HELP! cGPA: 3.35, sGPA: 3.09. Post-bacc, SMP, etc.??

[streudels]

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I'm a biology and humanities major with college honors, with a cGPA of 3.35 and an sGPA of 3.09 (went to college when I was 16, was misguided). I have three quarters left (including the one I'm in right now) and can bring that cGPA to a 3.5 (although sGPA stays the same). Should I take an SMP or take post-bacc courses?? Taking one more year of undergrad for me is out of the question, as I'm already on my fifth yr.

(my activities are in my mdapps profile, which I am to improve on as well)

 

[Nuggles]

It sounds to me that you've already gotten most of the pre-reqs done for medical school. It's unlikely that you will be able to get into a "career-changer" post-bacc program, as those programs tend to accept only people who haven't completed any of their pre-reqs yet.

An "academic record enhancer" SMP might be for you though, but you might want to wait until someone else here confirms it (I'm relatively new here as well!). Good luck 🙂

 

[streudels]

anyone else have advice? :/

 

[RoadRunner17]

Try a program like Penn's Special Sciences program. If you can get your cGPA to 3.5 upon graduation, that's good. You'll want to get your sGPA up higher, to maybe 3.3 or 3.4. If you can accomplish this taking one year of upper division science classes at a place like Penn, getting all A's, then I would do that and apply.

If not, maybe I would go with a SMP. The idea is to try to shift the focus from your undergraduate GPA onto your graduate GPA and performance in medical school classes on the same curve with first year students.

Of course, either option assumes that you take the MCAT and do well on it. My definition of well is above 30.

 

[AL24]

Try a program like Penn's Special Sciences program. If you can get your cGPA to 3.5 upon graduation, that's good. You'll want to get your sGPA up higher, to maybe 3.3 or 3.4. If you can accomplish this taking one year of upper division science classes at a place like Penn, getting all A's, then I would do that and apply.

If not, maybe I would go with a SMP. The idea is to try to shift the focus from your undergraduate GPA onto your graduate GPA and performance in medical school classes on the same curve with first year students.

Of course, either option assumes that you take the MCAT and do well on it. My definition of well is above 30.

I'm wrestling with a similar decision myself. I'm 3.55 cGPA, 3.41 sGPA. If I can get above 30+, then maybe I should apply without the SMP?

 

[streudels]

I'm curious --- which is more beneficial, an SMP or a Special Sciences program?

 

[streudels]

I'd venture an SMP is more beneficial but far more risky because if you screw your chance you've shot yourself in the feet so to speak.

Chance-screwing is not an option for me, and I'm not about to waste a year's worth of tuition only to throw it away. For SMPs though, do they really help? I know your grades get out as you're applying to med schools, but I feel like not having your SMP grades ready when you apply would already put you at a disadvantage. Or am I wrong?

 

[drizzt3117]

I would still do it unless you get some extraordinary MCAT score i.e. 35+ kinda score or one like DrJD's score which was a 38.

You may ask why I advise this!!!

Well the short answer is a 3.4 is still below averages at most schools. Hell, these days 3.5 is below averages. But also keep in mind the risk of doing not so hot in SMPs and cost. So it would depend on your MCAT score, where you are applying to, your home state, ec's etc.

As per the original poster, do you have an MCAT score?? Without that info it is pointless to answer this question.

I wouldn't do a SMP with GPAs that are that high. It's perfectly possible to get into med school if you apply broadly with a 3.55/30, obviously if you get a lot below 30 then you may want to consider a SMP but IMO it's not necessary.

SMPs are more suited to people with GPAs < 3.3 IMO, if I had a GPA between 3.3 and 3.5 I would do an informal postbac and try to raise it near 3.5 then apply while trying to get my MCAT above 31-32.

 

[streudels]

Then there are the group of people that keep a gap year and apply after finishing the program and these people generally do get in earlier in the process because they have grades from the program in full.

For those who do gap years, do they get better acceptances as a result? I would think that in the perspective of an adcoms committee they'd be more likely to interview/accept someone who's finished and is assured of having excellent scores in an SMP as opposed to someone who is still doing an SMP and whose academic performance in that program is still unforeseeable. At this point I'm giving myself strictly 2 years after I graduate (this year) before I enter an SOM in 2011, and I plan to do an SMP in Fall 2010.

 

[drizzt3117]

For those who do gap years, do they get better acceptances as a result? I would think that in the perspective of an adcoms committee they'd be more likely to interview/accept someone who's finished and is assured of having excellent scores in an SMP as opposed to someone who is still doing an SMP and whose academic performance in that program is still unforeseeable. At this point I'm giving myself strictly 2 years after I graduate (this year) before I enter an SOM in 2011, and I plan to do an SMP in Fall 2010.

I took a look at your MDApps, and I don't think you should do a SMP, at least not immediately. I would take the MCAT and see how you do. If you score in the low/mid 30s or above, I think you would have a good chance to get into med schools if you had the clinical experience that you mentioned you were going to get.

 

[drizzt3117]

I didn't say its not possible. But a 3.4 is NOT HIGH at all. A 3.5 is just under the average at most school and a 3.6 is more closer to the average. So its not a guarantee. I've known quite a few to be rejected with those numbers as I've known of those to be accepted so if you can afford it depending on your situation its sometimes worth it.

I personally think the best thing for any given individual though is to go to the schools of interest and talk to the adcom offices that allow for advising and see what their opinion is because different schools may or may not think you need it.

If you apply to med schools with a 3.5/30 you have a pretty good chance of getting in, I could pull out Lokhtar's graph but you're within one standard deviation of the mean of MD schools and probably within the margin of error. If the OP wants, they could always apply to SMPs and med schools at the same time, for the purposes of saving time. HOWEVER, if you take a SMP and don't do well, your chances are significantly if not completely reduced. SMPs aren't cakewalks, they're definitely more difficult to do well in than to pass med school, IMO at least.

Furthermore, I think if a 3.5/30 applicant isn't successful it isn't because of their stats, but because they don't have a narrative or profile that makes them stand out from the thousands of other average applicants out there.

 

[streudels]

SMPs aren't cakewalks, they're definitely more difficult to do well in than to pass med school, IMO at least.

If I kick ass on my SMPs and my MCAT, does that significantly increase my chances at higher tier med schools, or only just slightly?

Also, is it better to do a bunch of post-bacc science courses for one year, and then do an SMP the next? Would that make for an even better application (at least, numbers wise) since I'd be raising both my undergrad GPA and then proving my academic prowess in studying medicine?

 

[drizzt3117]

If I kick ass on my SMPs and my MCAT, does that significantly increase my chances at higher tier med schools, or only just slightly?

Also, is it better to do a bunch of post-bacc science courses for one year, and then do an SMP the next? Would that make for an even better application (at least, numbers wise) since I'd be raising both my undergrad GPA and then proving my academic prowess in studying medicine?

I would do postbac and take the MCAT while you do it. If you score well, you don't need a SMP

 

[drizzt3117]

My profile was very similar to the OPs (except I was almost completely a non-science major) prior to postbac. I had ~3.3 GPA, similar research but a couple grad degrees and a few other things. After my postbac and a good MCAT score I received interviews at 22 schools and got into numerous top tiers. You don't need a 3.8 to get into top tier schools, but raising your cumulative above 3.5 helps alot. The OP said they could have a 3.5 cgpa, and after a year of postbac that could probably be closer to 3.6c/3.5s. With a good MCAT score that's perfectly competitive for top programs, IMO. Keep in mind that score needs to be 35+ though, and probably pretty balanced.

BTW I agree about SMPs not being good for getting into top programs, and I don't think it'd be something the OP needs unless they don't score well on the MCAT.

You talk about planning on getting a 40+ but no one just gets a 40+ MCAT. without an MCAT score it is hard to say what may help more. A person with a 3.0 and a 40 will still be looked at. Just look at the guy with a 43R and 2.92 that interviewed at Columbia this year. He posted in the WAMC threads in preallo's subforum.

But no one just gets a 40+ MCAT and even many who scored 40+ on practice tests still got in the 30s on their actual real deal. So how can you assume your score will be such.

SMPs are not designed to increase chances at Higher tier vs. low tier schools. They are designed to INCREASE CHANCES of GETTING INTO ANY MED SCHOOL PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!

I don't believe an SMP will get you in a higher tier school. A 40+ MCAT is more likely to increase your chances of such.

An SMP will only increase your chances of getting in somewhere in general. Those who come out of SMPs who do get in top name research schools are people who had ridiculously high MCAT scores and may not have been too horribly off but just needed a slight increase in GPA in the first place. They are people whose non numerical profile is also good and who have interviewed well or been well received by the committee for other aspects of their app. They did not get into those schools cuz of the SMP solely.

Therefore, it is a wrongful assumption that doing an SMP will get you into one school over another more easily.

Your goal should not be getting into Harvard or a top name school only but to get into medical school period and understand that you are lucky that a school accepted you despite your past failures.

 

[streudels]

The OP said they could have a 3.5 cgpa, and after a year of postbac that could probably be closer to 3.6c/3.5s.

Actually my sGPA is a 3.09. I took the bulk of my pre-med classes during my first 2-3 yrs of college when I was very stupid (read: 18-credit quarters, too much active involvement, spread myself REAL thin, couldn't figure out what I wanted to do with life so I just did everything). My upper-level biology classes are great (3.8-3.9) but I took 4 classes from this one professor who consistently gave 3.0-3.4s to the higher percentile of students in her class, which includes me. (I had to take her because she's one of a few profs who teach physiology, which is my major)

I've been maintaining a 3.8-4.0 in my senior year of college (one quarter of science classes, 3 quarters of global health-related and social science classes), and while I'll be most likely raising my cGPA to a 3.5, my sGPA will still be a 3.09... I'm giving myself one more year before I start applying for med schools but I wonder what I could do within this time (besides getting great MCATs... in my diagnostic, I got a 13 in Verbal (although still need to study for the science portions)) to prove to the adcoms that I've turned around. I've considered doing post-bacc, but if I do 45 credits I'll only be raising my sGPA to a 3.3. However, if I just do a straight SMP I wouldn't have to shell out the money for those 45 credits and just prove I'm capable to tackling med classes (while still keeping the same sGPA of 3.09).

JEEZ. I don't think I've palm-faced myself so much within the past few months for the crap I did to myself in college.

 

[streudels]

I can't predict anything of what is best for you without that number and a predictive score is not the same thing as your actual score.

How about... hypothetically speaking? If I got an MCAT 40+? (I like to err on the side of ridiculous optimism)

 

[drizzt3117]

How about... hypothetically speaking? If I got an MCAT 40+? (I like to err on the side of ridiculous optimism)

IF you manage to score in the top 0.6% on the MCAT... and took a year of postbac and got all As... then you would potentially be a good candidate for top tiers if you had the clinical experience, most likely.

I realized from what you wrote though that our profiles aren't as similar as I thought because I only took math before I did postbac, so my BCPM on AMCAS was ~3.98... you're going to want to raise your BCPM up as high as you can. I think you can raise it more than you think if you got As in classes.

FWIW, I had a 39S (13-13-13)

 

[streudels]

then you would potentially be a good candidate for top tiers if you had the clinical experience, most likely.

Really? Say I do a post-bacc of 45 credits for a year. Ideally, if I ace most if not all of those classes, and do well on the MCAT...

By application time: cGPA = 3.55 and an sGPA of 3.3, MCAT = ~40, great clinical experience, leadership, etc. ... this gets you in at a top tier?

I don't want it to seem like I'm solely focused on getting into a top tier SOM, but the SOM's with a strong global health focus are usually top tier schools. :/

 

[drizzt3117]

Really? Say I do a post-bacc of 45 credits for a year. Ideally, if I ace most if not all of those classes, and do well on the MCAT...

By application time: cGPA = 3.55 and an sGPA of 3.3, MCAT = ~40, great clinical experience, leadership, etc. ... this gets you in at a top tier?

I don't want it to seem like I'm solely focused on getting into a top tier SOM, but the SOM's with a strong global health focus are usually top tier schools. :/

The sGPA is going to be your only concern really. My profile was almost exactly like that except I had two grad degrees and a lot of work experience to go with it. 3.58 cgpa from a top 5 school and top postbac/3.98 bcpm/39S

you also need some really good recs.

How many credits do you have in the sciences and/or overall? Can't you take some more science classes while you're finishing your studies or do you not have the time to do so?

 

[streudels]

I've done a whopping 120 science credits (out of a projected 260 overall) and have no space to add to that before I graduate since I'm now finishing up the classes to my second non-science major. This is why I'm considering an informal post-bacc (which I presume is post-bacc > SMP?).

Also, drizzt, what places did you get into, if you don't mind my asking? It seems like you did a formal pre-med post-bacc after college.

 

[drizzt3117]

I've done a whopping 120 science credits (out of a projected 260 overall) and have no space to add to that before I graduate since I'm now finishing up the classes to my second non-science major. This is why I'm considering an informal post-bacc (which I presume is post-bacc > SMP?).

Also, drizzt, what places did you get into, if you don't mind my asking? It seems like you did a formal pre-med post-bacc after college.

a bunch of places, I had 10+ acceptances, but to give you an idea, Columbia, UCLA, and others, and yes I did a foormal postbac.

If you had 120 units in the sciences at 3.1, did a semester postbac with 18 credits/sem (tough but doable) and got all As (that's basically what I did my first year of postbac) you could rause your GPA to 3.38. If you did two years like I did, you could raise it to 3.52, so you're getting pretty big diminishing returns with extra time. If you did two years and got 3.8 though you'd raise your GPA to 3.43. In case you're wondering, one year of postbac would increase your cGPA to 3.59 and two would increase it to 3.65. You really averaged almost 3.9 in non-sciences and 3.1 in sciences?

 

[streudels]

Hmm. If I did two years of a post-bacc, pure science, would that mean I wait two years after college until I apply --- making that 3 years before I go back to school after graduating? It seems like an SMP at this point would be more cost-effective and take up less time --- although possibly limit my chances to mid- to low-tier SOMs.

If I were to do two years post-bacc, would I just be repeating all my pre-med reqs? In that case, wouldn't I be averaging out all the pre-med classes I already took?

I basically squished all my science classes into the first 2.5 years of college; when I started getting my act together the classes I had left were non-science. Plus it's much easier for me to keep up with my non-science classes as opposed to my science classes, which didn't bode so well under my packed schedule during the first half of college.

 

[drizzt3117]

You should take the mcat first then decide what to do. If you do well, you shouldn't do a smp. Smp are for people who need them to get into med school, they're a last resort.

Hmm. If I did two years of a post-bacc, pure science, would that mean I wait two years after college until I apply --- making that 3 years before I go back to school after graduating? It seems like an SMP at this point would be more cost-effective and take up less time --- although possibly limit my chances to mid- to low-tier SOMs.

If I were to do two years post-bacc, would I just be repeating all my pre-med reqs? In that case, wouldn't I be averaging out all the pre-med classes I already took?

I basically squished all my science classes into the first 2.5 years of college; when I started getting my act together the classes I had left were non-science. Plus it's much easier for me to keep up with my non-science classes as opposed to my science classes, which didn't bode so well under my packed schedule during the first half of college.