening process for both.
If you apply the same set of criteria for entering students, would the DO and MD schools come out with similar batches of offers going out to the same set of students (I realize there's heavy subjectivity in this). I think part of the issue is that when doctors think DO, they think "this person slacked off and didn't do well in college, or didn't do well on MCAT" whereas in reality, maybe the individual had a previous career in law, or military, or had really interesting experiences. However, until it is proven to be the rule that DO and MD education and underlying substrate (quality of student entering) are equivalent, human tendency for anchoring bias is going to make what you are advocating for very difficult to accomplish.
This anchoring bias is the same thing that causes us to be racist and make asian/Jewish/whatever stereotypes and is harmful in my opinion, and will take a generation of advocacy to change.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Just to play the counterpoint, and not that I personally believe this, but what if someone asks - if you want to be an MD why not just go to an MD school?
You are preaching to the choir with me here because I say the same to DNPs and other degrees - if they want to be called doctor, they should go get doctor training, and in my book DO = doctor and MD = doctor.

To equalize things, there has to be 1 governing board for both.
There has to be the same rigor for acceptance to both. There has to be the same screening process for both.
If you apply the same set of criteria for entering students, would the DO and MD schools come out with similar batches of offers going out to the same set of students (I realize there's heavy subjectivity in this). I think part of the issue is that when doctors think DO, they think "this person slacked off and didn't do well in college, or didn't do well on MCAT" whereas in reality, maybe the individual had a previous career in law, or military, or had really interesting experiences. However, until it is proven to be the rule that DO and MD education and underlying substrate (quality of student entering) are equivalent, human tendency for anchoring bias is going to make what you are advocating for very difficult to accomplish.
This anchoring bias is the same thing that causes us to be racist and make asian/Jewish/whatever stereotypes and is harmful in my opinion, and will take a generation of advocacy to change.

There are MD schools like the ones in PR, the HBCUs, and some state schools like LSU, that have even lower stats for students entering their classes than most DO schools. Yes, in general DO schools have lower stats than MD ones, but I don't think that's a good argument if the end product is the same.

 

[cookiegrub]

Just to play the counterpoint, and not that I personally believe this, but what if someone asks - if you want to be an MD why not just go to an MD school?
You are preaching to the choir with me here because I say the same to DNPs and other degrees - if they want to be called doctor, they should go get doctor training, and in my book DO = doctor and MD = doctor.

To equalize things, there has to be 1 governing board for both.
There has to be the same rigor for acceptance to both. There has to be the same screening process for both.
If you apply the same set of criteria for entering students, would the DO and MD schools come out with similar batches of offers going out to the same set of students (I realize there's heavy subjectivity in this). I think part of the issue is that when doctors think DO, they think "this person slacked off and didn't do well in college, or didn't do well on MCAT" whereas in reality, maybe the individual had a previous career in law, or military, or had really interesting experiences. However, until it is proven to be the rule that DO and MD education and underlying substrate (quality of student entering) are equivalent, human tendency for anchoring bias is going to make what you are advocating for very difficult to accomplish.
This anchoring bias is the same thing that causes us to be racist and make asian/Jewish/whatever stereotypes and is harmful in my opinion, and will take a generation of advocacy to change.

I agree with your points, the fact that they are one in the same degree like [DMD/DDS], but let's be frank about the fact that we are currently not there. The fact that your program and many others simply start their filters at "not DO", proves that even though everyone says at face value DOs can't convert to MDs because they are the same degree but then go to this length of not acknowledging that truth brings about my argument for allowing DOs who do sit for dual examinations to adopt the MD title as well as the DO one.
Additionally, rigor of admission even among MD schools is extremely varied and some have minimums far below a DO school. It is important to note that many DO schools do employ minimums and state it on their website whereas many MD schools don't state it. The easy answer to why not MD is that those applicants didn't get into MD schools but were granted admission to DO schools that far exceeded the cons associated with reapplying or going to the caribbean for the glorified "MD" provided the paths led to the same content of study and ability to practice.
DNP is a far cry from anything remotely to the discussion, the content of their studies is glorified administration studies and more light research; that degree alone is proven to be an ego trip and I pity those who go in debt for it. On the other hand, the DNP degree only proves how outsiders of the MD/DO system are interpreting the ease of being called a "doctor" at whatever the content/quality/expense of that program be to the candidate. Is this not our responsibility to work within our community and create less of a confusion so it's clear the rigorous training of the DO path? Providing a unified board examination is great but then why call our degrees different, what is that doing for our profession? The interesting aspect to this is that DO schools are all located within the US, taught by MDs and DOs alike.

Lastly, this question has never been answered on this forum without leading to miscellaneous talks about other crazy alternative degrees like (doctor of naturopathy or whatever), what incentive is a DO getting in the form of a written certificate of any authenticity that they have sat for Step 1, 2, and 3 besides the precious offer of being considered at brand name programs? Now DOs aren't taking these to show off their insecurity, this is being strongly hinted at and even required by MD programs. But, in what world does someone sit for a set of licensing exams and doesn't obtain any recognition for passing it? I'm not asking that we argue to convert DOs to MDs but just that why is it crazy to think that we cannot try again (I know this happened before) to offer DOs to obtain a dual degree title of MD for their extra work? Isn't this how things work when you go into fellowship/extra training and people are adamant upon adding those extra degrees behind their name? If it truly didn't make a difference to sit for those fellowship exams, then I guess those titles should be dropped just the same right?

 

[bobow98]

I agree with your points, the fact that they are one in the same degree like [DMD/DDS], but let's be frank about the fact that we are currently not there. The fact that your program and many others simply start their filters at "not DO", proves that even though everyone says at face value DOs can't convert to MDs because they are the same degree but then go to this length of not acknowledging that truth brings about my argument for allowing DOs who do sit for dual examinations to adopt the MD title as well as the DO one.
Additionally, rigor of admission even among MD schools is extremely varied and some have minimums far below a DO school. It is important to note that many DO schools do employ minimums and state it on their website whereas many MD schools don't state it. The easy answer to why not MD is that those applicants didn't get into MD schools but were granted admission to DO schools that far exceeded the cons associated with reapplying or going to the caribbean for the glorified "MD" provided the paths led to the same content of study and ability to practice.
DNP is a far cry from anything remotely to the discussion, the content of their studies is glorified administration studies and more light research; that degree alone is proven to be an ego trip and I pity those who go in debt for it. On the other hand, the DNP degree only proves how outsiders of the MD/DO system are interpreting the ease of being called a "doctor" at whatever the content/quality/expense of that program be to the candidate. Is this not our responsibility to work within our community and create less of a confusion so it's clear the rigorous training of the DO path? Providing a unified board examination is great but then why call our degrees different, what is that doing for our profession? The interesting aspect to this is that DO schools are all located within the US, taught by MDs and DOs alike.

Lastly, this question has never been answered on this forum without leading to miscellaneous talks about other crazy alternative degrees like (doctor of naturopathy or whatever), what incentive is a DO getting in the form of a written certificate of any authenticity that they have sat for Step 1, 2, and 3 besides the precious offer of being considered at brand name programs? Now DOs aren't taking these to show off their insecurity, this is being strongly hinted at and even required by MD programs. But, in what world does someone sit for a set of licensing exams and doesn't obtain any recognition for passing it? I'm not asking that we argue to convert DOs to MDs but just that why is it crazy to think that we cannot try again (I know this happened before) to offer DOs to obtain a dual degree title of MD for their extra work? Isn't this how things work when you go into fellowship/extra training and people are adamant upon adding those extra degrees behind their name? If it truly didn't make a difference to sit for those fellowship exams, then I guess those titles should be dropped just the same right?

Good discussion points. Same to the above poster. I for one would favor just offering one doctor of medicine degree, period. I don't care if DO/MD get combined into one, again as long as the end product means good patient care with the same minimum level of training.

 

[eggeggeggegg]

There are MD schools like the ones in PR, the HBCUs, and some state schools like LSU, that have even lower stats for students entering their classes than most DO schools. Yes, in general DO schools have lower stats than MD ones, but I don't think that's a good argument if the end product is the same.

Not a "good" argument, but there's no incentive to change for them to change the system. Because of the competitiveness/desirability of their program, they'll always have more than enough qualified MD applicants. And lets say hypothetically DO was converted to MD, the discrimination happens at every level - it'll still be T20 > non-top 20 schools > previous DO programs.

Or even in general med school admissions, someone who gets 2.5, then 4.0, 4.0, 4.0 still isn't viewed similarly to someone who averaged 3.8 for all 4 years. Arguably, the person who trended upwards has shown at least equal academic competence in the end (well as much as GPA can measure) but schools will favour the 3.8 applicant. When there's that many applicants anything they can use to discriminate between applicants will be used. Another example: USMLE scores, do we think a 240 vs 260 score will produce wildly different outcomes in physicians?? Probably not, yet its still used