Help for ex-MSTPs

[sdnetrocks]

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[mdphdhopeful]

seems like you'd do more harm than good. but then again, wont they know that you were once an mstp?

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

I'm a rising M4 ex-MSTP, and am trying to figure out to handle the issue of being in MSTP for the first 2 years of med school and then dropping out.

My baseline strategy is to avoid any mention of the MSTP altogether outside of my personal statement, where I succintly mention the reasons why I quit.

However, I was just working on my CV, and was thinking - wouldn't being in the MSTP (getting a "National Institutes of Health Training Grant") count as an award? Or, in other words, can I try to get some kudos for having had the goods to get into the program in the first place, or is that now moot?

That would be as silly as someone who got into Yale but chose to go to MIT putting "accepted to Yale" on his CV. Just ignore it, you "rejected" the award so you obviously didn't think it was worth pursuing, so why put that on the CV?

 

[thos]

I'm a rising M4 ex-MSTP, and am trying to figure out to handle the issue of being in MSTP for the first 2 years of med school and then dropping out.

My baseline strategy is to avoid any mention of the MSTP altogether outside of my personal statement, where I succintly mention the reasons why I quit.

However, I was just working on my CV, and was thinking - wouldn't being in the MSTP (getting a "National Institutes of Health Training Grant") count as an award? Or, in other words, can I try to get some kudos for having had the goods to get into the program in the first place, or is that now moot?

I agree that putting it as an award is probably poor form since you decided to drop. You're right in thinking that the personal statement is the place to address, but I imagine that you're going to have to talk about it no matter what you do. Those that take the time to read your personal statement will probably ask about it because they need something to talk about, and those that don't will want to know about the couple of years off. I don't know about your school, but our Dean's letter (Academic Summary or whatever it's called now) usually has something about time gaps. Also, isn't there a spot on the application for that too?

Edit: Sorry, I just read your post again and realized there won't be a time gap, so it might not come up as often. I guess if you never mention it the interviewers might not know (does anyone know this?), but of course if they do know and you haven't addressed it, that looks bad. I still think that it's poor form to put it as an award, because then it appears as if you used it to get two free years of med school. Please don't take offense, I'm just putting how it could appear to interviewers.

 

[BStein76]

I'm a rising M4 ex-MSTP, and am trying to figure out to handle the issue of being in MSTP for the first 2 years of med school and then dropping out.

My baseline strategy is to avoid any mention of the MSTP altogether outside of my personal statement, where I succintly mention the reasons why I quit.

However, I was just working on my CV, and was thinking - wouldn't being in the MSTP (getting a "National Institutes of Health Training Grant") count as an award? Or, in other words, can I try to get some kudos for having had the goods to get into the program in the first place, or is that now moot?

I mentioned in my personal statement reasons for leaving the program and it was mentioned in my Dean's letter. I did not put on my CV that I was in a NIH funded MSTP. On my transcript there is a leave of absence for the time I was in graduate school. I even had publications before I quit (relatively later in the MSTP game). People will ask and you should have some rehearsed answer why you quit. You will be asked why should their residency accept someone who quit a MD/PhD program so be prepared for that too. My redemption was that I published papers and presented at national meetings. Only at the top schools will you be ostracized for quitting (interestingly by faculty that never pursued a MD/PhD program). The faculty that tend to be the most empathetic were those that completed the joint degree (many of them also contemplated quitting at some point during their training). I ended up matching below my 5th choice in internal medicine so prepare to be punished by the "establishment", but in the end I never regretted quitting the MD/PhD program. Quitting a MD/PhD program is not a rare event, but sometimes it feels like you are the only one; make sure you talk to your Dean as well the program director at your school in the field that you are interested in to get their opinions.

 

[Astrocyte]

I'm a rising M4 ex-MSTP, and am trying to figure out to handle the issue of being in MSTP for the first 2 years of med school and then dropping out.

My baseline strategy is to avoid any mention of the MSTP altogether outside of my personal statement, where I succintly mention the reasons why I quit.

However, I was just working on my CV, and was thinking - wouldn't being in the MSTP (getting a "National Institutes of Health Training Grant") count as an award? Or, in other words, can I try to get some kudos for having had the goods to get into the program in the first place, or is that now moot?

You are thinking too much. They will know you were MSTP.
I disagree with BStein. I don't think programs will penalize you for quitting as long as it's not because of poor performance, even at the top programs. However, that does not necessarily mean you have advantage over a straight MD applicant. It all comes down to how well you have done in research and grades.

 

[mdphdhopeful]

You are thinking too much. They will know you were MSTP.
I disagree with BStein. I don't think programs will penalize you for quitting as long as it's not because of poor performance, even at the top programs. However, that does not necessarily mean you have advantage over a straight MD applicant. It all comes down to how well you have done in research and grades.

why wouldnt they penalize?

 

[MasonPrehealth]

I guess the major issue is why you dropped out of the MSTP in the first place? I agree people are going to find out whether you were an MSTP student or not, and an MSTP is a prestigious award as any fellowship award you will seek in the future.

It sounds to me like you need to come to grips with yourself in how you closed that door and why you would never want to open it again. I'd want to know your reasoning for leaving the program and how it coincides with your current professional goals.

 

[thos]

why wouldnt they penalize?

I'm not sure anyone would penalize in the true sense of the word, that is actively discriminate against a student in this situation as a form of punishment for dropping the program. But it's human nature to let such things influence your opinion or judgement. I think the statement by a previous poster about MD/PhDs being more forgiving (if that's the right word) has some truth to it. I had some dark periods during which I told myself "six more months without results and I quit." In fact, almost all of my MD/PhD friends went through something similar, and a few ultimately did decide to drop. However, others might take the "I stuck it out" approach and be even harsher. Anyway, each person is going to have a different take on it, and some will accept your explanation while other's won't accept any. I think MasonPrehealth is right that it's important to really self-evaluate and be honest as to your reasons for deciding not to continue. As I said in my previous post, no offense intended, but I make this next point just to give you something to think about when anticipating questions during interview season. Dropping the program after 2 years, before any (real) lab experience shows some lack of forethought about the reality of the program. A PD may have some concern about the choice to pursue a given field.

I don't mean to come off all doomsday, and I'm sure at many programs this won't be any kind of issue. You're right in thinking that if you were qualified enough for an MSTP then you're likely a good med student, and you'll do well in the end. It's just there may be some speed bumps. Good luck.

 

[Maebea]

I guess the major issue is why you dropped out of the MSTP in the first place? I agree people are going to find out whether you were an MSTP student or not, and an MSTP is a prestigious award as any fellowship award you will seek in the future.
QUOTE]

I would say that it is prestigious only if one receives an individual F-30 NRSA. If one is funded by an institutional T-32, then the prestige belongs to the school and the program, while the prestige accruing to an individual is only the reflected prestige of being in a program that received a T-32 grant. It is sort of like the difference between winning the Oscar for Best Actress, or being an actress in a movie that won the Best Picture award.

There are around 900 individuals supported by MSTP T-32's awarded to institutions, versus less than 100 (just a wag on my part) supported by individual F-30's. Those that have the F-30 have been reviewed by a panel at the NIH and competed against grant applicants from around the nation. Those funded by institutional T-32's were reviewed by their institution's MSTP. The F-30 & the T-32, while having the same objective, are really two different beasts.

To the OP, I do not see any need to mention that you were once an MSTP student. Getting into an MSTP is probably not much more difficult than getting into medical school. The criteria are different, but the proportion of available MD-PhD slots to MD-PhD applicants is probably not much different than that for MD-only applicants. If you have the "goods", i.e., extensive research experience, then you have as fair a chance of being admitted to a particular school as an MD applicant. Completing both degrees is another matter, but with national attrition rates in the neighborhood of 15% (again, a guess), you are in good company because there are plenty of individuals that drop the PhD.

 

[kobester]

Avoid it. I definitely wouldn't put that as an award.

The reason MD/PhD's are sought after by residency programs is their "academic potential". There is strong data to indicate that MD/PhD's have a much higher rate of retention in academics. This makes the training program look good. It's not because they are smarter, make better private practice clinicians, or make better residents.

Be very careful how you proceed with your dropping out of the program. The academic potential thing might work against you. If you dropped out of the PhD, then you are going to have a hard time convincing them that you will stay in academics/research after residency. And this is what all top academic residency programs are looking for.

I'm sure you had good reasons for quitting, and I'm not judging you at all. An MD/PhD is definitely not for everyone. But just letting you know how I think that residencies view the MD/PhD.

 

[BStein76]

You are thinking too much. They will know you were MSTP.
I disagree with BStein. I don't think programs will penalize you for quitting as long as it's not because of poor performance, even at the top programs. However, that does not necessarily mean you have advantage over a straight MD applicant. It all comes down to how well you have done in research and grades.

For me, when I interviewed, the program directors wanted to know specifically why I dropped the PhD portion when I already had papers. I told them my advisor left science altogether and I was left hanging without an advisor. My committee gave me two choices start over in another lab on a new project or leave the program. Most program directors were nice about it and understood my reasons for leaving. One even said, "the ones we worry about are the ones that quit before even starting graduate school". The only ones that questioned my ability to continue in academics were in the higher ranked programs. Their honest answer was that since they knew I quit a MD/PhD program, the likelihood that I would continue in academics would be very fairly slim. I am only describing my personal experiences in internal medicine. I didn't have any problems academically and honored most of my clinical rotations. My steps were I-245 IICK-250. I think the OP should apply to whatever programs that are interested in, but they should have some realistic expectations and be prepared to defend themselves in an interview with the program director when asked why they quit.

 

[kobester]

For me, when I interviewed, the program directors wanted to know specifically why I dropped the PhD portion when I already had papers. I told them my advisor left science altogether and I was left hanging without an advisor. My committee gave me two choices start over in another lab on a new project or leave the program. Most program directors were nice about it and understood my reasons for leaving. One even said, "the ones we worry about are the ones that quit before even starting graduate school". The only ones that questioned my ability to continue in academics were in the higher ranked programs. Their honest answer was that since they knew I quit a MD/PhD program, the likelihood that I would continue in academics would be very fairly slim. I am only describing my personal experiences in internal medicine. I didn't have any problems academically and honored most of my clinical rotations. My steps were I-245 IICK-250. I think the OP should apply to whatever programs that are interested in, but they should have some realistic expectations and be prepared to defend themselves in an interview with the program director when asked why they quit.

I'm sorry that happened to you. It sounds like it did work against you, and from what you're saying, it seems like you were in a really unfortunate situation.

I totally agree with what you're saying about dropping out after the first 2 years. If it worked against you that you dropped out after having a nice publication record and even given your circumstances, then dropping out after 2 years is really going to hurt.

A word of advice to the OP- try not to even bring it up, but make sure you have a good answer for the inevitable questions. And for God's sakes, do not put "MSTP grant" down as an award.

 

[mdphdhopeful]

I'm sorry that happened to you. It sounds like it did work against you, and from what you're saying, it seems like you were in a really unfortunate situation.

I totally agree with what you're saying about dropping out after the first 2 years. If it worked against you that you dropped out after having a nice publication record and even given your circumstances, then dropping out after 2 years is really going to hurt.

A word of advice to the OP- try not to even bring it up, but make sure you have a good answer for the inevitable questions. And for God's sakes, do not put "MSTP grant" down as an award.

x2