Help and Advice please? I'm really frustrated, but I don't want to quit when I'm so close...

[ImGoingCrazy@_@]

I apologize in advance for the really long post/rant. I'm really at my wits end, and I feel like people on this forum may have gone through something similar. I'm hoping that you would have the best advice for me..

In January, I was told to schedule a defense date (which I did). Then, a week or so before my dissertation is due, I get called into my PI's office and told "I'm worried your committee will fail you, you need a couple weeks to write some more". So I get advice from my committee (and show them what I'd written). Two of them thought I'd be fine. The other two thought I could do a bit more "finesse" on the writing. So I went merrily on and decided to move my defense date back. I figured I had a few weeks before third year started, so I might as well take the time. Then I get called into my PI's office again, and now I'm told to write about a whole other field that's tangential to the work in my dissertation, and that this new field has to get incorporated into every chapter.
I'm starting to wonder if my PI is purposely doing this to make sure I can't return to third year? None of my papers are submitted yet (also on my PI's desk), despite attending national meetings and having people ask where it was published. I feel like my work is being held hostage?
The other problem is that certain people on my committee have issues with MD/PhDs in general (which I didn't know at the time). Now the department also has a track record with having problems with MD/PhD students trying to graduate in 4 years (when I joined the department, there were a few MD/PhD students in it, but all in the middle of graduate school.. they all ended up taking longer than 4 years).
My PD knows about the issue, but at the moment, can't do anything about it since I still do have a bit of writing (from those committee comments).
I'm worried that even if my committee is ok with me leaving, they won't let me if my PI refuses. If I tried to force the issue, I might be able to get 3/5 votes, but the other one is tied pretty well to my PI. I feel like my only options are: (1) stay for a 5th year, and pray that the current situation doesn't repeat itself next April, or (2) quit the PhD program and just go back to 3rd year without the degree. I feel like I've done enough work for the degree (and based on my committee letter from last year, they would agree). I really don't want to have nothing to show for the last four years..

Do I have another option? .. Any advice would be GREATLY appreciated!

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[parapraxish]

I apologize in advance for the really long post/rant. I'm really at my wits end, and I feel like people on this forum may have gone through something similar. I'm hoping that you would have the best advice for me..

In January, I was told to schedule a defense date (which I did). Then, a week or so before my dissertation is due, I get called into my PI's office and told "I'm worried your committee will fail you, you need a couple weeks to write some more". So I get advice from my committee (and show them what I'd written). Two of them thought I'd be fine. The other two thought I could do a bit more "finesse" on the writing. So I went merrily on and decided to move my defense date back. I figured I had a few weeks before third year started, so I might as well take the time. Then I get called into my PI's office again, and now I'm told to write about a whole other field that's tangential to the work in my dissertation, and that this new field has to get incorporated into every chapter.
I'm starting to wonder if my PI is purposely doing this to make sure I can't return to third year? None of my papers are submitted yet (also on my PI's desk), despite attending national meetings and having people ask where it was published. I feel like my work is being held hostage?
The other problem is that certain people on my committee have issues with MD/PhDs in general (which I didn't know at the time). Now the department also has a track record with having problems with MD/PhD students trying to graduate in 4 years (when I joined the department, there were a few MD/PhD students in it, but all in the middle of graduate school.. they all ended up taking longer than 4 years).
My PD knows about the issue, but at the moment, can't do anything about it since I still do have a bit of writing (from those committee comments).
I'm worried that even if my committee is ok with me leaving, they won't let me if my PI refuses. If I tried to force the issue, I might be able to get 3/5 votes, but the other one is tied pretty well to my PI. I feel like my only options are: (1) stay for a 5th year, and pray that the current situation doesn't repeat itself next April, or (2) quit the PhD program and just go back to 3rd year without the degree. I feel like I've done enough work for the degree (and based on my committee letter from last year, they would agree). I really don't want to have nothing to show for the last four years..

Do I have another option? .. Any advice would be GREATLY appreciated!

Sometimes you just gotta do another year I guess.

 

[StIGMA]

Talk to your MD/PhD director.

Do you have rotations scheduled? Tell your PI they cannot be changed and you must finish before then. Kick the person who you don't think will vote for you off the committee and pick someone else (someone in your MD/PhD program circle if necessary). Stand your ground that you must finish and don't waiver.

Good luck.

 

[solitude]

Talk to your MD/PhD director.

Do you have rotations scheduled? Tell your PI they cannot be changed and you must finish before then. Kick the person who you don't think will vote for you off the committee and pick someone else (someone in your MD/PhD program circle if necessary). Stand your ground that you must finish and don't waiver.

Good luck.

this is good advice. Ignore the poster who said you just gotta do another year. I would encourage you to talk to your MSTP director ASAP. Also talk to the sympathetic committee members now. If this fails, you may need to move it up the chain (director of your graduate program or even dean of the graduate school), and if push comes to shove you may need to even get nasty. IMO you will be better served by burning bridges and graduating than by staying another year. That is how strongly I feel that MSTPs should graduate on time.

 

[Shifty B]

The final, and perhaps most important, step of doing a PhD is pushing through your own defense. That is, having the confidence and ability to overcome some reservations of your committee members, or even your PI, is the critical step.

You have to do what it takes to make this happen. Start by talking to your MD/PhD program director. They can often work with your committee to help smooth things over. Second, you can approach one of your other committee members who you expect will support you and explain the situation. This may be the person who is external to the department. Part of the role of the committee is to protect you from unfair expectations of your PI, who benefits immensely from having a highly skilled laborer around an extra year. Third, when you make your presentation for your defense, carefully lay out at each step what your plan was, what you did, and what your outcome was. Think of it as being a trial lawyer. You are presenting the case that you are ready to graduate.

Finally, you may have to call their bluff and tell them you're going back to medical school. Before you do this, you have to be willing to do it though, so it should be a last resort. If you've done everything that's expected of you so far, it's unlikely that they will let you come to that.

It's a little too late for you, but this underscores the importance of having regular committee meetings and at each one describing exactly what your plan is, how far you've gotten, and what you plan to do next. Then, when you get to this point it is clear that these new requirements are completely out of the blue and unreasonable.

 

[ImGoingCrazy@_@]

Thank you all for the great advice!
I have a few weeks left, so I'm going to first edit like hell through what I have written now, and then time permitting, try to accommodate as much of my PI's request as possible. I feel like I made a huge mistake early on: (1) not checking if my PI had graduated students previously, and (2) picking a committee based on the research and not who would support my career trajectory and help me get out in 4 years..
I did talk to my PD, and the suggestion was to edit what I've got for the next few weeks. If my PI still won't let me defend, then we will bring the issue up with the dean. I'm hoping it doesn't come to that...

 

[gbwillner]

I'm starting to wonder if my PI is purposely doing this to make sure I can't return to third year? None of my papers are submitted yet (also on my PI's desk), despite attending national meetings and having people ask where it was published. I feel like my work is being held hostage?

Not to be a contrarian on this thread but... What possible motive would your PI have for holding you back? I feel like we are only getting a biased view here of what is going on.

I would argue that if you haven't published any works- you probably are unfit to graduate with a PhD. If these are YOUR projects and YOU are writing the papers- then who better than YOU to understand why they have not yet been published? How exactly is your PI holding you hostage (and to what end)? Are you really saying that you've written the manuscripts and gave them to your PI 6 months ago and he/she just hasn't bothered to read them? If that is true then I agree with the others that you need an intervention. But I find that hard to believe.

What is your career goal? Is it to do basic science research in academia? If so, you need those papers, and it will be difficult to complete any of your works once you are back in clinics. I left my academic job with a project 99% done that just needed to be written up and submitted and thought I could do it from my current role... I still haven't completed it and it's been 2 years.

If you goal is to go into clinical practice only, then who cares about the PhD? I would then agree with Shifty and just threaten to bail. you either get your way, or you don't. Either way you win because you are back in med school.

Good luck.

 

[ImGoingCrazy@_@]

Not to be a contrarian on this thread but... What possible motive would your PI have for holding you back? I feel like we are only getting a biased view here of what is going on.

I think you bring up a great point. The major reason would be that he wants another pub out of me. We started another project about 1 1/2 years ago. At the time, I was worried about defending on time, so my PI and I talked about likelihood of "finishing" the project and project expectations. We decided that it would be a collaborative effort with another student in the lab, and I would write the first manuscript draft, but not have expectations of being the first author on the final submission. Now, 1 1/2 years later, my part of the project is done. I turned in a manuscript draft based on the data I have. However, my "collaborator" has not pulled his weight, and still isn't done his part. So my PI now wants me to do his part too (his part of the project would be at least another 6 months - 1 year of work assuming no hiccups).

With respect to the finished projects/manuscripts, you're right that since I'm writing, I should know what's wrong with the manuscripts. Currently, I really don't know, and it's a problem. I wrote them based on outlines that he agreed with, so I don't see it being a problem with data analysis/interpretation. The first manuscript (in what I thought was final form) I gave him was almost two years ago. I'm not a pushy person, and he's busy administratively (ie. not ever around really), so I didn't follow up as much as I should. I started trying to follow up more since January after turning in the second manuscript, since the "deadline" is looming, but it's been difficult trying to get him cornered for long enough to even open up the discussion. I work as much as I can on them, but at the end of the day, my "co-author" needs to be ok with them and hit the submit buttons...

In terms of career goals, I'd like to be in academic medicine, but probably not at the bench. I'm definitely not looking to set up my own lab and score my own R01 or such in the future. I'm not really sure how much having the pubs would help me, and how much not having them would hurt me..

 

[GadRads]

Reminds me of the story of an MSTP student who had a PI who held his two papers hostage, attempting to trap this student in the lab for another year or more. Luckily his thesis committee, MSTP program director and the PhD program director stepped in.

I would try to enlist the support of the committee where appropriate, and your program director(s) if possible.

 

[Neuronix]

I ran into these issues myself when I defended. I thought I was ready to move on from grad school. Two of my committee members were okay with that, 2 were undecided, and my PI wanted me to stay another year. I thought my publications and other graduate school metrics were very solid, but they wanted more.

I got my MD/PhD director involved, which infuriated my PI and one of my committee members.

I was really mad about the whole thing and missed the deadline to go back to med school in that process. So I joined a different lab to kill some time until going back the following year. As you might imagine, they weren't particularly happy about that. Even if everything had gone swimmingly I don't think I would have had the opportunity to stay at my home program for residency. That said, they were very kind to still give me a good letter for my residency applications.

I don't know what the right answer is other than speaking to your MD/PhD director or advisors. They need to know the specifics of your situation and give advice specific to your situation.

In retrospect, I don't regret what I did because the experience in the other lab was very valuable to me moving forward. Further, I don't expect to run my own basic lab in the future. I'd have liked to, and I'd still like to, but I have had no job options or pathway to a majority time research position. For clinical academic positions, your grad school publication record isn't going to matter much if at all, assuming you have something reasonable to show for it.

 

[ImGoingCrazy@_@]

They need to know the specifics of your situation and give advice specific to your situation.

Thanks for the advice Neuronix! I think the most confusing part for me is if they weren't ready for me to go, then why ask me to schedule the initial defense date? If they were ready, then why the hassle now? Do they really think it'll take me more than a month or so to EDIT a dissertation?

Also, should I volunteer to have the manuscripts submitted before my defense? Given how long it takes to get a meeting with my PI, I feel like it's out of my control, especially since I already handed my PI what I thought was "final form". If this ends up being what the committee wants to see, then how do I say no?

 

[itsogre]

Can you update us on what came to pass with your defense? Thank you