Help me out- which lab would you choose?

[Lucy Woperhit]

I have two different research opportunities available to me starting in Jan 2014.

Lab 1:
The PI is young and very ambitious. She mostly does organic synthesis, but she is trying to branch out into biology (with chemical applications), which is what I am more interested in (I am not interested in organic synthesis, at all). The PI is letting me design my own project and run it as independently as I am capable of (so long as it falls under the general research purpose of the lab). My day to day mentor would be a graduate student in the lab--- he is the only student that is doing biochemistry research. I am really excited to have a chance to be independent in the lab, but obviously I will still need help with techniques and experimental design. This is where I am worried, because after meeting with the graduate student, I got the impression that he is reluctant to help me, since my project won't be attached to his, so there's no gain for him out of the situation. Because everyone else is doing synthesis, there are no other people in the lab that I can turn to for advice if I need to.

Lab 2:
PI is older, and more established, and runs a genetics / biology lab. I would have to work under a graduate student with less independence than in Lab 1- I'd probably have a mini-project but not be able to be much involved in the experimental design and scientific process. I am more interested in the research the lab conducts , and the PI and the graduate student are both great and have good track records for mentoring students.

I just feel that the independence that the PI in Lab 1 is giving me is something that is hard to turn down, although I think I would enjoy working with the people in Lab 2 more, and I would learn more in Lab 2 from the people, whereas in Lab 1, I would have to teach myself a lot of techniques/methods. Help! Which lab do you think I should join, and why?

Edit: I have ~1.5 years of experience working in lab (but never got to have my own project) and eventually quit my old lab due to things falling apart.

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[acceptedMD18]

The people you work with are pretty much always the most important part of whether you'll enjoy a job. The fact that you also like the research goals of Lab 2 more makes this a no-brainer. Independence is not always a good thing, especially when you're just starting out in research. I could see getting $ for your project in lab 1 being tough when the PI says "well that's nice, but does it really fit with what we're trying to do here?"

 

[nemo123]

Do you know if the PI/grad student is willing to give you independence in lab #2 eventually? I would have picked number 1, if it hadn't been that you don't know much about synthesis and your project would be completely different from what everyone else is doing.

Even though PI#2 is more established, you say he's a good mentor for students. I think that's enough to seal the deal as long as he makes an effort to get to know you. Some established PIs don't care about undergrads and probably don't even know the names of the undergrads in their labs are anyway.

 

[Lucy Woperhit]

The people you work with are pretty much always the most important part of whether you'll enjoy a job. The fact that you also like the research goals of Lab 2 more makes this a no-brainer. Independence is not always a good thing, especially when you're just starting out in research. I could see getting $ for your project in lab 1 being tough when the PI says "well that's nice, but does it really fit with what we're trying to do here?"

I should mention that I do have fairly extensive research experience, so picking up new techniques and protocols should be pretty easy for me. However I haven't had a chance to really run my own project. I previously worked in a lab for 2 years, mastered all the techniques, became really good at working with my hands, but not so much with my brain. I decided to leave when the PI refused to let me become more independent due to funding issues and the project falling apart...I am sick of being a lab monkey and that's why I'm still holding onto Lab 1, although the research doesn't align well with my interests.

I do think PI 2 will give me independence based on the conversations I've had with him. Just not as much independence like in Lab 1, maybe starting out at 50 and then ending up at 75%? But just a feeling, I will never have total autonomy over the work, because the graduate student is going to be the head of all.

 

[kyamh]

Definitely lab 2. You will have the chance to distinguish yourself and gain more independence and intellectual input as you gain the PI's and graduate student's trust. Your priority should be getting the best mentorship and education you can. Lab one sounds a little like jumping into the deep end with little experience and little direction (especially since the PI is not established in the work you want to do).

Edit: just saw your last post where you say you have lots of experience....I would still go to the lab where you are interested in the work.

 

[lalalapartay012]

I say lab 2, as well. If you get along well enough with the grad student, I think eventually you will gain independence. Make it clear that this is something that you would want. For example, later down in your research career, perhaps you two could talk about something that you two are interested in investigating, and then you can maybe attempt to come up with the hypothesis/experimental design before talking it over and getting it cleared by the graduate student. That way, you are pretty much independent, but at the same time, still get mentored/a sense of direction.

 

[nemo123]

I should mention that I do have fairly extensive research, so picking up new techniques and protocols should be pretty easy for me. However I haven't had a chance to really run my own project. I previously worked in a lab for 2 years, mastered all the techniques, became really good at working with my hands, but not so much with my brain. I decided to leave when the PI refused to let me become more independent due to funding issues and the project falling apart...I am sick of being a lab monkey and that's why I'm still holding onto Lab 1, although the research doesn't align well with my interests.

I do think PI 2 will give me independence based on the conversations I've had with him. Just not as much independence like in Lab 1, maybe starting out at 50 and then ending up at 75%? But just a feeling, I will never have total autonomy over the work, because the graduate student is going to be the head of all.

I think you should ask PI#2 outright if you can eventually get your own project or at least a side project related to your grad student's project or at least do experiments by yourself without having to consult with your grad student all the time (i.e. have your grad student tell your what you're going to do for the day). I don't think it's absolutely necessary to start your own project from scratch as long as you get a chance to test some ideas related to the project you're going to be working on.

 

[Lucy Woperhit]

Thanks for the input everyone! PI 2 has said that after 1 or 2 semesters in the lab, I should start to become more independent... but if I am planning to apply to medical school in 1.5 years (so matriculation in 2016)... then I'll only have 1 semester of "quality" research where I got to spearhead my own project, where as in Lab 1 I'll have 1.5 years of that independence. Thoughts?

 

[kyamh]

Thanks for the input everyone! PI 2 has said that after 1 or 2 semesters in the lab, I should start to become more independent... but if I am planning to apply to medical school in 1.5 years (so matriculation in 2016)... then I'll only have 1 semester of "quality" research where I got to spearhead my own project, where as in Lab 1 I'll have 1.5 years of that independence. Thoughts?

I think that the PI gave you a canned response - that's what you say to all undergrads when you aren't sure how competent they are going to be. I think this PI is open to the idea of giving you more independence and the exact timing will depend on how well you perform the jobs you are assigned, how much time and effort you invest in the lab, and how quickly you start doing things like reading up on the relevant literature to propose your own project.

 

[nemo123]

I think that the PI gave you a canned response - that's what you say to all undergrads when you aren't sure how competent they are going to be. I think this PI is open to the idea of giving you more independence and the exact timing will depend on how well you perform the jobs you are assigned, how much time and effort you invest in the lab, and how quickly you start doing things like reading up on the relevant literature to propose your own project.

Agree with this. I would suggest that once you think you have a handle of the project and the techniques in this lab that you start talking with your PI about working more independently immediately. You have to be proactive about your career. Your PI doesn't gain anything from being nice to you and reaching a hand out to you honestly. But you still have your career ahead of you, so you try to do everything in your power to work independently when you think you are ready. That's a piece of advice I got from one of the techs I worked with during high school. She was right.

Something that might help expedite that process would be to apply for a fellowship in your university that give funding for doing your own project. You also always tell your PIs about your ideas for a side project related to the one you will have worked on with your grad student. I used to do it all the time (even if my PI used to shoot all my ideas down only to have a postdoc in the lab suggest the same experiment again like a month later to the PI and have the PI tell the postdoc that it's a good idea to do it. UGH. This has happened like 8 times to me seriously.)

 

[NuttyEngDude]

Also voting for lab#2 and agree with what everyone else has been saying.

 

[Lucy Woperhit]

I forgot to add some more information, sorry wrote my original post in a rush--- PI 1 has had several papers out... on 1 of them, the first and second authors were both undergraduates. On the other paper, an undergraduate was 2nd author after the graduate student. I do believe these undergrads were also very independent in the lab, BUT they worked on organic synthesis. And to me it seems that it's easier to churn out papers for synthesis research.

PI 2, I think has also some undergraduates listed on papers, but they were 5th or 6th on papers that had 7-8 authors. I understand that publications shouldn't matter that yet, but this leads back to the whole independence thing. Also the graduate student in Lab 2 is only a 2nd year and has not created a hypothesis for her grand project yet and is still collecting data to see if she can formulate any ideas. I'm not sure of the risk involved in working with a 2nd year...I've only worked with post-docs in my previous lab, and they were all way more experienced than the other grad students in the lab. What do you all think?

 

[listener23]

Choose which ever lab you fill can get you published fastest.

 

[kyamh]

OP, since literally everyone has been telling you to go to lab #2 and you have come back multiple times with reasons why lab #1 is a contender it seems as though you already have a pretty clear favorite

 

[nemo123]

I forgot to add some more information, sorry wrote my original post in a rush--- PI 1 has had several papers out... on 1 of them, the first and second authors were both undergraduates. On the other paper, an undergraduate was 2nd author after the graduate student. I do believe these undergrads were also very independent in the lab, BUT they worked on organic synthesis. And to me it seems that it's easier to churn out papers for synthesis research.

PI 2, I think has also some undergraduates listed on papers, but they were 5th or 6th on papers that had 7-8 authors. I understand that publications shouldn't matter that yet, but this leads back to the whole independence thing. Also the graduate student in Lab 2 is only a 2nd year and has not created a hypothesis for her grand project yet and is still collecting data to see if she can formulate any ideas. I'm not sure of the risk involved in working with a 2nd year...I've only worked with post-docs in my previous lab, and they were all way more experienced than the other grad students in the lab. What do you all think?

It sounds like you might be doing some scut work for the grad student in lab #2 since she's working on assembling everything for her qualifying exam. You'll still learn a lot from her. Do you know what the lab environment is like in lab #2? I've worked on postdocs' and techs' projects and stuff, but pretty much for anything data related that I got, I sent them to the PI so I got a lot of interaction with the PI.

Also, I'm sure for lab #1, a ton of work went into writing that paper (even if it's chemical synthesis). 1.5 years (what you have left) is somewhat too short to finish all the experiments required to write a decent paper for a project that's going to be more bio related. If your project falls apart in lab #1, there will be no pub... On the other hand, the grad student in lab #2 will have to graduate eventually so there should be some kind of pub coming along the way.

 

[CyberMaxx]

kyamh and nemo123 have given really good advice. I would add that if PI #2 is very established in his field, he/she could be a particularly good mentor for two specific reasons:

1. If he has been very successful in science he likely has a certain way of thinking or certain characteristics which make him so. Learning what these are and how to emulate them would be very useful.

2. If he is successful and established he will have built a great network which, as you get to know him better, will start to benefit you. For example, my boss has a good reputation in his field and has a handful of former students well placed in academia around the country. As I've been applying to medical schools he has put in personal calls to his buddies/students on my behalf. This type of networking can only help.

 

[Lucy Woperhit]

OP, since literally everyone has been telling you to go to lab #2 and you have come back multiple times with reasons why lab #1 is a contender it seems as though you already have a pretty clear favorite

no, no, just trying to play devil's advocate against myself! Lab 2 it is!

 

[deleted393595]

Edit: Lab 2 based on interest.