Help me help you

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If you're always that behind on work, you need to work on becoming more efficient.

You should not be dependent on the students to "work", they are there to learn. What about the days they have lecture or something else going on? What do you do on those days?

LOL, sounds like you might have a much more cushy residency than some of us. We utilize the students when they are there. Sometimes they improve efficiency, sometimes they slow you down, but we have a mandate from the higher ups that they need to be actively doing stuff whenever possible. If they aren't there, due to lectures, etc, you make do, but yes, you do sometimes fall behind. It's not me that's inefficient -- I actually do a much better job of not leaving the night float folks in a bad position than most of my peers. It's more a function of how busy the service is, and the one I'm in now is quite busy, high volume and fast paced and if everyone, including the med students, aren't helping out, stuff doesn't get done. And we have been asked by the higher ups to try to leave a minimum of outstanding work for the night folks because they have their own full plate when they start. Sounds to me like you have it very relaxing, by comparison so you ought not cast stones, like telling someone who perhaps is getting a lot more done per day than you to "be more efficient".🙄
 
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As a corollary, as much as I think students have a right to study, I dont' get the whole 'go to the library' thing. I actually don't think I 'went to the library' a single time in my 3rd and 4th year. It's not like students are going to the library to check out books, they have their books with them. The only reason that I see to go somewhere secluded to study is to avoid the possibility of being asked to help with the work. I read plenty during my rotations, but I was typically reading my materials in or around the resident work area, so as to be available for other things. ...

Bingo. Med students ask "to go to the library" but we have no illusions that that's what they are really doing. They are really asking "can I go away from here so that if work comes up you hopefully will do it yourself rather than page me, wait 20 minutes for me to return the page, and another 20 to come back". It's the oldest med student trick in the book. And since residents understand the need to prepare for shelf exams, plus don't want to look like an A-hole, it's hard to simply say no, although after getting burned by a med student or two that doesn't come back, that person will certainly lose the privilege.
 
Wow, why would any med student try to get away from you? I can't imagine.

If you are being truthful, and your service/ area really is that chaotic (trauma surgeon? b/c then your POV would be totally reasonable), then they really can't read there.

Or maybe they just want 5 mins without being told what wusses they are.
 
LOL, sounds like you might have a much more cushy residency than some of us. We utilize the students when they are there. Sometimes they improve efficiency, sometimes they slow you down, but we have a mandate from the higher ups that they need to be actively doing stuff whenever possible. If they aren't there, due to lectures, etc, you make do, but yes, you do sometimes fall behind. It's not me that's inefficient -- I actually do a much better job of not leaving the night float folks in a bad position than most of my peers. It's more a function of how busy the service is, and the one I'm in now is quite busy, high volume and fast paced and if everyone, including the med students, aren't helping out, stuff doesn't get done. And we have been asked by the higher ups to try to leave a minimum of outstanding work for the night folks because they have their own full plate when they start. Sounds to me like you have it very relaxing, by comparison so you ought not cast stones, like telling someone who perhaps is getting a lot more done per day than you to "be more efficient".🙄

You're dependent on med students to do your work, so that means there is something wrong with me. So what do they do at non-teaching hospitals? :laugh:

I remember there was a guy on my ICU rotation when I was a student, he was a 4th year and I was a 3rd year. He was a lawyer before med school. I had a respectable clinical background before med school, 7 years as a paramedic. Because of this, I knew hands on/clinical things that other med students didn't. After being able to answer things time and time again that he couldn't; he started to whine. He said it wasn't "fair" that some people had clinical backgrounds and prior experience. This made me want to laugh, just as I am now. It was the same type of response, it is always a problem with someone else!!!!!!!!!
 
The moral of the story, step up and be the big stud you think you are. Let the students go eat at a reasonable time every day, even if you don't. Otherwise, you might fall into the d-bag category.
 
Wow, why would any med student try to get away from you? I can't imagine.

If you are being truthful, and your service/ area really is that chaotic (trauma surgeon? b/c then your POV would be totally reasonable), then they really can't read there.

Or maybe they just want 5 mins without being told what wusses they are.

I promise you most of your interns were harder on you than I am on my med students. The 2/3 who "get" it don't have any issues. It's that 1/3 who simply don't want to put in a minimum of effort where things get troubling.
 
The moral of the story, step up and be the big stud you think you are. Let the students go eat at a reasonable time every day, even if you don't. Otherwise, you might fall into the d-bag category.

I'm not sure how that's the moral of the story at all. The original question was by a future intern who was chicken about making his med students do DREs. The answer is, integrate them into the team and let them do everything involved in the patients' care. I don't think anybody refuted that. The leaving early, hiding in the library and lunch issues are side issues at best, only pertain to a minority of med students who tend to whine, and there seems to be a clear difference of opinion as to who is supposed to man up.🙄
 
Bingo. Med students ask "to go to the library" but we have no illusions that that's what they are really doing. They are really asking "can I go away from here so that if work comes up you hopefully will do it yourself rather than page me, wait 20 minutes for me to return the page, and another 20 to come back". It's the oldest med student trick in the book. And since residents understand the need to prepare for shelf exams, plus don't want to look like an A-hole, it's hard to simply say no, although after getting burned by a med student or two that doesn't come back, that person will certainly lose the privilege.

False. When my (or my other teammates) go to the library, that's precisely what we're doing. We usually don't ask for this to occur, but we're generally told at least 4 days/week to go study for some time in the afternoon, which is exactly what we do. We're not trying to avoid work, we just can't read in the room where the residents are because there's too much talking, phone conversations, etc going on to study effectively. My residents are also very good about paging us when something comes up with one of our patients, or a new patient arrives.

Sometimes, people are really doing what they say they're going to do.
 
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You're dependent on med students to do your work, so that means there is something wrong with me. So what do they do at non-teaching hospitals? :laugh:

I remember there was a guy on my ICU rotation when I was a student, he was a 4th year and I was a 3rd year. He was a lawyer before med school. I had a respectable clinical background before med school, 7 years as a paramedic. Because of this, I knew hands on/clinical things that other med students didn't. After being able to answer things time and time again that he couldn't; he started to whine. He said it wasn't "fair" that some people had clinical backgrounds and prior experience. This made me want to laugh, just as I am now. It was the same type of response, it is always a problem with someone else!!!!!!!!!

Hey, don't put me the the same class as some whiner just because he also went to law school. Some of us left that field to get away from some of those personalities. I certainly don't begrudge folks bringing skills to the table, and certainly bring my own to the table. I'm not sure why I'm the a-hole just because I'm trying to do what the higher ups at my program ask of me, which is to integrate the med students into the daily intern activities, give them as much of a flavor for what managing a patient involves from beginning to end, and not have them missing in the "library" whenever an attending pops by and says, where are the students. And FWIW, we have had some very bad students, some that certainly wouldn't have passed the rotation where I attended med school (and this isn't just my opinion, but of all the interns in our rotation).

No, I'm not dependent on the med students. In the weeks between rotations, things run just as smoothly without them. However when they are assigned to handle a patient, the higher ups will give me a hard time if I do "their" work. At the same time, I'm not supposed to leave work (my or "their" work) over for the night float people. So that puts me, as intern in a daily bind. I can be quite efficient, but if the med students don't do their part, things won't be done, and I do hear about it. I have to have the med students pulling their weight, even if I have to help it along, because the expectation from the rotation coordination folks is that we integrate them as full weight pulling members of the team, and they check on that. We don't coddle and let folks shadow, like some rotations. They do a lot of cool stuff and a certain amount of the scut that goes along with the patient. Such is life. Not sure how I got painted as the bad guy for basically defending a system I didn't create and that will outlast me and every med student on this board.
 
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False. When my (or my other teammates) go to the library, that's precisely where we're doing. ...

Sometimes, people are really doing what they say they're going to do.

Well that's great if it's true for you, but unfortunately you don't speak for the majority of med students I've worked with. Where I'm at, "going to the library" is the med student catch phrase for "going off the grid 🙂

Again, don't blame me -- I didn't make this system, and when you work with me you get lots of teaching, get to do whatever procedure that comes up, and most of the ones who give a damn seem to appreciate it. The dudes who don't want to even fake some bare level of interest for a month are the ones that have issues.

Everyone in residency has played the med student game. We know you would rather be in bed than pre-rounding at 530am. We know you would like to have a nice relaxing lunchbreak. We know you want time to study and love to get out of there early. We know you might be bound for a totally unrelated specialty. We all have been there. But most of us were smart enough to feign interest and do what we had to do to do well in our rotations, even if it meant spending a few hours hanging out doing things we didn't find particularly educational. There were a few rotations I hated (although for the most part I enjoyed the experiences in med school), but my evaluators were given the impression that I was interested even if they knew I was going into something else. I think it's probably something more med students need to try.
 
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Well that's great if it's true for you, but unfortunately you don't speak for the majority of med students I've worked with. Where I'm at, "going to the library" is the med student catch phrase for "going off the grid 🙂

How do you know? Do you just follow them around to wherever they go? Do you stroll through the library and look for them? Plus, I think "library" is a euphemism here, as it just applies to them going somewhere on hospital property to study. So, just because someone might see them around the hospital (perhaps getting a drink or something in between studying) doesn't mean they're not actually studying. Maybe your school just had a load of crappy med students, but I don't feel like that's all that common everywhere (granted, there are students in every class who just try to get out of everything).
 
I'm not sure how that's the moral of the story at all. The original question was by a future intern who was chicken about making his med students do DREs. The answer is, integrate them into the team and let them do everything involved in the patients' care. I don't think anybody refuted that. The leaving early, hiding in the library and lunch issues are side issues at best, only pertain to a minority of med students who tend to whine, and there seems to be a clear difference of opinion as to who is supposed to man up.🙄

That is an absolutely perfect response. The discussion we were involved in revolved around letting students go to lunch. Not about hiding in the library, DREs or anything else. You don't have a good reply to what I said so you go to those subjects. Good diversion.

I haven't seen a single person here disagree with what I have to say. So who provides a different opinion suggesting I am the one who needs to man up? I'll answer that, nobody. Well, other than you. If you are so efficient without the students then why can't they get a reasonable lunch? :laugh:
 
How do you know? Do you just follow them around to wherever they go? Do you stroll through the library and look for them? ....

First, yes, sometimes we go over to the library to fetch them because if you are nearby it's generally quicker than paging them and waiting for them to page back. Second, it's not uncommon for you to be running around the hospital and happen to come across the students. Third, it's happened that you get a call from the rotation coordinator or chief saying "what's the deal I just saw your med student in the gym -- why aren't they here working" (has actually happened more than once). Fourth, a lot of hospital phones have caller ID so what when med students call you back from locations nowhere near the library you pretty much know they aren't there.

Honestly, I don't really care where they go when it's slow so long as they pull their weight. Too many don't, though.
 
P.S. i'm completely confused about why going to the library means you are trying to duck out of work. I guess back in the early 1900's this could be the case due to lack of technology. I don't know anyone at the hospital that doesn't have a pager or a cell phone. Never had a problem finding a student when there were things to be done.

Plus, 1/3 of your students don't give a crap? I've seen students that aren't interested in a particular specialty, but they still keep up their responsibilities. if 1/3 of your students are truly that terrible, your school has major issues.
 
^^ you did get that post in before mine, about where the students actually are when you page them.
 
I'm not sure how that's the moral of the story at all. The original question was by a future intern who was chicken about making his med students do DREs. The answer is, integrate them into the team and let them do everything involved in the patients' care. I don't think anybody refuted that. The leaving early, hiding in the library and lunch issues are side issues at best, only pertain to a minority of med students who tend to whine, and there seems to be a clear difference of opinion as to who is supposed to man up.🙄

As the "chicken" OP, I have to say I'm actually somewhat glad this discussion turned into what it did. The DRE only meant to serve as an example of an intern-student dilemma. It was a good old hypothetical case so we could have a concrete example to discuss. If I had asked something vague like "how should we treat medical students?" nobody would have had much valuable to say.

Besides that point, what's this constant hangup of yours of med students being whiners and work-shirkers? The whining criticism always especially bothered me--there are plenty of interns and residents who whine just as much or more than anybody else around the hospital! Right now you're whining about how lazy and unprofessional some med students are! Or like central lines, is whining only an intern/resident/attending privilege?

At the risk of coming off as a total d-bag myself now, I have to agree with the poster who said med students sometimes go to the library just to get time away from housestaff like you. It's not the work they're avoiding, it's the sanctimonious attitude from their residents. As in not just you, there are plenty all over the country who act like this and even if it's not out of malice, it makes for quite an unpleasant learning atmosphere.
 
That is an absolutely perfect response. The discussion we were involved in revolved around letting students go to lunch. Not about hiding in the library, DREs or anything else. You don't have a good reply to what I said so you go to those subjects. Good diversion.

I haven't seen a single person here disagree with what I have to say. So who provides a different opinion suggesting I am the one who needs to man up? I'll answer that, nobody. Well, other than you. If you are so efficient without the students then why can't they get a reasonable lunch? :laugh:

First, there are multiple discussions going on here, starting with DREs but also the library and lunch issues. I didn't mean to divert, but it's a lie to suggest that this thread isn't about other than lunch. In fact lunch is but one side issue, the original question posed was by a future resident asking what he should be making his med students do. The lunch stuff came up on the side. My response to this is that when there's time for lunch, med students get to go get lunch. Ones on my team usually get lunch, but often are asked to come back with it to the team room. On particularly bad days, it has not been unheard of for there to not be time for lunch, which is unfortunate, but if it's unavoidable, it's unavoidable.

As for the whole "I haven't heard a single person disagree with what I have to say" you have to remember you are preaching to the choir here. It's a med student board, so of course they are going to say med students should always get a lunch. Why don't you suggest everyone should pay less tuition too and see if anyone disagrees.🙄

You seem to have ignored my point on efficiency. I can do all the work myself just fine. Not an issue of efficiency. But I am requested by the higher ups NOT TO because the med students need to be integrated into the team and manage the patient. But I am also requested to have everything done before night float arrives. So what that means is that the med students have to do their portion of the work, and get it done by the appropriate time. Which may not be something I couldn't bang out fairly easily, but for them it probably could mean having to work through lunch to make the deadline. I'm not sure that me being any more efficient helps things -- it only makes me more frustrated that this portion of the work isn't done yet. So I guess I miss your point about how efficiency plays into this. You are only as efficient as your weakest link, and since the higher ups make the med students be active links in this process, their efficiency often dictates whether we get dug out or not.

It's pretty clear you don't work in a similar situation, don't have the same kind of mandates on you as to how to utilize med students, and the like, so you may want to cool it with the veiled insults at my efficiency or how I'm somehow like some whining lawyer you used to know. And again, asking a group of med students if they ought to get lunch doesn't mean you have a winning argument, it just means you have an easy audience. There was a thread about lunches and the like a while back on SDN and more senior residents weighed in, and it was certainly far more diverse in opinions.
 
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Plus, 1/3 of your students don't give a crap? I've seen students that aren't interested in a particular specialty, but they still keep up their responsibilities. if 1/3 of your students are truly that terrible, your school has major issues.

I agree, and am hoping this isn't the current trend. It's not "my school" FWIW, we just host rotations. If they are the future of medicine we got troubles.
 
I agree, and am hoping this isn't the current trend. It's not "my school" FWIW, we just host rotations. If they are the future of medicine we got troubles.

See this, in a nutshell, is the reason I think that any change in the system of medical training is going to need to be in the form of a major overhaul, rather than a gradual changing of intern/resident/attending attitudes. It's just too easy to fall into the 'these kids today' mentality once it's no longer you that's at that particular level of medical training.
 
As the "chicken" OP, I have to say I'm actually somewhat glad this discussion turned into what it did. The DRE only meant to serve as an example of an intern-student dilemma. It was a good old hypothetical case so we could have a concrete example to discuss. If I had asked something vague like "how should we treat medical students?" nobody would have had much valuable to say.

Besides that point, what's this constant hangup of yours of med students being whiners and work-shirkers? The whining criticism always especially bothered me--there are plenty of interns and residents who whine just as much or more than anybody else around the hospital! Right now you're whining about how lazy and unprofessional some med students are! Or like central lines, is whining only an intern/resident/attending privilege?

At the risk of coming off as a total d-bag myself now, I have to agree with the poster who said med students sometimes go to the library just to get time away from housestaff like you. It's not the work they're avoiding, it's the sanctimonious attitude from their residents. As in not just you, there are plenty all over the country who act like this and even if it's not out of malice, it makes for quite an unpleasant learning atmosphere.

Dude, I get that I'm a popular target on this board, being on the other side of the table, but you need to see what the situation is before you judge. I apologize for calling you chicken, but honestly med students are supposed to do DREs, they shouldn't be optional. You haven't walked a mile in my shoes, but I sure have walked a mile in the typical med students shoes. I may be unfortunate but the percentage of med students who are acting apathetic and shirking their responsibilities and whining about when they can leave in my current program dwarfs anything I came across as a med student. I truly hope they are not indicative of the current crop of third years, and get the sense from some of the discussion that it's not, which is good news. Like I said, about 2/3 are decent, know how to act professionally, and seem to appreciate being taught, getting to do lots of interesting procedures (in my opinion) and at least seem to have an okay time in the rotation. The other third someone didn't get the memo that you ought to at least pretend to be interested, need to get whatever work is assigned to you done (and as I mentioned above, I'm sort of given a mandate to keep them integrated in the work from beginning to end), and not whine about leaving early on a regular basis. Until you are faced with that kind of situation, I suggest you hold off judgment. You will find that very few residents whine in the way med students do, because there's a culture in place and the chiefs put an end to it quickly. Typing on an SDN thread doesn't count as whining, and I don't really think most of what I've written is whining so much as giving you a factual scenario that some of us are in, in response to what I consider a fairly interesting thread (kudos to you) about what med students ought to be "made" to do.
 
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See this, in a nutshell, is the reason I think that any change in the system of medical training is going to need to be in the form of a major overhaul, rather than a gradual changing of intern/resident/attending attitudes. It's just too easy to fall into the 'these kids today' mentality once it's no longer you that's at that particular level of medical training.

Honestly I don't want to indict a whole generation based on a small subsection, but if the system is set up that pretty much everybody in med school get through to residency, it's hard not to acknowledge that if you see a lot of apathetic slackers in the pipeline, this is going to be damaging to the profession. I don't think it's the intern/resident/attending attitudes that are the problem. Certain as a resident you do hear quite a bit from attendings of how things have gone into the crapper since they did away with 120 hour work weeks and the like. But by and large the older sect also acknowledge that they wouldn't even get into med school with the credentials needed today, so it's kind of a wash. My issue is, plain and simple, with folks who show up to a rotation not even willing to pretend it's interesting, important to their evaluations and the like. I mean, even if you aren't going into this field, it should be interesting purely as something you will never ever have the opportunity to do again later in life. That's the way I looked at things -- stuff to tuck away in my background, maybe get a few funny stories about "that time I..." All learning is good, even if it's a big education about every darn piece of paper that needs to get filled out and every phone call that needs to be made to get some person that cannot be saved placed in hospice, while another lucky med student has a patient that needs an LP. Rotations are part interesting, part grin and bear it. Looking back, they actually weren't that bad and you probably could appreciate them a bit more. Some of the interns that rode you actually end up preparing you fairly well for subsequent rotations, some of the ones who let you beg out of things left you in a bad position later.

I think the system actually is pretty clear on the resident side of the table what med students ought to do, which is, pretty much everything they legally are allowed to do. Our residency coordinator folks want us teaching and integrating med students as much as possible, although not quite our hours. Med students, however, come in with very unclear expectations of what they are supposed to be doing, see you as an impediment to study time, and often don't "get" why they are supposed to be doing all this stuff when all they really consider "educational" is the one or two cooler procedures each day. I'm sure part of that is when students come from other hospitals where the rotations are less work oriented, but since about 2/3 "get it" and don't have issues, I have to think it's partly med student dependent as well.
 
Dude, I get that I'm a popular target on this board, being on the other side of the table, but you need to see what the situation is before you judge. I apologize for calling you chicken, but honestly med students are supposed to do DREs, they shouldn't be optional. You haven't walked a mile in my shoes, but I sure have walked a mile in the typical med students shoes. I may be unfortunate but the percentage of med students who are acting apathetic and shirking their responsibilities and whining about when they can leave in my current program dwarfs anything I came across as a med student. I truly hope they are not indicative of the current crop of third years, and get the sense from some of the discussion that it's not, which is good news. Like I said, about 2/3 are decent, know how to act professionally, and seem to appreciate being taught, getting to do lots of interesting procedures (in my opinion) and at least seem to have an okay time in the rotation. The other third someone didn't get the memo that you ought to at least pretend to be interested, need to get whatever work is assigned to you done (and as I mentioned above, I'm sort of given a mandate to keep them integrated in the work from beginning to end), and not whine about leaving early on a regular basis. Until you are faced with that kind of situation, I suggest you hold off judgment. You will find that very few residents whine in this way because there's a culture in place and the chiefs put an end to it quickly. Typing on an SDN thread doesn't count as whining, and I don't really think most of what I've written is whining so much as giving you a factual scenario that some of us are in, in response to what I consider a fairly interesting thread (kudos to you) about what med students ought to be "made" to do.

BTW I wasn't offended about the chicken comment. I appreciate how civil you generally are on here given the level of disagreement that's been popping up. I will try to do my part on that as well.

I don't know where what I'll say next is going to take things but here goes.

I always felt the major problem going on in all this is a basic lack of communication which has become part of the system. I feel the medical culture as you describe it (and it's pretty accurate) discourages anyone in the system from airing their grievances. You could and should be able to call out your underperforming students but that would be very uncomfortable for both parties and probably would get you labeled as abusive. A student who subjectively feels he/she is being treated unfairly should be able to bring it up openly rather than stewing about it (and writing on SDN), but typically is too intimidated to speak up for fear of getting a bad grade and derailing his or her career. The system as I see it not only doesn't support but prevents open lines of communication. Don't you wish you residents could feel free to speak up to your superiors about how their mandates on student contribution hamstring your ability to get work done efficiently? I wonder if this is the reason medicine is so slow to change compared to other fields--nobody feels free to speak up, so problems with the way things are just get swept under the rug for the next generation of doctors to deal with, or further sweep under for the next...
 
It's pretty clear you don't work in a similar situation, don't have the same kind of mandates on you as to how to utilize med students, and the like, so you may want to cool it with the veiled insults at my efficiency or how I'm somehow like some whining lawyer you used to know. And again, asking a group of med students if they ought to get lunch doesn't mean you have a winning argument, it just means you have an easy audience. There was a thread about lunches and the like a while back on SDN and more senior residents weighed in, and it was certainly far more diverse in opinions.

You have no idea what situation I work in, so don't assume anything. I have to cool it with veiled insults but you can go and outright call the OP a chicken for this or that? I seem to even remember you telling me that I am the one that needs to "man up" and that crap came from nowhere :laugh:

I can't suggest that if the workload is overwhelming you that it may just be you?

As far as the lunches go.. I learned my leadership in the Marine Corps. I've seen great leaders and poor ones. The great leaders always had things covered even in the worst conditions, they found a way to make things work with what they were given. The poor leaders had those below them in ****ty situations, i.e. students not getting lunch. If you are unable to handle what your attending asks and still be reasonable with students, then I feel bad for all involved. You are bound to have unhappy attendings and students.
 
You have no idea what situation I work in, so don't assume anything. I have to cool it with veiled insults but you can go and outright call the OP a chicken for this or that? I seem to even remember you telling me that I am the one that needs to "man up" and that crap came from nowhere :laugh:

I can't suggest that if the workload is overwhelming you that it may just be you?
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Um, I didn't tell you to "man up". I said we have a difference of opinion as to whether it's the resident or med student who has to man up and get the work done. You misunderstood and somehow took it personally.

Again, I think I explained the efficiency argument already (several times). I can do all the work myself. Would love to, actually, but I am not given that option. So when I finish all the work I'm allowed to do by the higher ups, and still have to prod the med students to get their share done each day, no that doesn't suggest that the workload is overwhelming to me, it suggests that there's a weak link in the chain. So basically I bang out what I have to do, then tend to put out brush fires throughout the day while trying to make sure the med students are doing their parts. Some do, others not so much. If they are any good, there's going to be time for lunch. If not, then maybe we sit down and get the stuff done and nobody gets time for lunch. I think perhaps it's a cultural thing with the program I'm in. FWIW, these med students have rotated with most of my co-residents and the comments are pretty universal to what I've described above. Read into it whatever you like, but I'm telling you that based on your comments, you are not coming from a similar situation. Be thankful of that.
 
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...Don't you wish you residents could feel free to speak up to your superiors about how their mandates on student contribution hamstring your ability to get work done efficiently? I wonder if this is the reason medicine is so slow to change compared to other fields--nobody feels free to speak up, so problems with the way things are just get swept under the rug for the next generation of doctors to deal with, or further sweep under for the next...

In terms of the mandates on student contribution hamstringing my ability, sure it would be nice to be able to finish up quicker, and they do slow you down, particularly the bad ones. But honestly since I have to be there until sign out anyhow, the only thing I lose by being hampered with med students is time to veg and eat lunch, and the ability not to screw over the night float team (which at some point is me, and what comes around goes around). So no, I probably wouldn't talk to the higher ups about the difficulties caused by med students as part of the team. They have to learn, are paying lots of money to learn, and I'm happy to teach and happy to help them do their "job", and happy to get them into whatever procedure is happening with their patient. I have no problem with that. They need to meet me half way, and show some interest in getting the job done though.

I do think the communication of what's expected of med students ought to come from higher up and not so much from me, because I don't need to be the a-hole making them do work and scut, when in fact if it were truly up to me a third of them could go home after rounds and I couldn't care less what they do except for the fact that I'm required to have them doing what I'm making them do. When a lot of work comes my way and a chief says get the med students to help you get it done, that's what I'm going to do. If that makes me maliciious or abusive, I think some folks are going to have a very tough time in residency. Because I'm the laid back one compared to my bosses. And I think that's not too uncommon. I'm still close enough to med school to sympathize and to know what folks might find interesting, and I'm happy to help med students get into whatever procedure is going on, etc. But at the same time some of the expectations for med students are explained to me but apparently not to the students, which makes me the guy overworking them, even though it came from above.
 
At this point I can:

a) Do the rectal myself. You, however, as an eager student want to be involved and are more than willing to do it. I would be more than happy to let you do it because I don't enjoy doing them anyway but don't ask you because I'm afraid you'll feel pressured to say yes so I won't ding you on the eval, even though you really want to say no and I'm so busy with other things that I'll never remember that time you refused to do a rectal anyway.

b) Ask you if you want to do it. This time you are someone who is revolted by the idea of rectal exams and feel I am using my power and implied threat of a bad eval to get you to do my most unpleasant work for me. But you say yes so it won't affect your grade. In truth I am sincerely trying to get you involved and will never use it as some kind of way of judging your performance.

c) Ask if you want to do it but emphasize that it won't affect you negatively if you decline. However I was once a student too and would NEVER fall for that line, so effectively this is like option "(b*)" for lack of a better term.

So...what should I do? Or better put, what would you as an M3 prefer I do in a situation like this?

There is also a choice d), which is - ask the med student, before you say anything, on what they think is going on with the patient, and what the next treatment step should be. Give them a few minutes to think it over and talk about it. And then, tell them that you'll be getting ready to do the DRE, so send them to get supplies while you write the order and let the nurse and the patient know. Then, just do the DRE yourself, unless the med student pipes up with, "Hey, do you want me to do the DRE?" That way, since the med student has discussed the treatment option and gotten the supplies ready, he has been "involved," without feeling pressured. This method is probably also more educational than saying "This patient needs a DRE" before shoving a FOBT card and a bottle of developer in his hands.

Make sense? 🙂

Dude, I get that I'm a popular target on this board, being on the other side of the table, but you need to see what the situation is before you judge. I apologize for calling you chicken, but honestly med students are supposed to do DREs, they shouldn't be optional.

As awful as this will be to say, I sympathize with L2D. Some of the med students we have had have been wonderful, but some have just been appalling. Some have no common sense, some have zero sense of how to act like an adult, and some are just...beyond words.

The phrase "I am HERE to be TAUGHT, NOT SCUTTED," may have sounded good when you're a med student, it sounds somewhat whiny and self-absorbed when you're a resident. As an intern, to be honest, most of your time is spent....doing a lot of scut. Making phone calls, doing the work that the nurse is either too busy or too lazy to do, doing crap for your patients because no one else wants to do them (but it has to be done)....there will be a lot of times when you walk out of the hospital feeling like you did a lot of "stuff," but you can't recall really having learned anything over the past week.

And, as an intern, it can be a bit of a double-edged sword. Send the med student to get lunch and ask him to get something for you makes it sound like you're treating the med student like the office boy, being sent out to get lattes for everyone. Don't send the med student to get lunch, and it sounds like you're starving him for no good reason.

And, to be fair, you should NOT have to tell an MS3 (who is probably at least a 25 year old ADULT and should know better) not to linger over a 45 minute long lunch when everything is so crazy...so I find it a little puzzling that it should be "spelled out" that the med students should "only take 15 minutes" to grab lunch when told that they can eat. While I know that many MS3s have never held a real job before, that just shows a lack of good common sense.
 
Hey L2D, would you be able to tell us what kinds of work your students actually do? All this talk about time for lunch, no time for lunch would make a lot more sense if we knew how much and what they were responsible for.

As for your chiefs and attendings and their philosophy on education, that varies place to place. Some sound like yours, where medical students are there to work and if they happen to learn something too, great. Others are very protective of their students and don't want them doing anything that isn't directly related to learning something. Under your philosophy you would probably call them coddled. Students hate to be called coddled; first of all they think they are not, and second of all the expectations of them are set by the clerkship director and don't want to be blamed or looked down on just because the clerkship director has their own opinion on what they should be doing there.
 
P.S. i'm completely confused about why going to the library means you are trying to duck out of work. I guess back in the early 1900's this could be the case due to lack of technology. I don't know anyone at the hospital that doesn't have a pager or a cell phone. Never had a problem finding a student when there were things to be done.

The idea isn't to be unreachable. The hope is that out of sight = out of mind and that if they aren't sitting there in front of the intern, the intern in his work-frenzy will not think about the student and just do the job.

Dude, I get that I'm a popular target on this board, being on the other side of the table, but you need to see what the situation is before you judge. I apologize for calling you chicken, but honestly med students are supposed to do DREs, they shouldn't be optional. You haven't walked a mile in my shoes, but I sure have walked a mile in the typical med students shoes. I may be unfortunate but the percentage of med students who are acting apathetic and shirking their responsibilities and whining about when they can leave in my current program dwarfs anything I came across as a med student. I truly hope they are not indicative of the current crop of third years, and get the sense from some of the discussion that it's not, which is good news. Like I said, about 2/3 are decent, know how to act professionally, and seem to appreciate being taught, getting to do lots of interesting procedures (in my opinion) and at least seem to have an okay time in the rotation. The other third someone didn't get the memo that you ought to at least pretend to be interested, need to get whatever work is assigned to you done (and as I mentioned above, I'm sort of given a mandate to keep them integrated in the work from beginning to end), and not whine about leaving early on a regular basis. Until you are faced with that kind of situation, I suggest you hold off judgment. You will find that very few residents whine in the way med students do, because there's a culture in place and the chiefs put an end to it quickly. Typing on an SDN thread doesn't count as whining, and I don't really think most of what I've written is whining so much as giving you a factual scenario that some of us are in, in response to what I consider a fairly interesting thread (kudos to you) about what med students ought to be "made" to do.


FWIW, and I'll freely admit I don't often agree with many of your opinions, I'm completely on board with you on this. While BigD is right in that you should take care of your subordinates, the reality is that occasionally things will get busy and din-din time might get delayed. Also, the less-enthusiastic/slacker students are the ones most likely to be behind in their work(causing missed meals), they are most likely to be whiney about not getting lunch, AND they are most likely to take advantage of the opportunity to eat by turning a quick bite into an hourlong sitdown meal.

Most med students are not like this. The ones that are ruin it for everyone. However, I do think that within the first week of a rotation you should have the studs figured out and be able to adjust your strictness level accordingly. One size fits all approach to student management is lazy. I'm not saying you do that, I'm just saying 🙂

Finally, I do think there may be some differences of opinion based simply on what specialty you are in and what setting. As mentioned above, if L2D is describing students on a trauma rotation at cook county and BigD is describing students on a psych rotation in a 10 bed ward, expectations will be different as a matter of course 🙂
 
Hey L2D, would you be able to tell us what kinds of work your students actually do? All this talk about time for lunch, no time for lunch would make a lot more sense if we knew how much and what they were responsible for. ...

I think I already aluded to this in various posts above, but things med students reasonably could be asked to do: (1) follow their patients' vitals and labs, (2) write up H&Ps, do physical exams (which will be repeated by the residents) (3) take a stab at writing up admission orders, discharge orders, consults, (4) write out the perscriptions for residents signature, (5) present patients to the attendings on rounds, (6) DREs, blood draws, placing IVs, placing foleys, placing NG tubes (yes I know at some places the nurses do all of these, but it's helpful to the med student for residency to be able to do all of these things), (6) removal of central lines (but not placement of them), (7) when the opportunity arises, med students with supervision should be allowed to place A-lines, do minor I&Ds, suture up lacerations, LPs, and arthro/paracentesis (and maybe thoracentesis). In addition, med students can be expected to (8) chase nurses, radiology, the lab, the blood bank, social work to find out what's going on with their patients and why things haven't happened yet. (9) Med students also should keep track of when a radiology reading, study result, micro result or path result comes back on one of their patients. These are all things reasonable for med students to do. If you come out of a rotation waiting for the resident to give you work on an assignment by assignment basis, you may end up with a disproportionate amount of scut. If instead you take ownership of your patient, you probably get a better balance of scut and non-scut. I'm sure there are additional tasks that med students are asked to do that I'm forgetting, but I think this is a reasonable list, pretty similar to that which I was asked to do as a med student, and one that will well prepare a med student for residency, and if they do all of these things, they will know how to manage a patient and should learn a lot.

Things that med students aren't allowed to do where I am are (1) central lines, (2) chest tubes, (3) dictations. Of course 4th year sub-Is will be expected to do a bit more than this, and do a bit more in terms of differentials and the like, but I think this covers the basics.
 
I was going to type a response.. I don't even care.. L2D is starting in on me in a different thread. I'll go set him straight there. Won't be hard to do😀
 
Hey all,

I was one of you guys once. Now I'm head and shoulders above as I grab my long coat and get to toy with you as would a cat to a ball of yarn...

Seriously, though, I want your input into things I can do to be a good intern to you. It's too much work for everybody to be really generic here, so I'm going to present you a case and you tell me what I should do.

Patient in for, say, pneumonia, has a drop in HCT. No visible source of bleeding, not hemodilutional. Has history of OA and has been taking lots of ibuprofen for a number of months. Nurse thinks stools may have been dark and tarry but wasn't already ordered to sample for blood so didn't. We want to make sure it's not an upper GI bleed so we want do a rectal and guaiac the stool. (Actually if you're worried about a true bleed you won't bother guaiacing because you don't care about occult blood but that's neither here nor there for now.) At this point I can:

a) Do the rectal myself. You, however, as an eager student want to be involved and are more than willing to do it. I would be more than happy to let you do it because I don't enjoy doing them anyway but don't ask you because I'm afraid you'll feel pressured to say yes so I won't ding you on the eval, even though you really want to say no and I'm so busy with other things that I'll never remember that time you refused to do a rectal anyway.

b) Ask you if you want to do it. This time you are someone who is revolted by the idea of rectal exams and feel I am using my power and implied threat of a bad eval to get you to do my most unpleasant work for me. But you say yes so it won't affect your grade. In truth I am sincerely trying to get you involved and will never use it as some kind of way of judging your performance.

c) Ask if you want to do it but emphasize that it won't affect you negatively if you decline. However I was once a student too and would NEVER fall for that line, so effectively this is like option "(b*)" for lack of a better term.

So...what should I do? Or better put, what would you as an M3 prefer I do in a situation like this?

Aight, some general suggestions for residents/attendings, etc. or anyone else who has a hand at teaching, grading, and evaluating medical students:

1.) Make the student a part of the team. As said before in this thread, outright assigning things for the student to do during the day is the best bet here. Particularly when working with multiple students, delegating tasks keeps everyone in line... if someone can't deliver with ALL this in place, THEN ding them.

2.) Do not compare the student to previous students you've worked with. This is just terrible form, all around. Recently, a chief resident filled out my evaluation (gave me Honors), but gave me a few suggestions on how to work more "effectively". (S)he did this by pointing out another student in my class, and just how much "better" that student did things than me. What the chief resident did not realize was that the particular student (s)he was describing as the paragon of clinical excellence 🙄 actually got a "Pass" on the rotation (straight from the student's mouth) - clearly lacking in other areas, and no this was not one of their first rotations. Just because a student is "fun" to work with and gives you a warm fuzzy feeling doesn't mean they are "better" than another student. Comparing me to someone else who didn't work under my circumstances is irrelevant to me, doesn't help me, and only makes you look like a douche in the end.

3.) Do not praise the student who knows the answer to something only because they pulled out their iPhone or Pocket Encyclopedia or read it off an article printout or whatever else. They aren't proving anything except that they can use a search engine or index. But you can praise them for showing initiative to look things up, etc. Some of us go raw without this iPhone crap and can try to critically think through something based on what we've learned / read... please understand this.

4.) Reprimand a student who interrupts the other student answering a question, or a student who answers the question that wasn't asked to them. I think this one is crucial, and I certainly plan on doing it when I become a resident. Please put these jerks in their place. I have had the privilege of working with 2-3 students like this, it is downright awful and makes us all look really bad.

5.) Do not patronize me, the medical student. "OMG you made the photocopy for me? Excellent job! Best ever!"... "Excellent job listening to that patient's abdomen!!"... "Amazing job on clicking SEND on the orders on the computer chart system!" ... "Great job putting that gauze on the wound!" 😱 God I need a barfbag. Save the praise for when I really do something good, like showing up early, staying late, making a good finding on my patient, or taking care of business... I'm not 5 and this isn't Feel Good Happy Hills Summer Camp. Thx.

6.) All in all, joke with me, laugh with me, get to know me. Understand my situation. I want to do well... so don't take my willingness to work hard the wrong way... I'm just here to do my best, and you should be too. Don't punish me for working hard and doing the right thing. Smile. Pull me aside if I'm doing some minor thing wrong, don't embarrass me in front of the entire team. Be nice to patients and set a good example for me. Teach me. Ask me questions. Learn my name (first AND last). Show me something cool. Act your age... I am not impressed by your lax attitude, crass jokes, or use of 4-letter words. You're a doctor, act the part.
 
...Do not compare the student to previous students you've worked with. This is just terrible form, all around. Recently, a chief resident filled out my evaluation (gave me Honors), but gave me a few suggestions on how to work more "effectively". (S)he did this by pointing out another student in my class, and just how much "better" that student did things than me. What the chief resident did not realize was that the particular student (s)he was describing as the paragon of clinical excellence 🙄 actually got a "Pass" on the rotation (straight from the student's mouth) - clearly lacking in other areas, and no this was not one of their first rotations. Just because a student is "fun" to work with and gives you a warm fuzzy feeling doesn't mean they are "better" than another student. Comparing me to someone else who didn't work under my circumstances is irrelevant to me, doesn't help me, and only makes you look like a douche in the end....

I don't think you should ever compare a student to another by name -- that's poor form. But in any evaluation you have to separate out better from worse by definition. So you really have to decide -- this one is good, this one is not good, this one is average based on those you've seen. There's no real way around that IMHO. Otherwise the only basis for comparison is to compare to yourself, and everybody holds themselves in higher regard than can be objective.

Now as to your example, the dude the chief held as your "paragon of excellence" but only got a pass in the rotation doesn't really smack of inconsistency to me. This is really simply the nature of how subjective grading works. You are going to be a super star in some people's eyes, and average in others, and that doesn't mean either is wrong, or that in your scenario the chief is wrong. In most rotations, some portion of the grade comes from residents, some from the attending or rotation coordinator, and some from the shelf. So it's totally possible that someone is great to work with to the residents, not too impressive to the attendings (who simply see a smaller window), and awful on the shelf. (Actually this isn't an uncommon situation for some med students each year). So yeah, I can totally see how in theory your chief might rate someone as awesome who could end up with a grade substantially lower than awesome. Doesn't really mean this guy doesn't know how to be awesome in terms of resident interaction -- in fact he does and should be emulated on that count. But find a different person to emulate for the presentations and attending interaction, and do better than he on the shelf. I think it was Bruce Lee who used to preach that you take that which works and discard the rest (when describing how he created his own style of Karate from bits and pieces of other martial arts disciplines). Same is true for rotations. Even the dude who gets the "pass" might be doing something right that you can learn from.
 

To be clear, the example I gave there was to point out that comparing students by name to ME, another student, while talking in person, is inappropriate. Of course, grading students involves comparing them to ones you previously worked with. But pitting them against eachother, which is essentially what I am referring to, is not okay. As another example, I heard accounts from other students who had my residents on a different rotation earlier this year, where the resident repeatedly asked them: "Do you know Deferoxamine? Oh he was awesome, he really was..." and so on...

What I was saying in the example is that it's both awkward and unfair to 1.) me, and 2.) the other student whose name is brought up.
 
1. My soap box now is a direct result of not saying anything then. I actaully would go to the bathroom to eat a power bar so as to not look weak - aka needing food between 5am and 4pm after being in the OR/ on my feet seeing pts in every waking second between then. A 30 sec lunch break while using the bathroom. I NEVER asked to go eat.

yea i dont get this either... i had brought some snacks with me but i felt weird about eating in front of ppl. as if eating is seen as a weakness. and where i was shadowing people prided themselves on "oh i'm so busy i dont get to eat dinner at all during my nights hifts" - duh it's as easy as carrying a power bar with you. and i seriously feel like i have to sneak into the bathroom next time i want to eat something in my pocket. it's ridiculous.
 
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