Help deciding Stanford, Penn, BU 7 yr and USC full tuition

[BenFelson]

Need help with decision:
Stanford, Penn, Rice accepted - probably no money.
BU 7-yr no money, Case PPSP $10K, USC full ride.
Probably between Stanford, BU combined, and USC. Despite named NMF, no money for BU. BU total cost $420K for the MD degree.
USC full-tuition scholarship ($145K free money), not combined program.
Thanks for your opinions.

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[perilou]

Need help with decision:
Stanford, Penn, Rice accepted - probably no money.
BU 7-yr no money, Case PPSP $10K, USC full ride.
Probably between Stanford, BU combined, and USC. Despite named NMF, no money for BU. BU total cost $420K for the MD degree.
USC full-tuition scholarship ($145K free money), not combined program.
Thanks for your opinions.

My vote is for USC.

But, you know better than I. I mean you are and attending!

 

[WashMe]

Need help with decision:
Stanford, Penn, Rice accepted - probably no money.
BU 7-yr no money, Case PPSP $10K, USC full ride.
Probably between Stanford, BU combined, and USC. Despite named NMF, no money for BU. BU total cost $420K for the MD degree.
USC full-tuition scholarship ($145K free money), not combined program.
Thanks for your opinions.

Obviously USC. You can't beat free, especially when undergrad name is essentially irrelevant when applying to medical school. USC is a good school anyway.

 

[DoctwoB]

Need help with decision:
Stanford, Penn, Rice accepted - probably no money.
BU 7-yr no money, Case PPSP $10K, USC full ride.
Probably between Stanford, BU combined, and USC. Despite named NMF, no money for BU. BU total cost $420K for the MD degree.
USC full-tuition scholarship ($145K free money), not combined program.
Thanks for your opinions.

I don't know much about Case PPSP, but I would go with that. Case is a great med school, and the fact that its 10k off/year is just icing in the cake. I would definitely go with the Case PPSP over the BU combined.

If you want a non-integrated program, I'd probably take USC. I went to Stanford and thought it was absolutely amazing and the Stanford name goes a long way (more so for jobs then med school apps though), but it doesn't make it worth about 150k over USC. Even if our football team is way better.

 

[BenFelson]

Hi there,
Thanks for your opinions guys. Objectively I know/advise that the ultimate goal is becoming a board certified physician in the subspecialty of your choosing. Least money the better. It's just tough to turn down a reach school, a guaranteed admission or free good school education, if it's your own daughter. I have a son and another daughter to pay for college soon. BU is going to cost $420K for the MD. Stanford or USC UG then back to TX for Baylor/Southwestern medical school tuition is only $6,500/yr instate.

 

[MilkmanAl]

I'd say USC is just as good of a school as any of those, not that it matters. Take the cash. FWIW, I have 2 friends in my class who went to college at Case and hated it. Anecdotal, sure, but it's worth thinking about. I can't see not enjoying school in soCal, even if you don't enjoy the school itself.

 

[WashMe]

Hi there,
Thanks for your opinions guys. Objectively I know/advise that the ultimate goal is becoming a board certified physician in the subspecialty of your choosing. Least money the better. It's just tough to turn down a reach school, a guaranteed admission or free good school education, if it's your own daughter. I have a son and another daughter to pay for college soon. BU is going to cost $420K for the MD. Stanford or USC UG then back to TX for Baylor/Southwestern medical school tuition is only $6,500/yr instate.

I went to an off-the-radar undergrad and graduated with zero debt-- I had a scholarship for full tuition and living expenses. I turned down Case Western as well as some other great schools, and I haven't regretted it for one second. It was a great experience, the price was right , and in the end I interviewed at 5 out of 8 med schools to which I applied, including 4 "Top 20's". I'm attending WashU now, and the "prestigious" undergrads attended by my classmates are now irrelevant. The point is, the cream rises to the top (unless is it saddled with $150k of undergrad debt, haha).

 

[BenFelson]

I went to an off-the-radar undergrad and graduated with zero debt-- I had a scholarship for full tuition and living expenses. I turned down Case Western and some other great schools. It was a great experience, the price was right , and in the end I interviewed at 5 out of 8 med schools to which I applied, including 4 "Top 20's". I'm attending WashU now, and the "prestigious" undergrads attended by my classmates are now irrelevant. ).

I didn't expect the consensus to be USC. Stanford grad and Wash U stud views much appreciated. In general, do you get a lower GPA attending Stanford? You are being modest, but getting into WashU requires outstanding MCAT, GPA and ECs. My niece at UVA Med had awesome stats and did not get into WUSTL and Duke. As for Case, the opinions seem to be split!

 

[WashMe]

I didn't expect the consensus to be USC. Stanford grad and Wash U stud views much appreciated. In general, do you get a lower GPA attending Stanford? You are being modest, but getting into WashU requires outstanding MCAT, GPA and ECs. My niece at UVA Med had awesome stats and did not get into WUSTL and Duke. As for Case, the opinions seem to be split!

Two things:
(1) My MCAT and GPA were very high, and I had a few publications.
(2) The aforementioned stats and research accomplishments are a testament to the fact that you can get an excellent education just about anywhere.

Regarding the research, I think it was a great benefit to go to a lesser known school, because I could waltz into any professor's office and they'd get me going in the lab the same day. The opportunities were countless.

 

[WashMe]

One other thing: don't let your daughter rob herself of the college experience by doing a combined program until she has seriously weighed all the options. College is something you do once, as you know... I was never a crazy partier, and I don't imagine your daughter is either. However, I had a great time and I wouldn't trade those 4 years in for a million dollars. I'll never have another time like that in my life (few financial responsibilities, countless friends, ample free time, etc.), and it was a great way to spend age 18-22.

You could offer to give your daughter like $40k upon college graduation if she goes to the free school... You were going to pay for part/all of her education anyway, and this solution would be way cheaper for you. It would help her buy a car, a house, or pay for some medical school expenses.

 

[WashMe]

Not to dominate this thread, but I thought of something else. As you are surely experiencing, big changes are happening in medicine. Many of them do not benefit physicians, and it might be nice for your daughter to choose a program where she isn't roped into medicine.

The outlook of medicine in 4 years may be very different, and your daughter may want to pick a path besides medicine (e.g. grad school, teaching, lab tech -- which can pay very well in private companies, etc.). My buddy decided against med school and has been making $75k a year for running some bioreactors on the west coast. He has no debt, so that's pretty good cash.

The key is that if you pay a ton for school, you're going to feel like you need a high paying job to deal with the debt. If you go to school for free, the world is your oyster at graduation.

 

[BenFelson]

No, I appreciate your comments. I was told that getting into medical schools now is much more difficult than in the past (I went to Rice, washed some test tubes for research, never really been in a hospital and spent one week studying for the MCAT. Every single person I knew got in. That will not do.) My daughter only knows medicine and does not know/have a passion for anything else (for lack of exposure.)

 

[MilkmanAl]

My daughter only knows medicine and does not know/have a passion for anything else (for lack of exposure.)

That's a great reason she shouldn't be in a combined program and also a reason you should encourage her to take a bunch of assorted classes during her first year. I'm on board with what WashMe has to say.

In my opinion, the trick to getting into med school these days is to go to college where she can get a high GPA with minimal effort in whatever subject she chooses. Ideally, that would also be a school she really enjoyed and could attend for free. The days of undergrad prestige making a big difference in med school acceptance seem to largely be behind us. That said, some of the more prestigious universities, Stanford included, are notorious for serious grade inflation.

 

[austinblnd]

I went to an off-the-radar undergrad and graduated with zero debt-- I had a scholarship for full tuition and living expenses. I turned down Case Western as well as some other great schools, and I haven't regretted it for one second. It was a great experience, the price was right , and in the end I interviewed at 5 out of 8 med schools to which I applied, including 4 "Top 20's". I'm attending WashU now, and the "prestigious" undergrads attended by my classmates are now irrelevant. The point is, the cream rises to the top (unless is it saddled with $150k of undergrad debt, haha).

This post is golden. I wish I could have read it while I was in the application process.

 

[BenFelson]

That's a great reason she shouldn't be in a combined program and also a reason you should encourage her to take a bunch of assorted classes during her first year. I'm on board with what WashMe has to say.

In my opinion, the trick to getting into med school these days is to go to college where she can get a high GPA with minimal effort in whatever subject she chooses. Ideally, that would also be a school she really enjoyed and could attend for free. The days of undergrad prestige making a big difference in med school acceptance seem to largely be behind us. That said, some of the more prestigious universities, Stanford included, are notorious for serious grade inflation.

Lots of wisdom above. Weird that my wife's anesthesiologist partners are voting 2:1 for Stanford. They should know/think that UG pedigree carries little weight.

More comments/votes are much appreciated.

 

[Mahliah]

take the full ride. youll be going into enough debt for med school.

 

[WashMe]

Lots of wisdom above. Weird that my wife's anesthesiologist partners are voting 2:1 for Stanford. They should know/think that UG pedigree carries little weight.

More comments/votes are much appreciated.

There could be a few things going on here... You should consider where your wife's partners went to school. I like the saying, "you only know it one way."

(1) If her partners went to average UGs, then they may think that they could have somehow done better if they had gone to a very prestigious school-- this, of course, implies that they aren't 100% satisfied right now (which is entirely possible).
(2) If, on the other hand, her partners went to prestigious schools, they may attribute their success to school names on their degrees; they probably would have ended up in the same place if they had attended no-name university, but nobody can say for sure because a person can only take one path.
(3) Maybe UG prestige WAS important when your wife's partners were going through this process, even though it doesn't matter much anymore.

 

[BenFelson]

There could be a few things going on here... You should consider where your wife's partners went to school. I like the saying, "you only know it one way."

(1) If her partners went to average UGs, then they may think that they could have somehow done better if they had gone to a very prestigious school-- this, of course, implies that they aren't 100% satisfied right now (which is entirely possible).
(2) If, on the other hand, her partners went to prestigious schools, they may attribute their success to school names on their degrees; they probably would have ended up in the same place if they had attended no-name university, but nobody can say for sure because a person can only take one path.
(3) Maybe UG prestige WAS important when your wife's partners were going through this process, even though it doesn't matter much anymore.

Your (2) and (3) are right on the money. Thanks.

 

[DoctwoB]

There could be a few things going on here... You should consider where your wife's partners went to school. I like the saying, "you only know it one way."

(1) If her partners went to average UGs, then they may think that they could have somehow done better if they had gone to a very prestigious school-- this, of course, implies that they aren't 100% satisfied right now (which is entirely possible).
(2) If, on the other hand, her partners went to prestigious schools, they may attribute their success to school names on their degrees; they probably would have ended up in the same place if they had attended no-name university, but nobody can say for sure because a person can only take one path.
(3) Maybe UG prestige WAS important when your wife's partners were going through this process, even though it doesn't matter much anymore.

For #3 its almost impossible to say. I certainly agree that what you do matters more then where you go, and that you can go to any med school from any undergrad so long as you do well enough and make yourself stand out. I do think that there is some benefit to going to a prestigious undergrad, but how much I'm sure depends on the individual admissions committee in question. Just like how some residency programs clearly place a lot of weight on med school pedigree and others couldn't care less. Everyone I know at Stanford did exceptionally well in applying to med-school (everyone seems to be at top 20 schools), but of course its impossible to determine if the name helped a lot or just if they are just exceptional students (hence why they got into Stanford in the first place).

 

[BenFelson]

I certainly agree that what you do matters more then where you go, and that you can go to any med school from any undergrad so long as you do well enough and make yourself stand out. There is some benefit to going to a prestigious undergrad, but how much I'm sure. Just like how some residency programs clearly place a lot of weight on med school pedigree. Everyone I know at Stanford did exceptionally well in applying to med-school (everyone seems to be at top 20 schools), but of course its impossible to determine if the name helped a lot or just if they are just exceptional students (hence why they got into Stanford in the first place).

If she decides against medicine, will Stanford pedigree with the debt help more; or USC is fine if you do well? Will her GPA suffer at Stanford vs. USC? What is your opinion about Stanford overall? Thanks.

 

[MilkmanAl]

Stanford is an excellent school that's relatively easy to do well at . USC is also an excellent school, though probably not as highly regarded, but I am unaware of how grades go there. In any event, a strong performance at either school would set you up very well for a prestigious non-med school graduate degree. Considering that a graduate degree is virtually required for a decent job these days, that's a good thing!

 

[WashMe]

"7 out of 10 [future] doctors recommend taking the money"

lol

 

[schrizto]

Case PPSP, absolutely. I think the OP was unfair to PPSP in that they didn't really explain what the program is.

PPSP is an eight year BS/MD program, and they only require a 3.6 to go onto the medical school and no MCAT.

You'd be crazy to turn down a program like Case's, especially with paying only 10k a year for undergrad and needing only a 3.6 to get into a top 50 ranked medical school.

Case PPSP >>>>>>>>>>> USC full ride. It's all about getting into medical school. Money is important too, but Case gave you a substantial scholarship. The security of a med school spot at a top med school is so worth 10k/yr over USC.

 

[gschl1234]

Need help with decision:
Stanford, Penn, Rice accepted - probably no money.
BU 7-yr no money, Case PPSP $10K, USC full ride.
Probably between Stanford, BU combined, and USC. Despite named NMF, no money for BU. BU total cost $420K for the MD degree.
USC full-tuition scholarship ($145K free money), not combined program.
Thanks for your opinions.

Congratulations to your daughter! Combined BS/MD programs have never made any sense to me. It is a "sure thing" but will lock her into medicine very early in life. I know at 17, I could not have made that decision wisely. That being said, if she is absolutely sure, then a combined program may be the way to go in case she is unable to earn admission to medical school after undergrad. However, if I were in her situation, I would try to go to the most highly regarded school with grade inflation (i.e. I wouldn't risk it at a place like MIT or Princeton). This leaves the door open for medical school later on and at the same time, would give her the academic pedigree more valued in other professions, should she decide against medicine at some later point. In short--Stanford would provide her with the most flexibility.

 

[Gigantron]

Go where the money is. ^_^

 

[WashMe]

Case PPSP, absolutely. I think the OP was unfair to PPSP in that they didn't really explain what the program is.

PPSP is an eight year BS/MD program, and they only require a 3.6 to go onto the medical school and no MCAT.

You'd be crazy to turn down a program like Case's, especially with paying only 10k a year for undergrad and needing only a 3.6 to get into a top 50 ranked medical school.

Case PPSP >>>>>>>>>>> USC full ride. It's all about getting into medical school. Money is important too, but Case gave you a substantial scholarship. The security of a med school spot at a top med school is so worth 10k/yr over USC.

It sounds like you have no confidence in his daughter... many thousands of people apply to medical school every year and are accepted via the traditional path (i.e., not BS/MD). Since she is holding some top notch UG acceptances, she probably isn't the type of person who will have trouble getting into medical school. Besides, who wants to live in Cleveland for 8 years?

Congratulations to your daughter! Combined BS/MD programs have never made any sense to me. It is a "sure thing" but will lock her into medicine very early in life. I know at 17, I could not have made that decision wisely. That being said, if she is absolutely sure, then a combined program may be the way to go in case she is unable to earn admission to medical school after undergrad. However, if I were in her situation, I would try to go to the most highly regarded school with grade inflation (i.e. I wouldn't risk it at a place like MIT or Princeton). This leaves the door open for medical school later on and at the same time, would give her the academic pedigree more valued in other professions, should she decide against medicine at some later point. In short--Stanford would provide her with the most flexibility.

If by "most flexibility" you mean "most anxiety from feeling the need to pull down a fat six-figure salary just to handle student loans," then I agree with you. Paying a lot for college definitely limits your career options; student debt can practically ruin your life if you go to a highly expensive school and then take a job for $40k/year afterward. A person should pick what they want to do for the rest of their life based on what they love, not based on needing to manage a $200k debt.

 

[Earl Simmons]

Hi BenFelson,

I am currently a high school senior and if I had the choices that your child has I would most likely choose USC with full tuition. A major problem that I have with full rides is that they usually at commuter schools, lesser known schools, etc. However, in this situation, USC offers the perfect college experience. California, the weather, the college feel, the sports, the resources, the funding, and more. I can't really think of a con and when you toss in the full ride it is a no-brainer to me.

And like you implied, going to USC won't make your child lose TX resident status, so applying back to Texas medical schools would be awesome and save you even more money (with great med school too like UT-SW, Baylor, UT-H, UT-MB, etc.).

I think this is a no-brainer really.

 

[MilkmanAl]

You'd be crazy to turn down a program like Case's, especially with paying only 10k a year for undergrad and needing only a 3.6 to get into a top 50 ranked medical school.

Unless, you know, you don't like Case or aren't huge on research or don't want to paint yourself into a corner academically or don't want to go to a PBL school or...

Case PPSP >>>>>>>>>>> USC full ride.

See above. Also, I totally disagree. Applying to med school sucks, but it's not a big enough deal to be worth several hundred grand to avoid. If you're going to be keeping a 3.6 anyway, you might as well have the freedom to apply and go wherever you want. You're not even saving any time with the Case program. The upside is minimal.

Besides, who wants to live in Cleveland for 8 years?

Their leading export is crippling depression. Sounds great!

 

[fleetgoddess]

Case PPSP, absolutely. I think the OP was unfair to PPSP in that they didn't really explain what the program is.

PPSP is an eight year BS/MD program, and they only require a 3.6 to go onto the medical school and no MCAT.

You'd be crazy to turn down a program like Case's, especially with paying only 10k a year for undergrad and needing only a 3.6 to get into a top 50 ranked medical school.

Case PPSP >>>>>>>>>>> USC full ride. It's all about getting into medical school. Money is important too, but Case gave you a substantial scholarship. The security of a med school spot at a top med school is so worth 10k/yr over USC.

I completely disagree with this as well. Money is better than a guaranteed acceptance. What if you don't like Case. Plus I'd think that USC would be much more enjoyable and isn't that half of undergrad. But taking away my bias that USC would be more enjoyable, I think that she should think about what school she liked and consider money.

The only reason I think a guaranteed program is a good idea is if she said in the past that she's always dreamed of spending 8 years in Cleveland. There are a lot of things I thought were important when I was 17 that I don't now. It's like getting married when your 17. I wanted to go to vet school when I went to undergrad. Things change and I think that binding yourself to things at a young age is a bad idea. The shortened combined programs are an even worse idea.

In college I had a full ride to a state school a lot of money tied to the honors college. The state school was a huge school and a huge party school but the honors college kids kind of weren't so exciting. I didn't really like it when I stayed there for a day. I also got in to a more well known school that I got a significant amount of money from but not a full ride. I went to that school. I bet I could have ended up at med school either way. I chose the school I went to because I LOVED IT. It has a great reputation with med schools as well and great pre-med advising. (From a social experiment point of view: my twin sister who isn't as studious as me actually graduated from the state school above and didn't get a full ride; I have less college debt than she does and my base private school tuition was much higher. Partial scholarships count for something! She is not in med school, but getting an MPH)

One thing I found is important is advising: My friend went to a prestigious southern school which has a lot of people in their own med school, but isn't really that good at getting people in others. He tried to get into med school and finally did on the third try. I talked to him about it numerous times and realized that their med school advising was awful. Everything my advisers told us not to do he had done, and didn't know any better. They recently got a new adviser so this could be totally different now. I don't know how you would get a feeling for this but I have talked to other people who are now in residency who had a very hard time applying to top med schools as their smaller schools advising wasn't very good. They did get into very competitive residencies but were rejected from some surprising med schools.

Basically I'd say they are all good schools. Where she wants to be and money should be the big factors.

=

 

[BenFelson]

Thank you for your thoughts. They have been helpful and unexpected. Didn't know but understandable that premed advising is key. We
will visit the schools before May 1, with USC near the top of the list.