heed a cynic's warning on dentistry?+

[AASDDS1]

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hey guys -- all opinions welcome from practicing dentists, recent grads, and those currently in dental school.

After expressing some concern about loans,tuition, the job market, etc for my upcoming four years of dental school, i was put in touch with a contact who dispensed a little advice. it's based off of her husband's experience in the profession thus far. some of this is on point with what i've heard/researched, but some of it seems cynical and exaggerated. i wanted to repost the message and get some opinions:

" -Realize what effect interest and capitalization during deferment and forbearance has on your total balance. My husband's went from owing $282,000 to $338,000 in just 2 years.

- Realize that your tuition and interest rates are not fixed. My husband's tuition and the interest rates on his loans increased during each year of his schooling.

-Realize that getting accepted into a specialty program is not only VERY difficult, but specializing will cost you over $100,000 in addition to the original cost of your dental degree, and will not guarantee that you make more. There are general dentists who make just as much or more than specialists.

-Realize that job competition for general dentists and specialists out there is very high. The amount of new dentists graduating each year is more than the amount of jobs available. The figures about the shortages of dentists are distorted. Very few people are seeking dental care compared to the population figures who *should* be seeking dental care. Very few older dentists are retiring right now. Practically no one is hiring because they don't want to share patients, practically no one is selling their practices and many that are are about to go bankrupt. People also don't like to hire dentists with under 3 years of experience. Many of the career options you think you will have will not be offered to you as a new graduate, and you will lose most jobs you apply to more experienced dentists.

- Realize that the starting salary figures you are being quoted are a complete *lie*. New dentists are really making $30,000-$50,000 their first year, not $80,000-$130,000. Specialists aren't even making that much their first year. We don't know anyone who started that high. Currently the average dentist makes $130,000/year at the pinnacle of their career.

-Realize that you will most likely get paid on commission, not an hourly rate, and that owning your own practice will bring you more income than you can earn as an associate. You will earn 20-30% commission on your collections as an associate. You can earn up to 50% as an owner. However, banks are not lending easily to dentists with under 5 years experience. You can't start a practice from scratch anymore either, you have to buy an existing one with a positive cash flow that can support your debt and your living expenses. There aren't many practices for sale, and many practices that are for sale by retiring dentists have insufficient cash flow due to the economy. Being paid on collections is rough too. You end up doing work for free if it's not collected. Sometimes patients don't pay, there are insurance write-offs, or there is embezzlement. It also takes 60-90 days for most insurance claims to be processed. Almost no one is willing to pay your commission on production, because they risk going bankrupt. There are a *few* jobs that give hourly rate guarantees. The highest we've seen is $75/hour, only available to those with 2-3 years of experience.

-Corporate (non-dentist owned) practices who offer salaries and benefits have high production goals. They want patients in and out. They run their practices like a mill. They don't care about patients or quality of work, they want their profit. They want you to work as fast as you can making them as money as you can. They also have you working under management. You're front desk person will be your boss. They are very controlling and always on your case about the numbers.

-Loan forgiveness plans are not always what they advertise to be. They say *up to* $60K a year. You have to work in an under-served rural population, not in a city. They are also very few and far between, the competition is high, and most actually have very low salaries ($50-$60K/year).

-As a young dentist, many patients will not have much respect for you and will not trust your diagnosis and treatment plans. This will cause you to be less productive, and earn less.

To be honest, I wouldn't encourage anyone to go to dental school and neither would my husband or any of his peers and colleagues. You don't have unlimited job options as new graduating dentist. You think people will want to hire you because your degree is valuable. People don't think you're valuable, they see dentists as a dime a dozen. You think patients will respect you because you're a doctor. No one will respect you until you have years of experience. You will struggle. Every new dentist does. Even many dentists with 5, 10, 20, 30 years of experience are struggling in this economy. Unless the economy improves drastically, things are going to continue to get worse and worse for dentists as more and more graduating dentists are saturating the job market. "

 

[Kahr]

OP, and really to anyone else this dreadful post has discouraged at all, consider looking into a military scholarship.

-Loan forgiveness plans are not always what they advertise to be. They say *up to* $60K a year. You have to work in an under-served rural population, not in a city. They are also very few and far between, the competition is high, and most actually have very low salaries ($50-$60K/year).

This one holds some truth, I even know an individual (a dentist) who participated in this and ended up not even getting any loan forgiveness the first year because of location-based limit on repayment (e.g. only 2 of 3 dentists received the repayment). I would never discourage this option outright, but make sure you read the fine print if you sign up for this.

 

[Stacker]

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/mobile/dentists.htm

Not what the Bureau of Labor and Statistics say. 21% growth, >150,000 employed, +32,000 in jobs, and >$142,000 in median pay.

"Employment of dentists is not expected to keep pace with the increased demand for dental services." This is both sad and good in that there are people who do not have access to dental services and there is a healthy demand for more dentists.

If the next generation of dentists don't address the disparity in access to dental care regardless of whatever medicare or medicaid reimbursements, or the lack thereof, we can kiss our traditional way of entrepreneurial practice and unity as dental professionals good-bye. Therapists are going to fill the lack and the public opinion of lower socioeconomic groups will sway towards therapist's autonomy. Dentistry will be further divided.

 

[suarez 7]

- Realize that your tuition and interest rates are not fixed. My husband's tuition and the interest rates on his loans increased during each year of his schooling.

With federal loans? Doubt it, as they have fixed interest rates. If your husband got a private loan, then he got screwed, but this is not the case with most students.




- Realize that the starting salary figures you are being quoted are a complete *lie*. New dentists are really making $30,000-$50,000 their first year, not $80,000-$130,000. Specialists aren't even making that much their first year. We don't know anyone who started that high. Currently the average dentist makes $130,000/year at the pinnacle of their career.

30k? That's what an assistant makes. If that's the salary of a dentist, then I'd like to know the real salary of an assistant or hygienist. "

Fair enough, but for many of us there's no way we can switch career paths. We just have to hope for the best.

I always wonder, though, if the market is as bad as these forums make it to be, how come we aren't seeing dentists/ new grads out here posting about how crap their jobs are, and telling us their experience? A good percentage of dental students and recent grads know about SDN and know that these forums exist and in this day and age everyone has internet access, so where are they? The OP has an anecdotal piece, but this entire forum does not have more than a few of those.
1) Most of them are satisfied/content with their jobs so they don't have anything to complain about.
2) They hate their jobs, unemployed, or underpaid but they feel that venting on an online forum is not worth their time.

Let's face it, most of these pessimist and sky-is-falling threads are created by pre-dents or dental students and occasionally an opinion gets tossed in by an established dentist, but most of us don't have a clue what's going on and what the future holds in dentistry. Don't get me wrong, these threads create good discussion and hopefully undergrads will begin to think twice before setting on this career paths.
There's a lot of issues going on in dentistry right now, and I think we just have to evolve like every industry in this economy.

 

[Parklife]

Fair enough, but for many of us there's no way we can switch career paths. We just have to hope for the best.

I always wonder, though, if the market is as bad as these forums make it to be, how come we aren't seeing dentists/ new grads out here posting about how crap their jobs are, and telling us their experience? A good percentage of dental students and recent grads know about SDN and know that these forums exist and in this day and age everyone has internet access, so where are they? The OP has an anecdotal piece, but this entire forum does not have more than a few of those.
1) Most of them are satisfied/content with their jobs so they don't have anything to complain about.
2) They hate their jobs, unemployed, or underpaid but they feel that venting on an online forum is not worth their time.

Let's face it, most of these pessimist and sky-is-falling threads are created by pre-dents or dental students and occasionally an opinion gets tossed in by an established dentist, but most of us don't have a clue what's going on and what the future holds in dentistry. Don't get me wrong, these threads create good discussion and hopefully undergrads will begin to think twice before setting on this career paths.
There's a lot of issues going on in dentistry right now, and I think we just have to evolve like every industry in this economy.

Guilty..

1+ to not having that much negativity from DENTISTS. Have you visited the pharmacy board? I think it's a problem when pharmacists, young grads, and students have 1000+ posts on SDN and half of those posts go towards warning pre-pharms away.

 

[7 Iron]

Fair enough, but for many of us there's no way we can switch career paths. We just have to hope for the best.

I always wonder, though, if the market is as bad as these forums make it to be, how come we aren't seeing dentists/ new grads out here posting about how crap their jobs are, and telling us their experience? A good percentage of dental students and recent grads know about SDN and know that these forums exist and in this day and age everyone has internet access, so where are they? The OP has an anecdotal piece, but this entire forum does not have more than a few of those.
1) Most of them are satisfied/content with their jobs so they don't have anything to complain about.
2) They hate their jobs, unemployed, or underpaid but they feel that venting on an online forum is not worth their time.

Let's face it, most of these pessimist and sky-is-falling threads are created by pre-dents or dental students and occasionally an opinion gets tossed in by an established dentist, but most of us don't have a clue what's going on and what the future holds in dentistry. Don't get me wrong, these threads create good discussion and hopefully undergrads will begin to think twice before setting on this career paths.
There's a lot of issues going on in dentistry right now, and I think we just have to evolve like every industry in this economy.

There are many more dentists on dentaltown forums. I would recommend everyone should read on that board too. You'll get some negativity there too but also there are plenty of established dentists there who love practicing dentistry and would do it all over again if they had to.

 

[artvandelay786]

I'm usually quite cynical and skeptical of anyone telling me that dentistry will be the perfect career. However, I do feel that some of the assertions that you make border on the unreasonable.

I'm not in dental school but I assume that a fair amount of dental students from each class specialize. I would guess about 10-20%. So perhaps it is relatively difficult to get into a high-paying specialty. But I would say the same for medicine: not everyone gets into radiology, dermatology or orthopedic surgery.

Secondly, while the job market may be saturated in certain metropolitan areas, saturation is most certainly not the case in most places in the US. Sure, if you move to NYC or LA, there's going to be a lot of dentists. But I know several new dentists who have opened up practices in places like Dallas and San Antonio, who are doing very well. In addition, do you not realize why dental therapists are being increasingly employed? It's because most rural areas are *undersaturated.*

The day that dentists start out at 30-50K will be a cold day in hell. I don't know if you forgot to add in a one behind those figures (130-150K sounds more like it), but I don't know of a single dentist who has graduated and reports making less than 100K. Earning a rigorous doctoral-level degree in Dental Surgery will never net as much as someone who gets a two-year associates in dental assisting at a community college.

As for respect, go ask any ER doc or any primary care physician (especially one that operates in a middle class or lower-middle class area) how much respect they get from their patients. If you're going into a profession so people will "respect" you, then what does that say about your self-esteem?

Just curious -- if you are so anti-dentistry, then why in the world are you pre-dental?

 

[MaceG1]

I call BS on this post.

 

[AASDDS1]

As i stated in the original post, this is advice I have gotten from the wife of a dentist.

I am pre dental, starting school in 3 weeks, and looking up.

 

[Kahr]

As i stated in the original post, this is advice I have gotten from the wife of a dentist.

I am pre dental, starting school in 3 weeks, and looking up.

So even before we provided any opinions, you were still convinced dentistry was your best option?

I'm interested to hear your thoughts after you were given this advice. You put out quite a scathing set of criticisms by someone else, I think it's only fair that you also share, this might perhaps counter the negativity of your original post to some extent. 🙂

 

[Boat on the Chesapeake]

It's possible the $30-50k figure might be referring to first year's tax returns, not first 12 months of work. If you graduate in May and have paperwork/licensing/locking in a job into the summer...that only leaves 6 months or so of income on a new dentist's tax return.

 

[Parklife]

Interesting cases being made in the pharmacy forum(arguably the health profession with the most turmoil right now)

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=12863869#post12863869

Will retiring of the baby boomers be a boon for dentistry too?

 

[beannaithe]

I call BS on this post.

There is a modicum of truth in the post from the OP. It is extremely cynical and doomsday, but there is truth there.

I graduated 2 years ago, did a GPR and worked in private practice for one year. Currently, I am switching jobs and finalizing employment at another private practice. When I looked for jobs this time around, there was a stipulation for experience on many posting. Few places had an invitation that read "new grads welcome to apply." When I was finishing residency, most offices were asking for one year of experience (a lot of offices don't qualify a GPR or AEGD as experience, which is stupid). Nowadays, the ads are asking for two+ years of experience. Most places pay on a percent of collections with some offering a minimum guarantee and others not.

The salary figures are WAY off though, unless they are saying what you take home after taxes. It also depends on location. I made less then 100k last year working 32 hours and I was salaried. I have a few friends who are also taking in less then 100k pre-tax. Perhaps it has something to do with location or the job market where you are. I have had people tell me to move to a less saturated location to make more money. But for some people, like myself, that is not an option. For a new grad, I think an appropriate salary range is likely $70k - $110k depending on where you are working and the type of office that you are in. Remember when you start, you are slow and if you're being paid on commission, you will not make nearly as much as you will when you are more experience. Additionally, you need to think about the type of environment that you will end up in. I worked in an office with a lot of technology and they trained me. So the experience was worth the paycut. Sadly with student loan commitments, I don't know if new dentists will have the luxury of choosing that pays less to learn.

Student loans are the biggest problem and the increase in cost is getting out of control. Since I started, tuition has risen 20% at my alma mater and the percentage for loans has gone up nearly 2%. I consolidated my loans and have 30 years to pay it off. But I still try to pay 2-3x what the minimum payment is because my monthly accrued interest is equal to my monthly payments!! So budget tightly, live below your means and pay them off as soon as possible. Definitely do the federal loans, stay away from anything with a variable rate and budget like crazy in dental school.

If you're doing repayment through a program, make sure the site that you apply for is actually an FQHC and that you're not working in a private office and apply for money. I have two friends doing this, they are paid well, given a nice chunk of money for loan forgiveness, and good benefits.

Military is also an option, but remember that you are signing over 4+ years of your life to have them pay for school.

As for buying an office, there are a lot of limitations being placed on banks lending money due to some dental offices going bankrupt. Thankfully, it is still rare but there are start ups that have a hard time. Also, if you are looking in a saturated area (think California, NYC, etc) the cost of a practice is higher and some banks are not likely to give someone with high student loan debt a huge loan that has to be paid off within 7 years.

As far as patients not accepting you as a new grad, it definitely is true. It's difficult to have patients respect you when you're brand new to an office. Respect is earned, not freely given in some incidences. Usually patients don't warm up to you right away unless you treat their emergency (take away pain and they LOVE you), you see them for their very first visit, or you see them in hygiene a couple of times.

The current job market/financial crisis was truly an eye opener for me. When I started school, dentistry was a great career with unlimited potential and an overabudence of jobs. After the economy tanked in 2008, the job climate for everyone changed. These days it is still doable, but with the current cost of education you need to weigh your loans and repayment with the future financial climate. If you're looking at a minimum loan repayment of $3k+ a month, it could potentially be financial suicide unless you have a family member in dentistry or know exactly what you're going to do when you come out.

I'm trying to give you as realistic a view as possible. Dentistry is still a good career, I challenge you to find any job that pays as well for someone who is only 26. Hours are decent (you can earn a comfortable income on part-time). Though time will only tell how the job market rebounds as the economy does...

 

[Parklife]

There is a modicum of truth in the post from the OP. It is extremely cynical and doomsday, but there is truth there.

I graduated 2 years ago, did a GPR and worked in private practice for one year. Currently, I am switching jobs and finalizing employment at another private practice. When I looked for jobs this time around, there was a stipulation for experience on many posting. Few places had an invitation that read "new grads welcome to apply." When I was finishing residency, most offices were asking for one year of experience (a lot of offices don't qualify a GPR or AEGD as experience, which is stupid). Nowadays, the ads are asking for two+ years of experience. Most places pay on a percent of collections with some offering a minimum guarantee and others not.

The salary figures are WAY off though, unless they are saying what you take home after taxes. It also depends on location. I made less then 100k last year working 32 hours and I was salaried. I have a few friends who are also taking in less then 100k pre-tax. Perhaps it has something to do with location or the job market where you are. I have had people tell me to move to a less saturated location to make more money. But for some people, like myself, that is not an option. For a new grad, I think an appropriate salary range is likely $70k - $110k depending on where you are working and the type of office that you are in. Remember when you start, you are slow and if you're being paid on commission, you will not make nearly as much as you will when you are more experience. Additionally, you need to think about the type of environment that you will end up in. I worked in an office with a lot of technology and they trained me. So the experience was worth the paycut. Sadly with student loan commitments, I don't know if new dentists will have the luxury of choosing that pays less to learn.

Student loans are the biggest problem and the increase in cost is getting out of control. Since I started, tuition has risen 20% at my alma mater and the percentage for loans has gone up nearly 2%. I consolidated my loans and have 30 years to pay it off. But I still try to pay 2-3x what the minimum payment is because my monthly accrued interest is equal to my monthly payments!! So budget tightly, live below your means and pay them off as soon as possible. Definitely do the federal loans, stay away from anything with a variable rate and budget like crazy in dental school.

If you're doing repayment through a program, make sure the site that you apply for is actually an FQHC and that you're not working in a private office and apply for money. I have two friends doing this, they are paid well, given a nice chunk of money for loan forgiveness, and good benefits.

Military is also an option, but remember that you are signing over 4+ years of your life to have them pay for school.

As for buying an office, there are a lot of limitations being placed on banks lending money due to some dental offices going bankrupt. Thankfully, it is still rare but there are start ups that have a hard time. Also, if you are looking in a saturated area (think California, NYC, etc) the cost of a practice is higher and some banks are not likely to give someone with high student loan debt a huge loan that has to be paid off within 7 years.

As far as patients not accepting you as a new grad, it definitely is true. It's difficult to have patients respect you when you're brand new to an office. Respect is earned, not freely given in some incidences. Usually patients don't warm up to you right away unless you treat their emergency (take away pain and they LOVE you), you see them for their very first visit, or you see them in hygiene a couple of times.

The current job market/financial crisis was truly an eye opener for me. When I started school, dentistry was a great career with unlimited potential and an overabudence of jobs. After the economy tanked in 2008, the job climate for everyone changed. These days it is still doable, but with the current cost of education you need to weigh your loans and repayment with the future financial climate. If you're looking at a minimum loan repayment of $3k+ a month, it could potentially be financial suicide unless you have a family member in dentistry or know exactly what you're going to do when you come out.

I'm trying to give you as realistic a view as possible. Dentistry is still a good career, I challenge you to find any job that pays as well for someone who is only 26. Hours are decent (you can earn a comfortable income on part-time). Though time will only tell how the job market rebounds as the economy does...

Could you give a take on my comment regarding babyboomers? Also, corporate dentistry and dental therapists(2010 survey that states DT give equal results compared to a dentist - I posted a thread on that too)

 

[uthscsaalum]

I think you have to earn the trust of your patients and this is a skill that is easy for some of us but not easy for others.

As far as 30-50K is concerned, I earned 30K in my first two months, not twelve. I don't want people to think that is typical, but if we are going to base a thread on anecdotal evidence of doom and gloom I think I probably should point out that there are still opportunities to make good money as an associate with no family/friend connections to dentistry.

The loans do suck. Even making good money as a young dentist it is very hard to part with such a huge amount of hard earned money every month and pay such a high interest rate when people buy houses at half that rate. You also get no deductions for it above a certain income level.

 

[Lethstang]

Current dental student here. Lots of friends in the industry. Spend alot of time on DT. In my humble opinion, you can find a nice paying job if youre willing to move anywhere in the usa. If not well, your mileage may vary.

 

[Parklife]

current dental student here. Lots of friends in the industry. Spend alot of time on dt. In my humble opinion, you can find a nice paying job if youre willing to move anywhere in the usa. If not well, your mileage may vary.

dt?

 

[wigglytooth]

dt?

dental town

 

[Parklife]

dental town

Ah. Makes more sense. 😀

 

[jle3030]

Don't knock the dental wife's post. She's spot on. There are, and always have been, good opportunities in dentistry. There is a lot to be said for being your own boss. But it's getting harder and harder.

I've seen young dentists apply for dental hygiene positions, because it would be a step up from where they were at at the time.

The two biggest name dentists in our city are arguably the two biggest charlatans. The rest of us see their former patients on the rebound, so we know whereof we speak. There are a lot of naked emperors out here, folks.

My brother is doing well in big corporate dentistry. He went bankrupt in a group and almost bankrupt again in solo practice. Now his assistants do almost everything. 25 to 45 patients in a six hour shift. Twelve hours if one of the other Docs is out of the office. If the quality sucks, it goes out the door anyway. He told me "You do need to reconsider what constitutes clinical acceptability." He was more blunt with my sister. "I've been broke once and almost broke a second time trying to do it right. The public has spoken. They want it cheap. If I'm going to be a *****, I'm going to be a well paid *****."

What percentage of dentists would never have entered the profession if they had known what it is really like? Darned if I know. I've read studies. The lowest percentage was 54% of those polled who said they would not do it all again, knowing what they know now. The highest percentage was 74%. And those were the ones willing to admit it to an anonymous pollster. Almost nobody admits to something like that one-on-one, except to another dentist who they know very well.

Don't think so? Neither did we when we were your age.

I'm not going to burn up a lot of bandwidth with a bunch of horror stories that "would never happen to you". I'll just recommend that you hang out on the Dentaltown Message board and soak up all you can. That's not just a bunch of downers bitching together; that is the real world.

 

[Halcion]

I am a dentist, and have been practicing for almost 2 years. I worked a short time in private practice and have since worked in a corporation, mainly because it was the only job that was going to give me the patients and the experience I needed as a new grad. Although not everything is great about my job in corporate dentistry, it is much better than I could have ever anticipated. It gave me ample experience, and if nothing else, I learned how to get faster and more efficient. With that being said, I am going to chime in my two cents on this post.

hey guys -- all opinions welcome from practicing dentists, recent grads, and those currently in dental school.

After expressing some concern about loans,tuition, the job market, etc for my upcoming four years of dental school, i was put in touch with a contact who dispensed a little advice. it's based off of her husband's experience in the profession thus far. some of this is on point with what i've heard/researched, but some of it seems cynical and exaggerated. i wanted to repost the message and get some opinions:

" -Realize what effect interest and capitalization during deferment and forbearance has on your total balance. My husband's went from owing $282,000 to $338,000 in just 2 years.
This is exactly why if given an option, go to the cheapest dental school you get into. I graduated dental school with $170k in debt and found it hard to manage making payments at times because I am paid on a percent of production. My loan payments are roughly $1300/mo and I pay more when I can. When you get to school, live like a student. And when you get out of school, live like a student, at least for the first couple years until you get on your feet financially.

- Realize that your tuition and interest rates are not fixed. My husband's tuition and the interest rates on his loans increased during each year of his schooling.

My interest rates were fixed at 6.8%. I did not take out any private loans. Again, if given an option, go to the cheapest school so you hopefully don't have to take out any private loans where interest rates are higher and may be variable.

-Realize that getting accepted into a specialty program is not only VERY difficult, but specializing will cost you over $100,000 in addition to the original cost of your dental degree, and will not guarantee that you make more. There are general dentists who make just as much or more than specialists.

I applied to pediatric dentistry programs, and although I love treating children, I consider it a blessing that I was not accepted. Unless you get into a stipend-based program, which are very competitive, it will be quite a bit of money spent on additional education, and quite a bit of money lost on potential income. Granted, there are specialists who do very well, but until the economy picks up, specialists will struggle for referrals because more general dentists are keeping things in office (i.e. molar endo, surgical extractions, difficult to manage kids, etc) With that being said, the economy will pick back up, and we inevitably need specialists because there are procedures in dentistry that general dentists have no desire to do, or do not have the training to do.

-Realize that job competition for general dentists and specialists out there is very high. The amount of new dentists graduating each year is more than the amount of jobs available. The figures about the shortages of dentists are distorted. Very few people are seeking dental care compared to the population figures who *should* be seeking dental care. Very few older dentists are retiring right now. Practically no one is hiring because they don't want to share patients, practically no one is selling their practices and many that are are about to go bankrupt. People also don't like to hire dentists with under 3 years of experience. Many of the career options you think you will have will not be offered to you as a new graduate, and you will lose most jobs you apply to more experienced dentists.

Very few older dentists are retiring. Competition for jobs exists in dentistry, and it exists in other jobs as well. It depends on the area as well. When I was looking for job change in the fall because work had slowed down quite a bit, I put feelers out for different jobs and had 4 interviews in a week. I was offered two of the four jobs before staying with my current job by re-negotiating a contract. I feel that a lot of jobs in dentistry are based on who you know. Network. Go to your state dental meetings as a student and network. Get to know dentists. Get to know the upperclassmen while you are in school. They can be a point of reference when you graduate.

- Realize that the starting salary figures you are being quoted are a complete *lie*. New dentists are really making $30,000-$50,000 their first year, not $80,000-$130,000. Specialists aren't even making that much their first year. We don't know anyone who started that high. Currently the average dentist makes $130,000/year at the pinnacle of their career.

Not true. My first full year out (Jan 2012 to Dec 2012) I made just shy of $120k AND I live in a major metropolitan area. Is it an exception, maybe, maybe not. I have heard from many of my colleagues, that average starting salaries for general dentists is anywhere from $80k to $125k. This is the range I have heard for full-time (32+ hours). Obviously there will be outliers. Also, after taxes I was left with $75-80k. After my loan payments I was left with around $55k. After rent, roughly $43k. Add malpractice and disability insurance, health insurance, car payment, etc. and it is easily in the 30s. Oh, and I couldn't write any of my loan interest off on my taxes because my income was too high, and it will be for majority of dentists unless you make $75k or less.

-Realize that you will most likely get paid on commission, not an hourly rate, and that owning your own practice will bring you more income than you can earn as an associate. You will earn 20-30% commission on your collections as an associate. You can earn up to 50% as an owner. However, banks are not lending easily to dentists with under 5 years experience. You can't start a practice from scratch anymore either, you have to buy an existing one with a positive cash flow that can support your debt and your living expenses. There aren't many practices for sale, and many practices that are for sale by retiring dentists have insufficient cash flow due to the economy. Being paid on collections is rough too. You end up doing work for free if it's not collected. Sometimes patients don't pay, there are insurance write-offs, or there is embezzlement. It also takes 60-90 days for most insurance claims to be processed. Almost no one is willing to pay your commission on production, because they risk going bankrupt. There are a *few* jobs that give hourly rate guarantees. The highest we've seen is $75/hour, only available to those with 2-3 years of experience.

This all depends on where you work. And I know several people who are doing startups right now, some only a few months out, some a couple years out, and all are doing better than they were as associates. If you can find the right practice to buy though, it is probably a better option as you will have some sort of cash flow, a patient base, and experienced staff.

-Corporate (non-dentist owned) practices who offer salaries and benefits have high production goals. They want patients in and out. They run their practices like a mill. They don't care about patients or quality of work, they want their profit. They want you to work as fast as you can making them as money as you can. They also have you working under management. You're front desk person will be your boss. They are very controlling and always on your case about the numbers.

True to an extent. I think it depends on the corporation you work for, but truth is, they need you more than you need them. They can try to tell you what to do all they want, but the truth is, it all comes down to it being your license. And doing anything that you don't feel comfortable doing, whether it be how they "want" you to diagnose and treatment plan, or how fast they want you to work, etc, it's your license, and they typically back off when you mention that.

-Loan forgiveness plans are not always what they advertise to be. They say *up to* $60K a year. You have to work in an under-served rural population, not in a city. They are also very few and far between, the competition is high, and most actually have very low salaries ($50-$60K/year).

They do have low salaries, but you are getting paid in addition to getting loan forgiveness. I looked into a few of these programs and decided I couldn't live in that rural of an area, but if you do get the loan forgiveness, you are getting a certain amount paid toward your loans already, and you are getting paid, so you can put more toward your loans if you choose to, having your loans paid off much faster.

-As a young dentist, many patients will not have much respect for you and will not trust your diagnosis and treatment plans. This will cause you to be less productive, and earn less.

The only thing causing you to be less productive is being slow at the beginning. Once you get your speed and efficiency up, as long as the patients are there, it shouldn't be a problem.What causes people to be less productive is when patient flow is down because the economy is down and you can't even get a patient in the chair to do an exam.

To be honest, I wouldn't encourage anyone to go to dental school and neither would my husband or any of his peers and colleagues. You don't have unlimited job options as new graduating dentist. You think people will want to hire you because your degree is valuable. People don't think you're valuable, they see dentists as a dime a dozen. You think patients will respect you because you're a doctor. No one will respect you until you have years of experience. You will struggle. Every new dentist does. Even many dentists with 5, 10, 20, 30 years of experience are struggling in this economy. Unless the economy improves drastically, things are going to continue to get worse and worse for dentists as more and more graduating dentists are saturating the job market. "

I would think long and hard about spending more than $250k to become a dentist. Tuition is outrageous and it keeps increasing. I am fortunate that I went to a state school. There is no way I would spend the kind of money that some schools expect people to spend. It's ludicrous. Dentistry is great, but I don't think any profession is worth that much money. Dentistry is going through a tough time right now. So is medicine. So is interior design. So is real estate. Any job that is dependent on the economy is struggling right now. It is not always going to be that way. The economy goes up and down. Dentistry has busy and slow times of the year all the time. It's typically busy in the summer, and it slows down once school starts, picks back up again in December with people wanting to use their insurance benefits, flex spending accounts, etc. Even though it may take some time for the economy to turn around, dentistry is still a great profession.

 

[suarez 7]

I am a dentist, and have been practicing for almost 2 years. I worked a short time in private practice and have since worked in a corporation, mainly because it was the only job that was going to give me the patients and the experience I needed as a new grad. Although not everything is great about my job in corporate dentistry, it is much better than I could have ever anticipated. It gave me ample experience, and if nothing else, I learned how to get faster and more efficient. With that being said, I am going to chime in my two cents on this post.



I would think long and hard about spending more than $250k to become a dentist. Tuition is outrageous and it keeps increasing. I am fortunate that I went to a state school. There is no way I would spend the kind of money that some schools expect people to spend. It's ludicrous. Dentistry is great, but I don't think any profession is worth that much money. Dentistry is going through a tough time right now. So is medicine. So is interior design. So is real estate. Any job that is dependent on the economy is struggling right now. It is not always going to be that way. The economy goes up and down. Dentistry has busy and slow times of the year all the time. It's typically busy in the summer, and it slows down once school starts, picks back up again in December with people wanting to use their insurance benefits, flex spending accounts, etc. Even though it may take some time for the economy to turn around, dentistry is still a great profession.

Why did you pay nearly ~$40k in taxes? That can't be right, without any deductibles and with a state tax of 5%, taxes should be about ~$26k according to some online calculators. Unless I am missing something

 

[tingting]

Why did you pay nearly ~$40k in taxes? That can't be right, without any deductibles and with a state tax of 5%, taxes should be about ~$26k according to some online calculators. Unless I am missing something

Did you figure payroll taxes? He's probably an independent contractor paying the 15.3% social security and medicare tax grab on his first $113k. (The medicare 2.9% continues on everything past $113k as well)

As far as this thread goes... the salaries in the original post seem low... everything else is pretty accurate. Dentists are a dime a dozen in all the metro areas.

 

[HupHolland]

Don't knock the dental wife's post. She's spot on. There are, and always have been, good opportunities in dentistry. There is a lot to be said for being your own boss. But it's getting harder and harder.

I've seen young dentists apply for dental hygiene positions, because it would be a step up from where they were at at the time.

The two biggest name dentists in our city are arguably the two biggest charlatans. The rest of us see their former patients on the rebound, so we know whereof we speak. There are a lot of naked emperors out here, folks.

My brother is doing well in big corporate dentistry. He went bankrupt in a group and almost bankrupt again in solo practice. Now his assistants do almost everything. 25 to 45 patients in a six hour shift. Twelve hours if one of the other Docs is out of the office. If the quality sucks, it goes out the door anyway. He told me "You do need to reconsider what constitutes clinical acceptability." He was more blunt with my sister. "I've been broke once and almost broke a second time trying to do it right. The public has spoken. They want it cheap. If I'm going to be a *****, I'm going to be a well paid *****."

What percentage of dentists would never have entered the profession if they had known what it is really like? Darned if I know. I've read studies. The lowest percentage was 54% of those polled who said they would not do it all again, knowing what they know now. The highest percentage was 74%. And those were the ones willing to admit it to an anonymous pollster. Almost nobody admits to something like that one-on-one, except to another dentist who they know very well.

Don't think so? Neither did we when we were your age.

I'm not going to burn up a lot of bandwidth with a bunch of horror stories that "would never happen to you". I'll just recommend that you hang out on the Dentaltown Message board and soak up all you can. That's not just a bunch of downers bitching together; that is the real world.

No disrespect, but your bother is what's wrong with dentistry. It's totally possible to do quality dentistry and still bring home a respectable income. Just because his business/people/clinical skills Blow (with a capital B), doesn't give him the right to be a *****. But to each there own. I couldn't sleep at night doing that...

Hup

 

[Halcion]

Did you figure payroll taxes? He's probably an independent contractor paying the 15.3% social security and medicare tax grab on his first $113k. (The medicare 2.9% continues on everything past $113k as well)

As far as this thread goes... the salaries in the original post seem low... everything else is pretty accurate. Dentists are a dime a dozen in all the metro areas.

Spot on.